Manual TDC-how do you save an attack that goes wrong?

[supposedtobeworking]

I am a manual TDC guy and I recently started playing SH3 again and last night encountered a convoy. I have been at this a while and made usual preparations to calculate an intercept position and 90AOB perpendicular shot. There was a battleship in the middle of the convoy which I had wounded from an earlier attack and that was my target and goal...I had all calculations...calculated...and they were correct. I was about 900m away from the BB undetected still, when I think at that point either became detected, or the convoy changed course. So now my target data deteriorated fast and the BB was on a new course heading away from me, but was still not too far away at around 1000m.

so my question is what do you guys do when this happens and your perfect solution becomes null, but you are in the middle of the frickin convoy?? Is this situation salvagable and if so, how do you save it? What methods can be used to calculate a quick solution when the target turns away, eliminating a 90AOB shot, from you but is still close enough to fire a torpedo with a good chance of hitting? This has to happen to alot of people and as the saying goes, the perfect plan is the flexible plan (I may have made that up...) Basically I just want to know what everyone does when this happens and how each person tries to save what was and still could be a successful hunt.

[Drakken]

1000m is still good for a magnetic shot as it will go under the BB's keel. If you set the speed at Fast you can still get a hit, as a BB is rather cumbersome to veer away.

Aim in the middle, decrease the speed on the TD a bit, change the AoB, and fire ahead. Or you could fire at salvo.

[supposedtobeworking]

ok thanks...what about if the target is zig zagging...any rule of thumb on how to judge AOB, speed etc?

[kylania]

Spam torpedos everywhere, dive and hope for the best! :D

[Pisces]

If you are on his side (in 90 degrees position) his zig-zagging isn't going to help him much. A radical course change (90 degrees), or bigger weaving (60+ degrees) would be better. His average speed will reduce only some because most of the speed is still directed along his course. If this weaving starts when he's close to crossing your bow (likelly he detected your torps) there is not enough time for the BB to slow down (average speed) and avoid it's bow to get hit. And his length is still going to present a huge angle in which your torps may still be able to hit. I.e. Nelson is 216 meters long. At 1000m range it presents an angle of 12 degrees. Don't count on a hit at a specific location though. But I hate wasting torpedo's or not get them where I want them so I'll probably give up the attack and go back to tracking mode.

[joegrundman]

If it's zig-zagging (although the whole zig-zag thing is a little unrealistic) just remember that the base course is unchanged, so you can keep your original solution and do the following check

a) if at close range (up tp 1500 yards) just wait until the target is coming on to present somthing like the expected AOB for the position...and fire
b) if at longer range you have to take into account that the net speed of the target will be a little slower - in this case move the target speed down one knot and fire a spread

[nirwana]

It really depends if its a scheduled course change or just a standard evading measure. If its evading use ure calculated AOB and add the same value as the target change course away from u to the bearing (not to the AOB). Works also in case it changes course towards u. In that case substract it.

If u wanna be on the safe side fire extra eals with same setting every 5s without updating the bearing to the target.

But if ure that close at 90 degree the standard setting zero bearing, AOB 45 with correct speed set u cant really miss.

If its a drastic scheduled course change i have no choice then to prepare a time consuming new approach.

[supposedtobeworking]

Nirwana I don't understand how your method would work...it would seem to me the easiest thing and fastest thing to do would be to just eye the new AOB and fire. would you say that your method would be any more or less accurate than that? I am also not sure about it because by the time I calculate his new course accurately and do the math.. he would have gotten that much farther away-do you pause the game while doing this?...it seems eyeing the AOB would be the quickest solution to a sudden course change.

[nirwana]

I tried this AOB adjusting as well but it didnt work well for me. With my method i dont calculate much. All what i try to figure out is the difference between old and new course of the target and adjust the TDC bearing. It doesnt seem to have a mathematicel foundation but it works for me at close range.

[UnderseaLcpl]

If the convoy course change allows you to make a hard turn and get yourself perpendicular to ships that have not yet passed you (assuming they are viable, big, targets) you should attempt to attack them instead. Don't bother calculating anything or inputting info into the tdc. Impact fuses, 2 or 3m.
Set the gyro angle at 0 and fire from as close to perpendicular as possible, leading the target by 1 degree for each knot of speed. (with a fast G7a) For electrics you should multiply your lead with a G7a by about 133%, as electrics are about 33% slower.
The torpedo should strike very close to where the centerline of your periscope was when you fired if you remember to open the tube first.


IMO, taking a hasty shot at the BB with a mag is a potential waste. Especially at 1000m and growing if the angle is extreme. If you're wrong in your calculations you waste torpedoes. Mags can also predetonate. I never use them against targets that are more than 500m away, and I still get a few failures.

You can always end-around and hit the BB later, unless you are being beset by aircraft and/or are late in the war.


Your judgement and the circumstances of your current campaign are the ultimate factors. A little more elaboration would help with suggestions, though.

What kind of torpedoes? What is your course? What is the convoy's course? What is the convoy speed? What kind of U-boat are you in? How many escorts? How are the escorts positioned? What year in the war? Where are you?
The more detail the better.

[supposedtobeworking]

the situation was I was in the middle of the convoy which was about 5 columns and approx. 5 ships in each column i think. their speed-14 kts, course was about 220 and then they changed course away from me heading northwest more or less (I am not sure how to quickly calculate their exact course in a quick period of time...). diagram:




\ \ \ \ \
\ \ \ \ \
E \ \ BB \ \ ---I was in between this column and the one below it...BB in
\ \ \ \ \ the middle of the third column..I was heading NW perp to
\ \ \ \ \ convoy course. My uboat is a typeVIIC--the "E" is 1 of 3
escorts...the other 2 could have been to the south on
the convoys flank and
east behind the convoy.

time was 1940 or 1941 (don't know the year exactly ... :oops:), but it's early war. anyways, they initiated a course change when I was about 900m from the BB in the middle of the dang convoy. I was slightly leading the BB when it occurred but that changed quickly after the course change in my panic to take action, though exactly what to do to save the situation wasn't clear..hence the thread. the area I was in was about 1000 or so km West of Lorient. so there you have it...what would you have done?

[Kielhauler1961]

What I would do in your circumstances, and have done many times with success, is to forego this attack. Plot the convoy's mean course, wait for it to get on the horizon and then surface and do an end-around for a night attack. If you have been detected and 'spooked' the convoy, they will keep zig-zagging for some hours before calming down and returning to course. Don't act in haste, it's normally a waste! (old naval saying or did I just make that up?).:)

[Puster Bill]

Use the Force, Kaleun.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Wow, 14kts.

That changes things.

Given the convoy's course and speed, an end-around is still possible. Early in the war helps.
If you decide to pursue this, make sure use normal propulsion in your attempt. Charging batteries will slow you down to much. It will be a long chase, should you pursue this option.
If they were heading NNW or NW , there is a good bet that their next course change will be SSW or SW. , so you'll want to be to the south of them for your end-around. This way, you'll be more in their path, should they change course again, and they probably will before you get into position.

If you can engage any good (big) targets now, using your own methods, or the ones I outlined above, I would recommend that you do so. Being engaged will cause the convoy to zigzag and slow them down for about half an hour. Besides, you may not catch them again. And the escorts should be easy to evade in deep water.

Are you using stock sh3 or GWX? Do you have map contact updates on or off?
Two other questions I should have asked.
If they are on, use your ruler with the tool helper on and start a line on the straight edge of one of the merchies if using sh3. Drag it out, keeping along the edge of the ship, then read the bearing on your compass. Drag the line out a good distace, (over a hundred km for a convoy this fast.) It also helps to map all the convoy lanes in this fashion.
In GWX, pick a merchie and use your pencil to put a mark down on the tip of the bow. Wait a couple minutes. Then put another mark on the tip of his bow. Draw a line through the 2 X's and again, use your compass to determine their course. This works for sh3 as well, given the nice, neat ship icons.

Weather is also a factor I forgot to mention. If the seas are rough there is a good chance that they will get worse fairly soon, and you may happen upon the convoy again in a storm:down: If that happens, let me know if you need any help targetting ships using only the hydrophones.


Do your end-around, submerge every hour on the hour for a few seconds to make sure that you are still in contact and they did not change course away again.
Use the bearing lines from your hydrophone contacts for this. Pick one, mark it, watch it for a little bit, and when it moves put down another mark right on the tip of it. Then use your ruler again.

In any of these course-mapping methods, be sure to be zoomed in to the max on the nav map, it helps with precision.


Since you're in a type VII, you have a very limited torpedo supply, and I would recommend the end-around.



I hope maybe that helps you out, but there are some other good suggestions here.:up:

[supposedtobeworking]

cool, thanks for the tips. yeah I should have aborted and done an end around, but I went for it instead and I missed with my last three eels-thats what led me to wonder what other people do in that situation as a last ditch effort to sink something as opposed to spending much time setting up the attack all over again. needless to say, I just sneaked off and returned to port with my head down.

FYI I am using GWX 2.1 with map contact updates ON, and the weather was not terrible...good visibility with maybe 8-11 or so meter seas. the attack was conducting in the morning after sunrise though. I wanted to see the ships clearly due to an earlier unsuccessful night approach. I get relatively impatient after so much setting up carefully and I want something to go BOOM...so I will probably keep trying to save these types of situations in the future.

[Kielhauler1961]

@ supposedtobeworking,

To paraphrase an old saying:

'There are old captains,

And there are bold captains,

But there are no old, bold captains'.

Patience is a virtue in this game! Better hunting next time...

KH.

[predavolk]

I would've taken the shots too. End around might cost you the whole convoy if they change direction or if you get detected. Personally, a BB is enough of a priority target that I'd angle a little ahead, go to flank underwater, and close the gap enough so that any course alterations would be negligible. Then I'd blast the BB with a spread of IMPACT torps if the angle was at all favorable. I wouldn't take the chance that magnetics could fail. Especially if you shoot them at high speed.

Get point blank, 3M depth, Fast, Impact, and let the sucker have it! THEN worry about making your escape. Let that big, fat, *******er hear me coming. It can't move, and the escorts can't do a thing about it either. They'll all know I'm there soon enough as 30,000 tons of British pride go up in flames!

With a Type VII in 1940, in anything other than glass conditions, you should be able to escape fairly easily. From a realism perspective, losing a battleship has the chance to free up Germany's surface fleet, and as such, is a golden opportunity that you shouldn't pass up.

'There are old captains,

And there are bold captains,

But there are no old, bold captains'.

Your job is NOT to live. It's to kill.

'There were meak captains,

There were ace captains,

There were no meak, ace captains'.

That's a touch harsh perhaps, but there's a reason why virtually all of the top scorers didn't make it. WW2 Atlantic submarine warfare is NOT a game for the timid- try the Pacific, or better yet, the Cold War, if you want to live.

"Fortune favors the bold"

"Sieze the day!"

"Do you wanna live forever?"

[Kielhauler1961]

Your job is NOT to live. It's to kill.

...That's a touch harsh perhaps, but there's a reason why virtually all of the top scorers didn't make it. WW2 Atlantic submarine warfare is NOT a game for the timid- try the Pacific, or better yet, the Cold War, if you want to live.

"Fortune favors the bold"

"Sieze the day!"

"Do you wanna live forever?"

Yes, I though your comments were a bit harsh, so here are some of mine. If one cannot 'live' than how can one 'kill'? Your statement is an oxymoron. Timidity doesn't enter into it but stupidity will only get you killed quicker than necessary.

I tend to find that successfully completing a patrol allows me to do another one, and sink more tonnage the next time around. I don't take chances anymore, they just end up getting me killed, and that is a waste of a good boat and an experienced crew. You wanna charge in regardless? Go right ahead. There's another word for bold, it's called 'rash'.

Personally, I've become tired of reloading save games so I'm a lot more cautious now. There will be another target along sometime...:)

[supposedtobeworking]

KH you make a good point....definitely noted....but dammit I should have gone flank and got point blank again...it was a battleship! I think I was detected anyways...and I still got away. Of course that might be suicide later in the war, but the escorts during the period I am in are pretty easy to shake. I was in deep waters too...man, if I wasn't principled enough to stop myself from loading the saved game before the convoy encounter...that's what I would do. Okay I have decided next time (provided sea and time conditions are met), I will go flank and get perp to the new course as best I can and get point blank and finish the dirty work. If it causes my demise...then so be it...it will be....my finest.....hourrrr... okay..thanks for the tips guys.

[nirwana]

If u do that at night with medium visibility or less and possibly with full ahead not flank it works. I have done it dozends of time til summer '41 unloading all eals in 1 night on 1 convoy (hit, run, reloading, closing in, hit, run,reloading etc.). The trick is to make the attacks at locations within or near the convoy out of range of searchlights of any escort when the eals hit. Keep in mind if the BB receives a hit and is not immediately destroyed its activating its longrange searchlights and if it spots me opens fire. Capital warships are the only targets i attack submerged period at close range until im sure they are toast. Then i surface and run to evade the incomming escorts to use my night attack routine in early war.

[predavolk]

Yes, I though your comments were a bit harsh, so here are some of mine. If one cannot 'live' than how can one 'kill'? Your statement is an oxymoron. Timidity doesn't enter into it but stupidity will only get you killed quicker than necessary.

I tend to find that successfully completing a patrol allows me to do another one, and sink more tonnage the next time around. There's another word for bold, it's called 'rash'.


The simple fact of the matter is that you have to be aggressive to get kills. The majority of u-boat captains blanked out, or got next to nothing, because they were not bold enough. Many (some of the same) died because they acted (later) too bold, especially the top aces. But that's the price u-Boats had to pay to remain effective.

In any but the most jaded captain's mind, nailing a British battleship FAR outweighs the loss of a u-Boat and its crew. It's like trading an infantry man for a Tiger tank. Plus, in 1940, the escorts are virtually useless (compared to later in the war), making evasion a real possibility. I think that if a real captain had passed on a 1000M shot at a battleship, said captain would've been relieved of their command for timidity when they returned to port.

Is there a fine line between cowardice and sensible self-preservation? Yes. Is there an equally fine line between productive aggression and rash stupidity? Yes. Patience is a virtue, but it's equally a sin. It's up to the individual Kalheun to decide where that line is, so I guess we can agree to disagree. Personally, I think the supposedtoberight was bang on in trying to get a shot off. I also think that, given that he was hoping to hit the ship and therefore give away his presence, he should have gone to flank in order to give himself the best chance possible. In his defence, it's easy to make these decisions after a long career of experience AND sitting in an armchair away from the drama of that particular moment.

[onelifecrisis]

Use the Force, Kaleun.

:rotfl: