$700 Billion bailout package???? Are they that stupid?

[SUBMAN1]

Am I the only one that has an issue with this stupid idea? Our government is obviously screwed up beyond believe to even think of this idea!

And for what are we doing this exactly? We need some bank failures. I'd let the economy dip for a bit to let these banks feel the sting of stupidity.

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way. With that, goes the morals since every man is left to his own devices to create his own morals (Chaos). 'No' morals is the result. Greed rules. When greed rules, you have issues. One being the lenders greed to shell out loans that they know are extremely risky. The other is on the consumer side in that the consumer is greedy and buys more house than they can afford to try and make a buck.

Welcome to our declining world. You can't save it either without a standard moral base and that only comes from one place. This is a world with a 'lack of standards' in the morals area, which ultimately leads to all the fighting you see throughout the world and and all the problems as well. Think of what a military would be like without standards? Now think of a world without god, which leads to many problems such as we are seeing.

Now watch the Atheists frothing mouths fling wide open! This will be entertaining. Problem is guys, if Darwin couldn't find a way to incorporate morals (let alone helping others with no personal gain) into his theories, neither can you (Two flaws in his theories right there that can debunk all of them outright some day). So tough luck beating that one back! :smug:

-S

[UnderseaLcpl]

WTF:-?

[UnderseaLcpl]

Am I the only one that has an issue with this stupid idea? Our government is obviously screwed up beyond believe to even think of this idea!

No. There are a lot of use who have an issue with it. There has been a lot of public sentiment against the bailouts. I'm close to either a) moving somewhere else or B) revolting because of it.

And for what are we doing this exactly? We need some bank failures. I'd let the economy dip for a bit to let these banks feel the sting of stupidity.

That does not encompass the whole issue. The reason these particular bank failures are going to hurt us so much is because federal backing of said banks and financial institutions allows them to make high-risk investments that private banks would not. I agree that they should fail, and that the economy will suffer because of it. What I doubt is that this will change anything. Once th U.S. recovers (more or less) from this fiscal crisis, it will probably pursue the same policy, and fail again. But that's politics. People want stuff for free, no surprise there. They want the State to give it to them. Many of them do not realize how this damages the economic system over time, so when their particular bank, which they foolishly invested in fails, they raise hue and cry, demanding that the state take action.
Ironically, many of these people do not vote, but legislators listen to their pleas to stay in office. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so to speak.


Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way. With that, goes the morals since every man is left to his own devices to create his own morals (Chaos). 'No' morals is the result. Greed rules. When greed rules, you have issues. One being the lenders greed to shell out loans that they know are extremely risky. The other is on the consumer side in that the consumer is greedy and buys more house than they can afford to try and make a buck.

As a libertarian I can't totally agree with that. Darwinism exists in both sociopolitical and moral spheres as well as nature (of course) and economics.
You cannot legislate or force people to conform to a certain set of morals. No nation in the history of mankind has ever succeded at that. It simply cannot be done.

But what you can do is let those with poor morals, and poor competitive(greedy) practices fail. As long as competition is preserved the consumers will not stand for harmful business practices. They simply vote out the offending entity with their dollars. Some suffer from those type of businesses. Caveat Emptor. It is up to those of us who believe in helping others to shoulder their debt at our expense.
Isn't that the Christian way?

Welcome to our declining world. You can't save it either without a standard moral base and that only comes from one place. This is a world with a 'lack of standards' in the morals area, which ultimately leads to all the fighting you see throughout the world and and all the problems as well. Think of what a military would be like without standards? Now think of a world without god, which leads to many problems such as we are seeing.

We already know what militaries without standards are like. They run rampant all over the world. Arguably, they have for most of history. Just look at Africa.

I would not argue that are world is declining, but it is merely following a cycle. People make the same decisions over and over again. History repeats itself. It isn't like we've never seen a world-leading superpower fighting for its life and facing economic disaster that eventually sparks a cataclysmic war before.

Don't forget that at one time there was a world that knew nothing but God (or whatever deities) and people suffered greatly. Even within the Catholic domains people were subjected to indescribable tortures and deprivation.
What finally freed the Western world from religious domination was the introduction of religious competition. The 95 theses changed the future of the Western world forever.

When you say God I assume that you mean God in the Christian context, but do not forget that many other cultures have a god, or gods, or whatever. Islamic extremism is fueled by a belief in a "one true god". Historically, Christianity has fallen into this theocratic trap as well. (ahem, Inquisition, Puritanism, Flagellants)

I will not argue that our world is heading into another historical low point. Every time a world leading nation makes irresponsible fiscal decision it leads to war. And every time, the wars get worse. And as such, the consequences get worse.
We are in the 11th hour now but the U.S. can still avoid this downfall and maybe help the rest of the world by strenthening the world economy via reduction of governemtn and reintroduction of a lightly-regulated private sector.

There is not, and never will be a 'standard moral base'. If I see a person who seems immoral, I will try to show them the Christian way. If they refute it, oh well, I tried. I cannot force my beliefs upon them and I doubt any religion (save Islamic Extremists, off the top of my head) would approve.



Now watch the Atheists frothing mouths fling wide open! This will be entertaining. Problem is guys, if Darwin couldn't find a way to incorporate morals (let alone helping others with no personal gain) into his theories, neither can you (Two flaws in his theories right there that can debunk all of them outright some day). So tough luck beating that one back! :smug:

Easily beaten back. Friendship, social respect, power, love, these are all resources like any other. People compete over resources, just as animals do.
There is no real altruism , but people invest in things they want. Sometimes, they choose to invest in other people.
Who has ever invested time and money in a partner they did not want to form a relationship with unless it was out of fear of social repurcussions?
Who has ever given to charity and did not feel better for doing so?
Some people even pay for companionship in the form of escort services or prostitutes, but they would not do this unless they felt it was worth it.

People with good morals are more likely to value other people and their sentiments more than money or power, that much is true.

But no matter what kind of moral system one might try to impose, there will always be an elite. An elite that is willing to bend the system to their own ends, and justify to themselves the reason for doing so. Sometimes all they need to do is think of themselves as elite to become plutocratic tyrants. History is full of examples.

I would never advocate the merging of state and religion in any way, for any purpose because of these dangers, and that includes moral legislation.


That being said, I would certainly advocate legislation that prohibits any direct violations of others' freedoms. Things like 'indecent exposure', taking advantage of children in any way, fraud, theft, murder... things like that.

I am not a person of such intelligence as to decide what qualifies as an offense against personal freedom, but we did have some who made a decent attempt, once. They failed in certain respects, but their philosophy was fairly sound at the time, considering the issues they faced.

We should embrace their way of thinking; prohibitng the violation of personal freedoms by government or other citizens or external states.

I am far from an atheist, but I have respect for God's ability to design a system that will perpetually renew itself despite the failings of mortals. History is but a repetion of the same cycles in the same ways. War, peace, economic prosperity, economic decline, revolution, a shift in global power, war.....and so on and so forth.


Does the New Testament not teach tolerance and forgiveness? Have the U.S. and other free nations not prospered from such practices? Have those nations which do not embrace such philosophies not suffered?

From a religious perspective, the U.S. has sinned on many occasions, attempting to force beliefs upon others. But all these times goodwill was what motivated the American people to support such missives.

What we must do now is accept that sometimes the basic (constitutional) tenets of our society are rejected by some. We msut let them fail, then, so we do not harm ourselves and the future by allowing them to continue to exist beyond their means. And we must embrace this policy ourselves. If the U.S. follows the path of nations that have fallen before it we will fall as well.

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his abilites, and from each acoording to what they wish. There is no society that has not benefitted from such a policy, and such a policy can walk hand in hand with morality and religion if it so chooses.


Even if you choose to discount all of my arguments about tolerance, trade, and charity, there is no arguing that theocratic states always fail catastrophically in the end. There is no historical precedent to support this, period.


Morality is not something that one can control, and it has little to do with national prosperity. As long as the state enforces policy that enables free trade, the sytem will work on its' cycle, gradually increasing prosperity. Should the state step in and mandate moral practices or business regulation, the state will fail from debt as it attempts to enforce such policies, not to mention that such policies will grow exponentially as people take advantage of the system and new legilastion is required to close the gaps (and open new ones).

If people choose to be immoral in trade or life, let them fail. It is their own fault. For the same reasons we would not support a bank bailout, we should not support enforcement of morality. In the end, both accomplish litte, and the result is the same.

[headcase]

Yes the ante is a bit higher now, but it's like a dude said. the rich get richer, and the poor have children.

[joegrundman]

Am I the only one that has an issue with this stupid idea? Our government is obviously screwed up beyond believe to even think of this idea!

And for what are we doing this exactly? We need some bank failures. I'd let the economy dip for a bit to let these banks feel the sting of stupidity.

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way. With that, goes the morals since every man is left to his own devices to create his own morals (Chaos). 'No' morals is the result. Greed rules. When greed rules, you have issues. One being the lenders greed to shell out loans that they know are extremely risky. The other is on the consumer side in that the consumer is greedy and buys more house than they can afford to try and make a buck.

Welcome to our declining world. You can't save it either without a standard moral base and that only comes from one place. This is a world with a 'lack of standards' in the morals area, which ultimately leads to all the fighting you see throughout the world and and all the problems as well. Think of what a military would be like without standards? Now think of a world without god, which leads to many problems such as we are seeing.

Now watch the Atheists frothing mouths fling wide open! This will be entertaining. Problem is guys, if Darwin couldn't find a way to incorporate morals (let alone helping others with no personal gain) into his theories, neither can you (Two flaws in his theories right there that can debunk all of them outright some day). So tough luck beating that one back! :smug:

-S

Surely this is the apotheosis of Submanian thinking! It must be the atheists!:rotfl:

[darius359au]

Am I the only one that has an issue with this stupid idea? Our government is obviously screwed up beyond believe to even think of this idea!

And for what are we doing this exactly? We need some bank failures. I'd let the economy dip for a bit to let these banks feel the sting of stupidity.

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way. With that, goes the morals since every man is left to his own devices to create his own morals (Chaos). 'No' morals is the result. Greed rules. When greed rules, you have issues. One being the lenders greed to shell out loans that they know are extremely risky. The other is on the consumer side in that the consumer is greedy and buys more house than they can afford to try and make a buck.

Welcome to our declining world. You can't save it either without a standard moral base and that only comes from one place. This is a world with a 'lack of standards' in the morals area, which ultimately leads to all the fighting you see throughout the world and and all the problems as well. Think of what a military would be like without standards? Now think of a world without god, which leads to many problems such as we are seeing.

Now watch the Atheists frothing mouths fling wide open! This will be entertaining. Problem is guys, if Darwin couldn't find a way to incorporate morals (let alone helping others with no personal gain) into his theories, neither can you (Two flaws in his theories right there that can debunk all of them outright some day). So tough luck beating that one back! :smug:

-S
Surely this is the apotheosis of Submanian thinking! It must be the atheists!:rotfl:

Greedy people aren't just "Evil" atheists , anyone remember these pair - They were "Good" Christians http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3D71F3AF935A25756C0A9619482 60

[Skybird]

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way. With that, goes the morals since every man is left to his own devices to create his own morals (Chaos).

Nominated for the "Most Stupid Comment of the Year" Award.

Some people would even circumcise their brain in order to not admit that it were arch-American economic ideals - lack of sufficient monitoring and regulation, and "leaving it to the market" - that created this crashdown. If now the lesson from it would be learned (I highly doubt it in case of America) and more control mechanisms would get implemented to shield against this lack of responsibility and display of surreal greed, selfishness and short-sightedness - it would be these very same people complaining again about exactly these control mechnaism getting implemented.

I suggest Subman does like those "prayers for cheap petrol" did, travels to New York and starts praying at Wall Street. Judging by the recent temporary fall of gas prices, it works! :up:

And if it does not work - blame it on us evil, wicked, atheist, communist, european satanists again. It's all our fault, for the Dark Force is with us. :88) Oh where is Jesus when you really need him?

[Skybird]

... Oh where is Jesus when you really need him?

If Jesus could post on subsim I bet my right hand that Subman would call him a communist :D
"share with thy next", "love thy next like yourself", "look after the weak and abandoned", "don't judge so that you shall not be judged" - you could be right. A communist, no doubt! :lol:

[Skybird]

Some worth-to-know info on the US finance minister Henry Paulson - and why he might be so eager to pump 700 billion do9llars into the system. He was chief of Godlman Sachs until 2006, earned dozens of millions - and if saving the system now, he also saves his former employer, his buddies and colleagues - and his own private fortune.

Public office and private enterprise do not go well together.

http://www.focus.de/finanzen/doenchkolumne/us-finanzminister-der-zocker-der-die-welt-retten-will_aid_335359.html?drucken=1 (German)

And this guy is trusted to save the world...? :rotfl: Well, I will become the next president of the US.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Some people would even circumcise their brain in order to not admit that it were arch-American economic ideals - lack of sufficient monitoring and regulation, and "leaving it to the market" - that created this crashdown.

Don't forget that the high risk loans that created this little fiasco were only created because of government backing of financial institutions. The free market had little to do with it, other than many investors jumping on the federally-backed money-train. Can't blame them. They saw an opportunity and took it. That's what the market does, and why the state should have as little influence on the market as possible. Ensuring that all exchanges are voluntary and non-fradulent should be their main concern, not subsidizing, backing, or penalizing business.:nope:

Public office and private enterprise do not go well together.

You said it best.

[SS107.9MHz]

Am I the only one that has an issue with this stupid idea? Our government is obviously screwed up beyond believe to even think of this idea!

And for what are we doing this exactly? We need some bank failures. I'd let the economy dip for a bit to let these banks feel the sting of stupidity.

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way. With that, goes the morals since every man is left to his own devices to create his own morals (Chaos). 'No' morals is the result. Greed rules. When greed rules, you have issues. One being the lenders greed to shell out loans that they know are extremely risky. The other is on the consumer side in that the consumer is greedy and buys more house than they can afford to try and make a buck.

Welcome to our declining world. You can't save it either without a standard moral base and that only comes from one place. This is a world with a 'lack of standards' in the morals area, which ultimately leads to all the fighting you see throughout the world and and all the problems as well. Think of what a military would be like without standards? Now think of a world without god, which leads to many problems such as we are seeing.

Now watch the Atheists frothing mouths fling wide open! This will be entertaining. Problem is guys, if Darwin couldn't find a way to incorporate morals (let alone helping others with no personal gain) into his theories, neither can you (Two flaws in his theories right there that can debunk all of them outright some day). So tough luck beating that one back! :smug:

-S

Yep, G.W Buuuush just turn all atheist all of the sudden... Cause it was his idea you know? http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon10.gif, well not quite I now., it was his buddies' in the administration idea, but you get the picture? ;)

[SS107.9MHz]

If this keeps going one day Subman will reach critical mass his brain will implode...
He'll loose his faith in any god, shun the Republican party agressive economical policies and resurface as a good 4 nuthin' democrat, atheist and ecomentalist greenpeace member... And then CERN starts working again and destroys the Earth :rotfl:

[Konovalov]

If this keeps going one day Subman will reach critical mass his brain will implode...
He'll loose his faith in any god, shun the Republican party agressive economical policies and resurface as a good 4 nuthin' democrat, atheist and ecomentalist greenpeace member... And then CERN starts working again and destroys the Earth :rotfl:
:lol: :lol:
Commie pinko liberal freako and all that.;)

[SS107.9MHz]

Some people would even circumcise their brain in order to not admit that it were arch-American economic ideals - lack of sufficient monitoring and regulation, and "leaving it to the market" - that created this crashdown.
Don't forget that the high risk loans that created this little fiasco were only created because of government backing of financial institutions. The free market had little to do with it, other than many investors jumping on the federally-backed money-train. Can't blame them. They saw an opportunity and took it. That's what the market does, and why the state should have as little influence on the market as possible. Ensuring that all exchanges are voluntary and non-fradulent should be their main concern, not subsidizing, backing, or penalizing business.:nope:

Public office and private enterprise do not go well together.
You said it best.

Absolutely, the prime function of state should be to legislate so that the courts can regulate private market.

But has for some services I really think the State should be responsible for some services, because it's the sate duty in my opinion, to keep it's citizens safe.

For instance, could you fathom a privatly managed US army? (I'm not talking about those private security/merc style corporations who've been getting n action in Iraq)
Or (and this is a more local form of government, but still is) the police, firemen? So how can a what seems to me basic service like healthcare be mostly privately owned like in the states?

[Skybird]

Some people would even circumcise their brain in order to not admit that it were arch-American economic ideals - lack of sufficient monitoring and regulation, and "leaving it to the market" - that created this crashdown.

Don't forget that the high risk loans that created this little fiasco were only created because of government backing of financial institutions. The free market had little to do with it, other than many investors jumping on the federally-backed money-train. Can't blame them. They saw an opportunity and took it. That's what the market does, and why the state should have as little influence on the market as possible. Ensuring that all exchanges are voluntary and non-fradulent should be their main concern, not subsidizing, backing, or penalizing business.:nope:

I remember it different. Financial and economic statistics show america and americans do not save money, both private households and state do not save, but spend and consume like crazy instead. Credits for houses were given by banks to private persons without sufficient securities or saved money. Property prices went up, house owner could not pay the credit anymore, bank was left with foul credit, property priuces fell, et voila - a loss for the bank. Even more, the expectation that property prices would continue to go up until judgement day attracted gamblers and speculators, which invested and by that drove up the prices indeed and helped to crash the mortage market after the bancrupcty of housekeepers no longer able to pay. State regulation had nothing to do with it, but the free play of market forces led to surreal, irresponsible speculation and greed for more. Reasonable criterions and minimum own capital were not needed to get credit, and speculators were not kept in check. Free market is no cure for this - it is the cause of the mess.

I must say this is a mentality problem indeed. No other country in the industrialised word has a saving rate of households that tends to go towards zero. no other nation compares to this very bad habit.

Like private households, so the state. the state debts are aiming at ten trillion dollars already, that is a 1 with 13 zeroes. Yearly budgets are deficitary. the greatest national economy of the world - run by just five percent of global population - today makes three fifths of it's wealth not by a productive economy, but by financial transaction exclusively. as a side effect of that, many jobs had been exported. just 40% of the national income is coming from production of goods and either exporting them or consuming/selling them at home. Beyond that, america saves nothing from this national income, but consumes it, even more, 5% of global population not only consume all income from that biggest economy of which 3/5 are not productive anymore, but additionally consume 5-6% of the wealth created by the economies of the rest of the globe - and also completely consumes these without saving. A major share of the globe'S economic potential is busy with nothing else than feeding the inlimited hunger of America to consume: 5% of the population of this globe. That is total madness.

And this gluttony is the real problem for America - and for the globe. You simply consume more than you can produce and can pay for, and the debts rising for that reason and the habit of living on growing tic is what lead us to where we are, and it does growing damage to other economies as well which by that have to pay for you. The financial crisis and the way it was created and boosted artificially, is not the core of the issue - it is the symptom of the even deeper crisis behind it.

5-6% of the world's wealth outside america's economy is getting eaten up by America, and without compensation or producing something with it. It is wealth simply disappearing, not being invested and brought back into the circulation of wealth to create new productivity, at best it gets invested into more finacial trafficking opportunities. It's getting eaten up. - Now, if you only kill 5% of the yearly monetarian value trafficking through the american financial market, economists calculate, this would mean a critical shortage that would lead to a total collapse of the american economic and financial system, like your body must not lose all blood it holds to get you unconscious, but leaves you without consciousness long before you even have lost just half of your blood. A loss of 5% of the financial blood in america'S veins would already cause that unconsicousness, and mean a vital, life-threatening crisis. Just take eaway every 20th dollar from that - and your economy and financial markets are dead as dead can be. Total crash. Doomsday. Game over. Worst possible scenario. But you still raise your astronomical debts, and still you do not save any money, and still you mistake financial transaction and collecting the profit from that with a productive economy. but in fact 60% of your economy is producing nothing more than a process of moving bits and bytes from one database to another, and getting a fee or profit for that. That now is your existential basis!

America is in desperate need to learn not to live any longer beyond what it can afford and can pay for, and to learn how to economically manage it's national budget which it needs to come along with without borrowing even more money and without eating up even more global economic ressources that are not it's own. As long as this does not change, the crisis we have today will not find a final end, nor will it stop to live on, and even deepen. - If I have three thaler, and an apple costs one thaler, I can buy three apples. buying three leaves me with no reserves for other purposes. Buying three and leasing two more leaves me with debts. Doing this repeatedly leaves me with growing debts. I either distribute more newspapers so that I get payed with two additonal thalers plus X to pay for my debts I already made - or I buy less than three apples, not to increase my debts, and to pay off my existing debts.

really, that simple it is. It is common sense. Simple reasonability. Healthy management.

Instead we have foul and worthless state bonds getting pumped on the market, even more inflation, growing prices globally from that, and a stellar defense budget because america cannot let go anything of what it tries to keep for itself, even more it tries to claim more, and needs a higher defense budget which not really does justice to the description of a defense budget, since Iraq for exaple was a war of attack and a war of choice.

Putting all this together, america is the worst economic manager on the planet, and ruins itself and kills it's future chances by not knowing when enough is enough. and then comes some smarthead like Subman and accuses atheists to be the one to blame. How could one not burst into bitter grim laughter about all that.

Well, after all our exchanges of words recently you should know me a bit by now, so dont take my criticism as aimed against you personally. More and more we non-americans just loose a bit our patience with a political actor that America is, who does not seem to ever start asking critical questions about itself and if it's ways of going really are that wonderful for the world and even america itself, while that same world at the same time increasingly feels the negative effects of that system and increasingly has to pay for the blowbacks from it, and are expected to spend deficitary investements into keeping that system alive so that america must not change and can do business as usual, at everybody else's cost, and keep on living by taking more than it can compensate for by itself. As a country, you are not making yourself friends by continuing to behave like that, and the growing global anti-americanism is a clear indication for that and is directly linked to this - it is by far not just blind ideological hate and unfair greed for american wealth. It's that you are living at other nations' and peoples' cost - and that anti-americanism is caused by this, is just logical.

It all is like playing sim city, and not caring to develope in a way that your game money income can pay for the growth of your city, but using a God-cheat or a cheat for infinite money - it is cheating. In other words, America is a cheater. and although it enforced the unlimited money printing licence by getting the oil price linked to the dollar - it still is not enough and can't hold out with the money it gets, and consumes more and makes debts. That is gluttony indeed.

[DeepIron]

Anytime the Germans, French, Japanese or anyone else for that matter, want to step up and assume the "World center stage", go for it... It's all too easy to a be a critic when your not the one in the spotlight... :shifty:

[Skybird]

Anytime the Germans, French, Japanese or anyone else for that matter, want to step up and assume the "World center stage", go for it... It's all too easy to a be a critic when your not the one in the spotlight... :shifty:
I am not saving these countries from criticism, and my posting record shows that. But what is at issue here, is a problem made in america in the main. Also, what you say about world centre stage is no excuse - you are claiming that world centre stage but overstretch yourself by doing so. and still you claim the role of the knight in shining armour, and that you distribute more to the world than the World gives back to you. That is simply an erratic calculation. If that hurt'S America'S ego, I cannot help it, but I stick to that. I do not see any country or block being able to afford claiming the world cnetre cposiition all by itself, andn that may be the reason why more and more scientists describe the future to be not a unipolar one, like america wants it to be, but a multipolar one. that means it will be ore dangerous, and more chaotic indeed. But it canot be helped: i simply is the most realistic assessement. If the whole world needs to imncreasingly pay for america's egoism to keep itself as the only cnetral figure of world domination installed, then this is a deal that calculates even worse than having a multipolar world and needing to compete with other global players as well, imo. The American model simply has become too expensive and too deficitary.

also, your country is in the spotlight because it wants to dominate unilaterally. You want the fame, you want the power- you have to accept the cameras as well. If you would not affect all us others so massievely, we would not care for oyu that much. logical, eh? It is our most reasonable, natural self-interest to keep you under as tight monitoring as possible. If you fail, the mess is raining down on us as well. American consequences are global consequences.

[DeepIron]

C'mon... greed and stupidity aren't limited to the US. Don't you think for a moment that the economies of other nations are intertwined with that of the US just for a "warm and fuzzy" feeling... Same kind of issues can apply to any economic system, in any country. Want to live in Zimbabwe right now?

If you fail, the mess is raining down on us as well. American consequences are global consequences. Yep... so true. But then again, I can't help but wonder how the EU would manage if Russia ceased its gas and oil exports either... :shifty:

[Skybird]

The energy policy of the EU - as that of the US since the oil crisis as well! - is highly questionable. True. - And both the EU and US energy policy are two completely different issues that have nothing, really nothing to do with hedge fonds, insane investement banking and the rejection of the US government to have a close enough look at Wall Street's fingerplays.

[DeepIron]

and the rejection of the US government to have a close enough look at Wall Street's fingerplays.Well, there's the rub... a sword that cuts both ways when wielded...

Either the government pokes it's Federal nose into the private and business sectors, where, really, it has no business being (can you say "regulation"?) Or, it doesn't and allows capitalism to run it's course with whatever consequences result.

It's not the role of government to set prices on new homes for citizens... the housing market does that. Nor is it the governments job to examine and regulate every mortgage either. The current economic fiasco was driven by the private sector, an overzealous housing market and sub-prime lending schemes.

Wonderful citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_lending

Were there "shady goings on" in the banking and investment sectors? Perhaps... but who knows for sure right now. The troubling aspect for me at least is that my government want to bailout these failures and "save the world". Bosh...

[Skybird]

and the rejection of the US government to have a close enough look at Wall Street's fingerplays.Well, there's the rub... a sword that cuts both ways when wielded...

Either the government pokes it's Federal nose into the private and business sectors, where, really, it has no business being (can you say "regulation"?) Or, it doesn't and allows capitalism to run it's course with whatever consequences result.

It's not the role of government to set prices on new homes for citizens... the housing market does that. Nor is it the governments job to examine and regulate every mortgage either. The current economic fiasco was driven by the private sector, an overzealous housing market and sub-prime lending schemes.

Wonderful citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_lending

Were there "shady goings on" in the banking and investment sectors? Perhaps... but who knows for sure right now. The troubling aspect for me at least is that my government want to bailout these failures and "save the world". Bosh...

It is the government'S job to release rules for traffic regulation, to rise a police controlling that these rules are obeyed by everybody, to assess risks to the public interest and limit them by according rules like speed limits etc., and to bring to penalty those who do not comply with these rules. I do not buy this nightmare of a free unregulated market America is dreaming off (wrongly dreams off, since it is one of the most regulated and protected economies in thr world ;) ) that is nothing more than a lethal gladiators fight between determined egoists who bring us nothing than monopolism and the unlegitimiated power coming from that once monopoles have been acchieved. Free market mechanism as you demand it just brought us to where we are, because the absence of rules that must be obeyed by everybody is nothing else but anarchy where the law of the jungle rules. And now you demand even more of it...? :huh: It seems the pain still is not big enough for you, then. Well, lets wait a while. The show we currently enjoy will keep on running for a longer time to come, no matter wether we like it or not.

[DeepIron]

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.

Free market mechanism as you demand it just brought us to where we are, because the absence of rules that must be obeyed by everybody is nothing else but anarchy where the law of the jungle rules.

So what? I'd say it's naive to think that it's otherwise SB. It won't matter a wet slap if ALL of the worlds governments all got together and agreed on "The Rulz". Greed will always find it's way in. Greed and avarice will always corrupt good men, including those whom we empower. Your not going to find a utopian ideal where "rules must be obeyed by everybody". Sorry, too Orwellian for my tastes...

I say, let the law of the jungle prevail! Capitalism is ruthless. I can't think of a single company that went into business to break even or operate at a loss... Companies want to operate in the black... There's little "morality" anymore in business, whether on the part of government or otherwise. Crush the little guy and "grab with both hands and make a stash" to quote Pink Floyd...

[joegrundman]

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.

Free market mechanism as you demand it just brought us to where we are, because the absence of rules that must be obeyed by everybody is nothing else but anarchy where the law of the jungle rules.
So what? I'd say it's naive to think that it's otherwise SB. It won't matter a wet slap if ALL of the worlds governments all got together and agreed on "The Rulz". Greed will always find it's way in. Greed and avarice will always corrupt good men, including those whom we empower. Your not going to find a utopian ideal where "rules must be obeyed by everybody". Sorry, too Orwellian for my tastes...

I say, let the law of the jungle prevail! Capitalism is ruthless. I can't think of a single company that went into business to break even or operate at a loss... Companies want to operate in the black... There's little "morality" anymore in business, whether on the part of government or otherwise. Crush the little guy and "grab with both hands and make a stash" to quote Pink Floyd...

this assumes that finance companies' debt won't be picked up by the taxpayer. The entire calculus you describe is distorted when the financial institutions believe there failures are covered.

When they keep their profits, but you pay their losses, excessive risk-taking is to be expected

So you have two choices (other than to accept paying their vast periodic bills for them, and in effect subsidise their wealthy lifestyles and taxpayer expense)

a) Do not underwrite their debts and accept that they may periodically screw up the finance system which could even lead to international financial troubles
b) regulate them, which may reduce some of their profitability in the good days.

[GlobalExplorer]

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way.

The question is which one, the Christian god, the mighty Allah, Krishna of the Hindu or the Great Bear of the Innuit?

[Skybird]

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.

Free market mechanism as you demand it just brought us to where we are, because the absence of rules that must be obeyed by everybody is nothing else but anarchy where the law of the jungle rules.

So what? I'd say it's naive to think that it's otherwise SB. It won't matter a wet slap if ALL of the worlds governments all got together and agreed on "The Rulz". Greed will always find it's way in. Greed and avarice will always corrupt good men, including those whom we empower. Your not going to find a utopian ideal where "rules must be obeyed by everybody". Sorry, too Orwellian for my tastes...

I say, let the law of the jungle prevail! Capitalism is ruthless. I can't think of a single company that went into business to break even or operate at a loss... Companies want to operate in the black... There's little "morality" anymore in business, whether on the part of government or otherwise. Crush the little guy and "grab with both hands and make a stash" to quote Pink Floyd...

Fan-tas-tic reply.

[Blacklight]

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way. With that, goes the morals since every man is left to his own devices to create his own morals (Chaos). 'No' morals is the result. Greed rules. When greed rules, you have issues. One being the lenders greed to shell out loans that they know are extremely risky. The other is on the consumer side in that the consumer is greedy and buys more house than they can afford to try and make a buck.


Lets not bring religion into this. This has nothing to do with religion nor would religion have stopped this crap. This is simple corporate greed that has been with us since the dawn of man. This is the bank version of ENRON.
Wherever there's huge chunks of cash to be made.. people are going to find ways to exploit it to line their pockets.
I personally think some arrests should be made.... a LOT of arrests.

First off... the world is full of greedy corporate types, and seccondly, we have a culture of stuped, thinking for now and not later corporations AND consumers. That's what got us into this mess. :nope:

The whole bailout thing just REALLY pisses me off. These banks should be held accountable. Not given more cash for their CEO's and the upper echelon guys to line their pockets more because we all know that that's exaclty where this bailout is going to go. Into their pockets and overseas.

[UnderseaLcpl]

The whole bailout thing just REALLY pisses me off. These banks should be held accountable. Not given more cash for their CEO's and the upper echelon guys to line their pockets more because we all know that that's exaclty where this bailout is going to go. Into their pockets and overseas.

Oh ho! I think it is going far worse places than that. It's going into the national debt as well. You might as well just print 700 billion dollars and destroy the currency.

If the banks had to figure a way out of this mess, the loss would not be so great. Some of those high-risk loans could still be bought if the borrowers had good history of payment with their loan. People who did default would have their homes foreclosed and liquidated by the bank, recouping at least some of the loss.

But when the government steps in and assumes liability for all "assets", it directly translates into inflated money supply. Banks limit their inflation of the money supply by balancing assets and liability, and also invest heavily in generally sound venues, thus generating wealth both for the bank and for those they invest in, in the form of company growth and jobs. A little borrowed is offset by a little lent and a wise investment policy. And if they fail, they die. Sucks to be them but whatever.

Government control of these failed companies assets basically transforms all of these near-currency assets into real currency. They might as well print "legal tender for all debt, public and private" on it.

Now we are really fecked because that money makes ours worth less, and there will never be any salvageable loans. Even if they somehow make a profit, they would eat it all up in administration costs or devote it to another program.

One way or another, the execs are going to have golden parachutes, the plutocratic nature of government-heavy business is going to ensure that. But what they steal is a pin***** compared to what the state is about to thrust upon us.

And they'll ultimately be the only ones laughing all the way to the bank. :nope:

[DeepIron]

My wife ran across this video on MSNBC and I think it sums up very nicely in laymans terms how we got into this mess in the first place.

http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-US&vid=bc789325-2ebc-4ce9-b1ae-ce356526d204

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,druck-579707,00.html

The global financial crisis could also have a stronger and lengthier impact on the German economy than previously believed. According to information obtained by SPIEGEL, the German government plans to reduce its forecast for economic growth in 2009 from 1.2 percent to 0.5 percent.

Thank you, but no thanks for that. Reducing that growth rate translates into thousands of jobs going KIA - the according families and workers paying the bill.

Meanwhile, in a small Gallic village resisting the Roman conquerers:


“You can have all the meetings you want,” this Republican said, referring to the White House session with Mr. Bush, the presidential candidates and Congressional leaders, still hours away. “It comes to the floor and the votes aren’t there. It won’t pass.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/26/business/26bailout.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin

We also mourn another loss of a comrade in the financial network, Washington Mutual. You were the greatest bank in town, pal. Rest in pieces.

[Frame57]

The CEO's should be held accountable for this. They knew full well that they were issuing bogus loans to people who could not afford them. Let those companies fail... of course you have not heard of the Reverend Jackson and his antics to try to strongarm loan houses into providing loans to the "poor". Tough! If the poor cannot afford a loan then they should not have a loan. Solution: Get un-poor!

[Wolfehunter]

Am I the only one that has an issue with this stupid idea? Our government is obviously screwed up beyond believe to even think of this idea!
No it is stupid but thats what there gambling on.

And for what are we doing this exactly? We need some bank failures. I'd let the economy dip for a bit to let these banks feel the sting of stupidity.
This is what happens when you let outside sources make your dollars and devalue them every time newones are printed.

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way. With that, goes the morals since every man is left to his own devices to create his own morals (Chaos). 'No' morals is the result. Greed rules. When greed rules, you have issues. One being the lenders greed to shell out loans that they know are extremely risky. The other is on the consumer side in that the consumer is greedy and buys more house than they can afford to try and make a buck.
I'm atheists but I don't need religion to give me values of Honour, Respect and Moral because of a fictitious deities and false beliefs. Politics and religion don't mix and shouldn't be mixed.

Welcome to our declining world. You can't save it either without a standard moral base and that only comes from one place. This is a world with a 'lack of standards' in the morals area, which ultimately leads to all the fighting you see throughout the world and and all the problems as well. Think of what a military would be like without standards? Now think of a world without god, which leads to many problems such as we are seeing.

The people at the top of a pyramid schemes are in control of the world. Not your governments or military but bankers and related institutions who are a select few who in control of it all. Its their ideas running the world.

Now watch the Atheists frothing mouths fling wide open! This will be entertaining. Problem is guys, if Darwin couldn't find a way to incorporate morals (let alone helping others with no personal gain) into his theories, neither can you (Two flaws in his theories right there that can debunk all of them outright some day). So tough luck beating that one back! :smug:

What do you expect us to say. That dragons, ghost, goblins and deities walk the earth... If you say so I guess?:hmm: Naw I don't buy it.:rotfl: Sorry Subman.

If you want to blame someone blame yourselves for letting these people control your lives behind the scenes. Passing laws that conflict with your rights. These A-holes making decision that screw everyones lives. They get away with it because we don't do nothing to stop it. So expect hard times. Pick on those who have done the crime not what they believe in, assuming that their religious or not.

So again all this has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with all citizens living in this world and allows it to continue unchecked.

How government works? Official solo purpose is protecting there friends and families. No you or me or anyone else. So they get handouts and bribes etc. They secure there buddies so they all can get rich off the hard working citizen trying to survive.

Now they can't bloat the dollar no more so it popped. Who do you think suffers..?:hmm: We all do except a the few elites.:down:

Its has to do with money and that is power absolutely.

[mrbeast]

Am I the only one that has an issue with this stupid idea? Our government is obviously screwed up beyond believe to even think of this idea!

And for what are we doing this exactly? We need some bank failures. I'd let the economy dip for a bit to let these banks feel the sting of stupidity.

Here is for all the Atheists - This is due to people turning their back on god by the way. With that, goes the morals since every man is left to his own devices to create his own morals (Chaos). 'No' morals is the result. Greed rules. When greed rules, you have issues. One being the lenders greed to shell out loans that they know are extremely risky. The other is on the consumer side in that the consumer is greedy and buys more house than they can afford to try and make a buck.

Welcome to our declining world. You can't save it either without a standard moral base and that only comes from one place. This is a world with a 'lack of standards' in the morals area, which ultimately leads to all the fighting you see throughout the world and and all the problems as well. Think of what a military would be like without standards? Now think of a world without god, which leads to many problems such as we are seeing.

Now watch the Atheists frothing mouths fling wide open! This will be entertaining. Problem is guys, if Darwin couldn't find a way to incorporate morals (let alone helping others with no personal gain) into his theories, neither can you (Two flaws in his theories right there that can debunk all of them outright some day). So tough luck beating that one back! :smug:

-S

I think we should copy and paste this as the first response to every thread that Subman spams the forum up with just so we can have a reference of which direction he is coming from in practically every subject he brings up. :yep: ;)