NYGM + Aircraft

[Steeltrap]

This is a copy of a post I put in the mods room but I've had no response there as yet.

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OK, so I got NYGM 3.0 running.

First patrol, set sail 6th Sept 1939 in a new VIIB, bound for AM18.

Followed usual course NW along deep water off Norway, skirting the continental shelf of the North Sea.

Eventually that leads to a westerly course, well north of Scapa etc.

Now, weather 13m/s, no clouds, no precip, light 'sea-mist'. Running at 7kts - no point in bashing into these seas and wasting fuel.

I figure the war has been running only a week or so - was 9th Sept. by the time I was north of the Orkneys. Likelihood of aircraft should be low, and their chances of seeing me at this speed in these seas should be lower still.

Well.....

Watch crew calls out about an aircraft spotted. 2 Hurricanes, closing fast. Crash dive!

Cannon shells etc all over the place, reports of damage.
Levelled off at 80m then took stock:
- minimal damage.
- several crew wounded.
- hull integrity 79% - WTF???

So I figure I was unlucky. Wait several hours then surface.

Within 28 minutes EXACTLY the same thing happens.

Wait until dusk. Surface.
Within 24 minutes, EXACTLY the same thing happens.

Right....wait until dark. Surface and run until dawn.

Sure enough, within about 30 minutes of light - EXACTLY the same thing happens.
Now my hull integrity is down to 39%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My questions are:
1. is this now 'normal'? This seems to me to be entirely over the top for that part of the sea in that weather at that date.

2. Does the fact that aircraft appeared within 25 minutes (+/- 3 minutes) from the time of my surfacing (or there being enough light to rate as 'day') indicate a problem? Smells pretty fishy to me. Bear in mind I had barely enough time to recharge batteries before the next attack. This is even when I remain submerged for hours after the previous attack.

3. Surely reaching 39% hull integrity without anything other than 20mm cannon shells hitting me is getting a bit absurd??

I understand aircraft are a thing to be feared, but if this is how it is on 9th Spetember 1939 I think it has gone waaaaaaaaaaaay too far. Have things got to the point that, if travelling ANYWHERE that might have air coverage, irrespective of date, you need to remain submerged during daylight?

Would like to hear from others about their experiences under 3.0.

Don't get me wrong - I really love NYGM (and was enjoying GWX until I got sick of the instability problems my machine seemed to be having, which is entirely possibly due to an error on my part in installation). Just want to see what others are experiencing.

Cheers

[nirwana]

Yes thats normal. Playing 100+ patrols in NYGM AM 11-15 is heavily patrolled by air which are based on an airbase at the coastline of scotland in AM 13.

Unlike in gwx heavy clouds and low visibility wont protect u against air attacks. I use sh3gen to get all their airbases into my map. Unless i hunt in those grids i recharge my batteries only during nighttime and run submerged during daytime even in oct. 39. If i need to recharge daytime i do it full stop. Attacking ships in those grids i must not wait longer then 20 min to see hurricanes looking for me.

I suspect this airbase has radar which picks u up on the surface as soon as u move.

[Kielhauler1961]

That scary! I don't play NYGM but it sounds a tougher than it should be. The Hurricane Mk. I, of 1939 vintage, was equipped with .303 machine guns; the 20mm cannon on the Mk. II didn't appear until later in the war. .303 calibre bullets would not have been able to puncture the pressure hull. If NTGM Hurricanes in 1939 have cannon, something is badly wrong.

[nirwana]

The Hurricane versions attacking me 39/40 from this airbase have 4 cannons and i think 2x50 kg bombs although i get wabo warning submerged. The only advantage i have is that they open fire only at medium or close range that gives me the chance to dive standard if i was smart enough to run deck awashed. It might be historicly less accurate but it makes patrols around grid AM 13 chellanging right from the beginning of WW2.

btw. i discovered very late that if anything (ship or plane) is in a certain range but not close enough to be detectable visually or by hydro the tc jumps to 8 if tc was higher then that. Time enough to dive and check out what caused it.

[Sailor Steve]

That scary! I don't play NYGM but it sounds a tougher than it should be. The Hurricane Mk. I, of 1939 vintage, was equipped with .303 machine guns; the 20mm cannon on the Mk. II didn't appear until later in the war. .303 calibre bullets would not have been able to puncture the pressure hull. If NTGM Hurricanes in 1939 have cannon, something is badly wrong.
The cannon-armed Hurricane Mk IIC is I think the only one available in the game. It's something we've had to live with. I agree that the .303 machine guns were rather weak in the steel-penetration department, they were deadly to exposed crews and I don't think they would have ignored the possibiliy of an accidental penetration. I know I would be prone to dive an any circumstance, just in case.

[Steeltrap]

Well in each case I did order crash dive - still ended up with 39% hull integrity within 36hrs, all from bullets from Hurricanes on me within 25 (+/-3) minutes of being on the surface in daylight/dusk conditions.

Does that mean the same will be true in AM53, for example?

I'm sorry, but I think that is ridiculous for September '39.

[Letum]

Did you use over x512 TC?

[Steeltrap]

Did you use over x512 TC?

The largest TC I use when travelling through an area with possible air contacts is 256. When hunting for contacts, or particularly fearful of air, I use 64 or 128.

In these cases the first attack occured when I was at 256. I think the aircraft were spotted at only 2-3km.

After the first one, the next was at 128.

The last two were at 64.

On NO occasion did I manage to dive before being attacked - and hit - by cannon fire.

I had the best watch crew available for a first patrol:
1 x watch qualified Officer
2 x watch qualified PO
2 x highest rank seaman (3 chevrons rank)

[nirwana]

AM 53 is fine to me as long as i stay in the western part of it. But u wont find many lonely merchants there its convoy/taskforce property. With patience u will spot even unescorted convoys there. Personally i prefer AM 51/52 which are out of range of fighters. Lots of convoy to herass there.

Its weird that ure tc didnt jumped to 8 it happens generally to me and i still have a minute or more without ships sighted or plane spotted reports. Did u make the changes regarding tc settings in sh3com adviced in the NYGM manual ? 3D tc = max tc.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon10.gif Just discovered the way to get a fix on the location of the object which cause the jump to tc 8 without getting a contact via hydro or visual. Go to mapview and move the mousepointer around ure sublocation upto a 50km range. If it moves over this object (sub/ship/plane) a lightgrey circle pops up with a time stamp and the general course enough info to close in to it for further inspection.

[Reece]

TC 512 and higher you will miss the aircraft!:yep: If I am running 256 or lower and aircraft is spotted my TC will drop back to zero (paused) this way I have plenty of time to react & know for a fact that an aircraft has been sighted.:up:

[q65]

I found it very hard to get around England to the Atlantic. One or 2 attacks by those Hurricanes and you have no Hull Intregrity left and you have to limp home. I have yet to get out of the North Sea and I'm was in June/July 1940. I enjoy NYGM but I found it this to be a very frustrating aspect to the game.

[nirwana]

If u only wanna get to the atlantic run with 1/3rd (2/3rd in a IXB/C) submerged during daytime. Thats what im doing ignoring any hostile targets on the way to the happy hrs 150km W of Ireland.

[Steeltrap]

If u only wanna get to the atlantic run with 1/3rd (2/3rd in a IXB/C) submerged during daytime. Thats what im doing ignoring any hostile targets on the way to the happy hrs 150km W of Ireland.

Well NYGM always prided itself on its 'no frills realism' - this, however, is completely over the top.

[Steeltrap]

PART II

Well I decided to do another run and see what happens.

Followed my usual course up the coast of Norway. I cut across to the NW, changing more westerly at the point of the continental shelf in AF76.

First contact came at a point some 600km from Scapa (I don't know where the nearest airfield is). I cras dived but still took 10% hull integrity loss.

Surfaced that night and proceeded west.

In AF75 I was attacked 3 times. The first was when there was only a start of light on the horizon (no part of the sun visible). Submerged for some hours and surfaced. Was attacked again within 40 minutes. Surfaced once sun had set. Was attacked within 3 minutes. Submerged again until 2100hrs.

Decided to try running further north. Pre-dawn found me at the boundary of AF71, 72 and 75. Again, attacked before sun had risen.

I was able to dive without any damage on the attacks after the first. Even light sea mist greatly reduces the distance at which aircraft are spotted.

It seems to me that this level of air vigilence/activity is totally excessive for that time of the war (we're talking September 1939). Worth noting, too, that some of these contacts were well outside the area marked on the map as being covered in 1939.

What will it be like in 1943?? Does anyone else think this level of activity is excessive to the point that NYGM's rightly famed 'emphasis on realism' is tarnished? I find it hard to accept I need to creep around submerged during daylight 600km from Scapa in 1939 unless I want to face the absolute certainty of repeated air attacks.

Comments?

[nirwana]

FYI: The extra thread from mid 41 are long range pbys which are equipped with searchlights for nightattacks but i can defeat them fairly easy at daytime. Now in late 42 i havnt encountered any medium/heavy bombers yet. As soon as available i switched to a french base and a IXb where the tough area around scotland with heavy fightercover is no issue.

[Stiebler]

This thread has raised two key issues of air cover in NYGM:

1. Why is machine-gum fire from aircraft so effective against a U-boat hull?
2. Why is there such strong air cover around the British Isles in 1939-1941?

The answers are as follows:
1. The machine-gun fire is effective in order to deter you from sitting on the surface to exchange gunfire with an attacking aircraft. You will never be sunk by gun fire within three aircraft overflights of the U-boat, but you will suffer some hull damage. Is that realistic? No. Is it realistic to sit on the surface to try to shoot down an aircraft for as long as it takes? No, no, no, no and again no. So we chose to force you to submerge, by inflicting hull damage if you stay on the surface too long.

2. The strong air cover by Hurricane fighter-bombers around Britain in 1939-1940 (actually, all the way to 1945) is scripted, not provided by airbases. Therefore air coverage by the Hurricanes remains the same throughout the war. The fact that it is scripted explains the regularity of these air patrols, which are historically justified close to Britain's coast. If you don't like being surprised and attacked by Hurricanes, then don't stay on the surface for so long (especially during daylight)!

Stiebler.

[Sailor Steve]

@ Stiebler: :rock:

[Steeltrap]

I have no issue with the cannon fire etc aspect. I agree totally that aircraft, especially in stock, needed to be more menacing. I have never fired an AA gun at an aircraft in any patrol in any career......

I do have an issue with the fact that you get attacked within 30 mins some 600-700km anywhere NE/N/NW of Scapa Flow.

At least now I understand why, but I don't believe it is justified to assume such a level of coverage. I would be very interested to look into materials about the extent of air cover tasked to searhing that area in that period.

At any rate, thanks for explaining the 'WHY'.

[Reece]

Well you could always edit the mis files,:yep: sorry Stiebler!:oops: