Bring on the Black Holes !

[Blacklight]

They're fireing up the LHC tomorrow. A friend emailed me an article about it (And an opposing viewpoint article as well) :D
I personally can't wait to see what this machine discovers. :up:

LHC First Beam Tomorrow 10 September 2008
http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/Welcome.html

World's Biggest Physics Experiment Moves Closer to Completion
By Art Chimes
Washington, DC
08 September 2008

http://www.voanews.com/english/images/CERN-LHC_cms-detector.jpg..
Technician on work platform inspects the massive CMS detector, which tracks particle collisions at CERN's Large Hadron Collider

The biggest science experiment on Earth is expected to take a big step forward on Wednesday. As we hear from VOA's Art Chimes, an international team of scientists is getting ready to fire up the Large Hadron Collider, even as skeptics fear it could have disastrous consequences.


Scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, better known by its French acronym, CERN, are planning to send a beam of particles racing around the 27-kilometer ring of the Large Hadron Collider for the first time.


The LHC, as it's known, is the world's most powerful particle accelerator. CERN physicist Tejinder Virdee says it's designed to explore some of the most fundamental questions in physics.


"At the end of this, it is possible that our view of nature, of how the nature works at the fundamental level, would be altered in the same way, for example, that Einstein had altered our view of space and time about 100 years ago," he said. "So the scientific results could be extremely important.
"

The Large Hadron Collider is housed in a circular tunnel, buried under the French-Swiss border just outside Geneva.


Beams of subatomic protons and other particles will zip around the ring, accelerated up to nearly the speed of light by some 1,800 superconducting magnet systems.


Protons will reach an energy level of 7 trillion electron volts, seven times more powerful than in any existing accelerator. The project has cost an estimated $5.8 billion.


When the LHC goes into full operation, scientists will aim beams of particles directly at each other. When particles collide — up to 600 million times a second — special sensors will detect and record the collisions, and a network of computers will analyze the vast amount of data generated.


It's designed in part to mimic conditions present at the beginning of the universe, the Big Bang, almost 15 billion years ago.


Researchers will also be looking for a subatomic particle known as the Higgs Boson. The Standard Model of particle physics predicts that it exists… but it has never been seen. CERN physicist Mike Seymour says the elusive Higgs Boson has a nickname that conveys its importance.


"People call it 'God's particle' because it really has a very important central role in our whole theory of what everything is made of, of matter," Seymour explained. "Because without the Higgs particle we wouldn't be able to understand why any of the elementary particles have masses. The more we discover about the Higgs mechanism, the more we will understand about the dynamics of the early universe.
"

As scientists and technicians prepare to send a particle beam all the way around the LHC, some critics have wondered whether attempts to reproduce conditions at the beginning of the universe may create a black hole that could destroy the Earth.


A CERN team that studied the matter concluded there was no danger of that happening, and lawsuits filed by opponents have not succeeded in stopping work on the LHC.


CERN physicist John Ellis says simply, the skeptics are wrong. "LHC is only going to reproduce what nature does every second, it has been doing for billions of years, and all of these astronomical bodies including the earth and the sun, they are still here. So there really is no problem.
"

Well, let's hope not. The first beam of particles is set to make that 27-kilometer trip around the Large Hadron Collider on Wednesday.


-----------------------------------------
Assessing Black Hole Risk
By Anthony O'Donnell
Sep 8, 2008 at 12:39 PM ET

Technology is great for modeling risk if one starts with the right assumptions. But sometimes those assumptions are hard to come by. Take the admittedly extreme example from this CNN story. Some people think what a certain small group of scientists is about to do could destroy the world.


The fear is that the world’s largest particle accelerator, about to be activated several hundred feet below the French/Swiss border, could cause a black hole that could swallow up the earth. The accelerator will attempt to replicate the conditions of less than a millionth of a second after the Big Bang, according to the article, and some people have evidently taken legal action to have the experiment stopped.


Physicists acknowledge that the accelerator could, in theory, create black holes, but one John Huth, quoted in the article, says assertions about the possibility of earth-swallowing black holes are “baloney.
”

The article reports that Huth said in a recent interview that even if the accelerator created small black holes, and even if one such black hole were stable, “it could just pass through the earth without being detected or without interacting at all.
” Said Huth:

“The gravitational force is so weak that you’d have to wait many, many, many, many, many lifetimes of the universe before one of these things could [get] big enough to even get close to being a problem.
”
That sounds more reassuring than the reporter’s conditional “could” in the paragraph above, but it points to the need of underwriters to rely on specialists in order to adequately assess risks.


For my part, I’m willing to adopt Huth’s insouciance and bet any sum of money that the world won’t in fact disappear into a void when the accelerator is turned on.
Any takers?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No danger from creating a black hole? What do they take us for?
Sep 9 2008 By Richard McComb

Be afraid. Be very afraid. When anyone, particularly a scientist, tells you there is nothing to worry about, you know damn well there is only one thing to do: worry.


We are now only hours from the big switch-on of the Large Hadron Collider.
Sounds harmless, doesn’t it, the Large Hadron Collider, like something you might find inside your Dyson or under the bonnet of your car, next to the “big end”?

It is also strangely evocative of flared-denim, bearded 70’s rock groups, like Van der Graaf Generator and Bachman Turner Overdrive: “And here they are, the band of the moment, smashing their way – quite literally – to the top of the charts.
Give a big Top of the Pops welcome to Large Hadron Collider … ”

The Large Hadron Collider (not to be confused with the Large Hardon Collider) has been called the Large Hadron Collider for good reason, namely not to scare the living bejesus out of us.


Because if it was given its real name – Professor Doom’s Big Scary Machine That’s Going To Re-create Black Holes And We’re All Going To Disappear Into Them And Die, Arrrgggghhhh – no one would sanction £3.5 billion of taxpayers’ money on it.


But this is exactly what we have done. Somewhere, straddling Switzerland and France, deep underground, buried under mountains and lots of cows, the eggiest egg-heads in the world have built a 17-mile tunnel in which they plan to experiment with their very dark materials.


The Large Hadron Collider is so big even the Abu Dhabi royal family would have to check with their bank manager before buying it. Astonishingly, the technology amassed within its subterranean corridors boasts faster computing power than the brains of Prof Stephen Hawking and Dame Carol Vorderman put together.


Inside its deep, and we can only hope, jolly well reinforced vaults, scientists hope to unlock some of the secrets of the universe in what is being called the world’s biggest physics experiment. The boffinry going on in here, from tomorrow, is baffling. And to someone banned from taking O-level physics (by the basketball teacher – go figure!) this stuff is baffling to the power of E = mc2, cross-reference McComb’s Law of Dimitivity {S+ Akc3/4hG, Birmimgham 2008}.


The Large Hadron Collider – let’s call it Colin, for short – will re-create the conditions just after the Big Bang, when the universe went pear-shaped. To do this, Colin will fire tiny stuff, smaller than dinner-party cheese footballs, around magnetic tunnels and will study what happens when they smack into each other. You or I, of course, could provide the answer to this taxing question for nothing. (Answer: there will be a lot of squishy cheese on the walls, figuratively speaking.
)

However, the crazy guys at the European Organisation for Nuclear Research (CERN) appear to be aiming for a slightly higher level of analytical sophistication and will be looking into the very nature of the cheesy goo, otherwise known to Dr Strangelove and chums as quark-gluon plasma.


CERN wants to know why some of this super-hot Big Bang fondue, so to speak, was destined to become inter-galactic cheese strings, while other bits became extra-terrestrial ready-prepared sandwich-size gouda slices and earth-bound Dairylea Lunchables.


This isn’t too alarming, until one considers the collisions in Colin will spark temperatures 100,000 times hotter than the centre of the Sun. Haven’t these people heard of global warming? This news will not go down well among the flooded residents of Frankly, Bournbrook and Morpeth, I can tell you.


What’s more, there will be 600 million of these collisions EVERY SECOND. Sure, there will be computer back-up but if Karl-Heinz blinks he will miss it. And keep missing it, gazillions of times.


Then there is the small, or rather whopping, matter of re-creating black holes. Now, I’ve read Prof Hawking’s A Briefer History of Time, so I know a look-see at a black hole only comes with a one-way ticket, no refunds.


The CERN boffins say they are only going to make lickle-ickle black holes, about the size of a midget’s bucket, so there will be no harm done.


The mad fools.Watch them disappear into the vortex, just like Oddjob in Goldfinger when he gets sucked out of the plane.


That’s what happens when you go near a black hole.


Boom! The clue’s in the name, stupid: they’re black, and they’re holes.


There is also a host of other evidential material that points to the dangers of messing with nature, matter and anti-matter, like Honey! I Shrunk The Kids and Dr Watt’s Frankenstein monster in Carry on Screaming.


Mark my words, if they start messing with black holes, I have a warning for the scientists from the prescient Bachman Turner Overdrive: “You ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
”

[SteamWake]

There only going to fire it in 'one direction' with no particle collision.

You will have to wait a few months for armageddon Im afraid.

[Letum]

There will be no black holes.
None. :shifty:

No professional at CERN has ever said that it is the least bit likely AFAIK.

It may not be "impossible", but that only because many aspects of the experiment
are a leap into the dark.


It's just a interesting story void of understanding created so that people can get
excited about the project with out investing any real time or effort into learning
what is really going on.

[Stealth Hunter]

Well, look at the bright side: if a black hole does form, then we'll die pretty quick... or be reassembled in another universe, although after reading about white holes, it's more likely that our matter and the matter of everything on the planet and in the solar system would be sucked up and then reprocessed and spit out in a few million or billion years via a white hole... which really isn't that bad of a deal.:lol:

[Blacklight]

Here's the actual safety finding for the LHC dumbed down to understandable human levels. :D The safety of the LHC

The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) can achieve an energy that no other particle accelerators have reached before, but Nature routinely produces higher energies in cosmic-ray collisions. Concerns about the safety of whatever may be created in such high-energy particle collisions have been addressed for many years. In the light of new experimental data and theoretical understanding, the LHC Safety Assessment Group (LSAG) has updated a review of the analysis made in 2003 by the LHC Safety Study Group, a group of independent scientists.
LSAG reaffirms and extends the conclusions of the 2003 report that LHC collisions present no danger and that there are no reasons for concern. Whatever the LHC will do, Nature has already done many times over during the lifetime of the Earth and other astronomical bodies. The LSAG report has been reviewed and endorsed by CERN’s Scientific Policy Committee, a group of external scientists that advises CERN’s governing body, its Council.
The following summarizes the main arguments given in the LSAG report (http://cern.ch/lsag/LSAG-Report.pdf). Anyone interested in more details is encouraged to consult it directly, and the technical scientific papers to which it refers.

Cosmic rays

The LHC, like other particle accelerators, recreates the natural phenomena of cosmic rays under controlled laboratory conditions, enabling them to be studied in more detail. Cosmic rays are particles produced in outer space, some of which are accelerated to energies far exceeding those of the LHC. The energy and the rate at which they reach the Earth’s atmosphere have been measured in experiments for some 70 years. Over the past billions of years, Nature has already generated on Earth as many collisions as about a million LHC experiments – and the planet still exists. Astronomers observe an enormous number of larger astronomical bodies throughout the Universe, all of which are also struck by cosmic rays. The Universe as a whole conducts more than 10 million million LHC-like experiments per second. The possibility of any dangerous consequences contradicts what astronomers see - stars and galaxies still exist.

Microscopic black holes

Nature forms black holes when certain stars, much larger than our Sun, collapse on themselves at the end of their lives. They concentrate a very large amount of matter in a very small space. Speculations about microscopic black holes at the LHC refer to particles produced in the collisions of pairs of protons, each of which has an energy comparable to that of a mosquito in flight. Astronomical black holes are much heavier than anything that could be produced at the LHC.
According to the well-established properties of gravity, described by Einstein’s relativity, it is impossible for microscopic black holes to be produced at the LHC. There are, however, some speculative theories that predict the production of such particles at the LHC. All these theories predict that these particles would disintegrate immediately. Black holes, therefore, would have no time to start accreting matter and to cause macroscopic effects.
Although stable microscopic black holes are not expected in theory, study of the consequences of their production by cosmic rays shows that they would be harmless. Collisions at the LHC differ from cosmic-ray collisions with astronomical bodies like the Earth in that new particles produced in LHC collisions tend to move more slowly than those produced by cosmic rays. Stable black holes could be either electrically charged or neutral. If they had electric charge, they would interact with ordinary matter and be stopped while traversing the Earth, whether produced by cosmic rays or the LHC. The fact that the Earth is still here rules out the possibility that cosmic rays or the LHC could produce dangerous charged microscopic black holes. If stable microscopic black holes had no electric charge, their interactions with the Earth would be very weak. Those produced by cosmic rays would pass harmlessly through the Earth into space, whereas those produced by the LHC could remain on Earth. However, there are much larger and denser astronomical bodies than the Earth in the Universe. Black holes produced in cosmic-ray collisions with bodies such as neutron stars and white dwarf stars would be brought to rest. The continued existence of such dense bodies, as well as the Earth, rules out the possibility of the LHC producing any dangerous black holes.

Strangelets

Strangelet is the term given to a hypothetical microscopic lump of ‘strange matter’ containing almost equal numbers of particles called up, down and strange quarks. According to most theoretical work, strangelets should change to ordinary matter within a thousand-millionth of a second. But could strangelets coalesce with ordinary matter and change it to strange matter? This question was first raised before the start up of the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, RHIC, in 2000 in the United States. A study at the time showed that there was no cause for concern, and RHIC has now run for eight years, searching for strangelets without detecting any. At times, the LHC will run with beams of heavy nuclei, just as RHIC does. The LHC’s beams will have more energy than RHIC, but this makes it even less likely that strangelets could form. It is difficult for strange matter to stick together in the high temperatures produced by such colliders, rather as ice does not form in hot water. In addition, quarks will be more dilute at the LHC than at RHIC, making it more difficult to assemble strange matter. Strangelet production at the LHC is therefore less likely than at RHIC, and experience there has already validated the arguments that strangelets cannot be produced.

Vacuum bubbles

There have been speculations that the Universe is not in its most stable configuration, and that perturbations caused by the LHC could tip it into a more stable state, called a vacuum bubble, in which we could not exist. If the LHC could do this, then so could cosmic-ray collisions. Since such vacuum bubbles have not been produced anywhere in the visible Universe, they will not be made by the LHC.

Magnetic monopoles

Magnetic monopoles are hypothetical particles with a single magnetic charge, either a north pole or a south pole. Some speculative theories suggest that, if they do exist, magnetic monopoles could cause protons to decay. These theories also say that such monopoles would be too heavy to be produced at the LHC. Nevertheless, if the magnetic monopoles were light enough to appear at the LHC, cosmic rays striking the Earth’s atmosphere would already be making them, and the Earth would very effectively stop and trap them. The continued existence of the Earth and other astronomical bodies therefore rules out dangerous proton-eating magnetic monopoles light enough to be produced at the LHC.

Reports and reviews

Studies into the safety of high-energy collisions inside particle accelerators have been conducted in both Europe and the United States by physicists who are not themselves involved in experiments at the LHC. Their analyses have been reviewed by the expert scientific community, which agrees with their conclusion that particle collisions in accelerators are safe. CERN has mandated a group of particle physicists, also not involved in the LHC experiments, to monitor the latest speculations about LHC collisions.

Download the Comments on claimed risks from metastable black holes (http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0808/0808.4087v1.pdf)
Download the Statement from the Executive Board of the Division of Particles and Fields of the American Physical Society (http://www.aps.org/units/dpf/governance/reports/upload/lhc_saftey_statement.pdf) (APS)
Download this summary of the LSAG (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-en.pdf) report. Translations are available in the following languages : fr (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-fr.pdf) de (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-de.pdf) el (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-el.pdf) es (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-es.pdf) [/URL][URL="http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-it.pdf"]it (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-el.pdf) jp (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-jp.pdf) no (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-no.pdf) pl (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-pl.pdf) ru (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-ru.pdf).
Download the LSAG report (http://cern.ch/lsag/LSAG-Report.pdf) (2008)
Download the specialist report published in Europe (http://doc.cern.ch/yellowrep/2003/2003-001/p1.pdf) (2003)
Download the specialist report published in the United States (http://doc.cern.ch//archive/electronic/hep-ph/9910/9910333.pdf) (1999)
Download expert comment (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/NicolaiComment-en.pdf) on speculations raised by Professor Otto Roessler about the production of black holes at the LHC
Download further expert comment (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/NicolaiFurtherComment-en.pdf) on speculations raised by Professor Otto Roessler about the production of black holes at the LHC
Download another independent assessment (http://arxiv.org/pdf/0807.3349) of the safety of black hole scenarios at the LHC

[Stealth Hunter]

Excellent! It's good to know that things are coming along so swiftly.

[Platapus]

Welcome to my underground lair.

My plan is simple.

First, we build the world's largest atom smasher

Second, we threaten to destroy the world by making the first man-made black hole unless the world pays us

<zoom in for close up>

One million dollars!!! :|\\

[Rhodes]

Me and some friends of mine have a massive "hit the bars" tonight because tomorrow is the end of the world... :-j

[Oberon]

1) Assemble LHC
2) Turn it on
3) ????
4) Profit!

[SteamWake]

1) Assemble LHC
2) Turn it on
3) ????
4) Profit!

OMG an EvE fan....

The world is comming to an end after all.

[Mike@UK]

When I first read that safety report I thought it said "Magnetic Monopolies", as if the world was about to be destroyed by some kind of cheap service station magnetic "Travel Monopoly" board. :huh:

[Mush Martin]

Here's the actual safety finding for the LHC dumbed down to understandable human levels. :D The safety of the LHC

The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) can achieve an energy that no other particle accelerators have reached before, but Nature routinely produces higher energies in cosmic-ray collisions. Concerns about the safety of whatever may be created in such high-energy particle collisions have been addressed for many years. In the light of new experimental data and theoretical understanding, the LHC Safety Assessment Group (LSAG) has updated a review of the analysis made in 2003 by the LHC Safety Study Group, a group of independent scientists.
LSAG reaffirms and extends the conclusions of the 2003 report that LHC collisions present no danger and that there are no reasons for concern. Whatever the LHC will do, Nature has already done many times over during the lifetime of the Earth and other astronomical bodies. The LSAG report has been reviewed and endorsed by CERN’s Scientific Policy Committee, a group of external scientists that advises CERN’s governing body, its Council.
The following summarizes the main arguments given in the LSAG report (http://cern.ch/lsag/LSAG-Report.pdf). Anyone interested in more details is encouraged to consult it directly, and the technical scientific papers to which it refers.

Cosmic rays

The LHC, like other particle accelerators, recreates the natural phenomena of cosmic rays under controlled laboratory conditions, enabling them to be studied in more detail. Cosmic rays are particles produced in outer space, some of which are accelerated to energies far exceeding those of the LHC. The energy and the rate at which they reach the Earth’s atmosphere have been measured in experiments for some 70 years. Over the past billions of years, Nature has already generated on Earth as many collisions as about a million LHC experiments – and the planet still exists. Astronomers observe an enormous number of larger astronomical bodies throughout the Universe, all of which are also struck by cosmic rays. The Universe as a whole conducts more than 10 million million LHC-like experiments per second. The possibility of any dangerous consequences contradicts what astronomers see - stars and galaxies still exist.

Microscopic black holes

Nature forms black holes when certain stars, much larger than our Sun, collapse on themselves at the end of their lives. They concentrate a very large amount of matter in a very small space. Speculations about microscopic black holes at the LHC refer to particles produced in the collisions of pairs of protons, each of which has an energy comparable to that of a mosquito in flight. Astronomical black holes are much heavier than anything that could be produced at the LHC.
According to the well-established properties of gravity, described by Einstein’s relativity, it is impossible for microscopic black holes to be produced at the LHC. There are, however, some speculative theories that predict the production of such particles at the LHC. All these theories predict that these particles would disintegrate immediately. Black holes, therefore, would have no time to start accreting matter and to cause macroscopic effects.
Although stable microscopic black holes are not expected in theory, study of the consequences of their production by cosmic rays shows that they would be harmless. Collisions at the LHC differ from cosmic-ray collisions with astronomical bodies like the Earth in that new particles produced in LHC collisions tend to move more slowly than those produced by cosmic rays. Stable black holes could be either electrically charged or neutral. If they had electric charge, they would interact with ordinary matter and be stopped while traversing the Earth, whether produced by cosmic rays or the LHC. The fact that the Earth is still here rules out the possibility that cosmic rays or the LHC could produce dangerous charged microscopic black holes. If stable microscopic black holes had no electric charge, their interactions with the Earth would be very weak. Those produced by cosmic rays would pass harmlessly through the Earth into space, whereas those produced by the LHC could remain on Earth. However, there are much larger and denser astronomical bodies than the Earth in the Universe. Black holes produced in cosmic-ray collisions with bodies such as neutron stars and white dwarf stars would be brought to rest. The continued existence of such dense bodies, as well as the Earth, rules out the possibility of the LHC producing any dangerous black holes.

Strangelets

Strangelet is the term given to a hypothetical microscopic lump of ‘strange matter’ containing almost equal numbers of particles called up, down and strange quarks. According to most theoretical work, strangelets should change to ordinary matter within a thousand-millionth of a second. But could strangelets coalesce with ordinary matter and change it to strange matter? This question was first raised before the start up of the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, RHIC, in 2000 in the United States. A study at the time showed that there was no cause for concern, and RHIC has now run for eight years, searching for strangelets without detecting any. At times, the LHC will run with beams of heavy nuclei, just as RHIC does. The LHC’s beams will have more energy than RHIC, but this makes it even less likely that strangelets could form. It is difficult for strange matter to stick together in the high temperatures produced by such colliders, rather as ice does not form in hot water. In addition, quarks will be more dilute at the LHC than at RHIC, making it more difficult to assemble strange matter. Strangelet production at the LHC is therefore less likely than at RHIC, and experience there has already validated the arguments that strangelets cannot be produced.

Vacuum bubbles

There have been speculations that the Universe is not in its most stable configuration, and that perturbations caused by the LHC could tip it into a more stable state, called a vacuum bubble, in which we could not exist. If the LHC could do this, then so could cosmic-ray collisions. Since such vacuum bubbles have not been produced anywhere in the visible Universe, they will not be made by the LHC.

Magnetic monopoles

Magnetic monopoles are hypothetical particles with a single magnetic charge, either a north pole or a south pole. Some speculative theories suggest that, if they do exist, magnetic monopoles could cause protons to decay. These theories also say that such monopoles would be too heavy to be produced at the LHC. Nevertheless, if the magnetic monopoles were light enough to appear at the LHC, cosmic rays striking the Earth’s atmosphere would already be making them, and the Earth would very effectively stop and trap them. The continued existence of the Earth and other astronomical bodies therefore rules out dangerous proton-eating magnetic monopoles light enough to be produced at the LHC.

Reports and reviews

Studies into the safety of high-energy collisions inside particle accelerators have been conducted in both Europe and the United States by physicists who are not themselves involved in experiments at the LHC. Their analyses have been reviewed by the expert scientific community, which agrees with their conclusion that particle collisions in accelerators are safe. CERN has mandated a group of particle physicists, also not involved in the LHC experiments, to monitor the latest speculations about LHC collisions.
Download the Comments on claimed risks from metastable black holes (http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0808/0808.4087v1.pdf)
Download the Statement from the Executive Board of the Division of Particles and Fields of the American Physical Society (http://www.aps.org/units/dpf/governance/reports/upload/lhc_saftey_statement.pdf) (APS)
Download this summary of the LSAG (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-en.pdf) report. Translations are available in the following languages : fr (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-fr.pdf) de (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-de.pdf) el (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-el.pdf) es (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-es.pdf) it (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-it.pdf) jp (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-jp.pdf) no (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-no.pdf) pl (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-pl.pdf) ru (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/LSAGSummaryReport2008-ru.pdf).
Download the LSAG report (http://cern.ch/lsag/LSAG-Report.pdf) (2008)
Download the specialist report published in Europe (http://doc.cern.ch/yellowrep/2003/2003-001/p1.pdf) (2003)
Download the specialist report published in the United States (http://doc.cern.ch//archive/electronic/hep-ph/9910/9910333.pdf) (1999)
Download expert comment (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/NicolaiComment-en.pdf) on speculations raised by Professor Otto Roessler about the production of black holes at the LHC
Download further expert comment (http://environmental-impact.web.cern.ch/environmental-impact/Objects/LHCSafety/NicolaiFurtherComment-en.pdf) on speculations raised by Professor Otto Roessler about the production of black holes at the LHC
Download another independent assessment (http://arxiv.org/pdf/0807.3349) of the safety of black hole scenarios at the LHC

Good post.:up:

[Wolfehunter]

Well, look at the bright side: if a black hole does form, then we'll die pretty quick... or be reassembled in another universe, although after reading about white holes, it's more likely that our matter and the matter of everything on the planet and in the solar system would be sucked up and then reprocessed and spit out in a few million or billion years via a white hole... which really isn't that bad of a deal.:lol:It will happen very quickly thats for sure.:dead: I hope they don't screwup... I won't be able to exact my revenge on them if they do.:-?

[mrbeast]

Welcome to my underground lair.

My plan is simple.

First, we build the world's largest atom smasher

Second, we threaten to destroy the world by making the first man-made black hole unless the world pays us

<zoom in for close up>

One million dollars!!! :|\\

Do you call this plan...........'The Alan Parsons Project' by any chance?

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2808/drevilyv1.jpg

[Wolfehunter]

Welcome to my underground lair.

My plan is simple.

First, we build the world's largest atom smasher

Second, we threaten to destroy the world by making the first man-made black hole unless the world pays us

<zoom in for close up>

One million dollars!!! :|\\

Do you call this plan...........'The Alan Parsons Project' by any chance?

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2808/drevilyv1.jpgWasn't it call the death star or the preparation-H? lol Maybe Dr. Evil is the on in charge of the operation? :rotfl:

[Letum]

No one let me forget.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=941514&postcount=13

;)

[baggygreen]

I know that the chances are said to be small for the end of the world, and thats great.

I know theres a lot of priceless information to be gained, which could even help us see my dream of much more expansive space travel in my lifetime.

Potentially we'll be able to figure out a lot more things we dont even know we dont know yet.

But none of the above stops me from feeling uneasy.. if only because the scientists are basing their statements on hypotheticals, about things we assume to exist (ie dark matter) and we know nothing of the nature of them.

I know we need to do the experiment as a species, thirst for knowledge and development and all that, but im still uneasy..

[mrbeast]

No one let me forget.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=941514&postcount=13

;)

Wow, how could you forget that Letum!? :huh:

[Mush Martin]

I know that the chances are said to be small for the end of the world, and thats great.

I know theres a lot of priceless information to be gained, which could even help us see my dream of much more expansive space travel in my lifetime.

Potentially we'll be able to figure out a lot more things we dont even know we dont know yet.

But none of the above stops me from feeling uneasy.. if only because the scientists are basing their statements on hypotheticals, about things we assume to exist (ie dark matter) and we know nothing of the nature of them.

I know we need to do the experiment as a species, thirst for knowledge and development and all that, but im still uneasy..
consider that the containment of microfusion by a quantum singularity
in a unit the size of a chevy van is the eventual possibility.
time....time....tick,tick,ticking........hmmm (wanders off.):hmm:

[baggygreen]

i think my brain just popped mush!:doh:

[Mush Martin]

i think my brain just popped mush!:doh:

That was sort of the idea BG :rotfl:

[SUBMAN1]

There will be no black holes.
None. :shifty:

No professional at CERN has ever said that it is the least bit likely AFAIK.

It may not be "impossible", but that only because many aspects of the experiment
are a leap into the dark.


It's just a interesting story void of understanding created so that people can get
excited about the project with out investing any real time or effort into learning
what is really going on.I'll be expecting your $10 at some charity the moment they do create black holes. Probability is 99%.

-S

[Task Force]

Nice knowing ya if something does happen, Hopefully they have SubSim, Computers, and silent hunter on the otherside.:rotfl:

[Letum]

There will be no black holes.
None. :shifty:

No professional at CERN has ever said that it is the least bit likely AFAIK.

It may not be "impossible", but that only because many aspects of the experiment
are a leap into the dark.


It's just a interesting story void of understanding created so that people can get
excited about the project with out investing any real time or effort into learning
what is really going on.I'll be expecting your $10 at some charity the moment they do create black holes. Probability is 99%.

-S

Says who!
Give me a credible source.

[bookworm_020]

If this means I Don't have to pay my credit card bill and my home loan can be let go, I'm all for it!:D

Till then I'll just slave away to pay the bills!

[UnderseaLcpl]

no one would sanction £3.5 billion of taxpayers’ money on it.



That is an awful lot of money. Wouldn't that money be better spent in the hands of the people?

[Wolfehunter]

:hmm: You know guys if all hell breaks loose this might be the last time where together...:arrgh!: Were did I put that special drink.... :damn:

[baggygreen]

i think my brain just popped mush!:doh:

That was sort of the idea BG :rotfl:owwwwwch:rotfl:

[headcase]

no one would sanction £3.5 billion of taxpayers’ money on it.


That is an awful lot of money. Wouldn't that money be better spent in the hands of the people?


Yep it's a lot of money. Buy an unimaginable pile of shoes, booze, and things. But the hands of the people don't make it to the moon, develop new cancer treatments, and make Scotty's transporter a reality. But if all of us shell out a couple three hundred a year and let the "Eggheads" do their thing it's amazing what we get in return. I myself just cant imagine how much money that is. But good base scientific research always more than pays for itself in the log run.


Now enough of being Serious. More fearmongering! THE WORLD IS ENDING!! DRINK BIG!!!

[Skybird]

It's underway.

I'm still here. But I wonder if you all are real, or just memories that turned into my living hallucinations!? :-?

Don't say anything. I know I only fantasize that you are speaking.

Where am I...? :roll:

+++++++++++++

science...
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157516/output/print

... and
(inevitably) politics:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514/output/print

[darius359au]

Hopefully one of the Research assistants isn't called Gordon Freeman
Especially after someone on another forum found this http://lhc-hl-lh.ytmnd.com/

"Wake up Mr Freeman....Wake up and smell the..Ashes"

:o:rotfl::rotfl:

[joea]

It's underway.

I'm still here. But I wonder if you all are real, or just memories that turned into my living hallucinations!? :-?

Don't say anything. I know I only fantasize that you are speaking.

Where am I...? :roll:



I'm not a hallucination, YOU are.

Uhhh unless we both are. :doh:

Didn't "you" say that "I" im (is?) an illusion.

:damn: :88)

[Zero Niner]

How about this? LHC really *is* Black Mesa... :D
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3207/2817608510_01eaa629ea_o.jpg
:rotfl:

[Rhodes]

So the LHC is switch on with that small lever???:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

[Falkirion]

The end of the world was a lie:D... Just like the cake:cry:

[STEED]

Help we're all going to die but not for another two months, as if. :doh:

[darius359au]

How about this? LHC really *is* Black Mesa... :D
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3207/2817608510_01eaa629ea_o.jpg
:rotfl:

Oh Cr*p , thats it Im stocking up on Crowbars :o

[Skybird]

Help we're all going to die but not for another two months, as if. :doh:

An optimistically so-called "friend" once talked me into trying Swedish Sürströmming. I know that since the first smell I am already living in the afterlife. :lol:

Will this machine make us all look like sürströmming?

[Fish]

They did it. :yep:

Live webcast: http://webcast.cern.ch/

[UnderseaLcpl]

Yep it's a lot of money. Buy an unimaginable pile of shoes, booze, and things. But the hands of the people don't make it to the moon, develop new cancer treatments, and make Scotty's transporter a reality. But if all of us shell out a couple three hundred a year and let the "Eggheads" do their thing it's amazing what we get in return. I myself just cant imagine how much money that is. But good base scientific research always more than pays for itself in the log run.


I was referring to private firms having more money for research and development, amongst other things. While one cannot dispute that state-funded research has produced some amazing things, private research tends to be more effecient and practical.

Actually, more money is provided by charity and comercial cancer research than is provided by the government, and it doesn't cost billions of taxpayer dollars.

And while it is nice that NASA got people on the moon, how did that help us, exactly? Were the benefits worth the 135 billion dollars (inflation-adjusted) that were spent on it? Not to mention the hundreds of billions invested in NASAs other programs and administration over the years?

Commercialization of space and the research to do so is a far more attractive option IMO.

However, you do have a point. A lot of beneficial products have been derived from defense research, and seeing as how defense is generally an integral function of government, I would support research like this for defense applications, to some degree.

Are you happy with your government, headcase? Are they efficient and effective?
Would you really trust them to allocate funding to the proper research initiatives?

Private research has to produce results. If it doesn't, it loses funding and it goes away until someone who can produce results comes along, or technology makes obtaining results more feasible.

State research needs only to convince a budget committee that they can produce something. And if they don't produce results they just take more of your money, or increase the burden you bear in the form of public debt and inflation.

So, wouldn't it be better if you could support research initiatives that you favor by investing in companies that pursue them, while letting me invest in those that I favor?

The alternative is to let some bureaucrat make the decision for both of us. And don't forget that there are much larger (and richer) entities who also have your representatives' ears.

Your thoughts?

[UnderseaLcpl]

How about this? LHC really *is* Black Mesa... :D





Oh screw that:rotfl:
I'm investing in Aperture Science.:D

[Mush Martin]

And while it is nice that NASA got people on the moon, how did that help us, exactly? Were the benefits worth the 135 billion dollars (inflation-adjusted) that were spent on it? Not to mention the hundreds of billions invested in NASAs other programs and administration over the years?

Gps, weather mapping radars, epribs, oceoanographic and biographic
global surveys. international cross cultural communications, Tang


Commercialization of space and the research to do so is a far more attractive option IMO.

However, you do have a point. A lot of beneficial products have been derived from defense research, and seeing as how defense is generally an integral function of government, I would support research like this for defense applications, to some degree.

radar, radar detectors, scuba, pennicilin, space launch vehicles.
nuclear power ............


Are you happy with your government, headcase? Are they efficient and effective?
Would you really trust them to allocate funding to the proper research initiatives?
not always, the road to hell is paved by the self justified.

Private research has to produce results. If it doesn't, it loses funding and it goes away until someone who can produce results comes along, or technology makes obtaining results more feasible.

State research needs only to convince a budget committee that they can produce something. And if they don't produce results they just take more of your money, or increase the burden you bear in the form of public debt and inflation.

So, wouldn't it be better if you could support research initiatives that you favor by investing in companies that pursue them, while letting me invest in those that I favor?

The alternative is to let some bureaucrat make the decision for both of us. And don't forget that there are much larger (and richer) entities who also have your representatives' ears.

Your thoughts?
my thoughts are that a balance between the two needs exist
Corporate life motivates people to careers educated by universities
that conduct outward researchs for general advancement (loosely ok)
the joint extreme research's generally include Government university and
buisness. this is probably right. the government finances the high risk
high yield arbitrage research and the corporate world finances and
conducts the blue chip research. (ish)

but they share and mutually generate and motivate the talent pool,

Balance my thoughts are balance.

as for bad government decision making all I can do is
lead by example.

[Wolfehunter]

The problem with this whole test is that their are people who are making decision that could even if small may cause the end of us.

History has show that when scientist experiment with new power experiments in the end someone gets hurt.

How many people have suffered from Nuclear power..

How many people brainwashed to believe duck and cover will save you?

I'm not saying this isn't a great discovery. I like the idea of them exploring new sciences using new technologies but not on the expense of our lives even if the risk is small.

Unlike a nuclear bomb will kill millions.

This experiment if it fails it will kill us all. Maybe not today maybe not a hundred year maybe not a 1000 years. I'm sorry guys I don't like the idea of my life in a russian roulette game!

There is only one law that governs the universe CHAOS.;)

[Letum]

The problem with this whole test is that their are people who are making decision that could even if small may cause the end of us.

History has show that when scientist experiment with new power experiments in the end someone gets hurt.

How many people have suffered from Nuclear power..

How many people brainwashed to believe duck and cover will save you?

I'm not saying this isn't a great discovery. I like the idea of them exploring new sciences using new technologies but not on the expense of our lives even if the risk is small.

Unlike a nuclear bomb will kill millions.

This experiment if it fails it will kill us all. Maybe not today maybe not a hundred year maybe not a 1000 years. I'm sorry guys I don't like the idea of my life in a russian roulette game!

There is only one law that governs the universe CHAOS.;)



So...you could say you are a little con-CERN-ed.

Baaaahahahaha gettit? gettit?

Concerned....CERN

See?
Baaahahhahahahhaha
CERN!


/death by forced pun

[Mush Martin]

So...you could say you are a little con-CERN-ed.
Baaaahahahaha gettit? gettit?
Concerned....CERN
See?
Baaahahhahahahhaha
CERN!
/death by forced pun


Thank you captain Punnishment

attention all stations subsim apprehend and dont Letum do that again.

[antikristuseke]

Well at least he didnt go for the large hardon collider one.

[Mush Martin]

are you trying to make light with that particle of insight

[Digital_Trucker]

Well at least he didnt go for the large hardon collider one.
Stop it, I have a visualization problem and the term "large hardon collider" is giving me a bad case of the pukes:rotfl:

[Mush Martin]

Im sorry did the wax plugs just fly out of your ears.:rotfl:

"The Capper"

[headcase]

@ UnderseaLcpl

As far as non-public research being more practical, well sometimes it is. But you also get a lot of money spent on a new version of viagra or upset tummy pills, and not much on malaria. The corporate giants won't spend money on something if you can't show them exactly what the new doo-hickey will do and how much money they can make from it. GE could afford to build a collider bigger than CERN. I don't see them doing it.

Much of the big disease research is privately funded. But how much of that comes from things like the Howard Hughes Medical Institute? Maybe I missed it, but don't think there is a particle physics walk-a-thon. Very few people will donate their money for something when all they can see is wires, pipes, and you tell them "I don't know what we'll find and learn, but it's gonna be SWEET"!

No I'm not happy with my government. And so I vote. I also think that with all the things it does wrong it would be worse without it.

NASA going to the moon led to learning more about how this ball of rock we live on got here. Subsequent missions produced better solar panels, things to forecast the weather better, and yes Tang. I still haven't forgiven them for the last bit.

The unfortunate fact is that very few non-governmental and/or university based entity's will spend money on base scientific research. If it won't produce a profitable product they simply aren't intersted. I can understand that Siemens is there to make money. If they learn something by doing it great, but it isn't what they turn the lights on for. Most companies spend the bread on what amounts to engineering not poking it with a stick just to see what happens and then asking "Why?".

I keep thinking that there has to be a better way. Unfortunately I am just not bright enough to figure out what it is.

[Wolfehunter]

The problem with this whole test is that their are people who are making decision that could even if small may cause the end of us.

History has show that when scientist experiment with new power experiments in the end someone gets hurt.

How many people have suffered from Nuclear power..

How many people brainwashed to believe duck and cover will save you?

I'm not saying this isn't a great discovery. I like the idea of them exploring new sciences using new technologies but not on the expense of our lives even if the risk is small.

Unlike a nuclear bomb will kill millions.

This experiment if it fails it will kill us all. Maybe not today maybe not a hundred year maybe not a 1000 years. I'm sorry guys I don't like the idea of my life in a russian roulette game!

There is only one law that governs the universe CHAOS.;)



So...you could say you are a little con-CERN-ed.

Baaaahahahaha gettit? gettit?

Concerned....CERN

See?
Baaahahhahahahhaha
CERN!


/death by forced pun:rotfl: :up: yup abit concerned. ;)

[Penelope_Grey]

This experiment captured my attention this morning with interest. On the one hand the results it could yield, very impressive and part of me wants to know. However... another part of me thinks this should be left well be.

I have since come to realise, when I sat for a moment by myself in a room... I realised very quickly their experiment, while yielding important info... will fail. They will not achieve the results they seek, nor will they destroy the earth or life as we know it.

The reason being? You cannot recreate the power of God in a laboratory or using some fancy machine, even if it did cost 5 billions. Which is what they are trying to do.

There are some frontiers that humanity is forbidden to cross immaterial of how hard they push against the fence... this is one of them. When its all said and done, some of those scientists are going to be very disapointed.

[Wolfehunter]

Sorry Pen in science there is no god just science... You might be right that they won't be getting the results their looking for but thats is the chance of trial and error.;)

[Penelope_Grey]

More fool them then if they discount such a thing.

[Mush Martin]

I disagree. we are capable of more than we can even concieve of
at this stage of societal development. We are only now hooking up
our Body wide Neural net (all humanity and the world wide web)
we are still in the womb gestating and we wont be born unitil we leave
the womb/earth once weve left the womb planets will become disposable.

It will fail in some efforts and succeed in others but all these are the
baby steps on the road to the full context of human life in the universe.
exponential expansion and we are taking the rest of life with us or assimilating what we find as we go.

these experiments success or failure will only lead to a better understanding
of the problems. but what does a better understanding of the problems lead
to?

Up from the ashes grow the roses of success.
adapt and overcome dont adapt and get overrun.

humanity as a single whole entity is a remarkable creature

although I would take major anti matter experiments out to at least the
jupiter lagrange point when the need arises,.........just a thought :rotfl:

[Stealth Hunter]

More fool them then if they discount such a thing.

Well Pen, science doesn't make comment on the supernatural, so investigating the whole God thing would be... rather unprofessional and unscientific.

Now while I personally believe that the universe has always existed in some form or another and God didn't create us, you and others are perfectly entitled to whatever you want to believe. I mean, none of us can really know, but this experiment could very well bring us closer to understanding the greatest question of all time: Did God make the universe or did the universe make itself?

Here's a picture of the collider's holding chamber (big image):

http://media.washingtontimes.com/media/img/photos/2008/09/10/Big_Bang_Machine2.jpg

[antikristuseke]

Science by definition does not deal with any god or anything else supernatural. Science is to explain the natural world arround us.

Anyway one of the most exiting things that could happen would be that they do not find the Higgs boson, because that would mean we have misunderstood something when it comes to particle physics and there would be other exiting experiments.

As for there being boundries of knowlege which are unachievable for humans, I dont think there are any, just as I think there are'nt any dieties. Humans are clever and curious creatures, so far we have achieved a lot and we will continue to do so.

[Penelope_Grey]

Though, if science is right, and there was nothing prior to the "big bang" where did the something come from to cause it?

I am certain of one thing... creation is something that has to be caused it can't happen by accident because of particles bumping into each other.

Not believing in God or a higher power if you will is fine... just cause you personally don't believe it doesn't mean its not there or does not exist. This is going to sound incredibly arrogant but, I'm going to say it anyway...

Science does not have all the answers. And yes... there are limits to what can be achieved.

[Stealth Hunter]

I disagree. we are capable of more than we can even concieve of
at this stage of societal development. We are only now hooking up
our Body wide Neural net (all humanity and the world wide web)
we are still in the womb gestating and we wont be born unitil we leave
the womb/earth once weve left the womb planets will become disposable.

:huh:

OK... moving along...

It will fail in some efforts and succeed in others but all these are the
baby steps on the road to the full context of human life in the universe.
exponential expansion and we are taking the rest of life with us or assimilating what we find as we go

Indeed, but we will unfortunately never be able to fully see the universe as it exists... not anytime soon, anyway.

these experiments success or failure will only lead to a better understanding
of the problems. but what does a better understanding of the problems lead
to?

Knowledge, wisdom, experience... a thousand ways not to make a lightbulb.:p

although I would take major anti matter experiments out to at least the
jupiter lagrange point when the need arises,.........just a thought :rotfl:

You do know that Jupiter's gravitational field keeps Earth's rotation and balance in check, right? It also shields us from asteroids and comets. If it goes, we've got problems.

As for there being boundries of knowlege which are unachievable for humans, I dont think there are any, just as I think there are'nt any dieties. Humans are clever and curious creatures, so far we have achieved a lot and we will continue to do so.

But as infinite as the universe is, there are some things man is not meant to understand... some truths and realities that would bend and misshape our perception of what is real and what is not. Think about it... I mean, many human minds are bound by their inability to correlate all their contents. Too much to discover; too much to try to understand. We live on a placid island of ignorance amidst the black seas of infinity.

[Mush Martin]

discovered in the
post apocalyptic data analysis from the experiment destroying
ubootecomradeland

The quantum singularity itself not only will sustain a microfusion
massive energy surplus but may be contained in a self sustaining
fold into the ninth dimension of hyperspace.

Thus powering my interstellar fleet of trained uboat and fleet boat
skippers who adapt quickly to going dark and folding in and out of
realspace in stealth mode in their Stealth Battlestars.

Support civil liberties for AI Bill and we will all get through this.

[Stealth Hunter]

Though, if science is right, and there was nothing prior to the "big bang" where did the something come from to cause it?

Well, the detailed parts of the theory state that a singularity contained all these elements that make up the universe today (gravity, fusion, fission, forces, etc.), and it exploded to unleash all these elements which made the universe as we know it. That's where the universe came from. Now where the singularity came from, that would be the part that's always existed. In fact, if the Big Rip Theory holds water (and it does indeed seem to), all matter within the universe will once again come together into a singularity and then be unleashed, and a new universe will form. This process will happen forever.

I am certain of one thing... creation is something that has to be caused it can't happen by accident because of particles bumping into each other.

Nature works in mysterious ways.;)

Not believing in God or a higher power if you will is fine... just cause you personally don't believe it doesn't mean its not there or does not exist. This is going to sound incredibly arrogant but, I'm going to say it anyway...


It doesn't sound arrogant in the least. You're patient and calm, at least, compared to some of the others.

With that said, yes, it's possible a God exists. However, no proof has been presented that he does exist (It has made no attempt to make contact with us, and It has not made Itself obvious).

Science does not have all the answers. And yes... there are limits to what can be achieved.

Which is why research and study is important. Science has potential to discover all the answers, but there are boundaries, so while it has potential, it still cannot discover them all.

[Sailor Steve]

Though, if science is right, and there was nothing prior to the "big bang" where did the something come from to cause it?
That's the point: I don't know, they don't know, and you don't know. In other words, we don't know and we can't know.

I am certain of one thing... creation is something that has to be caused it can't happen by accident because of particles bumping into each other.
I'm glad you're certain, because I'm not. You see, we have know way of knowing.

Not believing in God or a higher power if you will is fine... just cause you personally don't believe it doesn't mean its not there or does not exist. This is going to sound incredibly arrogant but, I'm going to say it anyway...
Unfortunately the opposite is also true: just because you believe it doesn't make it so.

Science does not have all the answers. And yes... there are limits to what can be achieved.
That's the point of science: it's about finding out what can be explained, not worrying about what can't. Science doesn't pretend to have all the answers. That's religion's job.

And once again, we don't know if there are limits to what can be achieved unless we try to find them. And even if there are, we don't know what those limits are unless we test them.

[antikristuseke]

Though, if science is right, and there was nothing prior to the "big bang" where did the something come from to cause it?

I am certain of one thing... creation is something that has to be caused it can't happen by accident because of particles bumping into each other.
No physicist has ever claimed that there was nothing prior to the big bang. It was not nothing turning into everything. The best answer I can give to this would be "We dont know, but we are trying to find out." Saying that god did it seems like a lazy way because it replaces one unknown with another.
Not believing in God or a higher power if you will is fine... just cause you personally don't believe it doesn't mean its not there or does not exist. This is going to sound incredibly arrogant but, I'm going to say it anyway...

Science does not have all the answers. And yes... there are limits to what can be achieved.

I agree, science does not have all the answers, to claim otherways would be arrogant and ignorant. If science had all the answers experimentation would be pointless, life would be incredibly boring. But the only limit to what humanity can achieve is the limit of our imagination and time, with ennough time unlocking all the secrets of the universe will eventualy be unlocked.

Anyway thats my take on things, ofcourse I could be wrong.

Edit: This has been one of the most fascinating threads ever on subsim forums and itäs nice that there are people with different opinions in a discussion where discution is respectful.

[Stealth Hunter]

discovered in the
post apocalyptic data analysis from the experiment destroying
ubootecomradeland

The quantum singularity itself not only will sustain a microfusion
massive energy surplus but may be contained in a self sustaining
fold into the ninth dimension of hyperspace.

Thus powering my interstellar fleet of trained uboat and fleet boat
skippers who adapt quickly to going dark and folding in and out of
realspace in stealth mode in their Stealth Battlestars.

Support civil liberties for AI Bill and we will all get through this.

The dreamer's realm.:rotfl:

The String Theory has always fascinated me, ever since I could read. What these dimensions could hold and teach us... and to think we're only one of twelve, yet we're so complex in our own right. It could take a trillion years before we'd be able to learn about half of what our universe has to offer... sad, but that's life.

[Mush Martin]

discovered in the
post apocalyptic data analysis from the experiment destroying
ubootecomradeland

The quantum singularity itself not only will sustain a microfusion
massive energy surplus but may be contained in a self sustaining
fold into the ninth dimension of hyperspace.

Thus powering my interstellar fleet of trained uboat and fleet boat
skippers who adapt quickly to going dark and folding in and out of
realspace in stealth mode in their Stealth Battlestars.

Support civil liberties for AI Bill and we will all get through this.
The dreamer's realm.:rotfl:

The String Theory has always fascinated me, ever since I could read. What these dimensions could hold and teach us... and to think we're only one of twelve, yet we're so complex in our own right. It could take a trillion years before we'd be able to learn about half of what our universe has to offer... sad, but that's life.

Try not to think of it so much as humanity finds a way as life itself
finds a way if not by us then by the next or the one after that but
sooner or later life will expand outwards. relentlessly and remorselessly
as it always has.

humanity is just a manifestation of sentient life in its resident biosphere
if we pooch it that wont stop the process.

[Penelope_Grey]

Unfortunately the opposite is also true: just because you believe it doesn't make it so.
What if I told you that I don't "believe", I know for certain... Now, you may think, anyhting in reply to that. But I digress...

That's the point of science: it's about finding out what can be explained, not worrying about what can't. Science doesn't pretend to have all the answers. That's religion's job.
I find that remark to be a slap in the face of my contributions to the discussion here, at the very least rather condescending. Religion has not got all the answers either, in fact there are lots of it that could be ruled out as bogus... and I'm no Bible basher either.

the truth of the matter is that this machine could be dangerous. "Experts" say no. But experts can get it wrong. Suppose the pursuit of knowledge ends up killing us all? I for one don't want my life, which I am fortunate to have, gambled with by some four-eyed egghead in a white lab coat who wants to find something out he cannot ever know the true answers to.

My point is, there is always cause and effect. That is one constant of the universe and if you don't believe me watch the Matrix Reloaded.



A better question science could turn its attention to is what is the universe expanding into, and what happens when it can expand no more?

Physicists don't know about what caused the universe or what was there before, and they never will. They will have theories, and hell one of them may be right, but no human will have the answer to the question they are asking.

[Biggles]

Hopefully one of the Research assistants isn't called Gordon Freeman
Especially after someone on another forum found this http://lhc-hl-lh.ytmnd.com/

"Wake up Mr Freeman....Wake up and smell the..Ashes"

:o:rotfl::rotfl:

Prepare...for unforeseen consequences....;)

[Stealth Hunter]

the truth of the matter is that this machine could be dangerous. "Experts" say no. But experts can get it wrong. Suppose the pursuit of knowledge ends up killing us all? I for one don't want my life, which I am fortunate to have, gambled with by some four-eyed egghead in a white lab coat who wants to find something out he cannot ever know the true answers to.

What you must understand (and please don't think I'm talking down to you) is that black holes are only as dangerous as the amount of energy that you put directly into them. There's really nothing to be worried about given the design and power configurations of the particle collider.

A better question science could turn its attention to is what is the universe expanding into, and what happens when it can expand no more?

This is where the Big Rip Theory holds water. The universe is just expanding (stretching, basically). When it can't expand anymore, then all the particles and atoms and such in existence will break apart, and they will form return to a singularity (though the atoms will be destroyed). The universe will begin again, and you repeat this same process.

Physicists don't know about what caused the universe or what was there before, and they never will. They will have theories, and hell one of them may be right, but no human will have the answer to the question they are asking.

Nobody knows how it began, and no human will ever have the answer, be they a believer in God or a follower of science.

[Stealth Hunter]

Hopefully one of the Research assistants isn't called Gordon Freeman
Especially after someone on another forum found this http://lhc-hl-lh.ytmnd.com/

"Wake up Mr Freeman....Wake up and smell the..Ashes"

:o:rotfl::rotfl:

Prepare...for unforeseen consequences....;)

http://www.destructoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/gordon%20freeman%20ducttape.jpg

Seriously, though, that guy is pretty creative to make the HEV suit.

[Penelope_Grey]

Nobody knows how it began, and no human will ever have the answer, be they a believer in God or a follower of science.

You are so right on both counts there SH!:up:

However it doesn't stop people (me as well to a degree) fearing what could happen if the machine did go wrong...

Also...


This is where the Big Rip Theory holds water. The universe is just expanding (stretching, basically). When it can't expand anymore, then all the particles and atoms and such in existence will break apart, and they will form return to a singularity (though the atoms will be destroyed). The universe will begin again, and you repeat this same process.

Theoretically of course. :up: But the truth is... that some things go beyond human understanding, and the universe is probably top of that list.

I'm just happy we've seen eye to eye on the whole nobody knows how it began, and no human will ever have the answer thing... because it doesn't get more accurate than that.

[Letum]

Until it is proved we can't understand something, we should not make such assumptions.


Also:


LIVE WEB CAMS FROM THE LHC (http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html)

[Blacklight]

In fact, if the Big Rip Theory holds water (and it does indeed seem to), all matter within the universe will once again come together into a singularity and then be unleashed, and a new universe will form.

The Big Rip theory is actually the opposite of that. You're talking about "The Big Crunch" which would happen if there is a significant ammount of matter in the universe to begin contracting it so everything eventually comes together into a singularity again.
It does not appear to be happening as the universes' expansion appears to be accellerating in speed instead of decreasing over time.
The Big Rip theory is basically this: We know that the universes' expansion speed is increasing at a constant speed every moment. We know how fast the speed is increasing. We also know that space and time are streachy and are being streached out by the expansion. We also know how streachy space and time is. Eventually, the speed of the expansion will get to a speed in which space and time can't streach to keep up with it and it will tear itself to shreds. The process will begin with the very large structures like galaxies and then work it's way down to atomic particles. First.. galaxies will fly apart, then stars will fly apart, then planets will fly apart, then, eventually atoms themselves will fly apart.
Here is a nice and interesting video that explains it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQSJ8fyROOc&feature=related

[Sailor Steve]

Unfortunately the opposite is also true: just because you believe it doesn't make it so.
What if I told you that I don't "believe", I know for certain... Now, you may think, anyhting in reply to that. But I digress...
I'd say at that point that you were being arrogant, if you meant it. I too used to "know for certain", but I've since learned that I don't actually "know" much of anything, and those that do "know for certain" are usually either fooling themselves or hiding something; both of which are scary.

That's the point of science: it's about finding out what can be explained, not worrying about what can't. Science doesn't pretend to have all the answers. That's religion's job.
I find that remark to be a slap in the face of my contributions to the discussion here, at the very least rather condescending. Religion has not got all the answers either, in fact there are lots of it that could be ruled out as bogus... and I'm no Bible basher either.
That was written in direct reaction to this:
I am certain of one thing... creation is something that has to be caused it can't happen by accident because of particles bumping into each other.
Which appeared to me to be condescending.

the truth of the matter is that this machine could be dangerous. "Experts" say no. But experts can get it wrong. Suppose the pursuit of knowledge ends up killing us all? I for one don't want my life, which I am fortunate to have, gambled with by some four-eyed egghead in a white lab coat who wants to find something out he cannot ever know the true answers to.
I agree that they could be wrong, but they also thought there was at least a reasonable chance that when they tested the first atomic bomb that it would set the atmosphere on fire and destroy all life on earth. It could happen, but even disagreeing how will you stop them from trying it.

My point is, there is always cause and effect. That is one constant of the universe and if you don't believe me watch the Matrix Reloaded.
Your point is based on a bad piece of fiction? (Just playing here. I agree there is cause and effect, but again if no one ever tried anything we'd have no phones, no lights, no motorcars.)

A better question science could turn its attention to is what is the universe expanding into, and what happens when it can expand no more?
Do you believe that none of them have thought about that? That none of them are looking into it? It's even harder to discover the future than the past.

Physicists don't know about what caused the universe or what was there before, and they never will. They will have theories, and hell one of them may be right, but no human will have the answer to the question they are asking.
But many mystics and true believers claim to have just that.

I'm not trying to put you down at all. I just disagree with some of your assumptions.

[Task Force]

Hey were all still alive.:p Or they havent done it.:hmm:

[Sailor Steve]

Many, many years ago Robert A. Heinlein wrote a short story about scientists keeping a captive black hole on the moon. It breaks free and slowly starts drifting around, sucking up everything in sight. But it's microscopic in size, so it will take decades for it to do its job.

Hey were all still alive.:p Or they havent done it.:hmm:
These things take time. We may all be dead and just haven't noticed yet.

[Task Force]

How long ago thid they do it?

[StdDev]

And now the TRUTH (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/everyone-dead-by-teatime-200809091242/)

[antikristuseke]

Hey were all still alive.:p Or they havent done it.:hmm:

they only tested one proton beam today, the next test will be for the antiproton beam, it will be quite some time before they start colliding those particle streams.

[headcase]

Hopefully one of the Research assistants isn't called Gordon Freeman
Especially after someone on another forum found this http://lhc-hl-lh.ytmnd.com/

"Wake up Mr Freeman....Wake up and smell the..Ashes"

:o:rotfl::rotfl:
Prepare...for unforeseen consequences....;)
http://www.destructoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/gordon%20freeman%20ducttape.jpg

Seriously, though, that guy is pretty creative to make the HEV suit.

Is that duct tape? Pretty sweet either way.

[Zayphod]

I guess this idea of yet another "thing to destroy the world" will have to be added to the list here:

http://www.geocities.com/alma-geddon/index.html

First "end of...." prediction was around 663 BC. They've been getting them wrong ever since.

[Digital_Trucker]

Ah, but one day, they will get it right and there will be no one around to hear them say "I told you so":rotfl:

[Rhodes]

http://gigasmilies.googlepages.com/10a.gif

I saw the end of the world tonight, or better, the new black and white hole!!!
Portugal winning by 1-0 with Denmark and then 2-3!!!!:huh: :huh: :huh:

The black hole? Our goal in the last minutes, the white hole (opposite of a black hole), their goal!!!

This is the direct result of the LHC....

[darius359au]

Hopefully one of the Research assistants isn't called Gordon Freeman
Especially after someone on another forum found this http://lhc-hl-lh.ytmnd.com/

"Wake up Mr Freeman....Wake up and smell the..Ashes"

:o:rotfl::rotfl:
Prepare...for unforeseen consequences....;)
http://www.destructoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/gordon%20freeman%20ducttape.jpg

Seriously, though, that guy is pretty creative to make the HEV suit.
Is that duct tape? Pretty sweet either way.

Someone had lots of time on their hands, But it's good to be prepared :lol:

[darius359au]

http://gigasmilies.googlepages.com/10a.gif

I saw the end of the world tonight, or better, the new black and white hole!!!
Portugal winning by 1-0 with Denmark and then 2-3!!!!:huh: :huh: :huh:

The black hole? Our goal in the last minutes, the white hole (opposite of a black hole), their goal!!!

This is the direct result of the LHC....

The Black Holes changed Gravity in Europe and caused the ball to curve at the last moment :rotfl::rotfl:

[Stealth Hunter]

http://gigasmilies.googlepages.com/10a.gif

I saw the end of the world tonight, or better, the new black and white hole!!!
Portugal winning by 1-0 with Denmark and then 2-3!!!!:huh: :huh: :huh:

The black hole? Our goal in the last minutes, the white hole (opposite of a black hole), their goal!!!

This is the direct result of the LHC....

The Black Holes changed Gravity in Europe and caused the ball to curve at the last moment :rotfl::rotfl:


BLACK HOLES BURNED MY HOUSE DOWN, TAINTED MY CROPS, POISONED MY WATER SUPPLY, AND THREATENED MY WIFE.:stare:

[darius359au]

How about this? LHC really *is* Black Mesa... :D




Oh screw that:rotfl:
I'm investing in Aperture Science.:D

Someone say Aperture Science? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RthZgszykLs

[Letum]

BLACK HOLES BURNED MY HOUSE DOWN, TAINTED MY CROPS, POISONED MY WATER SUPPLY, AND THREATENED MY WIFE.:stare:

Dey took uurrr yobs! :stare:

[Stealth Hunter]

DERR KET DURR!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2fGl9587X8

[Falkirion]

DEY TOOK URR JEERRBB!

I'm all for investing in Apeture Science. There's research to be done on the people who are still alive after all.

[Platapus]

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think it is good when the stupid people kill themselves.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24328351-401,00.html

TEEN COMMITS SUICIDE AFTER 'END OF WORLD' CERN REPORTS

A TEENAGE girl in central India killed herself on Wednesday after being traumatised by media reports that a "Big Bang" experiment in Europe could bring about the end of the world, her father said.

The 16-year old girl from the state of Madhya Pradesh drank pesticide and was rushed to the hospital but later died, police said.

Her father, identified on local television as Biharilal, said that his daughter, Chayya, killed herself after watching doomsday predictions made on Indian news programmes.

"In the past two days, Chayya had asked me and other relatives about the world coming to an end on Sept. 10," Biharilal was quoted as saying.

"We tried to divert her attention and told her she should not worry about such things, but to no avail."

For the past two days, many Indian news channels held discussions airing doomsday predictions over a huge particle-smashing machine buried under the Swiss-French border.

The machine, called the Large Hadron Collider, was switched on on Wednesday, at the start of what experts say is the largest scientific experiment in human history.

The machine smashes particles together to achieve, on a small-scale, re-enactments of the "Big Bang" that created the universe.

Leading scientists and researchers at the European Organisation for Nuclear Research, said the experiment was safe. They dismissed as "pure fiction" doomsday predictions that the experiment could create anti-matter, or black holes.

But in deeply religious and superstitious India, fears about the experiment and the minor risks associated with it spread rapidly through the media.

In east India, thousands of people rushed to temples to pray and fast while others savoured their favourite foods in anticipation of the world's end.

"There were a thousand more devotees yesterday as well as today compared to (any) other normal day," Benudhara Sahu, a temple official in Orissa state, said.

Many women and children rushed to temples and observed fasts as they prayed for deliverance, officials and witnesses said.

Assurances by scientists and the media that nothing would happen counted for nothing for housewife Rukmini Moharana.

"I visited temple, prayed to god," Moharana said. "I am observing the fast for safety because god can only save us."

[Sailor Steve]

Many women and children rushed to temples and observed fasts as they prayed for deliverance, officials and witnesses said.

"I visited temple, prayed to god," Moharana said. "I am observing the fast for safety because god can only save us."
See? It worked.

Time to convert.

[Stealth Hunter]

ALL GODS ARE CHOIRBOYS WHEN IT COMES TO THOR!

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/2/23/Thor.jpg

[Wolfehunter]

Though, if science is right, and there was nothing prior to the "big bang" where did the something come from to cause it?

I am certain of one thing... creation is something that has to be caused it can't happen by accident because of particles bumping into each other.

Not believing in God or a higher power if you will is fine... just cause you personally don't believe it doesn't mean its not there or does not exist. This is going to sound incredibly arrogant but, I'm going to say it anyway...

Science does not have all the answers. And yes... there are limits to what can be achieved.Your right science doesn't have all the answer untill its researched, explored and perfected. Then there are results. Untill then their called theories. But time will help reveal those secrets. Trial and error is your enemy and friend. ;)

I'm not trying to put anyones faith down but there is no proof of a diety being in my eyes.

Yet I respect those who want to believe in a godly icon. That is your choice and right.

Prior to the big bang? Who knows. Could have been another universe, Maybe nothing, Maybe our universe is infinite and where limited to our technology for reaching the stars?

Time will reveal all the secrets and hopefully we don't wipe ourselves out..:damn:

[antikristuseke]

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think it is good when the stupid people kill themselves.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24328351-401,00.html

TEEN COMMITS SUICIDE AFTER 'END OF WORLD' CERN REPORTS

A TEENAGE girl in central India killed herself on Wednesday after being traumatised by media reports that a "Big Bang" experiment in Europe could bring about the end of the world, her father said.

The 16-year old girl from the state of Madhya Pradesh drank pesticide and was rushed to the hospital but later died, police said.

Her father, identified on local television as Biharilal, said that his daughter, Chayya, killed herself after watching doomsday predictions made on Indian news programmes.

"In the past two days, Chayya had asked me and other relatives about the world coming to an end on Sept. 10," Biharilal was quoted as saying.

"We tried to divert her attention and told her she should not worry about such things, but to no avail."

For the past two days, many Indian news channels held discussions airing doomsday predictions over a huge particle-smashing machine buried under the Swiss-French border.

The machine, called the Large Hadron Collider, was switched on on Wednesday, at the start of what experts say is the largest scientific experiment in human history.

The machine smashes particles together to achieve, on a small-scale, re-enactments of the "Big Bang" that created the universe.

Leading scientists and researchers at the European Organisation for Nuclear Research, said the experiment was safe. They dismissed as "pure fiction" doomsday predictions that the experiment could create anti-matter, or black holes.

But in deeply religious and superstitious India, fears about the experiment and the minor risks associated with it spread rapidly through the media.

In east India, thousands of people rushed to temples to pray and fast while others savoured their favourite foods in anticipation of the world's end.

"There were a thousand more devotees yesterday as well as today compared to (any) other normal day," Benudhara Sahu, a temple official in Orissa state, said.

Many women and children rushed to temples and observed fasts as they prayed for deliverance, officials and witnesses said.

Assurances by scientists and the media that nothing would happen counted for nothing for housewife Rukmini Moharana.

"I visited temple, prayed to god," Moharana said. "I am observing the fast for safety because god can only save us."

When I read the first sentence of that article i spewed coffee all over my monitor and laughed out loud. I'm a horrible person.
Feel sorry for her parents loss thought.

[Penelope_Grey]

I'd say at that point that you were being arrogant, if you meant it. I too used to "know for certain", but I've since learned that I don't actually "know" much of anything, and those that do "know for certain" are usually either fooling themselves or hiding something; both of which are scary.

Well… I don’t know exactly how the universe got made, and even if I did know exactly… I wouldn’t say. Ever. Personally, I wouldn’t want to know.

Because either a) I’d be laughed at and demonised or b) some eager egghead would believe me and have to try it out for themselves. As I say there are some things we are just better off not knowing about.

There are one or two things though that I do know for sure. But they shall have to wait for another discussion. ;)

That was written in direct reaction to this:
I am certain of one thing... creation is something that has to be caused it can't happen by accident because of particles bumping into each other.
Which appeared to me to be condescending.

The last thing I want to do is cause bad feeling and upset with one of the most respected forum members here, but I have to ask you…

What is condescending about me saying that I am certain creation was caused and didn’t just happen because of particles bumping around, that an external factor, an ‘unknown’ if you will was involved in said creation…?

Your point is based on a bad piece of fiction? (Just playing here. I agree there is cause and effect, but again if no one ever tried anything we'd have no phones, no lights, no motorcars.)

Bad? I soooo beg to differ. The Matrix is jam packed with references and symbolism which is sadly often too well hidden behind Kung Fu and special effects… but the point is, cause and effect.

Also, you comparing that machine to those things is not fair IMO. A phone does not have the possibility of potentially destroying the Earth. I don’t think this thing poses any danger to us, because of reasons stated before as in… what they are trying to do, cannot be done by mere mortals and a machine.

But many mystics and true believers claim to have just that.

I'm not trying to put you down at all. I just disagree with some of your assumptions.

Well see… that’s the thing about matters such as this. When nobody is informed of the genuine facts, disagreement will happen because of people having different ideas about it. With all due respect and I mean this with as much respect as possible…I don’t mind that you disagree with me, it really doesn’t matter one bit to me. Because in a discussion like this, really, how can anybody be sure they are the one that is truly right? Who is qualified to say whose ideas were right and whose were wrong?

Scientists like them doing this experiment are dangerous people… My biggest fear, is what will they try next after this? Maybe trying to create a mini-universe in a glass tube? Perhaps they will try to make a controlled black hole? Create a worm hole? Things like this that occur out in space naturally should not be created in a laboratory.

Wonderful if they get it right, but they get it wrong… well… nuff said! Literally!!

[Penelope_Grey]

Your right science doesn't have all the answer untill its researched, explored and perfected. Then there are results. Untill then their called theories. But time will help reveal those secrets. Trial and error is your enemy and friend. ;)

I'm not trying to put anyones faith down but there is no proof of a diety being in my eyes.

Yet I respect those who want to believe in a godly icon. That is your choice and right.

Prior to the big bang? Who knows. Could have been another universe, Maybe nothing, Maybe our universe is infinite and where limited to our technology for reaching the stars?


Some things stay secret. Immaterial of the amount of research that goes into it.

There is no proof in my eyes of a deity being either, but I don't rule out the distinct possibility of its existence either. Just because you have no proof of something does not rule out its existence or mean its not real... I think of it like this, I don't go round proving myself to the bugs in the back yard, they are lesser lifeforms than me. So, why would a higher being feel compelled to prove themselves to us?

Time will reveal all the secrets and hopefully we don't wipe ourselves out..:damn:

We won't wipe ourselves out, the eggheads in lab coats will probably do that for us when they decide to recreate things that occur naturally in a lab. I call it tampering. Others call it research. Meh... what can ya do?

[Penelope_Grey]

What is condescending about me saying that I am certain creation was caused and didn’t just happen because of particles bumping around, that an external factor, an ‘unknown’ if you will was involved in said creation…?

But then how got that "unknown" created, where does it come from ? :)
Prescisely! Which is my point... they won't unravel the mysteries of the universe in a lab with a pricey machine! There are just far too many questions. Which lead to even more questions.

Anyways Im gonna shut up now. :D

[Mush Martin]

Action is how we fight despair

Education is how we fight fear

Experimentation is how we fight stagnation.

we must and will grow.

[Skybird]

What we discover is not nature, but nature that is exposed to our way of asking questions aboiut it. (Heisenberg).

We don't perceive the universe by our senses, for it is not anywhere else than inside our heads that the electric impulses of our senses get constructed and put together into something we call our perception of the universe. So, what we witness is just our mind's dance with it's own thoughts, images and ideas. the space out there, and the space inside our mind - isn't it just the same, in the end?

[Letum]

What we discover is not nature, but nature that is exposed to our way of asking questions aboiut it. (Heisenberg).

We don't perceive the universe by our senses, for it is not anywhere else than inside our heads that the electric impulses of our senses get constructed and put together into something we call our perception of the universe. So, what we witness is just our mind's dance with it's own thoughts, images and ideas. the space out there, and the space inside our mind - isn't it just the same, in the end?

Tell me Sky, is the above quote a fact about the/your universe?

[Sailor Steve]

The last thing I want to do is cause bad feeling and upset with one of the most respected forum members here,
Please, forget that 'respected' crap. I'm just a bum with too much time on his hands who posts way too much. It just gets to a point where if I disagree with somebody, they think they have to justify themselves or something. I get tired of people saying "doesn't my opinion coun't too?" Of course it does, and every bit as much as anyone else's. But sometimes I feel like mine doesn't count, or someone else thinks I'm putting them down just because I express my own. If I thought you were being condescending, well, that's just my opinion.

What is condescending about me saying that I am certain creation was caused and didn’t just happen because of particles bumping around, that an external factor, an ‘unknown’ if you will was involved in said creation…?
Nothing at all. It was just the way you said it seemed kind of superior to me.


Bad? I soooo beg to differ. The Matrix is jam packed with references and symbolism which is sadly often too well hidden behind Kung Fu and special effects… but the point is, cause and effect.
Beg all you want; it won't change my mind (sorry, couldn't resist. Bad joke, I know). I saw the first one, suffered through the second and didn't bother with the third. They just got on my nerves. Of course, if we're actually living in the Matrix now...

Also, you comparing that machine to those things is not fair IMO. A phone does not have the possibility of potentially destroying the Earth. I don’t think this thing poses any danger to us, because of reasons stated before as in… what they are trying to do, cannot be done by mere mortals and a machine.
But we can't know that, and scientists become scientist because they feel driven to try. As for the "no phones" thing, that was a quote from the closing theme from Gilligan's Island, obviously a bad attempt on my part.

As for your worries on them suddenly destroying everything, you are probably right to worry. But I don't know what any of us can do to stop experimentation. By the time we found out about somebody going to far, it will probably be far too late. I grew up in the worst part of the cold war, with everybody telling us what to do in case the missiles started flying and large numbers of folks building and stocking bomb shelters. After awhile you just get jaded: if it happens it happens, and if it does there's probably not a single thing you can do about it.

I guess I'm just old and tired.:sunny:

[Rhodes]

Well, again with the off topic matter, but since it's about black holes or quantum singularities, I want to ask something. It is more of the real of science fiction: in star trek, the romulan ships have quantum singularities (or black holes) as a power source and there is a british movie that in a nuclear power station they manage to create a black hole to provide energy (feed by the nuclear wastes of other centrals but the thing goes bad and they have to give more power to stabilize it and etc). How, if possibly, one can draw power from a black hole (even if this is from the realm of science fiction)?

[Mush Martin]

Not my field I just need the engines for my sub:arrgh!:

[Wolfehunter]

Some things stay secret. Immaterial of the amount of research that goes into it.

There is no proof in my eyes of a deity being either, but I don't rule out the distinct possibility of its existence either. Just because you have no proof of something does not rule out its existence or mean its not real... I think of it like this, I don't go round proving myself to the bugs in the back yard, they are lesser lifeforms than me. So, why would a higher being feel compelled to prove themselves to us?

We won't wipe ourselves out, the eggheads in lab coats will probably do that for us when they decide to recreate things that occur naturally in a lab. I call it tampering. Others call it research. Meh... what can ya do?

Today and maybe for the next oh 1000 years perhaps we won't find all the secrets.

Maybe it will take tens of thousand years to figure all it out.. Maybe it will take longer?

One day we will know all the secrets. I can promise you it won't happen in my life time lol..:up:

Sorry Pen I don't believe in gods ghost vampires boogieman etc. I believe in people and what they can and can not contribute to this world in our short meager life. ;)

This science project can help science move forward in a positive way. Problem is this one with extreme low risk of an actual event causing a black hole whatever can have huge consequence IF they mess up.

Funny thing is how they can gamble with everones lives like we don't matter for the sake of science? I see a problem with that. And its not the first time they have done this...