German ROE claim first kill in Afghanistan

[Skybird]

... after how many years...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,573472,00.html

Inside Germany, German policemen may eventually use their pistol to stop a suspect from escaping, if he is considered as dangerous enough that his escape miust be prevented.

But as was said on German TV and was confirmed to me by a friend of mine who is a pro in the BW: German soldiers in Afghanistan may use their weapons in self-defense when being under fire (not any fire, though...) but the moment the person that seconds before was shooting at them or were throwing bombs at them turns around and runs away, they are forbidden to use their weapon anymore.

How ridiculous. How absurd and off-reality.

How grotesque.

The defense minister still does not use the term "war" when reporting about Afghanistan.

Your laughters, please. Any mockery welcome.

[Zero Niner]

I wish you Germans would get over WW2. I appreciate the fact that German society still feels remorse over the war, but c'mon! This is more than 60 years after the fact. To hobble your soldiers (and that's what they are) in a quasi-war scenario just doesn't make sense to me.

You guys need to leave the past behind and adjust to modern day realities and not wallow in some sort of masochistic nostalgia for the days of the Third Reich.

[Happy Times]

I wish you Germans would get over WW2. I appreciate the fact that German society still feels remorse over the war, but c'mon! This is more than 60 years after the fact. To hobble your soldiers (and that's what they are) in a quasi-war scenario just doesn't make sense to me.

You guys need to leave the past behind and adjust to modern day realities and not wallow in some sort of masochistic nostalgia for the days of the Third Reich.

:yep:

Budeswehr would be a great asset to the Western world if used to full of its capabilities.

[Skybird]

Two third of Germans are estimated to be against the BW engagement in Afghanistan. however, a majority of Gemans also is against this egg-dancing the government initiates about it. The attitude of being defensive bnecasue of WW2 is fading, since the younger ones push into spociety, and the older ones remembering WW2 are disappearing. I think that is a normal process. It is just that politicians still abuse WW2 to not accept the risks from such a mission while wishing to take the benefits for reputation from it, and if there are no benefits, then at least to avoid open conflict with the hegemon demanding their participation - by appeasing him with obedience - and still evading the risks.

I made my position on this, and Afghnaistan in general, clear on several occaisons, so I do not go into that again. just the event itself that I started with, I wish to report. really, it is GROTESQUE.

[Happy Times]

Two third of Germans are estimated to be against the BW engagement in Afghanistan. however, a majority of Gemans also is against this egg-dancing the government initiates about it. The attitude of being defensive bnecasue of WW2 is fading, since the younger ones push into spociety, and the older ones remembering WW2 are disappearing. I thinik that is a normal process. It is just that pliticians still abuse WW2 to accept the risks from such a mission while wishing to take the benefits oin reputaiton from it, and if there are no benefits, then at least to avoid open conflict with the hegemon demanding their participation by appeasing him with obedience - and still evading the risks.

I made my psition on this and Afghnaistan in general, clear on several occaisons, so I do not go into that again. just the event itself that I started with, I wish to report. really, it is GROTESQUE.

The Finns have similar ROE, they just overlook it if they feel threatened.

[Skybird]

Budeswehr would be a great asset to the Western world if used to full of its capabilities.
As a matter of fact it is massively underfunded and it's "Auslandseinsätze" are extremely stretched in support and logistics. also, while we have nice and modern toys in very small quantities, the general conditions of all the army'S equipment status makes the BW no longer a top grade army. We are in the process of being overtaken by Poland and chech Republic, some say. Quality of our officers still is worldclass, but their motivation is running low, due to 20 years of constant frustration. there is said to be a personnell drain.

At times, the germans do not have a single working helicopter in Afghanistan, since the six they have often break down or are withdrawn for maintenance - they are too old. While the Germans have formed up the Quick Reaction Force in afghanistan now, you better don't bring yourself into a position where you depend on the "quick" in that label. It could cost you your life. but when they depend on other nations to provide quick transportation, it makes no sense if the Germans form up that force, doesn't it. at least that contingent has slighty changed ROEs, I think.

[Schroeder]

It really is a shame how our boys are equipped over there.:nope:
Some soldiers are buying equipment with their private money for their tasks (night vision etc.).
If I send an army to do a job then I have to give it enough money to get the stuff they need to do it! From what I hear they don't even have enough armoured transports down there.
Hell, we are buying Eurofighters for I don't know how many million € a piece but can't afford to give our soldiers night vision goggles, armoured vehicles and (working) helicopters?

Something is seriously going wrong there.:down:

As Skybird already said: No one wants to pay the bill, but they want to be part of the show.
:damn:

[Konovalov]

Any mockery welcome.
No more needs to be added. Utter nonsense the whole thing. Every soldier in a combat zone is already at a high risk but the Germans literally are fighting with their hands tied behind their backs. Absolutely crazy situation for them to be in. :nope: :nope:

[August]

That's sad Skybird. I pray God protects your brave soldiers from harm.

[August]

That's sad Skybird. I pray God protects your brave soldiers from harm.
Troll :D

I meant it!

[AntEater]

Actually this is just the first kill the mainstream media got their hands on.
According to the reservist magazine "loyal", Fallschirmjäger had two major firefights this year in which they killed Taleban. In one, it was nine KIA, the other five or so.
Strangely, this never made it into the mainstream media.
"Loyal" is not an army newspaper, but rather a semi-official reservist's association magazine, but it is not sold publically, but is distributed via subscription to reservists.
Normally it is dead boring.

The problem in Afghanistan is the "ROE card", which states that an enemy is not to be engaged as soon as he "visibly gives up the fight", that means as soon as he runs away. Weapon use is restricted to self defense.
In legal terms, the Bundeswehr is at peace in Afghanistan and all laws for the peacetime military apply there.
This often leads to such fancy pieces of brainwork that you almost can't believe it.
A problem with the Bundeswehr is the civilian oversight.
Basically, soldiers are restricted to soldiering, everything else is done by civil servants. Administration, procurement, research.
However, the administrative overhead is simply far too large for the downsized Bundeswehr.
Also, the Bundeswehr managed to downsize itself quite strangely.
The overall number of soldiers is roughly half the cold war level, while the overall number of combat troops is only 1/27th of cold war level!
Navy and air Force are better off, but the army has dozens of logistics and communications battalions and only a few tank battalions now.
Another problem is the retention of conscription. The term is nine months now, but due to the short service period, posts where conscripts can serve are so rare that fewer and fewer people get called up.
There are fewer and fewer actual combat units that have conscripts.
And those who do, mostly have volunteer conscripts serving for 2 years.

Another problem is leadership.
Basically, any officer above the rank of brigadier general can be cashiered by the ministry without reason, which has led to rather opportunistic officers in top positions.
A reason for this is also the highly erratic behaviour of the ministers themselves.
In the last years, the defence ministry was a post mostly assigned to political lightweights as a reward.
In some ways, Hellmut Schmidt was the last defense minister of any format, and that was in the 1970s!
The last defense ministers were mostly disastrous. Under Kohl, Volker Rühe caused many of the current problems, disbanded units if he could not fire their overly critical COs and was generally regarded as a bully (Volker Rüpel "Volker the Bully").
Schröder's first, Rudolf Scharping, was simply a dimwhit who should never have held any public office. He even failed as president of the german cycling association.
Peter Struck, the second Schröder defense minister, was somewhat the best of the bunch, no military experience, but Struck was a political animal that knew his way around in german politics and at least he tried.
Franz-Josef Jung, Merkel's defense minister, is simply a coward and a political lightweight. Not to mention he is most likely corrupt as well.
He got this office because he's close to one of Merkel's sharpest rivals in her own Party, Roland Koch. His whole credentials are being close to Koch, and his minister post was a political concession to Koch. Jung is simply a disaster, even if he should have more military experience than average, as he is a reserve officer.
But it really does not show.
Merkel should've given defense to Manfred Schönboom, who's an ex General, but he has no standing in the federal CDU and is too caught up in Brandenburg.

But sometimes I suppose the whole german armed forces should be abolished and reestablished again, in order to start with a clean slate.
There is simply no political will, and the civilian oversight bureaucracy seems to be more interested in limiting the effectiveness of the military than to increase it.

That said, there are bright spots. Officer training is as good as it always has been and the new (post 1990s) generation of officers are totally different from the current. Today's generals come from the 1980s cold war army and tend to see their position as "just another job" while younger officers and career soldiers are just as patriotic and dedicated as US or british soldiers.
Problem is, most of them quit early because of sheer frustration.
Socially, I think the military is more popular than most soldiers think. Germans do not oppose the Afghanistan mission because of antimilitarism or pacifism, but because they question the political and military sense of the operation, especially due to those moronic ROEs.
Bundeswehr soldiers often indulge in self-pity ("nobody loves us") but that is not the case anymore.
Political extremists from left and right have a problem with the military, but the mainstream mostly sees it quite positively.
Ironically, leftists often criticize the Bundeswehr for being too close to the Wehrmacht, while rightists criticize the Bundeswehr for not being close enough
:)

[Skybird]

Franz-Josef Jung, Merkel's defense minister, is simply a coward and a political lightweight. Not to mention he is most likely corrupt as well.
He got this office because he's close to one of Merkel's sharpest rivals in her own Party, Roland Koch. His whole credentials are being close to Koch, and his minister post was a political concession to Koch. Jung is simply a disaster, even if he should have more military experience than average, as he is a reserve officer.

Scharping already was bad, but at leats he did not have much ti9me to do real serious damage, but Jung is a total desaster. In my eyes the worst defense minister germany ever had. the damage he does is really big. He has not much, if any, support in the BW.

In some ways, Hellmut Schmidt was the last defense minister of any format, and that was in the 1970s!
Ah, Schmidt, don't get me dreaming. the most clever and competent chancellor we ever had, imo, and still underestimated by many. Maybe I would voing today if he were still active - and that says a lot about my respect for him. Also, one of the very few people of this dying species one would call "statesmen". Is there any other left? we only know that we could desperately need such people. Politicians of this format and callibre - nowhere to be seen in the West on major national and governmental level. That's why Putin has so easy play with us - he has no opponent of comparable callibre, only yelling wannabe-great-leaders.

[Happy Times]

What would Merkel be like if she didnt have a coalition goverment?

[August]

I wonder, wow does someone tell that an enemy is "giving up the fight" instead of just redeploying for a better shot?

[Tchocky]

That's sad Skybird. I pray God protects your brave soldiers from harm.
Troll :D
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Gah, I hate that smiley. But it's so appropriate :)
August, I know you meant it.
Oh, but lol all the same

[AntEater]

What would Merkel be like if she didnt have a coalition goverment?
Jung is from her own Party, CDU
Problem is, Merkel is head of the CDU and Chancellor because a lot of powerful CDU state prime ministers (Koch of Hesse, Öttinger of Baden-Württemberg, Wulff of lower Saxony and formerly Stoiber of Bavaria) with huge egoes could not decide who's going to be Caesar, so Merkel stepped in that power vacuum.
None of these regional patriarchs is strong enough to command a majority.
She basically rules by displeasing no one. I suppose the SPD is often more accomodating than her own party.
Maybe if the CDU had a coalition with the FDP, Jung or another one of Kochs stooges might've gotten a less important post, but that is speculation.
The FDP would've claimed the foreign ministry, as they always do.

Regarding the ROE, that's exactly the question the soldiers ask themselves:damn:
Apparently the Fallschirmjäger normally shoot first and ask questions later when nobody's looking but here somebody looked.

Even more stupid is that the same rules also apply to the rapid reaction force.
This is a reinforced Panzergrenardier company, lightly motorized, but with a Marder Platoon attached and a mortar battery which is supposed to be the area commander's reserve for offensive operations.
When the Norwegians were still rapid reaction force, the german area commander used them to clear out Taleban positions, but the norwegians have a much more relaxed ROE.
A german unit basically would have to abide by this ROE while conducting a frontal assault on an enemy position.

Many blame this on the parliamentary authorization. Like in the US, in germany longer military operations must be authorized by the parliament.
But both the parliamentary authorization and the UN mandate give us a lot of leeway.
It was Jung and his stooges in the ministry that covered their own asses by interpreting these mandates in the most ristrictive way possible.
Problem is, Jung and many of the upper generals are scared ****less of the german press.
Keep in mind that while nothing really exciting happens, german soldiers are a secretive bunch.
You won't find any soldiers discussing their experiences on blogs or forums, and hardly anyone writing books.
Many still have the mind set that if you're a civilian and interested in military affairs, you're either a right wing militarist or an east german spy
:rotfl:
The official press statements from the MoD are so detached from reality that their Afghanistan might as well be on a different planet than the one the rest of NATO is in.

[1480]

Didn't anyone learn from Somalia.

[kurtz]

I wish you Germans would get over WW2. I appreciate the fact that German society still feels remorse over the war, but c'mon! This is more than 60 years after the fact. To hobble your soldiers (and that's what they are) in a quasi-war scenario just doesn't make sense to me.

You guys need to leave the past behind and adjust to modern day realities and not wallow in some sort of masochistic nostalgia for the days of the Third Reich.

yeah c'mon it's just like riding a bike!

[August]

Many still have the mind set that if you're a civilian and interested in military affairs, you're either a right wing militarist or an east german spy

Geez no wonder Skybird hates me! :D

[SUBMAN1]

...then at least to avoid open conflict with the hegemon demanding their participation - by appeasing him with obedience - and still evading the risks.


Hegemon? Last I checked, you guys were free to do as you wish. Is that how you see the US?

-S