destroyer evasion and attack strategies

[Urge]

It was a dark and stormy night, immersed in the pacific, I am trolling for Japanese ships while tunes from the 40s play in the background. In a darkened room with the throbbing of the diesels soothing my brain as I'm gripping the arms of my chair anxiously awaiting the next response from the enemy who is relentlessly pursuing me. Totally absorbed, I have been taken to another world just like in the best literature or movies. Addicted, Oh Yeah!
I've only been playing this game for a few months but it has definitely sucked me in-bigtime. I started playing the stock v.1.4 with some minor mods and felt a little cocky, I was hangin' with the bad guys and giving out more than I was getting. and then... and then... and then along came jones-scratch that and damn those misfiring sinapses-and then I installed TMO! Curse you Ducimus, my life is a wreck just like my boat. Those destroyers are unbelievable!!! I don't even hear depth charges being dropped some times and out of nowhere all of a sudden I have massive damage everywhere. I'm twisting, I'm turning, changing depths, trying deparately to get off a shot at my tormenter(he rarely goes farther than 500 yds giving me a very small opening to make a shot that will arm before it gets to him) but the snake has a masters in evasion and eludes my fish. It gets worse, he has a doctorate in offensive tactics and sniffs out my watery den every time and kicks the living s--- out of me. Frustrated, Hell Yeah!! I've only been playing TMO for a week or two but it has humbled me quickly. However, I have a lot of Irish in me and I will prevail-eventually. I've been reading the TMO vs RFB thread in the Fleet Boat Mods forum and was inspired to write this to attempt to stimulate a discussion of evasion and offensive tactics against the destroyers and subchasers etc. So, how about it all you seasoned Captains out there? Care to discuss your strategies, your sucesses and failures so that your brothers in arms can share in the harvest? If I show up back in Pearl now they are going to give me a desk job for sure, not me, I'm cyphoning fuel off enemy tankers and I'm staying out here until I get this s--- down. Determined, Oh Yeah!!! Urge*

ghost written by Edward Bulwer-Lytton

Oh, Damn. I started writing this last night and didn't look at the fleet boat mods thread today and they have started discussing this there now. Banjo
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=140918
asked for input and a sticky Oh well, a day late and a dollar short-again.

[Task Force]

Yea thats those advanced distroyer sencers, No longer are the distroyers stupit like in stock 1.4. Myself I use RFB 1.5 and those distroyers will pound my boat for hours. But I almpst always get away. Ive attacked a task force sunk three carriers and got no damage.:D

[Webster]

Yea thats those advanced distroyer sencers, No longer are the distroyers stupit like in stock 1.4. Myself I use RFB 1.5 and those distroyers will pound my boat for hours. But I almpst always get away. Ive attacked a task force sunk three carriers and got no damage.:D

RFB actually makes the depth charges weaker on purpose because war records show that ijn results were not that impressive so to represent this the survival rate of being depth charged is much greater.

going a different path the trigger maru mod tries to crank up the sensors and difficulty levels way past reality to make the game very hard so if a challenge is needed try that mod.

[Rockin Robbins]

Now let's not make TMO into the unbeatable enemy. It is not. It also does not forgive errors and will sometimes kill you when you do the right thing. A couple of observations.

Just because an escort is pinging does not mean that he knows where your are. If you're deep below a thermal layer, or for some reason, at periscope depth on silent running and presenting a low aspect ratio (pointed at him) there is a good chance he doesn't have a clue. Resist the urge :rotfl:(sorry, couldn't resist) to make violent action. This is where the first one to flinch loses. Watch him carefully. Listen. Is he moving slow with constant speed? Is he turning the pinging on and off? He's hoping to lure you into making a higher speed run for "safety." Don't take the bait. Only evade if you know he detects you. This is the hardest thing to learn.

When you have multiple escorts looking for you one is always listening while the others ping. I like to stay at periscope depth at silent running while I evaluate the intelligence of the boats. Do we have high rated or low rated adversaries. Usually you have both. What are they doing? Poke up that scope, pre-aimed to the bearing of an escort and look for 10 to 15 seconds and lower it. You're looking for one boat to pull out slightly and stop to listen. Then it's time for some payback. Set torpedo for as shallow as you can and at the bearing of the parked victim. AoB and speed zero. Fire and don't lollygag with your scope up. Lower it, wait for the boom. You'll get it. At that point the others get skittish and it's a good chance to slink away. Go ahead, poke down below that thermal barrier and creep away at 3 knots.

Yeah, you just ran away from a fight. Feel like a heel, don't you? As soon as you get out of sight of the escorts still looking for you surface, hit the jets ahead emergency and do an end around the convoy to the other side. If all goes well, this is a money shot at the merchies while the escorts continue to look for you on the other side. Two shots into the biggest merchie, 1/4 of the way back from the bow and then 1/4 of the way forward from the stern. He's going down. Look for an opportunity to take out another merchie but also know that the escorts are now charging your way with murder on their minds.

Time to mix it up a little. Hopefully one is way ahead of the others. Set as shallow as possible, magnetic pistol and try to get off a stern shot from periscope depth going ahead emergency with him behind you. Be patient, set up the bearing, switch to the attack screen with periscope up and don't shoot until he's 400 yards back. Your speed will lessen his relative approach speed. Your torpedo's route to him, however, will be breathtakingly fast. Let her rip and immediately crash dive and turn right or left. If you miss he's dropping right on top of you. Don't be there. When you hit 100' go to silent running and continue your dive below the thermal barrier. Hope you heard a boom! As you've already said, in TMO there are no guarantees.

I'll wait for others to chime in. But you can see I don't do fancy multi-ship targeting. I keep it simple and don't get greedy. Self-control is one of the secrets to success. :arrgh!:

[Peto]

...and let's not make RFB sound like the nice-silver-haired-neighbor-lady-next-door when it comes to an escorts counter-attack :lol:.

I'm an RFB Player obviously :yep:.

RR's tactics are well thought out, fastidiously planned, cleverly executed and are a reflection of his not well disguised evil nature :smug:!

There's a new version of RFB currently in developement and I'll say a little regarding the new sonar model included in it as it dictates my evasion tactics. The new active model has a longer, much more historical range. It also has a blind area. Consider shining a flashlight under water, aiming it down only 10 degrees. The farther you are from the light, the deeper it shines. If you're close to it, the light shines over the top of you and you can't be seen.

Through vigorous testing I know that if I take my sub to 300 feet, an escort pinging me will lose active contact at ~300 yards (modelled to be historical). That means I can hear him from inside the boat, know when his pinging stops and when he kicks it into high gear for his run. I now have the time it takes for him to cross my position plus the time it takes DC's to drop 300' to evade. If I've set my escape angle up decently, it gives me a very good chance of getting out from under his deadly droppings.

If I go to 400 feet, he loses me at 400 yards and the dc's have even longer to get down to where I am. If I'm at P-Depth and he knows where I am--X marks the spot. There's little time for evasion and his dc's will be going off before I can get past 100 feet. Excellent prospects for a postumous Purple Heart.

I go Deep and try not to give him a chance to drop his dc's down the length of my boat. I'd rather have him cross me at right angles when he drops because I can use speed to evade his rack charges and a hard rudder manuever to swing my stern away from the K-Guns.

Another note about the upcoming sonar change in RFB. If I torpedo a ship in a convoy and there is an escort withing 4000 yards of me, I fully expect to have some audible pinging for a while. If weather is decent and the escort isn't a dweeb I expect I'll probably be contacted. If weather is excellent and it turns out there are 2 Veterans or better up there I cancel any appointments I'd made for the evening. And then...

I have fun :up:.

Peto

(If this was confusing or you'd like me to clarify a point just ask. Hopefully, I'll remember to check back :lol:!)

[Mush Martin]

Sink em all be more aggressive there are no surface ships in the game
that are a match for a well trained subdriver and crew
ready at battledepth.:arrgh!:

[Orion2012]

I go Deep and try not to give him a chance to drop his dc's down the length of my boat. I'd rather have him cross me at right angles when he drops because I can use speed to evade his rack charges and a hard rudder manuever to swing my stern away from the K-Guns.

K-Guns??

So is that kind of the same as the OLD GWX sonar and do the sonar parameters change as the war progresses, regardless, sounds fun!!

If I understand you correctly, the same applies to the new RFB sonar, similar to the large diagram in the link below??

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377

[Peto]

K-Guns??

K-Guns = Depth Charge throwers.

So is that kind of the same as the OLD GWX sonar and do the sonar parameters change as the war progresses, regardless, sounds fun!!

Japanese Sonar does change some as the war goes on. (I won't say how or how much for now ;)). It doesn't change nearly as much as Allied sonar systems did though because--well--historically the Japanese stuck with fairly similar gear throughout the war and it was effective when competent people were using it. The Allies made huge changes to all their electronics.

If I understand you correctly, the same applies to the new RFB sonar, similar to the large diagram in the link below??

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377

Yes--that's basically correct as far as the cone describes. Ranges are different though. (Double Secret Enigma Classified). I'd rather not give ranges and the real numbers yet because I look forward to eventually getting feedback from more players. Knowing the numbers can detract from getting good information on how a mod "feels" by creating pre-conceived ideas (if that makes sense :hmm:). All will be revealed in time though--it's not like I have magic cards up my sleeves :lol:.

Cheers!

Peto

[Orion2012]

Yes--that's basically correct as far as the cone describes. Ranges are different though. (Double Secret Enigma Classified). I'd rather not give ranges and the real numbers yet because I look forward to eventually getting feedback from more players. Knowing the numbers can detract from getting good information on how a mod "feels" by creating pre-conceived ideas (if that makes sense :hmm:). All will be revealed in time though--it's not like I have magic cards up my sleeves :lol:.

Cheers!

Peto

sounds great Peto, can't wait to see how she plays with a new sonar, and running under them to avoid it sounds like a fun and exciting way to pass the hours, can't wait :)

[Fishie]

Hmm. The other guys said it best, but here's my $.02...

Sounds like you're being hunted pretty good, so what you have to do is get quiet, get deep, and cut the angle as sharp as you can.

If you use the hydraphone, you can listen to his screws and his bearing. If you're deep (like 200 feet), you have extra time should he make a 'charge run.

Here's what I did last night-

After sinking the tanker and the minelayer in the harbor, the destroyer in the area popped his speed to flank and entered a search pattern- unfortunately I didn't time it well, and he was directly between me and my way out.

I knew I was gonna face depth charges anyway, so I ordered all ahead full, hard right rudder and a course change right for the destroyer, then ordered the boat down to 200 feet.

He's bearing 015, drifting to the left....then the pinging starts. At 150ft I hit a thermal layer, so I make a note of it and stop the dive.

Listening carefully on the hydraphone, I "watch" his bearing rate slow to nothing- I'm on his bow, directly. He's on the attack run, and I'm heading NE. I order all ahead flank and a hard right turn to go SE, giving him a noisy as hell target to shoot at- he takes the bait and charges in, drops his charges, and turns left.

I continue my right hand turn, dive under the layer, and rig for silent running, now heading due south. It's a little out of my way, but I think I have this guy fooled. He stops his engines and is looking around, pinging like crazy, then stopping, then charging on some phantom contact and dropping half a dozen charges.

Fainter and fainter he gets- I sneak back up above the layer 30 minutes later, to periscope depth.

A quick peek shows thick, thick fog, so I surface, all ahead standard and continue on course, taking special care to give the (now really pissed off) bad guy a wide berth.

I suppose I coulda gone back and taken a shot at him, but didnt' wanna risk it.

Best way to evade a destroyer- make the angle sharp, make it loud, then run silent, run deep. Jap skippers HATE that :) :ping:

[Peto]

Listening carefully on the hydraphone, I "watch" his bearing rate slow to nothing- I'm on his bow, directly. He's on the attack run, and I'm heading NE. I order all ahead flank and a hard right turn to go SE, giving him a noisy as hell target to shoot at- he takes the bait and charges in, drops his charges, and turns left.

I continue my right hand turn, dive under the layer, and rig for silent running, now heading due south. It's a little out of my way, but I think I have this guy fooled. He stops his engines and is looking around, pinging like crazy, then stopping, then charging on some phantom contact and dropping half a dozen charges.


Yep! That's a good tactic especially against a single escort. The nice thing about making noise like you did is when he makes his run you're already moving fast. That makes it much easier to evade the dc's. There are times when running works better than trying to be quiet--like when 3 escorts make a run on you 1 after the other in quick succesion.

There really isn't a set-in-stone correct way of evasion I use because there are so many variables involved. But I do have set ideas and methods for most any situation and the one you mention is included in that list. The go deep and run silent is the one I use the most though. It's really just a matter of picking the right method at the right time. And then I almost always get away :hmm:. Luck is still a factor :yep:!

:up:

[Ariodant]

Quick newbie question: how do you know you've hit a thermal layer? My guys yell "passing thermal layer" almost every time we hit 50m, is that info accurate?

[Peto]

Yes. It's where they report it.

[Ariodant]

I remember that SHII didn't give players indications for thermal layer even though the effects were there, because Jurgen Oesten told the dev team that U-boats had no way of knowing when they passed it. The same is not true for US subs?

[Peto]

US Subs were equipped with a bathothermograph which recorded water temperature. It wasn't available at the beginning of the war though (I'm pretty sure). It was added to a boat's equipment as it became available. THis is not reflected in the game though. We can't look at the graph to see how strong a layer is--the game just assumes that it's there. A hard-coded, unmoddable game aspect...

[Sailor Steve]

That's too bad, because clear back in SH1 the bathythermograph was nicely represented, and it came out mid-war.

[Peto]

yes. I remember watching that graph in SH--creeping deeper waiting to see the needle twitch and then slide over. And it could be at most any depth too--sometimes as far down as 500 feet. Sigh.

[Urge]

So... I'm cruising for targets last night and pick up a contact 13 miles out. I have all the time in the world to set up a Dick O'kane attack and my sub is sitting at all stop 650 yds from his track with silent running on just waiting for him to cross 200° so I can unlease a volley from the rear tubes. I am sitting at 70' as sonar tracks him and I move up to 50' and raise the scope with less than 10 seconds to go before firing. Just before he is going to cross my sights his floodlight comes on and he cranks it up. This was 1-2 seconds before I fired. I walk my 3 shots down the destroyers side but I miss astern with all 3 fish. I go deep(250') and turn as he bears in on me. I present a narrow aspect to him (that probably doesn't matter under this particular scenario) and turn 90° to him when I see from his sonar track that he is going to cross my track. There is no sound of DCs coming but then I get creamed with massive damage and its all over. It seems to me that I always hear the DCs being dropped, but not this time. This was a lone destroyer I feel this was an unrealistic outcome. He didn't ping me until after I fired. How did he know I was there? I was stopped, with silent running on and sitting at 70'. Dazed and confused at the bottom of the pacific, Urge

[Peto]

What mods are you using Urge? Weather conditions? I try to stay a bit outside of 1000 for DDs personally--just to have a little more safety net... And (this is just my personal preference) I never hover while submerged but always maintain at least 3/4 knot.

Also--you mention rising to P depth as he approaches. I've heard other complain about being picked while they come up to P-Depth, basically using the same tactic you used. It makes me wonder if there is something in the game code we don't know about (yet)--that being escorts are able to hear depth changes...:hmm:

(If you're using TMO, being detected in the manner you speak of is not uncommon).

Cheers!

Peto

[gAiNiAc]

First and foremost...........

TMO's destroyers are not all that uber-badass.........I avoid them with regularity, I evade them with regularity as well. It takes a wee bit of active persistence.

Second..AMBUSH. Strike fast, and strike hard. Do not get spotted.

Keep your periscope exposure to a minimum, 3 - 4 seconds....like in RL.

Fire, dive, and maneuver.

You have a flank bell for a very good reason. Use it to get as far away from your firing position as fast you can before the escorts can triangulate your position.

If you do this religiously you won't have to evade that hard.

Evasion: (You just had to go back for seconds!!!)

Things get interesting with 3+ destroyers.

Lets say you hung around and they localized you..........

You want to be deep, because deep = reaction time, it takes ash-cans a long time to get to 450+ feet.

Shallow is bad, frankly if you're brazenly stupid (like me ;) )enough to go after a well escorted convoy in shallow waters you're going to need to just duke it out, or do like I do fire from longer range at night on the surface, those 19 knots come in handy then!

Bad weather is your friend.

Back to evasion.

Be deep.

Always have some torpedoes at least 2.

You want to be moving at 3 knots..........I know that's not "silent running" but when they are pinging you silent running is useless.

You need to figure out who is setting up for a run. When you here them commit (high speed, coming overhead) you want to punch up to a full bell. This action should occur about 2 - 4 seconds prior to the drop.

You see once they've committed they already have a drop point and it's too late. The idea is not to be at the drop point when the ash-cans arrive. Sounds simple........

When the first one pops drop back to a slower speed and change your direction 20 - 30 degrees, this isn't a random decision either. You want to work yourself continuously away from proximity of what's being escorted. They HAVE to go back to the herd.

The part I can't teach you is how to figure out when they really have a fix or they're bluffing you. It has to do with the confidence and frequency of their attacks. If you know they're not onto you then keep a low profile.........

Low profile means keep your cross section small and don't flinch.

With the above tactics worst comes to worse is that you'll be actively avoiding their drops until they recall back to their charge.

Now, every once in a while you'll get an especially nasty and tenacious bunch. That's why you have some spare torpedoes. If they're really making hell for you you want to pop at least one of them. Usually that's the guy whose listening for me. You want to get him from inside 600 yds...preferably broadside. Squeeze a fish at his middle to get him up and running then pop him in the bow. If your lucky you'll nail him with both. This usually screws them up enough to give you an envelope of escape.

You'll learn via experience when you've lost them.

[Peto]

Very Nice summation gAiNiAc!

:rock:

[gAiNiAc]

Also--you mention rising to P depth as he approaches. I've heard other complain about being picked while they come up to P-Depth, basically using the same tactic you used. It makes me wonder if there is something in the game code we don't know about (yet)--that being escorts are able to hear depth changes...:hmm:

(If you're using TMO, being detected in the manner you speak of is not uncommon).

Cheers!

Peto

You need to be outside the destroyers detection cone in order to depth change to above the thermal layer without being heard. Personally I wait until he passes and I'm abeam of him before I think about any depth change.........

Now if this is the lead escort you want to keep your bow on him so the idea is to turn with him as he's passing, the plus being you're keeping a low sonar cross section and when he passes you halt your turn perpendicular to the target course!

[gAiNiAc]

Very Nice summation gAiNiAc!

:rock:

Thanks PETO!

I'm waiting for the next version of RFB to try your destroyers out!

[gAiNiAc]

If I'm at P-Depth and he knows where I am--X marks the spot. There's little time for evasion and his dc's will be going off before I can get past 100 feet. Excellent prospects for a postumous Purple Heart.

I go Deep and try not to give him a chance to drop his dc's down the length of my boat. I'd rather have him cross me at right angles when he drops because I can use speed to evade his rack charges and a hard rudder manuever to swing my stern away from the K-Guns.

I have fun :up:.

Peto



Yes, good stuff here, the stern kick out is an essential maneuver.......

[Urge]

I am running TMO and it's the only mod I'm running that would be making any difference. I came up to periscope depth still at all stop so I wasn't making any engine noise. I think I have a pretty good handle on when they really have me. I hear the difference in the pinging as they get ready to make a run(lots of experience here-most of them bad in TMO). Does TMO sometimes have them make attack runs without you hearing the sound of the DCs being launched? I am in a Salmon class boat and I have been going down to 250' (the red line) I guess I could/should be exceeding test depth by what - I think its like 25% or so? Urge

[Webster]

I am running TMO and it's the only mod I'm running that would be making any difference. I came up to periscope depth still at all stop so I wasn't making any engine noise. I think I have a pretty good handle on when they really have me. I hear the difference in the pinging as they get ready to make a run(lots of experience here-most of them bad in TMO). Does TMO sometimes have them make attack runs without you hearing the sound of the DCs being launched? I am in a Salmon class boat and I have been going down to 250' (the red line) I guess I could/should be exceeding test depth by what - I think its like 25% or so? Urge

the thought behind TMO in my opinion is its guided by the idea that the stock game is just way too easy and they decided to make the game very hard so it is very challenging. because of this the enemy sensors are a lot better than they should be if you were to limit it to realistic levels. this is enhanced to be even more of a challenge because of the fact that the game "cheats". it sends destroyers right to your exact position no matter what you do even if you dont move or make a sound. i swear the way they act in the game they would have to have have satelite gps tracking and magnetic field technology lol.

unfortunately all you can do is use your best evasive technics and remember that sometimes the game just cheats and its not that you did anything wrong.

[Peto]

I am running TMO and it's the only mod I'm running that would be making any difference. I came up to periscope depth still at all stop so I wasn't making any engine noise. I think I have a pretty good handle on when they really have me. I hear the difference in the pinging as they get ready to make a run(lots of experience here-most of them bad in TMO). Does TMO sometimes have them make attack runs without you hearing the sound of the DCs being launched? I am in a Salmon class boat and I have been going down to 250' (the red line) I guess I could/should be exceeding test depth by what - I think its like 25% or so? Urge

Yep--TMO has pretty beefy sensors :yep:. I agree with what others have said--it is not invincible--but it is very dangerous to get that close to escorts in TMO. Have you tried RFB? It's possible that it will fit your playing style better...

As far as indications of when DC's are dropped--I actually don't have any sound for that at all. I know when they're dropped by watching my crew. They'll shift their position (kind of a butt-clench thing :hmm: ) and I've found that it's the most reliable warning I have for dc's being dropped.

You can go deeper in your Salmon. Not sure how much deeper in TMO though as I haven't used it for a while. Knowing Ducimus though, I'd expect you could go to 350' at least.

The next version of RFB will include new sub characteristics including an excellent new damage model Observer has created. Very Good Stuff!

Anyway--just thought I'd tag this on to what Webster said. Hope it helps!

:up:

[Vacquero]

I'm using TMO as well, and sometimes I think that the damn destroyers can see my little icon on top of the water. Albeit I can genearlly give em the slip, but sometimes it seems they no exactly where I am, which way I'm facing, and how fast I'm going.

[Webster]

I'm using TMO as well, and sometimes I think that the damn destroyers can see my little icon on top of the water. Albeit I can genearlly give em the slip, but sometimes it seems they no exactly where I am, which way I'm facing, and how fast I'm going.

that is not your imagination, its the hard coded cheat factor the game has, i think the purpose of it is so it can be sure you have action. if you spent most of your time always undetected as it were, it would feel too easy.

[gAiNiAc]

that is not your imagination, its the hard coded cheat factor the game has.

How do you know??

Is that documented somewhere?

[Rockin Robbins]

i swear the way they act in the game they would have to have have satelite gps tracking and magnetic field technology lol.
That's not it at all. They have Superman and his x-ray vision at work! :eek:

TMO is not supposed to be realistic in enemy AI. It is supposed to be challenging. When you sink something in TMO you have achieved real victory. The satisfaction is magnified by the difficulty.

TMO kept me interested in SH4 after everything became routine. There IS no routine attack now. A perfect attack can be ruined by a high ranked escort with Superman on board and you have to suddenly scramble for your life. It can be frustrating. I think it's marvelous. Think of it this way: some bonehead dropped a wrench.:rotfl:

OH, search for Depth Charge Drop Splash Warning mod. It seems to work fine with TMO without nerfing any TMO evilness.