That Chinese Gymnast is only 14!!!

[SUBMAN1]

I thought she looked about 12 personally. Anyway, I guess she will be disqualified.

-S

http://www.dailytech.com/Search+Engine+Hacker+Reveals+Chinese+Gymnasts+True +Age/article12728.htm

[Platapus]

I would be happy if they put the minimum age for participating in the olympics at 18.

Children should not be competing at this level.

[Raptor1]

Doing something like that suits the Chinese so much :rotfl:

[SUBMAN1]

Thats cheating as a gymnast too - less ground to clear with a smaller body. A smaller frame of a child has many advantages over an adult frame in this sport.

-S

[Digital_Trucker]

No matter what age they start competing at, I don't think the government should be allowed to take these children from their families at the age of 3 in order to make them show pieces for national pride.

[Raptor1]

Bah, it's the Chinese government, they do whatever they want

Damn commies...

[SUBMAN1]

No matter what age they start competing at, I don't think the government should be allowed to take these children from their families at the age of 3 in order to make them show pieces for national pride.

It's Communism man! Hasn't this always been their way?

-S

[Digital_Trucker]

No matter what age they start competing at, I don't think the government should be allowed to take these children from their families at the age of 3 in order to make them show pieces for national pride.
It's Communism man! Hasn't this always been their way?

-S
Seems to be that way. But as a member of a "fringe political group" (inside jab), I feel I must protest the human rights side of this controversy. It may have been that way for ages, but it doesn't have to continue (although, I'm sure it will).

[SUBMAN1]

Seems to be that way. But as a member of a "fringe political group" (inside jab), I feel I must protest the human rights side of this controversy. It may have been that way for ages, but it doesn't have to continue (although, I'm sure it will).There is no human rights for Communists. Never has been, never will be. Hence why we've been fighting it since WWII.

-S

[Frame57]

Didn't these goobers also make the medals out of lead or something?

[UnderseaLcpl]

Seems to be that way. But as a member of a "fringe political group" (inside jab), I feel I must protest the human rights side of this controversy. It may have been that way for ages, but it doesn't have to continue (although, I'm sure it will).There is no human rights for Communists. Never has been, never will be. Hence why we've been fighting it since WWII.

-S

SUB, didn't you read Animal Farm? ALL animals are equal. But some are more equal than others.

[SUBMAN1]

Seems to be that way. But as a member of a "fringe political group" (inside jab), I feel I must protest the human rights side of this controversy. It may have been that way for ages, but it doesn't have to continue (although, I'm sure it will).There is no human rights for Communists. Never has been, never will be. Hence why we've been fighting it since WWII.

-S
SUB, didn't you read Animal Farm? ALL animals are equal. But some are more equal than others.Hahahaha! :rotfl:That cracked me up!

-S

[Sailor Steve]

:p On the Olympics anyway! My opinion is that gymnastics shouldn't even be in the olympics. That goes for any so-called sport that requires judges to say who's best. Either you win or you lose. :p

[Skybird]

Now to the real interesting part of Olympics: genetic doping. ;)

[Jimbuna]

Now to the real interesting part of Olympics: genetic doping. ;)

LOL :lol:

[ASWnut101]

I would be happy if they put the minimum age for participating in the olympics at 18.
Children should not be competing at this level.


Why?



A smaller frame of a child has many advantages over an adult frame in this sport.


It also has its disadvantages. :yep:


===============

In my opinion, I'd take the article with a grain of salt for now. Perhaps a more...official investigation would be in order.

[Jimbuna]

If there's a dropping of age restrictions and with youngsters there, we'd probably see Gary Glitter entering for the high jump :p

[Digital_Trucker]

If there's a dropping of age restrictions and with youngsters there, we'd probably see Gary Glitter entering for the high jump :p

Or the pole vault:doh: (sorry, couldn't resist)

[baggygreen]

I've read bout this a few days ago, apparently they're not even going to worry about it because so many of the sites (official chinese ones) that had listed her true age were taken down as soon as rumours emerged...

I agree with steve in saying get rid of sports that require judges - anyone see the tied scores that went against the yank?? you either win or lose or draw. If you draw, thats the same as a win, you can't seperate them!!

And do away with team sports while we're at it:yep:

[SUBMAN1]

It also has its disadvantages. :yep: ...From mat length for a routine, to full body in air twists, flips, you name it, a small body has all the chips.

Where does it fail? What I speak about is a known fact. I am not aware of any negatives in this type of game.

-S

[joegrundman]

I'm not sure what the fuss is - is it only women's sports that may not field under 16s, or only gymnastics?

Britain has also entered a 14 year old in the Olympics. He didn't do too well though

http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/BIO/Athlete/2/225172.shtml

[Digital_Trucker]

Well, I heard it on TV, so I can't vouch for the accuracy, but it looks like the IOC at least claims they are going to look into the matter. :hmm:

[darius359au]

I'm not sure what the fuss is - is it only women's sports that may not field under 16s, or only gymnastics?

Britain has also entered a 14 year old in the Olympics. He didn't do too well though

http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/BIO/Athlete/2/225172.shtml

Different sports have different age limits , IIRC Gymnastics is 16 though.

[ASWnut101]

It also has its disadvantages. :yep: ...From mat length for a routine, to full body in air twists, flips, you name it, a small body has all the chips.

Where does it fail? What I speak about is a known fact. I am not aware of any negatives in this type of game.

-S

On the uneven bars and with vaulting (and no doubt there are other things). For the bars, a shorter, smaller (33kg in this case) has a harder time building the force to transition from the low bar to the high bar, and let alone add a maneuver to it. A longer, heavier (don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about obese people :D ) person would have a much easier time.

For vaulting, it's kinda obvious. The lighter person cannot deliver as much force to the springboard as a heavier person, reducing how high the gymnast can vault. Shorter vaults equal less time in the air, which equals less time for performance, which equals a higher difficulty.


P.S. I am an Olympics enthusiast. It's simply my nature to argue about things related to them. No hard feelings. :D




Different sports have different age limits , IIRC Gymnastics is 16 though.


For this year, in women's artistic, the FIG rules state that the minimum age is 16 years old. However, except for last year, 15 year olds were also admitted to the World Championships (Olympics), and it was allowed this year. From next year on, the minimum age will be 16 years old, with no exceptions.


I'm not sure what the fuss is - is it only women's sports that may not field under 16s, or only gymnastics?

Britain has also entered a 14 year old in the Olympics. He didn't do too well though

For the senior olympics, the minimum gymnastics age for men's and women's artistic is 16 years old, with the exception made above. For trampoline, it's 18, with a 17 year old special exception. Rhythmic is 16, Acrobatic 15, and Aerobic is 18.

For juniors (Junior Olympics), Men's Artistic is 14 years, Women's is 13. Rhythmic and Trampoline are 13. Acrobatic is 12, and Aerobic is 14.

[SUBMAN1]

On the uneven bars and with vaulting (and no doubt there are other things). For the bars, a shorter, smaller (33kg in this case) has a harder time building the force to transition from the low bar to the high bar, and let alone add a maneuver to it. A longer, heavier (don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about obese people :D ) person would have a much easier time.

For vaulting, it's kinda obvious. The lighter person cannot deliver as much force to the springboard as a heavier person, reducing how high the gymnast can vault. Shorter vaults equal less time in the air, which equals less time for performance, which equals a higher difficulty.


P.S. I am an Olympics enthusiast. It's simply my nature to argue about things related to them. No hard feelings. :DNone taken.

Looking at the transitions between the low and high bar - they are almost non-existant to start with. Longer people I have also frequently seen them hit the ground while on the shorter bar, limiting their entire routine almost to the high. Shorter people do not have this problem.

The spring board is used once for mounting - that is it. Seems to have no effect as you describe either.

I do not agree with either of your assesments.

-S

[Stealth Hunter]

Not surprising the Chinese would lie about the ages of their athletes.

Once upon a time, Olympians had lives outside of the stadium. They had other jobs, they had other hobbies, and they went about these things as we common folk do. For some, this is still the case.

For a Chinese Olympian, life consists of training, lying, and discipline. That IS their job, their purpose: to make their country look all powerful and invincible...:nope:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Not surprising the Chinese would lie about the ages of their athletes.

Once upon a time, Olympians had lives outside of the stadium. They had other jobs, they had other hobbies, and they went about these things as we common folk do. For some, this is still the case.

For a Chinese Olympian, life consists of training, lying, and discipline. That IS their job, their purpose: to make their country look all powerful and invincible...:nope:

Is it that much different from an American Olympian? I hope the lying part is the main difference....

[Stealth Hunter]

Most American athletes in the Olympics do have other lives outside of competing. The fact of the matter is unless you're a superb Olympian, you'll have to get a regular job. It just won't pay for you.

Michael Phelps, for instance, has been a pro-athlete swimmer since 16 and became a millionaire at 18. He has never had a real job outside swimming (unless you count the jobs he did for his uncle, but family errands really don't mean much, IMO).

Phelp's job is to swim. He gets a ridiculous amount of money from companies and corporations like VISA, SPEEDO, etc.

If they can convince him to use their gear, then he'll get money... a sh**load of it. He can easily rake in $50 million by the end of the 2008 Olympics.

[joegrundman]

Michael Phelps is incredible

If he was a separate country, he'd be in the 9th ranking place in the world!

Btw - has anyone noticed britain's unbelievable performance? Third place, with Russia catching up fast, but wow, how did that happen?:rock:

[bookworm_020]

The main benifit of being that young in female gymnastics is that they are more flexiable that older gymnasts. You get more strenght a they get oler but less flexiable.

[kranz]

Michael Phelps is incredible

If he was a separate country, he'd be in the 9th ranking place in the world!



I see a ghost of Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones....



Btw - has anyone noticed britain's unbelievable performance? Third place, with Russia catching up fast, but wow, how did that happen?:rock:

only because one guy can ride a bike...

[Jimbuna]

only because one guy can ride a bike...

That's funny....my mathematics tells me that he wasn't involved in 5 of the 8 cycling golds :hmm:

Take away those 3 golds and we still have 15...now how many did poland get ? ;)

[Koondawg]

update

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=dw-iocprobe082208&prov=yhoo&type=lgns (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=dw-iocprobe082208&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

[kranz]

That's funny....my mathematics tells me
that's why you are not a math teacher...

Yeah, ok-my country sux.Happy? I will invite you to Poland some day and you will have to find a 50m swimming pool. :rotfl: Or deep enough to jump from 10m platform. Didn't find any? We are famous for our sports "managers". One was found sleeping on a grass. How many of these UK or USA had? Only one guy stabbed.

PS:oh, my 100th post! I'm gonna spam here more!

[Jimbuna]

update

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=dw-iocprobe082208&prov=yhoo&type=lgns (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=dw-iocprobe082208&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

I love it :rotfl: ......Overall medal counting system :lol:

:up:

[Jimbuna]

That's funny....my mathematics tells me
that's why your are not a math teacher...

Yeah, ok-my country sux.Happy? I will invite you to Poland some day and you will have to find a 50m swimming pool. :rotfl: Or deep enough to jump from 10m platform. Didn't find any? We are famous for our sports "managers". One was found sleeping on a grass. How many of these UK or USA had? Only one guy stabbed.

PS:oh, my 100th post! I'm gonna spam here more!

LOL :lol: :up:

[Digital_Trucker]

Not surprising the Chinese would lie about the ages of their athletes.

Once upon a time, Olympians had lives outside of the stadium. They had other jobs, they had other hobbies, and they went about these things as we common folk do. For some, this is still the case.

For a Chinese Olympian, life consists of training, lying, and discipline. That IS their job, their purpose: to make their country look all powerful and invincible...:nope:
Is it that much different from an American Olympian? I hope the lying part is the main difference....
Well, the lying part and the part where the government drags the child from their home at the age of three to become a showpiece for the country.:nope:

Most American athletes in the Olympics do have other lives outside of competing. The fact of the matter is unless you're a superb Olympian, you'll have to get a regular job. It just won't pay for you.

Michael Phelps, for instance, has been a pro-athlete swimmer since 16 and became a millionaire at 18. He has never had a real job outside swimming (unless you count the jobs he did for his uncle, but family errands really don't mean much, IMO).

Phelp's job is to swim. He gets a ridiculous amount of money from companies and corporations like VISA, SPEEDO, etc.

If they can convince him to use their gear, then he'll get money... a sh**load of it. He can easily rake in $50 million by the end of the 2008 Olympics.

All true, but he made that choice, didn't he? And ask the Chinese parents why they won't let their child come home after they've been "conscripted" into the program. The differences are few, but they are major differences.

[XabbaRus]

The whole meaning of the olympics has changed. It is supposed to be about amateur atheletes, those with regular jobs with some sponsorship to cover training costs but that is it.

Now they have the likes of Tennis and Football in the games. Fine if it was competitors from a local amateur team, but they have national teams and likes of Darya Safina and Williams playaing. That's professional is it not. They earn money playing.

We might as well have darts...and snooker. More golds for the UK then.

[Digital_Trucker]

The whole meaning of the olympics has changed. It is supposed to be about amateur atheletes, those with regular jobs with some sponsorship to cover training costs but that is it.

Now they have the likes of Tennis and Football in the games. Fine if it was competitors from a local amateur team, but they have national teams and likes of Darya Safina and Williams playaing. That's professional is it not. They earn money playing.

We might as well have darts...and snooker. More golds for the UK then.

Don't forget BMX bike riding:rotfl: The Olympics have come a long way, it's just in the wrong direction:o

[Takeda Shingen]

The whole meaning of the olympics has changed. It is supposed to be about amateur atheletes, those with regular jobs with some sponsorship to cover training costs but that is it.

Now they have the likes of Tennis and Football in the games. Fine if it was competitors from a local amateur team, but they have national teams and likes of Darya Safina and Williams playaing. That's professional is it not. They earn money playing.

We might as well have darts...and snooker. More golds for the UK then.

Don't forget BMX bike riding:rotfl: The Olympics have come a long way, it's just in the wrong direction:o

The 'modern' games have never been in the right direction, even from the roots of the 'gentlemanly' competitor. The original concept of the modern Olympic Games was deeply rooted in the biases of race and class. Today, while those distinctions are gone, the Olympics are little more than an international p*ssing contest, where nation states seek to assert their superiority over each other my pitting their state-funded, trained and [sometimes] chemically-altered 'athletes' against each other in the persuit of the all-important medal count. That nations with more questionable leadership would restort to underhanded methods should hardly be astounding.

[kranz]

chess was meant to be on some Olympics but finally the decision was rejected-but I don't remember-was in 2008 or 2012 ?
There is a "game" in which you use small plastic "sticks" to move other plastic sticks-dunno the english name. I would put it into London's 2012 so that Jimbuna could boast more about GB medals.

[Jimbuna]

Boxing is now in danger of being dropped as an olympic sport.

[Takeda Shingen]

Boxing is now in danger of being dropped as an olympic sport.

The terrible irony is that boxing is one of the few events of the modern era to actually have roots in the ancient Olympics. They certainly didn't swim, nor play basketball.

[Skybird]

chess was meant to be on some Olympics but finally the decision was rejected-but I don't remember-was in 2008 or 2012 ?
There is a "game" in which you use small plastic "sticks" to move other plastic sticks-dunno the english name. I would put it into London's 2012 so that Jimbuna could boast more about GB medals.
Last time i checked, chess still held its own olympics, since the 20s, until today. they do so every two years, if i remember correctly. It is considered to be the most important chess team championship indeed.

There is also a new sports called chess-boxing (non-olympic). they box one round, then sit down for 5 minutes or so to play chess, then box a new round, and so forth.

[ASWnut101]

:-? Just curious, but you did watch the Olympics this year, particularly the Gymnastics (all of it)? I've seen plenty of Low-to-High transistions this year. Even the announcer guy was talking about it (and the whole size-related difficulties of the smaller gymnasts).


[quote]The spring board is used once for mounting - that is it. Seems to have no effect as you describe either.

I'm not talking about mounting the bars. I'm talking about Vaulting, a totally different routine...



Is it that much different from an American Olympian?


:-? Try asking one.

[Platapus]

There is also a new sports called chess-boxing (non-olympic). they box one round, then sit down for 5 minutes or so to play chess, then box a new round, and so forth.

Really? What a strange combination.

I can understand the Biathlon combintion but not boxing chess.

Wow

[peterloo]

Not surprising the Chinese would lie about the ages of their athletes.

Once upon a time, Olympians had lives outside of the stadium. They had other jobs, they had other hobbies, and they went about these things as we common folk do. For some, this is still the case.

For a Chinese Olympian, life consists of training, lying, and discipline. That IS their job, their purpose: to make their country look all powerful and invincible...:nope:
Is it that much different from an American Olympian? I hope the lying part is the main difference....
Agreed. If this is the case, then it is just another cheating case, no worser than the doping cases commited by US atheletes. Remember Jones... Well, it makes no difference then

I am not trying to contain the case or what. If there are evidence (e.g. birth certificate), it means something. IF this is just a rumor, forget it. But I must admit that China did do a hell lot of work in order to show off in this stage, both legally (training) or perhaps illegally.

Did US Athelete did a much different job when compared to those Chinese ones? No. They do training all they long, and make people feel USA is the leading pioneer in sports. Unfortunately they failed to do it in 2008, as clearly, they have been beaten by China, so the mass media arranged the medal standing to count the total number of medal but not the previous rule (or the general rule) of counting the gold medal first. Although it is not against the IOC guidelines, it do show something about US and indeed, the whole Western culture

It clearly shows that a majority of US people are NOT willing to accept the fact of losing to China. Isn't it show the importance national pride and might what the US athlete and Chinese athlete are striking for?

Let's see what the future 2012 holds...

(modified: changed "... not against the rules, it do show..." to "...not against the IOC guidelines, it do show ...")

[peterloo]

sorry double posted

[mookiemookie]

It clearly shows that a majority of US people are NOT willing to accept the fact of losing to China. Isn't it show the importance national pride and might what the US athlete and Chinese athlete are striking for?

Let's see what the future 2012 holds...

(modified: changed "... not against the rules, it do show..." to "...not against the IOC guidelines, it do show ...")
What matters is that you play by the rules.

It's been shown that official Chinese government web sites showed that He Kexin was not 16 years old at the time of this year's Olympics, and that's the matter at stake here. It's not a national pride thing, it's a "let's all play by the rules" thing. If you can't play by the rules, then DON'T COMPETE.

[Enigma]

Women's softball, which I happen to enjoy, is out of the Olympics as of this year. What a disgrace. Every time I turn on the TV and see a guy in a canoe, a bunch of women "speed walking" :roll: or 2 different types of volleyball, I have to say to myself..."...and we're taking softball out!?"

Many feel it;s because the Americans usually gut the competition. They lost the gold medal game this year. Maybe that will help. :nope:

[Skybird]

There is also a new sports called chess-boxing (non-olympic). they box one round, then sit down for 5 minutes or so to play chess, then box a new round, and so forth.

Really? What a strange combination.

I can understand the Biathlon combintion but not boxing chess.

Wow
Why not? The contrast must be an excessive challenge, due to the physical extremes. just think about the blood pressure and it'S up and down during this. It is extremely difficult to calmy think with your symphaticus still in boxing mode and your high blood pressure feeding back into your brain.

[kranz]

I would be happy if they put the minimum age for participating in the olympics at 18.

Children should not be competing at this level.

it is funny that no one mentioned him- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Daley_(diver)

yankees started to cry because chineese kid stole their cold...It is ridiculous that you have to be 16 to do the gymnastics while you can jump from 10 meters when 14

[STEED]

Boxing is now in danger of being dropped as an olympic sport.

Yea but we got womens beach volleyball. :)

And maybe in 2012 nude lesbian beach volleyball. ;)

[Jimbuna]

Boxing is now in danger of being dropped as an olympic sport.

Yea but we got womens beach volleyball. :)

And maybe in 2012 nude lesbian beach volleyball. ;)

No problem....preparations/training is already underway ;)

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7815/paradise03oo0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[peterloo]

What matters is that you play by the rules.

It's been shown that official Chinese government web sites showed that He Kexin was not 16 years old at the time of this year's Olympics, and that's the matter at stake here. It's not a national pride thing, it's a "let's all play by the rules" thing. If you can't play by the rules, then DON'T COMPETE.

I know that this topic revolves about the rule stuff, but I have to point out that national pride has something to do with excessive negative comments to this game. I doubt why this game has been that controversial. Sorry if you consider this off topic, really

I am also trying to bring this topic back on track. It seems the replies are getting more and more irrelevant

Today, I read my copy of newspaper, and it said that girl is confirmed to be 16 by IOC after Chinese government handed in the passport or other identification stuff.
Now I am not sure if the passport is forged later to cover up the case, or is genuine. Anyway, in order to prevent such cases from happening again, I guess more strict penalty must be imposed and the process of selecting competitors must be made more transperent

Equally sarcastic is Tom Daley (British --- 14 in 2008). Of course, no westen medias want to mention it, but to make it fair, both cases must be handled equally and reported fairly by the mass media. (thank you Mikhayl for bringing up this)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Daley_(diver)

"Man are created equal" but why different people receive different treatments and preceptions based on their nationality or race?

[Skybird]

I know that this topic revolves about the rule stuff, but I have to point out that national pride has something to do with excessive negative comments to this game.
If criticising of China not sticking to the rules is considered unpolite in China, then this is a problem of your social rules, not ours. Identity documents of the girls in question showing black on white that their age is 14, not 16, have been shown in the news.

The IOC is heavily biased, it made a terrible mistake to give the games to China in this naive hope that it would cause a relaxation in the attitude of a nation when they see that the sky is not falling down on them if allowing some more freedoms and being less controlling. No wonder they play ball now. The chinese are in the stronger psoiton, and the damage is being done. The IOC now is about rejecting it's responsibility for the mess.

Instead we hear of these two old ladies at the end of their 70s who got sentenced to 1 year reeducation camp for having filed a request to be allowed to protest inside the official protest zones - for having caused a disturbance of public order. The casualness of the the chinese speaker at the conference yesterday who defend and explained this as if it were the most natural thing on earth, without any obvious awareness that it is both absurd and wrong, was revealing, so was the obvious discomfort and total helplesness of the beautiful young women the IOC had sent in order to gloss over it and reject any responsibility for it. All the two grannies wanted is to bring it to attention that they had been expropriated, their homes taken away and destroyed, and them not having been given any compensation at all, now living in miserable and poor conditions. Thousands share their fate, and scores more if you consider not the Olypic games, but the building of this crazy super-dam of theirs, where hundreds of thousand were forced to give up their homes. By all respect for cultural differences, this is sick and cynical. German news some days ago showed that it has been proven that - at that time - over 64 attempts were made of filing request for getting permission to demonstrate - and one time it was denied and 63 times people were talked out of the idea, and their identities being logged. Not a single demonstration has taken place in the offocial way, and those minor events taking place happened by explicit ignorration of the rules - else they never would have happened, too. when the games have ended and the cameras are gone, the authorities will reach out at any perceived "disturbers of public order" in full strength, this is sure.

So it cannot wonder anyone that the IOC keeps itself covered. They messed up big time, and they want to evade being asked too critical questions about their naive and also selfish decision. Many promises China gave, were not kept, and too many places in the audience had to be filled by payed audience and ordering people to join the ranks. the public interest by far has not met the IOC's projections. the chinese even tolerated black market ticket sales, just to get more people into the stadiums. It took place under the eyes of police patrols who noted it.

I am aware that this is one side of the games only. the other side is many thousands of volunteers who really enjoyed to participate with their free contributions of work, and showed idealism in doing so. It would be unfair to ignore all this. However, the political abuse of the games, and the failure on the level of officials both in the IOC and China, cannot be ignored. So, best advise is to have a differentiated view at it all. On personal levels, it may have been fine, and i congratualte the many aids and volunteers and those people who in all innocence just lived up to the idea and did not know it any better. To them we have reason to say: well done! But on the official level, I rate these games as a desaster for the IOC and the Olympic idea. A total catastrophe, and a total PR desaster for the IOC.

Adding to the amount of this desaster - and here it is not only china's responsibility but the resposibility of a totally gone crazy sports business and it's diabolic relation to economics - is the money that plays a role, and the importance of chemical dopin, genetic doping, and in case of china the highly questionable effort to run state-driven programs that force tens of toiusands of little children into most painful and almost abusing sports selection programs that like in the former Eastern block states aim to produce "sport soldiers" that for the nation's fame will produce gold medal winners by blue-collar-methods - at the cost of the longterm health and private interests of the kids thrown into this system. Here is the difference between the West's focus on individuality and the East's focus on collectivism showing one of it'S most ugly faces.

The interest in germany i would describe as having been extremely low, the news reported the results, yes, and there were sport programs live, yes. But people - did not take much attention here, and there is not much talk about it all. And even before china, the Olympic idea already had been killed. It started with 1972, when the commercial show was rated to be more important than piety (the olympic idea of keeping peace during the game was shattered by reality despite the decision to carry on), and in later years the increasing commercialization of the games. It is no secret that this time it resulted in the IOC giving the games to china (witzh smelling excuses) for business reasons, and that china already had bought of many small nation's delegates to make them voting for Peking in 2008. In other words - massive bribery gave china the games.

Seen these ways, the games stink.

But if you meet any of the volunteer workers in Bejing, I am sure you nevertheless would see very often pride and some idealism in the man or woman you speak to, and it would be unfair to ignore that most of these anonymous helping hands enjoyed to do what they did, or to assume they all were in full knowledge of the political issues behind the scene, and that they support it, and that they met many strangers from all the world with great friendliness. So please, guys: keep these two levels separate, always, the political and economical level, and the private and individual level.

Regarding the athletes, I just wish they will develope an attitude that makes them less willing to accept the massive perverting of the Olympic idea for the sake of their (understandable) selfish desires (both medals, and fame and future money). Becasue as understandable as it may be - I perceive it as wrong, and think that the interests of the idea in principle overrule the interest of the individual athlete.

Legalize doping and manipulation, so that no more illusions can be held about that it all is just a show. Leave it to the single athlete to decide wether he wants to risk his health or claim medals by cheating and see value and honour in it despite using cheats, or declare that he is about money only anyway. that way, all would be free to equal their chances with those chances chosen by others, or not. Medical experts so often have shown that in sheer energy calculation some sports, namley cycling, show results and efforts that naturally and biologically the human body simply is unable to produce for they are beyond natural limits of the body's cell-physiology. so of what worth is all this guessing about how clean or unclean a winner is even if his doping tests were negative? The mere result of having won often is the most obvious evidence that somebody was doped. and today, the borderline between allowed treatements and doping are fluent and often transparent anyway.so give permission to run the show in public, and be aware that it is more about show and business profits anyway. the Olympic idea since long is dead as dead can be anyway.

the last games I really enjoyed to see were the games in L.A., 1984, although people say it already was too much business there, but I ws young and did not realise it. I consummed them from A to Z, all day long, from the first to the last day, and I still have them in my mind. But later, the perverting and abuse of the original Olympic idea had become so obvious to me that Olympic games did not catch my attention anymore. They even wouldn'T if they happen to take place in Germany.

[peterloo]

Really? I don't know that it is legal for a 14 to complete in Olympics diving event. But I wonder why would that Wikipedia acticle be locked??? (okay, no critism here, just some curisity) Again... it brings Skybird to have his thousand word post posted...

In either way, I am NOT saying China is not guilty or what. But in this case, I prefer the converage of the Westen media. I believe that the athlete illegal to join, unless I get further evidences.

As all of you know, the political incidents that happened before, including the rebellion that happened on the date of 14 March, and the Chinese handling of some protests, especially those related to forbidden stuff, like Dali Lama. And I also understand that the relocation of some homes did fell to disarray. But I must say that this is already a great improvement when compared to her previous records.

In the past, no protests are allowed. Now, limited protest are allowed.

Of course, when compared to the SARs or the West, a huge rife still exists between their level of democracy. But anyway, it is still a great improvement.

In the end, the government is still quite concerned on the "face" issue. That's why protests on the controversial topics are still not allowed. But I guess the top government leaders and most people (especially netizens) are aware of the issues themselves. They try to rectify them, but in a way that they won't hurt themselves and won't backfire.

And in fact, improvements are underway. If you recall cultral revolution, no religious activities are allowed, and temples, churches and mosques are burnt down. Now, although trying to preach to one below 18 is still illegal, at least, some freedom is given for us for our religion.

Can I compare this to the liberalism that emerged after American revolution and French revolution. No matter how the kings of the other countries try to contain the spread of the new ideas, eventually, all of them have monachry abolished. Of course, it takes times to happen.

Considering that how long it takes from Britain or other westen coutry to accept the concept of a consitution and reject "Divine right of king", isn't asking China to shift from a current one party rule to the Westen system of democracy in 5 or 10 years, an over-ambitious goal?

Finally, if you say that the government of PRC do not want the people to have freedom afterall, I must remind you that most kings in the age of enlightenment did not want to accept this concept as well, yet it finally prevailed. A revolution isn't compulsory --- kings can also foefeit their rights as well, if sufficient pressure and open-ness exists. I believe that China in 30 years will match your standard of democracy, as the leaders are getting more and more open. Mao want to claim back Taiwan by brute force (only to find the American fleet protecting Taiwan) but now Hu emphasis mutual recognisation and non-denial (albeit the final goal of reunion) is a clear illustraton of this

(edit: added the bolded part to aviod confusion)