The weapon I want on my sub.

[Darksun]

So I am curious about why U-Boats didn't have stronger counter measures against depth charge dropping boats.

Everytime I hear a DD reving up to drop depth charges I wished I had some float charges. I just want some explosives I can release to near the surface with magnetic triggers. Basically just the torpedo warhead attached to a float. Release two to four of them in the path of a DD on it's way to drop charges on me.

Based on the weapons and technology the Uboats used it seems like a pretty viable weapon system. The would be a lot smaller than torpedos and could cripple or sink an escort. They would be especially deadly at night when the DD crew wouldn't see them. The Uboat could then get away.

It just seems so "obvious" to me that a uboat could really use something with a little more punch than just "run silent, run deep". Once they got you with ASDIC, you are in terrible trouble. Shooting a stern shot "down the throat" is OK, but you have to work pretty hard to get a solution. Something like the decoy launcher could launch a float strait up with little trouble. Heck, replace my deck gun with a surface charge launcher after about 1942.

-D

[GoldenRivet]

but the moment you get caught on the surface by a small armed merchant it would only take one good hit to one of those float charges and your done...

also... would the float charges be strong enough to withstand the diving depth of the sub.

for example, if the sub's test depth was 165 meters.... but the charges could go no deeper than 50 meters... whats the point?

[Letum]

It makes sense to me.
They must have thought about it.

[Letum]

but the moment you get caught on the surface by a small armed merchant it would only take one good hit to one of those float charges and your done...

also... would the float charges be strong enough to withstand the diving depth of the sub.

for example, if the sub's test depth was 165 meters.... but the charges could go no deeper than 50 meters... whats the point?

They would be as safe as external torpedoes. And external torps can cope with any
depth, so a simple mine should have no problem.

[GoldenRivet]

but as you said... they must have thought about it... the question is.

why was it not implemented?

answer that question and you'll know why they didnt have them.

[Letum]

Here is a lead:

1942 US patent for a Floating submarine mine to be "launched in the path of a pursuing ship" (http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US002271185&PageNum=1&IDKey=3ACD5D9EDDF6&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526 p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum. htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=2271185.PN.%25 26OS=PN/2271185%2526RS=PN/2271185)

[onelifecrisis]

but as you said... they must have thought about it... the question is.

why was it not implemented?

answer that question and you'll know why they didnt have them.

So, we're back where we/Darksun started. :lol:

[Task Force]

couldnt they have bomb proof the decks. make them shaped so the shock waves go up. or a DC that did the oppisate of sinking and would blow up on contact with a ship.:hmm:

[Letum]

I want acoustic torpedo mines. You drop them outside a port and they wait until
they hear a ship. when they do; they chase it.

[richardphat]

I want acoustic torpedo mines. You drop them outside a port and they wait until
they hear a ship. when they do; they chase it.

You forget about friendly ship which heads into the port?!??! Boom:hmm: :hmm:
Nice negative renown!

[Letum]

I want acoustic torpedo mines. You drop them outside a port and they wait until
they hear a ship. when they do; they chase it.
You forget about friendly ship which heads into the port?!??! Boom:hmm: :hmm:
Nice negative renown!


....I doubt the Bismark is gonna sail in to Plymouth.

[GoldenRivet]

I want acoustic torpedo mines. You drop them outside a port and they wait until
they hear a ship. when they do; they chase it.
You forget about friendly ship which heads into the port?!??! Boom:hmm: :hmm:
Nice negative renown!

....I doubt the Bismark is gonna sail in to Plymouth.

thinking like that is going to lose us this war sailor! :rotfl:

[bookworm_020]

I want acoustic torpedo mines. You drop them outside a port and they wait until
they hear a ship. when they do; they chase it.
You forget about friendly ship which heads into the port?!??! Boom:hmm: :hmm:
Nice negative renown!

....I doubt the Bismark is gonna sail in to Plymouth.

But with Bernard on the crew anything is possible!:roll:

[Darksun]

Here is a lead:

1942 US patent for a Floating submarine mine to be "launched in the path of a pursuing ship" (http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US002271185&PageNum=1&IDKey=3ACD5D9EDDF6&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526 p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum. htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=2271185.PN.%25 26OS=PN/2271185%2526RS=PN/2271185)

I can't load the link. :(

But some ace detective work there Letum! :up:

[Letum]

You need this plugin (http://www.alternatiff.com/). Read the instructions first.

[Uncle Goose]

The problem was not that it wasn't possible to invent something like that but to implant it without compromising the building programs and war efforts. Dönitz wanted a thicker hull for every sub build but due restrictions in the use of steel it was denied. several other useful ideas never left the drawing board either. Just imagine you have only the opportunity to choose 1 invention that can be implanted out of several dozens of ideas without guarantees it would actually work in war. Wouldn't you hestite to make a decision??

[Puster Bill]

Uncle Goose might have *PART* of the answer, but that still leaves the question open as to why no navy (at least that I'm aware of) implemented such a weapon.

It isn't because of weight problems, as one could make them neutrally bouyant until released, and there would be at least some space in the free-flood area of the casing to install them.

I suspect it has more to do with the fact that it could come back to bite you in the derierre. Picture a submarine moving at silent speed at depth, and it releases one or more of these things while being attacked. As a sub commander, you have to evade, so you make course changes and do what you can to lose your pursuers.


Let's say you are successful, and sometime later you surface. You now have a bunch of mines that are lethal to the sub itself floating around, and you have no idea where they are. You could even surface into one. Wind and current could spread them around enough that even if you travelled in a straight line, you could still be in danger.

You *COULD* put them on a timer to self-destruct after a couple of hours, I suppose, but I can imagine circumstances where even that might be risky, especially since timers have a habit of malfunctioning, especially ones that haven't had any maintenance for a month and have been subjected to the pounding from depth charges.


A better solution would be a combination of sensors (optical for day use, a magnetic anomaly detector, or perhaps an upward facing ultrasonic active sonar) and an underwater rocket with a small, but decent enough sized warhead. Similar in concept to the "Schrage Muzik" system used on the Me-163B, it would launch single or multiple projectiles upwards when a ship was overhead. This could only be used at relatively shallow depths, however. Also, you wouldn't want to trigger it if a ship wasn't already overhead, because it gives away your position.

[predavolk]

I think the resource issue is the biggest concern. They didn't have the desire early, and the time/resources later, to muck around too much. Tactically, I think the drawback would be that you would have to "bait" the destroyer into following you AND that the trick would be fairly obvious once it was discovered. It could be used to by a few extra seconds as the escort makes a looping attack, but that's about it.

The real solution was acoustic torpedos and the XXI, but they both came too late.

[Platapus]

Sort of like a reverse hedgehog? Where small charges float up instead of floating down?

A most interesting idea:know:

[_Seth_]

I've often had the same thought; Some device to launch from the deep, just to get that d@#ned DD off my back...:-? A nice little suprise for him, just bobbin' in the sea... :lol:

[nikbear]

Im sure they did have these sorts of ideas themselves:hmm:If my memory serves me correctly the story goes that hitler had heard of the problems his U-boat crews were having with DD's and instructed his warfare scientists to come up with a device to be launched upwards at them to take them out,this they could not acheive:nope:but all there work was not without its benefits,it led to the invention of bold;)

[TarJak]

The tactics were to remain undetected in the first place and then evade as best you can if you did get detected. U-Boats were used extensively by the KM during both WWI and WWII in minelaying operations. The types of mines they used are discussed here: http://www.war44.com/forum/u_boats/898-u-boat-armament.html#post2634

[Jimbuna]

I'll settle for this beauty.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5642/tridentmissileimageoq2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[HunterICX]

The weapon I would like to have onboard:

''The One Ring to Rule them all'' :arrgh!:

HunterICX

[Jimbuna]

The weapon I would like to have onboard:

''The One Ring to Rule them all'' :arrgh!:

HunterICX

Ah! That one....the wedding ring :lol:

[danurve]

I'm going for the Tripple-Barreled Spud AA Gun.

http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/1/4/6/Potatoturret.jpg

Hott Damn :sunny:

[Kipparikalle]

I just resolt on my tactical nuclear missile.

1. Launch it to surface
2. Wait as the missile gains height
3. ???
4. Laugh at the enemy while they crush beneath the fireball


Also loads of harr harr harr and rom

[HunterICX]

or...I replace my peanut deck gun for this one

''Dora''
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9646/doraqu8.jpg
but I guess this will effect my Uboat's perfomance:-?
and then the ammunition...where to store them

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/4092/dorashell04na9.jpg

HunterICX

[Kipparikalle]

Thats a very good question.

No matter how many times I see the size of the shell of Dora, it always impresses me.

I mean, its like the ultimate weapon of omega-badassery, Dora uses shells size of 2 story-house. Its so f*cking badass that the shell gives you a finger just before detonating with a force enought to punch the moon out of its rail.

Sorry about all the drooling, but the Dora is just that badass

-K

[Sailor Steve]

It also weighs twice as much as a Type VII u-boat. And a broadside from any battleship puts more weight of explosive on target than a shell from that 'thing', and can do it a couple of times per minute.

But you're right - just as an object built to impress, it's impressive.

[Kipparikalle]

And if not being enought badass already, in the battle of Sevastapol, when the shell hit the ground, the airpressure it created would kill everyone withing 40 meters (didn't the shell create a 20 m wide crater?)

[Jimbuna]

And if not being enought badass already, in the battle of Sevastapol, when the shell hit the ground, the airpressure it created would kill everyone withing 40 meters (didn't the shell create a 20 m wide crater?)


The shells for Dora and Gustav, including the 1 ton charge was 17 feet long. It needed a ton of charge to send the 7 ton shell over 25 miles from the 100 foot long barrel. The shell on test firing proved to be able to penetrate 30 feet deep into earth making a crater over 90 feet feet across.


http://www.vincelewis.net/dora.html

[OneToughHerring]

I've read in Otto Skorzenys memoire that there were very significant plans to house either V1's or even V2's on subs, on their decks. They would be taken to, for example, the coast of US and then maybe at night time when the sea would be calm launched. This way Hitler could have finally gotten to exact some revenge on cities like New York.

So that might be interesting, to have a sort of secret mission where you would take a water resistant prototype version of, say, V1 and launch it toward the New York skyline. Points would be given if you were to hit a significant building or if it would hit New York at all.

Also another idea, frogmen on the sub. Would be nice if there were a couple of sabouteur frogmen in the sub who could plant timed devices on boats in harbours etc. Would give some time to skidaddle out of there.

[Task Force]

yea they could have done like the japanease and put a plane (rocket) on there subs, A IXD2 would be perfect.:D

That is one big shell that thing fires, makes the yamato`s look like a toy

[Kipparikalle]

@Jimbuna

Yeah, I wasn't sure how big the crater was, but anyway. It really did kill people just with the airpressure it created. It caused the same effect when you swim on deep water and then suddenly swim straight to the surface.

Told in the book named "March to Russia"

[Jimbuna]

@Jimbuna

Yeah, I wasn't sure how big the crater was, but anyway. It really did kill people just with the airpressure it created. It caused the same effect when you swim on deep water and then suddenly swim straight to the surface.

Told in the book named "March to Russia"

Decompression sickness:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decompression_sickness

[Red Heat]

I want acoustic torpedo mines. You drop them outside a port and they wait until
they hear a ship. when they do; they chase it.
You forget about friendly ship which heads into the port?!??! Boom:hmm: :hmm:
Nice negative renown!


....I doubt the Bismark is gonna sail in to Plymouth.

Nice! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Hartmann]

A circle running torpedo with a shallow deep and launched from the deeps could be a good solution, or as someone said before, a floating mine.

l

[Letum]

The RAF experimented with a depth charge that went up.

But this one went up several thousand feet to try and down bombers. :doh:

[OneToughHerring]

Going with WW 2 - era technology it's kinda interesting to think about that floating mine. Plus I've got a case of flu and have nothing better to do right now. I was thinking of a setup where there would be a kind of harpoon - device that would be launched at a ship directly above or close by. The aiming could be done with the periscope that would tilt upward. The 'harpoon' could be some kind of device that would attach to the bottom of a boat, maybe a strong magnetic device.

The magnetic device would be connected to the mine with a light cable, once the magnet would have attached itself the cable would pull the mine from it's housing on the subs deck or whereever and there would be a spooling motor on the mine that would spool up the mine to the bottom of the ship and go boom. If the magnet wouldn't catch a boat it would spooled back and another launch could be attempted.

Or just have the mine in the magnetic device and when it would attach it would disconnect the cable. This way no loose mines floating around in sub waters.

[Hitman]

The answer is pretty simple: You can't launch torpedoes or mines in WW2 from 30+ metres depth, therefore you can't be deep enough to evade if it fails, and being deeper means not only you can't launch the device but also you have little chances of it hitting the DD. As you are esentially deaf and blind down there, with your stern pointing to the DD.

When you hear the DD in charging run, he is already over you, dropping DCs in advance of your trajectory, so any effort to launch anything vertically will mean it comes out behind the DDs stern.

Finally, about the externally stored torpedoes: Yes, they were in waterproof compartments, but you can't open them deep, same as you can't do the same with your torpedo doors. So a mine to be launched from deep woul need to be externally, and its link to the boat made loose internally, which means a huge danger of explosion by having something like that glued to the external part of your hull.