Seal clubbing

[AJ!]

So the other day i was looking for a animal picture for my avatar. I was looking through all different sea life for half decent pics and eventually got to seals.

Sadly some of the links led me to sites about seal clubbing. I saw some terrible pictures and couldn't help but wonder how the Canadians can justify something like this..... :nope:

http://www.treebugger.com/adventure-holiday-seal-clubbing/

Now this site got me fired up. This is from the point of view of a pro clubber. Im not a religious person but i hope the person that wrote that goes on a one way ticket to hell :stare:

[joea]

Do you eat meat?

[August]

Kinda gory but how is it any less acceptable than slaughtering cattle?

Edit: Joe ya beat me!

[joea]

Yea August, I am not one for wearing fur really unless you live in a really cold climate, and like the Inuit use every part of the animal.

I just hate that people reserve their pity for the "cute" animals.

Disclaimer: I could kill for food but not club a seal. I have been in a slaughterhouse btw.

[Mush Martin]

I have known a few people who were kin of the hunt and more or less
directly lived among those communities and those economies. I feel
that the seal hunt as such belongs to a different age and has no place
in the twenty first century. I feel that the economic opportunity in newfoundland at the moment is extremely limited and I understand the
position of the hunters.

I Feel a true opportunity exists within this terrible issue a chance for
Newfoundland Canada and the World Community/UN/WTO somebody
anyway to make a real lemonade out of these lemons.

The oceans are the future of economy and the construction of various
types of industrial platforms could form a huge new basis for the newfoundland economy eventually driving them up to an economic potential
equal with korea and not relying on the cod to do it.

understand that theres a difference really although the cod fisherman may
rightly not necessarily agree with me specifically. the cod fishery feeds
newfoundland at large. the seal hunt feeds families and small communities.
its hard to take away the livelyhood of a man without giving him another
means. I think it generally foolish anyway.

The Newf's have already built at one point the worlds largest rig
and so the have some basis for the opportunity in previous experience
but they arent selling it or emphasizing it and as a whole community/province/island/people they should be driving for these contracts and become famous for it and quality.

they are a quaint and colloquial people but they are capable of so much.
they need only turn there focus a bit and they can solve an aweful lot
of their current major issues.


Newfoundland is a beautiful rugged place with the oldest history
in north america, its people truly are unique and no offense to Quebecers
but as they seem so much like me only french.

'tis d Newf's I t'inks of when I hear's the phrase "Distinct society"
not my nieghbors in Quebec.

Theres an opportunity in Canada to change the meaning of distinct society
and turn it from an alienating thing into a cultural recognitions and respects
thing at least in the sort of pinko socialist ideal of the stereo typical canadian that I feel I am. (Idealists who can explain it to them?)

Canada should also be selling and investing in the conversion of the newf
economy to the emphasis on industrial fabrication. as a canadian province
whats good for the newf economy is good for the canadian economy.

its something we and a lot of other places need to learn about economies.
the investment in industrial manufacturing base and the ability to utilize
and refine your own resources and produce product from them thats
desireable and competitive is the basis of a solid economy.

for a longer than we have been a nation we have been shipping
our resources overseas at ten bucks a ton and buying it back
as clocks and tv sets at fifty bucks a pound.

poor strategy, ok to start an economy on in the new world but no
way to sustain one.

Opportunity exists within the tragedy but who is looking ?


sorry I was bored and felt like rambling.
M

[Letum]

I am quite happy to have seals or any other animal clubbed if there is a good
reason and it does not long term harm.
Nature deal out much worse fates.

*edit* Just to qualify that; "good reason" includes fur hats, entertainment/sport or anything of benefit.

[Mush Martin]

My wife has strong objections, sometimes I have to consider those
priorities I am not the only one. I see both sides of it, I feel the merits
of the thing need to be diminished before it can be eliminated.

so a better job is the answer to my mind sooner or later no one
will need to go but the fur sellers who might make the trip or might not:rotfl:
[edit] for the unenlightend the seal hunt is not made in a subtle environment.

[AJ!]

Unbelievable......

I didn't think there was anyone who could justify this. Joea the vast majority arnt killed for meat. Most of them are skinned and then left there. Many of them are skinned alive then left to die in the cold. What is worse about the situation is this is seen as a sport by many people. That site was showing their view that going out and killing the seals is a good laugh and a fun day out.

The main reason they allow this is apparently to keep the cod levels in the area up. Anyone who can put a club to these creatures obviously isnt all there in the head....

[joea]

You obviously didn't read my post AJ? I said

I am not one for wearing fur really unless you live in a really cold climate, and like the Inuit use every part of the animal.

I just hate that people reserve their pity for the "cute" animals.

Disclaimer: I could kill for food but not club a seal. I have been in a slaughterhouse btw.

Why is this cruelty worse than say how geese are force fed to make fois gras?

[Stealth Hunter]

I don't think the hobby is cruel and inhumane so much as the killing part goes. I mean why club a seal when you could shoot it and be done?:shifty:

[SS107.9MHz]

You obviously didn't read my post AJ? I said

I am not one for wearing fur really unless you live in a really cold climate, and like the Inuit use every part of the animal.

I just hate that people reserve their pity for the "cute" animals.

Disclaimer: I could kill for food but not club a seal. I have been in a slaughterhouse btw.
Why is this cruelty worse than say how geese are force fed to make fois gras?

It isn't. Or maybe it is, but I'm shure not one of them should be happening.
ANd about cattle, well we breed cattle, we maintain their species to benefit us and inadvertedly theirs. We breed them, kill them and eat them (and use their hides for nifty shoes and jacketshttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon10.gif, and their hooves for glue, ehehe)... I don't see anyone breeding or eating seal however (unless the natives from those areas).

It's the same thing than killing puppies and kittens by mauling or drowning them...
I wonder if the seals started mauling those guys kids to make coats for their mmisses those guys would appreciate it

[AJ!]

Sorry joea i didn't read that post. I just sorta jumped to conclusions after your first post ;)

I totally agree with you about they slaughter of other animals. Dont get me wrong i haven't brought up seals just because they are cute. Japan has their horrific whaling, they still stone live rabbits in spain and other places and other cultures have different and terrible ways of killing animals.

I also agree the slaughter of cattle is horrible and i guess being to a slaughterhouse you will have seen first hand what its like :nope: Sadly in this day and age we have such a high demand for meat in our growing population that this sort of system is the most practical way.

If the killing of these seals was to sustain our population with meat then assuming they were more humain about it i would accept it. The truth however is its simply not......

[AJ!]

I don't think the hobby is cruel and inhumane so much as the killing part goes. I mean why club a seal when you could shoot it and be done?:shifty:

One bullet to the head would be so much more humane yet still unacceptable

[Mush Martin]

when it comes down to it I wont eat veal or foix gras as a sort of
contientious objector

cruelty is cruelty and necessity is necessity
as far as the seal hunt goes if it must be done
it should as with all taking of life be swift and mercifully so.

the hunt itself may be justified still atm.
But the means Im not to so sure of

[Stealth Hunter]

I don't think the hobby is cruel and inhumane so much as the killing part goes. I mean why club a seal when you could shoot it and be done?:shifty:

One bullet to the head would be so much more humane yet still unacceptable

How would it be unacceptable? Seals are not endangered from the clubbing hunts as done by the Canadians. However, the whales the Japs are hunting are. That's the difference between the two.

So, let them kill seals. Seal meat can actually be a very tasty meal, and the fur is extremely soft, too. Just make sure they do it quickly and make sure they use every part of the animal up, like the Inuits.

I just hate that people reserve their pity for the "cute" animals.

YES, YES, and YES. Someone finally said it!:up:

[Letum]

The live of an animal is worth nothing compared to the well being of humans in my opinion.

I would sooner see one million animals die is the worst ways possible than see
a human suffer an inconvenience. (So long as this had no long term effect on any
ecosystems etc.)

It is humans that matter beyond all other concerns.

As the cat cares nothing for the live toy it amuses it's self with, so should we care
care nothing for the subjects of our food, sport, clothing etc.

Only after human concerns does the wellbeing of animals concern me.

In short:
I advocate compassion for both humans and animals, but that for humans
outweighsthat for animals infinitively.

[AJ!]

The live of an animal is worth nothing compared to the well being of humans in my opinion.

I would sooner see one million animals die is the worst ways possible than see
a human suffer an inconvenience. (So long as this had no long term effect on any
ecosystems etc.)

It is humans that matter beyond all other concerns.

As the cat cares nothing for the live toy it amuses it's self with, so should we care
care nothing for the subjects of our food, sport, clothing etc.

Only after human concerns does the wellbeing of animals concern me.

In short:
I advocate compassion for both humans and animals, but that for humans
outweighsthat for animals infinitively.

I can tell you never had a pet ;)

Too be honest Letum i find your words very distressing. Im the sort of person who feels bad for the rest of the day if i step on a snail or something ( a bit of a wuss i guess :yep:) Everything has a right to live.

Everyone has their oppinion and i accept your views............ i just hope there are very few people out there with the same opinion as you :-?

[Letum]

I can tell you never had a pet ;)

Animals all my life here.
I grew up on a farm and I currently have two dogs that I love very much.

It's not that I don't have compassion for animals, it's just that they don't copmpare to humans at all.

[AJ!]

I can tell you never had a pet ;)
Animals all my life here.
I grew up on a farm and I currently have two dogs that I love very much.

It's not that I don't have compassion for animals, it's just that they don't copmpare to humans at all.

I must admit that is a bit of a surprise to me. From what you said before it sounded like you never had an animal you cared about. I guess that makes your view much less bias although i still disagree with you :up:

[SS107.9MHz]

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u177/sandraswede/seal_protest_2.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u177/sandraswede/item-1.jpghttp://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u177/sandraswede/seal1-1.jpg
SPLAT! "Now ain't that cute? BUT IT'S WRONG!"

[SS107.9MHz]

I can tell you never had a pet ;)
Animals all my life here.
I grew up on a farm and I currently have two dogs that I love very much.

It's not that I don't have compassion for animals, it's just that they don't copmpare to humans at all.
I must admit that is a bit of a surprise to me. From what you said before it sounded like you never had an animal you cared about. I guess that makes your view much less bias although i still disagree with you :up:

I tend to think that some humans can't compare to people at all:cool:

I tell you one thing if a guy killed my dog:hulk: I'd take ugly vengence upon is head:/\\chop

[Skybird]

I am no fanatic, but I eat meat very rarely only, and in low quantities, If so, I buy it at a local farm where they are not engaged in intense liferstock farming, and no industrial slaughtering. I see it like this: if you think that animals are lower beings and have no souls, visit an industrial mass slaughterhouse and see what is happening there, see the indifference of humans, the fear and panic of animals, their abuse by totall unalive machinery - and then ask yourself who is the one here showing no soul. Seeing thousands of animals being turned into naked cadavers and shreddered pieces on the blue collar, is an illustration of a vision of hell.

If you want to eat meat, be sure you can bear to kill a living animal with your own hands, and if you feel you could not do it, don't eat meat.

Don't buy meat in supermarkets. Boycott it.

Now take ninto accpunt what probably most of you have seen in pictures and reports about animal transports. Cows with broken legs being tortored with electrshocks at their genitals to make them crawl off the waggon. Sheep carried at one leg by a crane, with the anjle dislocated. Panic and suffering of the animals for one, two, three days. Death by suffocation and no water, heat.

intensive lifestock farming imo is one of the most digusting and shameful disgraces "civilised man" ever became guilty of. It's an obscenity that mocks life and nature, and a declaration of failure of man's ethics.

[Mush Martin]

I am no fanatic, but I eat meat very rarely only, and in low quantities, If so, I buy it at a local farm where they are not engaged in intense liferstock farming, and no industrial slaughtering. I see it like this: if you think that animals are lower beings and have no souls, visit an industrial mass slaughterhouse and see what is happening there, see the indifference of humans, the fear and panic of animals, their abuse by totall unalive machinery - and then ask yourself who is the one here showing no soul. Seeing thousands of animals being turned into naked cadavers and shreddered pieces on the blue collar, is an illustration of a vision of hell.

If you want to eat meat, be sure you can bear to kill a living animal with your own hands, and if you feel you could not do it, don't eat meat.

Don't buy meat in supermarkets. Boycott it.

Now take ninto accpunt what probably most of you have seen in pictures and reports about animal transports. Cows with broken legs being tortored with electrshocks at their genitals to make them crawl off the waggon. Sheep carried at one leg by a crane, with the anjle dislocated. Panic and suffering of the animals for one, two, three days. Death by suffocation and no water, heat.

intensive lifestock farming imo is one of the most digusting and shameful disgraces "civilised man" ever became guilty of. It's an obscenity that mocks life and nature, and a declaration of failure of man's ethics.

Well hit :up: here here and seconded.

[edit] although I am a fanatic though about somehthing im sure.

[mrbeast]

Kinda gory but how is it any less acceptable than slaughtering cattle?

Edit: Joe ya beat me!

But would you slaughter a cow by bludgeoning it to death with a club?

I think killing seals in this fashion is disgusting and barabaric.

If wild animals have to managed by culling or livestock killed for meat; and if this causes a degree of suffering, then so be it; but to carry out a task like this in a needlessly cruel fashion is morally indefensible IMO.

[Letum]

What do you think of removing the teeth out of a seal, sorrounding it with food and then waiting for it to starve to death?

Thats nature's way.

[Mush Martin]

What do you think of removing the teeth out of a seal, sorrounding it with food and then waiting for it to starve to death?

Thats nature's way.

Good bat:up:

[mrbeast]

What do you think of removing the teeth out of a seal, sorrounding it with food and then waiting for it to starve to death?

Thats nature's way.

Nature is indifferent to suffering or cruelty; it is not a moral agent.

Humans on the otherhand are.

[Mush Martin]

Human moralities are societal constructs agreed to by a group

not permanent and not laws of nature.

one of the difficulties of the modern world is developing a worthy
moral/ethical code for new capabilities such as genetics where stuff
we are able to do now had no frame of reference in such sources of
modern moralities as say a middle eastern village of two thousand
years ago.

they couldnt concieve it to determine it.
even ethics and moralities evolve.

what can get someone sent to prison for life in America today
was normal and acceptable in ancient greece birthplace of democracy.

[Letum]

What do you think of removing the teeth out of a seal, sorrounding it with food and then waiting for it to starve to death?

Thats nature's way.
Good bat:up:

It's the way we all go. Death and suffering are inevitable and unavoidable.
For humans it is different because we are conscious of the world in a way
very distinct from even the most intelligent animal. For us, human death
and suffering can become tragedy, rather than just nature.

A stone breaking in two as it falls from a rock face, an amoeba becoming
a indefinable part of the chemical soup it lives in, a salmon floating to the
surface or a crippled antelope dieing in the sun is not tragic.
Neither is the bull in the bull ring, the seal on bloody ice or the sheep on
the floor of a lorry.

There is pain and suffering, but that is universal and unavoidable; that is
nature.
it is right that this appeals to our compassion, but empathy: to place our
understanding upon the animal and make it's situation a tragedy, is
misplaced.

Only the understanding of a man bleeding to death on a road because he
thought it was safe to overtake or an old man fighting for his last breath
because he does not want to die is tragedy.
That does not apply to a carp of a badger or a horse.


For me to have compassion, there must be the ability to feel pain.
For empathy there must be understanding.

[Koondawg]

Seal clubbing is a must!!!!! Now dont get me wrong, say get one of the seals to be a DD (designated driver). Have the others buy the drinks and your home free. Perhaps you may even run into a couple of fox's....who knows what could happen...all night partying, wild animal like sex...wake up the next morning with the roosters in a cat house and wonder just what happened the night before.
Course if your wife or girlfriend were to find out you may end up in the dawg house...then you may end up on the lamb trying to stay alive.
Oh im sorry I was just rambling....:o


KD

[Mush Martin]

an amoeba becoming
a indefinable part of the chemical soup it lives in,.

One of the terrible difficulties humanity faces is not realizing
that that is what we are. In an active Darwinian competition
against other life, not earth life, we are part of earth life in her
natural course and we cannot escape being part of the natural
evolutions on earth, wether we think we should or shouldnt be
stripping the oceans and poisoning the sky we are, the plain observed
fact is just that. we are, its part of our natural function to do so.

in the universe from time to time and place to place
life appears. when conditions are right life grows expands
and adapts and moves outward. Lifes major prime directive
is go forth and multiply. where life evolves sentient life evolve
into the natural bio matrix for the purpose of advancing the bio
matrix beyond its ability to drift in the wind. when we soil the bed
of earth we create conditions that will motivate a final minute percentage
of earth sentient life (if not us the next) to conquer the challenges of
space distances. Necessity is the mother of invention and when the time
comes it will happen. when we or they leave earth to save ourselves from
the earth being croweded and full of sin, we will take the rainforest to
breath eat and drink. when we get there we will tell ourselves look at
how cleverly we used nature. and nature will smile and say ah fooled the
self possesed legs again into thinking they were directing where we were
going.


we are the legs of earth life and the keepers of its garden but we dont
quite see what that means. We will drive ourselves outwards by the mechanisms population pressure and resource crisis, the same as happens
in nature with a slime mold spore and the subsequent life cycle of its colony.

we think we are outside nature but we are not, it is simply impossible to
be so show me a place outside of nature for us to stand on. we are part
of the matrix earth life, she has her own priorities, quite natural and quite
effective tried previously I am sure, by many other attempts to evolve
life elsewhere in the universe for the purpose of filling the universe and
unfreezing its energy to create a surplus.

adapt and overcome assimilate what can be conqured destroy or avoid
what cannot.


meh or maybe I should take up creation science instead
I miss all the singing and dancing.:|\\

[August]

This thread makes me want to club something... :yep:

[Mush Martin]

This thread makes me want to club something... :yep:

:rotfl:

[Koondawg]

Let's say you are out seal clubbing...when you spot a group of hot chicks....everyone knows that there will be whale in the group...probably the one who's responsible for getting all of the fox's home...
One of your seals will have to take one for the team...shoot for the whale and get her out of the way....thus leaving all the hot chicks available for easy pickings...
Leaving me to the conclusion Seal clubbing is a must....:lol:

KD

[AJ!]

Let's say you are out seal clubbing...when you spot a group of hot chicks....everyone knows that there will be whale in the group...probably the one who's responsible for getting all of the fox's home...
One of your seals will have to take one for the team...shoot for the whale and get her out of the way....thus leaving all the hot chicks available for easy pickings...
Leaving me to the conclusion Seal clubbing is a must....:lol:

KD

I totally.... um.... wha? :hmm:

[Konovalov]

Club seals and eat lots of meat. :smug:

[Oberon]

Seal clubbing :down:

Human clubbing :up:

Quite a few people I'd like to visit with a baseball bat :up:
I say leave the animals alone and turn to the prisons, it'd stop prison overcrowding :yep:

[Mush Martin]

Seal clubbing :down:

Human clubbing :up:

Quite a few people I'd like to visit with a baseball bat :up:
I say leave the animals alone and turn to the prisons, it'd stop prison overcrowding :yep:

No Good the Pelts are all Tatoo'd

[antikristuseke]

First of all I want to mkae it clear that I have no knowlege of how the seal population in newfoundland is doing, but concidering that they are quite close to human habitation the likelyhood that their natural predators have decreased in number is quite large, which could cause an explosion in the seal population, in which case culling their numbers is just fine in my book. Allso I have no problem of them being clubbed to death than being killed by other means.
Allso as with most everything those idealistic hypocrites from PETA are involved, it is overblown and focuses only on creatures generaly concidered cute.

Like it or not, humans beings are omnovores, meat is a part of our diet and to sustain this population industrialized farming is needed. It might not be pretty, but thats life for you. I have been to slaughterhouses, I have killed animals myself on both of our families famrs, I have gutted and skinned the animals as well as prepared the usable parts of the entrails for use in cooking.

[Letum]

I wonder what the world would be like if all the money and time devoted to animal charity programs* was devoted instead to humans in need. What a better place the world might be.

*Other than those sustaining or studying endangered/delicate animals/ecosystems.

[heartc]

Funny how a lot of people get all worked up about animals being slaughtered, but have no comment when humans are being gas-bombed. Or they even start protesting hystericly when the one who gas-bombed those people gets removed.

Well. That's mankind 101.

Save the seals!!!!!11!!111!!!!

[antikristuseke]

Shave the whales!

[UnderseaLcpl]

I wonder what the world would be like if all the money and time devoted to animal charity programs* was devoted instead to humans in need. What a better place the world might be.

*Other than those sustaining or studying endangered/delicate animals/ecosystems.

I doubt that would work.

According to the taxpayer's guide to spending available here http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/253.html in pdf format,
the Federal government set aside 756 million dolars for General and special Funds for foreign aid. Also, the "International Assistance Program" had a budget of around 15 billion dollars, primarily for humanitarian and economic relief.
That is to say nothing of the department of Education's 50-something billion dollar budget, and the Department of Health and Human Services'
half a trillion dollar budget (excepting the FDA's 1 billion dollar budget)


No private charity (or charites) can match that level of investment. Of course, since these are government expenditures, I would venture that they are spent poorly and as such are largely ineffective. And these are just a few of the examples in which the state doles out funds for human welfare.

Were that money to be placed in the hands of the people, who may choose to invest some of it in charity, then maybe they could significantly improve the lives of others.


Another problem is that most of the world's poorest countries have socialist or totalitarian governments and/or command economies. A brief visit to http://www.heritage.org/Index/ provides support for this argument.
I can post links to more sites with similar information, if needed.

Since these countries are in the grip of statist regimes, there is nothing that can really be done to help them. It's like the old adage, "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime."
You can never do anything but give these people fish, because their economic system will continually drive them into poverty. As their population grows, the amount of aid needed expands in direct proportion. (sometimes a J-curve:o )

Even if all the first and second-world nations united in providing relief for the 3rd world, which they already do to a significant degree, they would only bankrupt themselves within a few years or decades, thus bringing them closer to the status of those they sought to help. Remember that most (if not all) of the world's nations are already in debt.

The obvious solution seems to be replacing the regimes of such countries with military force or subterfuge. But this does not work, either. It incurs massive state debts, and there is no guarantee that the new regime will be permanent.

The only solution, and indeed the only thing that will ever happen, is to let the process of natural selection work. Weak and foolish nations wither and die. Intelligent ones prosper and become strong, for a time. Then they over-reach and overspend, and in time, they wither and die as well. And they are replaced by new powers, all of whom are doomed to repeat the same process.

The watchword must always be "Freedom". When people are free they trade, they produce, and they prosper. Sometimes they quarrel or cheat one another. When they do so, it is the role of government to intervene. Other than that, government is only an economic hinderance, and therefore, a threat to the people.

Within the realm of education, many countries have state-sponsored schools and perform better than the U.S. Generally, these countries allow competition amongst schools and allow parents to choose what school their child(ren) will go to. Competition benefits the children, as poor schools fail and good ones thrive.
However, the state still incurs considerable debt in doing so. A debt that will one day be unsustainable.

In the realm of citizen welfare the state fails again. It removes incentive and encourages the poor to maintain their lifestyle at the expense of others. After all, if one in destitution can recieve free money or guaranteed employment, why should they ever change?

Charity does similar things sometimes, but only because contributors allow it to do so. If a charity fails to achieve its' goal or is superceded by another, more effective charity, people will invest their charity dollars somewhere else.

Competition and the free market is what drives society and living standards upwards. Even the poor and disadvantaged benefit, and it has little to do with the collectivization of social authority.

Our money is wasted on humanitarian efforts in socialist or totalitarian countries. The prosperity of those countries is dependent entirely upon the will of their people.

Maybe they will revolt and establish a democratic and economically free regime. Maybe they won't. If so, sucks to be them. They will have to repeat history again.


Do you see what I am saying here? The effectiveness of foreign aid depends upon the nature of the donor state and the recipient state. If the recipient state has a poor economy and a centralist government, there is no hope for prosperity. If the donor state forces its' population to contribute to foreign aid efforts via taxes, it only brings itself closer to economic ruin.

Charity efforts (no matter whether state or private) towards places like the Democratic Republic of Congo or Indonesia or, or India, are a waste. They only make the problem worse.

It is govenrnment which determines the prosperity of the people and it is government which denies the same.

The absolute power of the state should be feared, respected, and brought to heel.
You cannot combat the power of foreign states by throwing money at them or their people.

Consider that before you donate $4 to a rich and evil dictator(president premier, whatever) in some 3rd world hellhole.


What a ridiculously long rant. Thoughts? Anyone?

[Letum]

Well, I wasn't necessarily talking about foreign aid.

Which human charities make the best use of the money is a whole different issue.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Well, I wasn't necessarily talking about foreign aid.

Which human charities make the best use of the money is a whole different issue.

True. Very true. But the overall level of human development depends wholly on the political and economic systems of recipient nations.

So really, considering that the poorest nations in the world have centralist governments and economies, how much good could you do? How do we solve their problems?

[Letum]

Well, I wasn't necessarily talking about foreign aid.

Which human charities make the best use of the money is a whole different issue.
True. Very true. But the overall level of human development depends wholly on the political and economic systems of recipient nations.

So really, considering that the poorest nations in the world have centralist governments and economies, how much good could you do? How do we solve their problems?

I wasn't even necessarily talking about aid to foreign countries at all. ;)

[Frame57]

Oh Sure, they look all cute, cuddly and furry. But when your back is turned those little devils in white fur are saying things about you and I, and it aint purdy. Reckon I think they got it comin....:stare:

[Randomizer]

Don't kid yourselves for a minute. If a seal could do so, he or she would club you and everyone you love...

[joegrundman]

It's club or be clubbed in this doggy dog world:nope:

[Koondawg]

Shave the whales!


Save the plankton!!!

[Stealth Hunter]

Shave the whales!


Save the plankton!!!

WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST.:stare:

[mrbeast]

Lets 'Beat' World Communism - Go Seal Clubbing!

[mrbeast]

UnderseaLcpl, you seem to be advocating a form of social and econmic 'Darwinism', would you agree with this?

[UnderseaLcpl]

I wasn't even necessarily talking about aid to foreign countries at all. ;)

You have piqued my curiosity. What system would you propose? What countries are you talking about? The UK? The US? The EU?


UnderseaLcpl, you seem to be advocating a form of social and econmic 'Darwinism', would you agree with this?

Good heavens no! Of course I don't advocate it. I would love nothing more than to see all the nations of the world engage in free trade, consentual mutual aid, and shared prosperity.

But centralist states destroy that possibility. When they do engage in free trade the people do not benefit as much as they should. Only the State prospers. When other countries aid them, the State of the recipient nation reaps the rewards. They cannot share prosperity because their economic systems are virtual black holes.

The fact is that nations that embrace economic freedom and development will prosper, whereas nations that do not will die. Public debt, whether from war or expansion, destroys nations.
History has shown us this. China, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Germany, Spain, Britain, Portugal, Belgium, China again, Britain again, Germany again, Britain yet again, the Soviet Union, Germany yet again, China again (almost, the introduction of "Special Economic Zones" saved them) and the U.S., in time.

How do you "fix" these states? Diplomacy? Good luck. Military intervention? The U.S. has suffered the failure of that strategy six times now ( not including several minor operations in Central America) The Spanish-American War, WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Operation Iraqi Freedom. All of these wars have done little more than create massive public debt, whilst achieving only limited success in Korea and possibly Iraq.

Nations that suffer from poor economies brought about by centralist regimes will always fail. We (first-world countries) only hasten our own demise by assuming their economic burden.

Social and economic Darwinism is our only recourse. While I would not rule out diplomatic efforts, I doubt they will be of much value.

Evolution and competition are very powerful forces in nature, and they do not abate merely from the presence of human beings.

Perhaps the day will come when we can produce unlimited energy and resources, and in doing so we could entrust a state to provide for all. That day is not today, nor will it come in the near future.

So, economic and social darwinism, while not things I would favor personally, are the forces that will determine that fate of nations, as they always have, for the forseeable future. We can ignore this and falter, or we can embrace it and prosper.
The choice is ours, and thus far, we seem to favor the option of repeating history yet again.

[Letum]

I wasn't even necessarily talking about aid to foreign countries at all. ;)
You have piqued my curiosity. What system would you propose? What countries are you talking about? The UK? The US? The EU?

There are a vast range of human charities.
Study into illness, disability support, community projects, the elderly, children
charities, mental health support, sport related charities, health care funds,
anit-crime projects, education and schools, war veterans groups, etc. etc.

All of them apply to every country in the world, all need money.
It is a crying shame that more money is given to cat homes and the like than to
these, much more deserving, causes in the UK.

[Kraut]

I am no fanatic, but I eat meat very rarely only, and in low quantities, If so, I buy it at a local farm where they are not engaged in intense liferstock farming, and no industrial slaughtering. I see it like this: if you think that animals are lower beings and have no souls, visit an industrial mass slaughterhouse and see what is happening there, see the indifference of humans, the fear and panic of animals, their abuse by totall unalive machinery - and then ask yourself who is the one here showing no soul. Seeing thousands of animals being turned into naked cadavers and shreddered pieces on the blue collar, is an illustration of a vision of hell.

If you want to eat meat, be sure you can bear to kill a living animal with your own hands, and if you feel you could not do it, don't eat meat.

Don't buy meat in supermarkets. Boycott it.

Now take ninto accpunt what probably most of you have seen in pictures and reports about animal transports. Cows with broken legs being tortored with electrshocks at their genitals to make them crawl off the waggon. Sheep carried at one leg by a crane, with the anjle dislocated. Panic and suffering of the animals for one, two, three days. Death by suffocation and no water, heat.

intensive lifestock farming imo is one of the most digusting and shameful disgraces "civilised man" ever became guilty of. It's an obscenity that mocks life and nature, and a declaration of failure of man's ethics.

Well said.

[danlisa]

What is the purpose of this cull?

Is it population control, hide gathering or a meat resource? Or all of the above.

Why club? What's wrong with using a gun or is ammunition too expensive to expend on an animal now? Save that for the bi-pedal types then.:hmm:

[UnderseaLcpl]

There are a vast range of human charities.
Study into illness, disability support, community projects, the elderly, children
charities, mental health support, sport related charities, health care funds,
anit-crime projects, education and schools, war veterans groups, etc. etc.

All of them apply to every country in the world, all need money.
It is a crying shame that more money is given to cat homes and the like than to
these, much more deserving, causes in the UK.

Well, that depends on one's point of view. There are those who do not value human life as much as you or I would, whatever their reasons.

But how do you overcome the massive amounts of debt the UK has incurred?
That debt will harm your country more than any lack or misplacement of charity. Mine as well.

All I'm saying is that in an economically free society fewer people need charity, and those that contribute to charity have more money to give. And charity is more effective than government for resons I outlined above, the main being that people can choose between charities, but they cannot choose their government. There are no true democracies in the world.

Wouldn't it be wiser to attack the power of the state before you attack the supporters of animal charities?

Assuming that you had fiat powers over Parliament, which would you pursue first? The economic freedom of the people? Or the regulation of charity dollars to benefit health and welfare charities?

I'm also questioning the idea that animal charities recieve more money than human welfare charities. That may be true in the U.K., I'm not sure. Do you have a link or a source I could look at that supports that claim? I'm almost afraid to ask because I fear it might be true, but I'd like to have the information anyway.

[Frame57]

What is the purpose of this cull?

Is it population control, hide gathering or a meat resource? Or all of the above.

Why club? What's wrong with using a gun or is ammunition too expensive to expend on an animal now? Save that for the bi-pedal types then.:hmm:People like dyed seal fur, so once they are beaten to a bloody pulp, they do not have to spend the time and money using dye.