Kazuaki Shimazaki II
09-14-08, 09:14 AM
It was clear to Ketov that from communications there was certainly an ASW patrol aircraft overhead. Agafonov was growing anxious to receive new orders from Moscow. They were at twenty meters depth. It was nearing the time for their next broadcast. At this point, obtaining orders was vital. During their previous attempts to copy, they had failed. Their antenna was not completely free of short circuits, and consequently they had received nothing. Agafonov wanted to surface immediately with the sail awash and the antenna fully extended to try to receive the broadcast using high frequency to back up the ultra-low-frequency transmissions that were not always reliable in those latitudes. Ketov recommended against surfacing. The last thing he thought they needed was to be detected outright by the P2V Neptune, which he was certain was nearby. Earlier they had heard his sonobuoys, which were activated by the Julie explosions trying to triangulate their position. Ketov was certain that they had not gained solid contact or they would have called in a surface ship, one of the numerous destroyers that were working with the carrier Independence. However, Ketov could see that Agafonov was getting more and more nervous. Agafonov seemed certain that there would be vital new instructions for them on the broadcast. Ketov was less hopeful. They had come all that way in more than three weeks and had received minimal instructions other than the short directive canceling their track to Mariel and assigning them a small, twenty-five-mile-radius circle in which to patrol. It would be difficult to stay within the boundaries of the new patrol area, and they were curious why they were relegated to such a tight area.
Naturally, as Brigade Commander Agafonov was senior, Ketov was obliged to follow his orders unless the submarine commanding officer was certain they would hazard his command. Agafonov was relatively new aboard, at least in comparison with the time Ketov and most of his officers had served. They had commissioned the boat and knew her idiosyncrasies thoroughly. Agafonov decided that they should surface to copy the schedule. Ketov opposed strongly.
“Surface, ” Agafonov ordered.
“Brigade Commander, I believe we have an aircraft nearby. He will lock onto us for certain if we surface.” Ketov was not going to stand by and watch them get trapped.
“I'll check personally, ” Agafonov responded, and scrambled up the ladder to the navigation bridge, where the attack and commander's periscopes were located. Ketov watched the brigade commander scurry up the ladder into the main trunk while a petty officer opened the inner hatch. Water cascaded down into the command center as always when first opening that hatch. Ketov watched and got an uneasy feeling in his stomach. Granted they had been at close quarters, into each other's knickers for weeks, and naturally both felt a little compressed by the situation. However, Ketov knew Agafonov was not as certain of the situation as he was.
Ketov went to the navigation periscope, near the after bulkhead of the command center. He knew it had a better capability to observe zenith for navigation purposes; he often used it to spot aircraft. Ketov looked through the scope, saw nothing then, and waited for Agafonov's response.
“I see no contacts; the horizon and skies are clear, ” Agafonov called down on the sound-powered phones.
“Sir, I am certain there is an aircraft there—I observed it a few minutes ago. No, I don't see it now either, but it's likely still in the vicinity.”
“If there were an aircraft there I'd see it, ” Agafonov said. “Surface— that's an order!”
That was enough for Ketov. “Comrade Agafonov, relieve me of command of this submarine and I will make an entry to that effect in the ship's log. Navigator, bring me the log.” Ketov took the log from the navigator and made the entry “Brigade Commander Captain Second Rank Vitali Naumovich Agafonov relieved Captain Ryurik A. Ketov of command of submarine B-4.”
...
As soon as B-4 broke the surface, the lookouts spotted the Neptune aircraft about three miles ahead, but it was too late, and the aircraft flew toward them and began dropping grenades. The first explosive landed very close to the hull. The lights aboard went out and the engineer switched to emergency electric power while B-4 crash-dived to a hundred meters with lighting restored. Agafonov took charge and tried to evade. Ketov was sick at heart, but as a matter of principle, remained in his cabin.
...
For three hours Agafonov evaded the aircraft, but he failed, and each time he thought they had achieved an advantage of a few extra miles from the pursuing aircraft it would swoop down again for an update on their position. After three hours of futile maneuvering passed, Agafonov called Ketov back to the central command post.
“Captain Ketov, take command again.”
Ketov resumed command, elated that he had won the dispute. Ketov recalls that the confrontation was not as serious as it first sounds; such arguments happen often when senior unit commanders are embarked aboard ships. They normally can handle it, but the stress was enormous...
So, the crux is that the senior commander had a strong disagreement with the Captain on how best to deal with a situation. In the Russian Navy, when push came to shove, the Senior Commander has the right to relieve the Captain of his post and directly steer the ship. He can apparently also throw the ball back, almost as easily as a Captain handing things over to a OOD. This is apparently treated as something demi-common. And the right and limits is currently specified as Article 101 of the Russian Navy regulations.
How would this have been solved in your Navy? The West seems to have more of a "Captain = God" mentality and the senior commanders trust their captains more on average. On the other hand, giving the Captain carte blanche seems to violate Unity of Command, which is a principle in just about any military.
So how do you think this be solved? Of course, we are assuming that the Captain and Senior Commander can't mediate their differences.
1) Does the senior officer have no legal right to do this, and even in the hypothetical case that the Captain (in his opinion) is driving the ship to certain and un-necessary doom, is obliged to do nothing beyond giving strongly worded suggestions?
2) Does he only have the right to do this if he gets the backing of the rest of the officers that the Captain is no longer fit for command (similar to the cases when a XO relieves a Captain of command?)
3) Does he technically have a legal right to do this (buried somewhere in the regs), just that by tradition / culture he would never do that?
4) Does he have the right to do this, and if necessary he'll have done exactly what Agafonov did?
5) Other?
Thanks for the help.
Naturally, as Brigade Commander Agafonov was senior, Ketov was obliged to follow his orders unless the submarine commanding officer was certain they would hazard his command. Agafonov was relatively new aboard, at least in comparison with the time Ketov and most of his officers had served. They had commissioned the boat and knew her idiosyncrasies thoroughly. Agafonov decided that they should surface to copy the schedule. Ketov opposed strongly.
“Surface, ” Agafonov ordered.
“Brigade Commander, I believe we have an aircraft nearby. He will lock onto us for certain if we surface.” Ketov was not going to stand by and watch them get trapped.
“I'll check personally, ” Agafonov responded, and scrambled up the ladder to the navigation bridge, where the attack and commander's periscopes were located. Ketov watched the brigade commander scurry up the ladder into the main trunk while a petty officer opened the inner hatch. Water cascaded down into the command center as always when first opening that hatch. Ketov watched and got an uneasy feeling in his stomach. Granted they had been at close quarters, into each other's knickers for weeks, and naturally both felt a little compressed by the situation. However, Ketov knew Agafonov was not as certain of the situation as he was.
Ketov went to the navigation periscope, near the after bulkhead of the command center. He knew it had a better capability to observe zenith for navigation purposes; he often used it to spot aircraft. Ketov looked through the scope, saw nothing then, and waited for Agafonov's response.
“I see no contacts; the horizon and skies are clear, ” Agafonov called down on the sound-powered phones.
“Sir, I am certain there is an aircraft there—I observed it a few minutes ago. No, I don't see it now either, but it's likely still in the vicinity.”
“If there were an aircraft there I'd see it, ” Agafonov said. “Surface— that's an order!”
That was enough for Ketov. “Comrade Agafonov, relieve me of command of this submarine and I will make an entry to that effect in the ship's log. Navigator, bring me the log.” Ketov took the log from the navigator and made the entry “Brigade Commander Captain Second Rank Vitali Naumovich Agafonov relieved Captain Ryurik A. Ketov of command of submarine B-4.”
...
As soon as B-4 broke the surface, the lookouts spotted the Neptune aircraft about three miles ahead, but it was too late, and the aircraft flew toward them and began dropping grenades. The first explosive landed very close to the hull. The lights aboard went out and the engineer switched to emergency electric power while B-4 crash-dived to a hundred meters with lighting restored. Agafonov took charge and tried to evade. Ketov was sick at heart, but as a matter of principle, remained in his cabin.
...
For three hours Agafonov evaded the aircraft, but he failed, and each time he thought they had achieved an advantage of a few extra miles from the pursuing aircraft it would swoop down again for an update on their position. After three hours of futile maneuvering passed, Agafonov called Ketov back to the central command post.
“Captain Ketov, take command again.”
Ketov resumed command, elated that he had won the dispute. Ketov recalls that the confrontation was not as serious as it first sounds; such arguments happen often when senior unit commanders are embarked aboard ships. They normally can handle it, but the stress was enormous...
So, the crux is that the senior commander had a strong disagreement with the Captain on how best to deal with a situation. In the Russian Navy, when push came to shove, the Senior Commander has the right to relieve the Captain of his post and directly steer the ship. He can apparently also throw the ball back, almost as easily as a Captain handing things over to a OOD. This is apparently treated as something demi-common. And the right and limits is currently specified as Article 101 of the Russian Navy regulations.
How would this have been solved in your Navy? The West seems to have more of a "Captain = God" mentality and the senior commanders trust their captains more on average. On the other hand, giving the Captain carte blanche seems to violate Unity of Command, which is a principle in just about any military.
So how do you think this be solved? Of course, we are assuming that the Captain and Senior Commander can't mediate their differences.
1) Does the senior officer have no legal right to do this, and even in the hypothetical case that the Captain (in his opinion) is driving the ship to certain and un-necessary doom, is obliged to do nothing beyond giving strongly worded suggestions?
2) Does he only have the right to do this if he gets the backing of the rest of the officers that the Captain is no longer fit for command (similar to the cases when a XO relieves a Captain of command?)
3) Does he technically have a legal right to do this (buried somewhere in the regs), just that by tradition / culture he would never do that?
4) Does he have the right to do this, and if necessary he'll have done exactly what Agafonov did?
5) Other?
Thanks for the help.