Georgian solders "borrowed" by Russian troops

[Bruno Lotse]

Some photos from the recent exchange of "strayed" solders.
There's lots of woods, rocks, mountains in Georgia...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3293/2778515619_0504af2d48.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3250/2778483669_6d5a8a48b3.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3088/2778172561_1cbf917dc5.jpg


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3081/2778172251_7b5a934c47.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3164/2778502826_15a5ff02e1.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/2778502756_5dd6b5d9f5.jpg
Enjoy ;)

[OneToughHerring]

The Russian and Georgian camo clothing is very similar. I might be confused as to which one is which especially in the heat of battle.

[Bruno Lotse]

To my knowledge Georgian troops are dressed in MARPAT.
Russians have their own stuff. But camo is still camo.

[SUBMAN1]

Its like you get a hard on for watching Russia put simple people in pain. There is nothing to enjoy here. You're a sick man.

-S

[Bruno Lotse]

It's a war, man.
They started it.
Now it's VAE VICTIS time.

And BTW. They are not 'simple people'. They are solders.
Good solders don't surrender.
I guess, they've got bad US instructors who failed explain them that.
Good MARPAT camo though.

[SUBMAN1]

It's a war, man.
They started it.
Now it's VAE VICTIS time.
And BTW. They are not 'simple people'. They are solders. Good solders don't surrender.Good soldiers they are. Know why? When they were ordered to not shoot during a ceasefire, they didn't. Russia doesn't have any of these good soldiers - they are unorganized idiots that don't have any honor nor any respect.

And this doesn't change the fact that you are a sick man.

-S

[Dowly]

It's a war, man.
They started it.
Now it's VAE VICTIS time.
And BTW. They are not 'simple people'. They are solders. Good solders don't surrender.

Has there been any evidence to back either side's claims on who started it? I think not. :roll:

It's one's word against the other's.

And as for the "Good soldiers don't surrender"-bit, have you been in a war? Have you experienced how it is to be in the frontlines, fearing and praying 24/7 that the next bullet doesnt bear your name?

[Bruno Lotse]

Good solder means - no matter what an enemy cannot take away a gun from a solder
who physically can defend himself.
Otherwise this solder is a coward.

I am happy that a US solder prefers his college grant over his military honor.

[Bruno Lotse]

[quote=Bruno Lotse]

And as for the "Good soldiers don't surrender"-bit, have you been in a war? Have you experienced how it is to be in the frontlines, fearing and praying 24/7 that the next bullet doesnt bear your name?

That's why when Finns in 1944 got in pinch they immediately changed sides
and started shooting Germans in the back.
Finns just wanted to be alive with whoever is the strongest one.
Right?
Honor? Which honor?

[Thomen]

It's a war, man.
They started it.
Now it's VAE VICTIS time.

And BTW. They are not 'simple people'. They are solders.
Good solders don't surrender.
I guess, they've got bad US instructors who failed explain them that.
Good MARPAT camo though.

You must live in a world of dreams. Seriously..

And BTW. They are not 'simple people'. They are solders.


Doesn't Russia has the draft still in place? If so, that would make any of the enlisted men 'simple people'.

[Dowly]

[quote=Bruno Lotse]

And as for the "Good soldiers don't surrender"-bit, have you been in a war? Have you experienced how it is to be in the frontlines, fearing and praying 24/7 that the next bullet doesnt bear your name?
That's why when Finns in 1944 got in pinch they immediately changed sides
and started shooting Germans in the back.
Finns just wanted to be alive with whoever is the strongest one.
Right?
Honor? Which honor?

I dont see how this has anything to do with what I asked from you. Have you been in a war, in the frontlines?

Personally, I think that nobody, who havent been in the frontlines, shouldnt make statement like you did. And that is my personal opinion.

[Thomen]

Good solder means - no matter what an enemy cannot take away a gun from a solder
who physically can defend himself.
Otherwise this solder is a coward.

I am happy that a US solder prefers his college grant over his military honor.

Did you actually got any kind of military experience, or are those thoughts of yours just pipe dreams of a disillusioned generation?

And nice to see, that you basically, with just a few sentences, all the brave souls that fought and were forced to surrender (because there was no way out) in the Great Patriotic War call cowardly and weak. Damn, your country (whichever it might be) must be really proud of you for your contribution.

[Bruno Lotse]

[quote]And BTW. They are not 'simple people'. They are solders.


Doesn't Russia has the draft still in place? If so, that would make any of the enlisted men 'simple people'.

As long as a person is being drafted and takes an oath
he ceased to be 'a simple person'.
He is a solder now, a GI - governmental issue.

Are you a governmental issue now? You're just a citizen.
Military units of simple people are called partizans, paramalitaries, vigilantes but not army units.

If a citizen betrays his country he faces criminal prosecution and a jail-term.
If the same done by a solder (a governmental issue) that solder faces a court-martial and then a firing-squad.

[August]

I'll bet this guy has never served his country.

[Thomen]

[quote]And BTW. They are not 'simple people'. They are solders.


Doesn't Russia has the draft still in place? If so, that would make any of the enlisted men 'simple people'.
As long as a person is being drafted and takes an oath
he ceased to be 'a simple person'.
He is a solder now, a GI - governmental issue.

Are you a governmental issue now? You're just a citizen.
Military units of simple people are called partizans, paramalitaries, vigilantes but not army units.

If a citizen betrays his country he faces criminal prosecution and a jail-term.
If the same done by a solder (a governmental issue) that solder faces a court-martial and then a firing-squad.

I did my duty (Light Infantry and Combat Engineers) and was discharged over 10 years ago.

What service did you do for your country?

[Bruno Lotse]

Good solder means - no matter what an enemy cannot take away a gun from a solder
who physically can defend himself.
Otherwise this solder is a coward.

I am happy that a US solder prefers his college grant over his military honor.
Did you actually got any kind of military experience, or are those thoughts of yours just pipe dreams of a disillusioned generation? Yes, I do.
Because in my country military service is an honorable duty of every male citizen.
We don't join army for the a college grant.
We are getting ready to defend our Motherland anytime anywhere.


And nice to see, that you basically, with just a few sentences, all the brave souls that fought and were forced to surrender (because there was no way out) in the Great Patriotic War call cowardly and weak. Damn, your country (whichever it might be) must be really proud of you for your contribution.
That's precisely becase most Soviet solders were solders - not cowards -
they would not surrender and would not allow Germans in Moscow.

Instead the Red Army visited Berlin.
The US Army had guts to land in Europe only in June 1944 !!! - just not to allow the Red Army to end up in Paris. That's it.

[SUBMAN1]

This fantasy land you live in is cracking me up! :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Please keep it coming!

-S

[August]

Which one, Russia or Canada ? :rotfl:
Definitely a clone of the other Serbian (?) guy.

I'm almost willing to bet its the same guy.

[Thomen]

Good solder means - no matter what an enemy cannot take away a gun from a solder
who physically can defend himself.
Otherwise this solder is a coward.

I am happy that a US solder prefers his college grant over his military honor.
Did you actually got any kind of military experience, or are those thoughts of yours just pipe dreams of a disillusioned generation? Yes, I do.
Because in my country military service is an honorable duty of every male citizen.
We don't join army for the a college grant.
We are getting ready to defend our Motherland anytime anywhere.


And nice to see, that you basically, with just a few sentences, all the brave souls that fought and were forced to surrender (because there was no way out) in the Great Patriotic War call cowardly and weak. Damn, your country (whichever it might be) must be really proud of you for your contribution.
That's precisely becase most Soviet solders were solders - not cowards -
they would not surrender and would not allow Germans in Moscow.

Instead the Red Army visited Berlin.
The US Army had guts to land in Europe only in June 1944 !!! - just not to allow the Red Army to end up in Paris. That's it.

Ah, you are Russian. You seem to forget the small but significant fact, that your Motherland depended on the aid of the countries you talk down to now, too even have a fighting chance against the Germans forces.

[Bruno Lotse]

Ah, you are Russian.

No, I am not. Try harder.

You seem to forget the small but significant fact, that your Motherland depended on the aid of the countries you talk down to now, too even have a fighting chance against the Germans forces.

Dependent?
Which US factory would produce T-34s tanks,
ZIS-3 guns,
PPSh-41 machine-guns,
IL-2 'Schturmovik' assault planes
or S-13 submarine which sank 'Gustloff' ?

[Dowly]

Good solder means - no matter what an enemy cannot take away a gun from a solder
who physically can defend himself.
Otherwise this solder is a coward.

I am happy that a US solder prefers his college grant over his military honor.
Did you actually got any kind of military experience, or are those thoughts of yours just pipe dreams of a disillusioned generation? Yes, I do.
Because in my country military service is an honorable duty of every male citizen.
We don't join army for the a college grant.
We are getting ready to defend our Motherland anytime anywhere.


And nice to see, that you basically, with just a few sentences, all the brave souls that fought and were forced to surrender (because there was no way out) in the Great Patriotic War call cowardly and weak. Damn, your country (whichever it might be) must be really proud of you for your contribution.
That's precisely becase most Soviet solders were solders - not cowards -
they would not surrender and would not allow Germans in Moscow.

Instead the Red Army visited Berlin.
The US Army had guts to land in Europe only in June 1944 !!! - just not to allow the Red Army to end up in Paris. That's it.

Most Soviet soldiers were peasants, called (read=forced) to defend their motherland. Most of the officers were treating Stalin as a god and blindly following Stalin's orders, not to forget the thousands of soldiers they killed even from the slightest act of cowardy. Most of the REAL soldiers Stalin killed in his purges. :roll:

BTW, who did give the Soviet airforce more up-to-date planes to cover the losses of thousands of planes on the 1st month of Operation Barbarossa? :p

My friend, you speak boldly. But read some history first will you?

[Bruno Lotse]

BTW, who did give the Soviet airforce more up-to-date planes to cover the losses of thousands of planes on the 1st month of Operation Barbarossa?

And which planes are these?
Airocobra?
Is it the same plane which US flyers would spit on and did not want to fly?
So they would send a crap to Russians and would call it 'a great help'!!!

[Thomen]

Ah, you are Russian.

No, I am not. Try harder.

You seem to forget the small but significant fact, that your Motherland depended on the aid of the countries you talk down to now, too even have a fighting chance against the Germans forces.

Dependent?
Which US factory would produce T-34s tanks,
ZIS-3 guns,
PPSh-41 machine-guns,
IL-2 'Schturmovik' assault planes
or S-13 submarine which sank 'Gustloff' ?

Yes, the Soviets depended on the Aid of the other allied countries. Or are you trying to tell us, that the Soviet bear was totally selfsucient in its war efforts?

[Happy Times]

He sure thinks like an average Russian, he definetly would blend in well.:lol:

[Bruno Lotse]

Tell me,
what the help it was in terms of machines, guns and will discuss battle quality of
your supplies.
Bell Airocobra - US AirForce - Oh no! take away this crap!
Sherman - German tankers would call it 'tommy cooker'. Thanks for helping Germans cook Ivan, America!
Stuart? - you can make a nice boom from stuart from a single 37mm shot. Thanks again.

[Dowly]

BTW, who did give the Soviet airforce more up-to-date planes to cover the losses of thousands of planes on the 1st month of Operation Barbarossa?

And which planes are these?
Airocobra?
Is it the same plane which US flyers would spit on and did not want to fly?
So they would send a crap to Russians and would call it 'a great help'!!!

Yes, I mean the Airacobra.

It wasnt great, but it was a definite improvement considering the I-16 & I-153 that simply lacked the power to go in vertical fights with the Messerschmitt 109.

And let's not forget the Hurricanes Soviets got.

IIRC (I have the book, but cant ******* remember, so might be wrong), the first plane to really match the Me109 was Yak9 or La5.

[Thomen]

Tell me,
what the help it was in terms of machines, guns and will discuss battle quality of
your supplies.
Bell Airocobra - US AirForce - Oh, no take away this crap!
Sherman - German tankers would call it 'tommy cooker'. Thanks for helping German cook Ivan, America!
Stuart? - you can make a nice boom from stuart from a single 37mm shot. Thanks again.

So, shipping's of petroleum, natural resources and technology is not considered help?

Oh yea.. for your reading enjoyment here is some American "propaganda":
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/persian/appendix-a.htm#t1

Damn.. according to your words, it was all a waste of time and money than.

[Jimbuna]

BTW, who did give the Soviet airforce more up-to-date planes to cover the losses of thousands of planes on the 1st month of Operation Barbarossa?

And which planes are these?
Airocobra?
Is it the same plane which US flyers would spit on and did not want to fly?
So they would send a crap to Russians and would call it 'a great help'!!!

Why do you come on to what is an American owned forum, a forum that is patronised in the main by people from the North American continent and goad them so in respect to a country that is clearly an ally of America? :hmm:

Everyone should be free to voice an opinion, especially in what so many people call 'the snake pit'....but in checking over your recent post history it would appear to me anyway that all you are attempting to do is bait people for a reaction. :nope:

[Bruno Lotse]

Brits Hurricanes Russians would call 'drova' ,i.e. 'flying woods'.
Hurricane was relegated to the areas of small combat activity, because it was no match to MsBf 109. Eventully it would be used only for trailing a young flyers.

Bell AirCobra - good catch if US did not wanna use it itself. Thanks. But no thanks.

But how about Soviet Yak family fighters, Mig fighters, Lavochkin/''
'La funf in der Luft'
Which allied factory would produce those Yaks, La's, and Migs?

[AVGWarhawk]

How about the p-40? :D

[Bruno Lotse]

Tell me,
what the help it was in terms of machines, guns and will discuss battle quality of
your supplies.
Bell Airocobra - US AirForce - Oh, no take away this crap!
Sherman - German tankers would call it 'tommy cooker'. Thanks for helping German cook Ivan, America!
Stuart? - you can make a nice boom from stuart from a single 37mm shot. Thanks again.
So, shipping's of petroleum, natural resources and technology is not considered help?

Oh yea.. for your reading enjoyment here is some American "propaganda":
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/persian/appendix-a.htm#t1

Damn.. according to your words, it was all a waste of time and money than.

Yes, it's a help, for which Russian would pay back by killing Germans
which would otherwise would kill US boys. Every killed German boy by a Russian would not kill American boy. Keep it in mind.

It was help.
But, please, don't call it this help something that without it the Soviets would not 'even have a fighting chance against the Germans forces'.

[AVGWarhawk]

Tell me,
what the help it was in terms of machines, guns and will discuss battle quality of
your supplies.
Bell Airocobra - US AirForce - Oh, no take away this crap!
Sherman - German tankers would call it 'tommy cooker'. Thanks for helping German cook Ivan, America!
Stuart? - you can make a nice boom from stuart from a single 37mm shot. Thanks again.
So, shipping's of petroleum, natural resources and technology is not considered help?

Oh yea.. for your reading enjoyment here is some American "propaganda":
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/persian/appendix-a.htm#t1

Damn.. according to your words, it was all a waste of time and money than.
Yes, it's a help, for which Russian would pay back by killing Germans
which would otherwise would kill US boys. Every killed German boy by a Russian would not kill American boy. Keep it in mind.

It was help.
But, please, don't call it this help something that without it the Soviets would not 'even have a fighting chance against the Germans forces'.

What the Soviets saw and did in the East during WW2 is quite amazing really. Some of the roughest battles I have read about. They fought tooth and nail to defend their country. I find the Russian are proud people with a lot of heritage.

[Dowly]

Brits Hurricanes Russians would call 'drova' ,i.e. 'flying woods'.
Hurricane was relegated to the areas of small combat activity, because it was no match to MsBf 109. Eventully it would be used only for trailing a young flyers.

Bell AirCobra - good catch if US did not wanna use it itself. Thanks. But no thanks.

But how about Soviet Yak family fighters, Mig fighters, Lavochkin/''
'La funf in der Luft'
Which allied factory would produce those Yaks, La's, and Migs?

The best scoring LW ace on western front had under 200 kills (cant remember the exact number, 140-ish?). That was (IIRC) Marseille, who flew against Spitfires & Hurricanes in N. Afrika. The best scoring LW ace fighting almost solely on the eastern front was Erich Hartmann, with 352 kills. See the difference?

The Soviet planes were badly outperformed against the 109s until 1943, the Hurricane is in many occasions labeled as "the plane that won the BoB". 109E variants, which also fought in the battle of britain, flew on the Eastern front aswell.

Also, AFAIK, Soviet Union got Spitfire too.

So, I REALLY dont think it was about the equipment. :p

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?

[Bruno Lotse]

How about the p-40? :D
How was its performance against MsBf 109G -
the workhorse of Luftwaffe in Ostfront since fall 1942?

Soviets had to face MsBf109G.
That's why they were using their own La-5FN and later La-7
and NOT P-40.

[Dowly]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?
:rotfl:

TBH, I have very little knowledge about P40 on the Eastern Front.

EDIT: Quick googling of few sources gave me this conclusion:

P40 wasnt as popular as the P39 within the Soviet pilots.

[AVGWarhawk]

The 40 would not have a good chance against the 109. However, was not the Cobra used in ground attack roll and not dog fight? I think it was effective in this.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?
:rotfl:

TBH, I have very little knowledge about P40 on the Eastern Front.

Time to go to the book store! The P40 was used quite a bit by the Soviets. :D

[AVGWarhawk]

How is all of this relevant anyway ?

Yeah I know I shouldn't bother reading if I don't like it :D
It has no relevance. That is what makes conversation like this so good sometimes:D

[Happy Times]

Brits Hurricanes Russians would call 'drova' ,i.e. 'flying woods'.
Hurricane was relegated to the areas of small combat activity, because it was no match to MsBf 109. Eventully it would be used only for trailing a young flyers.

Bell AirCobra - good catch if US did not wanna use it itself. Thanks. But no thanks.

But how about Soviet Yak family fighters, Mig fighters, Lavochkin/''
'La funf in der Luft'
Which allied factory would produce those Yaks, La's, and Migs?

Quit whining, SU was a great power when Barbarossa started, agressive murdering power allied to Third Reich. Cry me a river...
Funny how Finnish pilots were able to fly anything with a propeller and shoot down thousands of Soviets.

[Bruno Lotse]

Tell me,
what the help it was in terms of machines, guns and will discuss battle quality of
your supplies.
Bell Airocobra - US AirForce - Oh, no take away this crap!
Sherman - German tankers would call it 'tommy cooker'. Thanks for helping German cook Ivan, America!
Stuart? - you can make a nice boom from stuart from a single 37mm shot. Thanks again.
So, shipping's of petroleum, natural resources and technology is not considered help?

Oh yea.. for your reading enjoyment here is some American "propaganda":
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/persian/appendix-a.htm#t1

Damn.. according to your words, it was all a waste of time and money than.
Yes, it's a help, for which Russian would pay back by killing Germans
which would otherwise would kill US boys. Every killed German boy by a Russian would not kill American boy. Keep it in mind.

It was help.
But, please, don't call it this help something that without it the Soviets would not 'even have a fighting chance against the Germans forces'.
What the Soviets saw and did in the East during WW2 is quite amazing really. Some of the roughest battles I have read about. They fought tooth and nail to defend their country. I find the Russian are proud people with a lot of heritage.
Yes, you helped.
Yes, Soviets and Americans has a great history of cooperation and friendship.

That's why they should be friends and partners respecting each others needs and priorities.
They used to fight together and call each other allies
GOD FORBIDS!! they start fighting each other directly!!!

[August]

And let's not forget the Hurricanes Soviets got.

...and jeeps and trucks and fuel oil and medicine and more, several million tons worth. Not to mention the many American, British and Canadian lives we lost getting those supplies through the German gauntlet.

[Thomen]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?
:rotfl:

TBH, I have very little knowledge about P40 on the Eastern Front.

EDIT: Quick googling of few sources gave me this conclusion:

P40 wasnt as popular as the P39 within the Soviet pilots.
The Allies shipped the following planes during WW2:

A-20, Bomber (Light) / 1,269
DB-7, Bomber (Light) / 151
B-25, Bomber (Med.) / 124
P-39, Fighter / 2,030
P-40 Fighter / 1,091
P-47, Fighter / 188
AT-6, Trainer / 21

It seems that there are some types and numbers missing, since the overall number of delivered planes is given as 47,874.

[Dowly]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?
:rotfl:

TBH, I have very little knowledge about P40 on the Eastern Front.
Time to go to the book store! The P40 was used quite a bit by the Soviets. :D
Actually, I did read few sources after I posted my reply and most of them said the the P40 was used mostly as CAS and fighter sweeps on the defence of Lenigrad. ;)

Brits Hurricanes Russians would call 'drova' ,i.e. 'flying woods'.
Hurricane was relegated to the areas of small combat activity, because it was no match to MsBf 109. Eventully it would be used only for trailing a young flyers.

Bell AirCobra - good catch if US did not wanna use it itself. Thanks. But no thanks.

But how about Soviet Yak family fighters, Mig fighters, Lavochkin/''
'La funf in der Luft'
Which allied factory would produce those Yaks, La's, and Migs?
Quit whining, SU was a great power when Barbarossa started, agressive murdering power allied to Third Reich. Cry me a river...
Funny how Finnish pilots were able to fly anything with a propeller and shoot down thousands of Soviets.

Good point. :hmm:

[Dowly]

And let's not forget the Hurricanes Soviets got.
...and jeeps and trucks and fuel oil and medicine and more, several million tons worth. Not to mention the many American, British and Canadian lives we lost getting those supplies through the German gauntlet.

:yep:

[Dowly]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?
:rotfl:

TBH, I have very little knowledge about P40 on the Eastern Front.

EDIT: Quick googling of few sources gave me this conclusion:

P40 wasnt as popular as the P39 within the Soviet pilots.
The Allies shipped the following planes during WW2:

A-20, Bomber (Light) / 1,269
DB-7, Bomber (Light) / 151
B-25, Bomber (Med.) / 124
P-39, Fighter / 2,030
P-40 Fighter / 1,091
P-47, Fighter / 188
AT-6, Trainer / 21

It seems that there are some types and numbers missing, since the overall number of delivered planes is given as 47,874.

So, what's the point of the post then? :hmm:

[Thomen]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?
:rotfl:

TBH, I have very little knowledge about P40 on the Eastern Front.

EDIT: Quick googling of few sources gave me this conclusion:

P40 wasnt as popular as the P39 within the Soviet pilots.
The Allies shipped the following planes during WW2:

A-20, Bomber (Light) / 1,269
DB-7, Bomber (Light) / 151
B-25, Bomber (Med.) / 124
P-39, Fighter / 2,030
P-40 Fighter / 1,091
P-47, Fighter / 188
AT-6, Trainer / 21

It seems that there are some types and numbers missing, since the overall number of delivered planes is given as 47,874.
So, what's the point of the post then? :hmm:

Good question.. :hmm:
Maybe to show that there was more then 'just' the P-39 and P-40. Personally, never heard about the B-25's in Russia, tho.

[Happy Times]

Yes, you helped.
Yes, Soviets and Americans has a great history of cooperation and friendship.

That's why they should be friends and partners respecting each others needs and priorities.
They used to fight together and call each other allies
GOD FORBIDS!! they start fighting each other directly!!!


I point the logic, America is powerful so it still gets respect, it would be good if Russia and US share the cake.

Europe is the cake.

"How many divisions does the Vatican have?"
J.V.Stalin

[Bruno Lotse]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?
:rotfl:

TBH, I have very little knowledge about P40 on the Eastern Front.

EDIT: Quick googling of few sources gave me this conclusion:

P40 wasnt as popular as the P39 within the Soviet pilots.
The Allies shipped the following planes during WW2:

A-20, Bomber (Light) / 1,269
DB-7, Bomber (Light) / 151
B-25, Bomber (Med.) / 124
P-39, Fighter / 2,030
P-40 Fighter / 1,091
P-47, Fighter / 188
AT-6, Trainer / 21

It seems that there are some types and numbers missing, since the overall number of delivered planes is given as 47,874.

Now compare with Russian war production
of their own bombers
Pe-2 'Peshka' - workhorse of Soviet front bombers
Tu-2
IL-4
Pe-8

Only IL-2 'Shturmovik' assault planes which German would call 'Fleisher' , i.e BUTCHER
evidently for its effectiveness on Wehrmacht,
the Soviets would produce 41 ths!!!! planes.
It's only one type and 41 grands !!!

[Happy Times]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?
:rotfl:

TBH, I have very little knowledge about P40 on the Eastern Front.

EDIT: Quick googling of few sources gave me this conclusion:

P40 wasnt as popular as the P39 within the Soviet pilots.
The Allies shipped the following planes during WW2:

A-20, Bomber (Light) / 1,269
DB-7, Bomber (Light) / 151
B-25, Bomber (Med.) / 124
P-39, Fighter / 2,030
P-40 Fighter / 1,091
P-47, Fighter / 188
AT-6, Trainer / 21

It seems that there are some types and numbers missing, since the overall number of delivered planes is given as 47,874.
So, what's the point of the post then? :hmm:

Good question.. :hmm:
Maybe to show that there was more then 'just' the P-39 and P-40. Personally, never heard about the B-25's in Russia, tho.

They were part on the raids to bomb Helsinki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Helsinki_in_World_War_II

[Thomen]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?
:rotfl:

TBH, I have very little knowledge about P40 on the Eastern Front.

EDIT: Quick googling of few sources gave me this conclusion:

P40 wasnt as popular as the P39 within the Soviet pilots.
The Allies shipped the following planes during WW2:

A-20, Bomber (Light) / 1,269
DB-7, Bomber (Light) / 151
B-25, Bomber (Med.) / 124
P-39, Fighter / 2,030
P-40 Fighter / 1,091
P-47, Fighter / 188
AT-6, Trainer / 21

It seems that there are some types and numbers missing, since the overall number of delivered planes is given as 47,874.
Now compare with Russian war production
of their own bombers
Pe-2 'Peshka' - workhorse of Soviet front bombers
Tu-2
IL-4
Pe-8

Only IL-2 'Shturmovik' assault planes which German would call 'Fleisher' , i.e BUTCHER
evidently for its effectiveness on Wehrmacht,
the Soviets would produce 41 ths!!!! planes.
It's only one type and 41 grands !!!
I am not questioning the effectiveness of Russian planes. ;)
I think the IL-2 was one the greatest CAS and strike planes that was ever built.

EDIT: ever built as in 'back in the days'

[Thomen]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?
:rotfl:

TBH, I have very little knowledge about P40 on the Eastern Front.

EDIT: Quick googling of few sources gave me this conclusion:

P40 wasnt as popular as the P39 within the Soviet pilots.
The Allies shipped the following planes during WW2:

A-20, Bomber (Light) / 1,269
DB-7, Bomber (Light) / 151
B-25, Bomber (Med.) / 124
P-39, Fighter / 2,030
P-40 Fighter / 1,091
P-47, Fighter / 188
AT-6, Trainer / 21

It seems that there are some types and numbers missing, since the overall number of delivered planes is given as 47,874.
So, what's the point of the post then? :hmm:
Good question.. :hmm:
Maybe to show that there was more then 'just' the P-39 and P-40. Personally, never heard about the B-25's in Russia, tho.
They were part on the raids to bomb Helsinki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Helsinki_in_World_War_II

Ah.. thank you for the link.

[Dowly]

Yeah but what about the P-40???? :-?
:rotfl:

TBH, I have very little knowledge about P40 on the Eastern Front.

EDIT: Quick googling of few sources gave me this conclusion:

P40 wasnt as popular as the P39 within the Soviet pilots.
The Allies shipped the following planes during WW2:

A-20, Bomber (Light) / 1,269
DB-7, Bomber (Light) / 151
B-25, Bomber (Med.) / 124
P-39, Fighter / 2,030
P-40 Fighter / 1,091
P-47, Fighter / 188
AT-6, Trainer / 21

It seems that there are some types and numbers missing, since the overall number of delivered planes is given as 47,874.
Now compare with Russian war production
of their own bombers
Pe-2 'Peshka' - workhorse of Soviet front bombers
Tu-2
IL-4
Pe-8

Only IL-2 'Shturmovik' assault planes which German would call 'Fleisher' , i.e BUTCHER
evidently for its effectiveness on Wehrmacht,
the Soviets would produce 41 ths!!!! planes.
It's only one type and 41 grands !!!
I am not questioning the effectiveness of Russian planes. ;)
I think the IL-2 was one the greatest CAS and strike planes that was ever built.

EDIT: ever built as in 'back in the days'

And I agree, IL2 was a good, durable plane with very little weaknesses (The radiator in the bottom was the usual point of attack to kill the engine).

[August]

Good thing for the Soviets that the western allies tied something like 90% of the Luftwaffe down defending the Reich and off the eastern front.

[Bruno Lotse]

Amongst all US bombers delivered to Soviets,
the Soviets flyers really loved A-20 Havoc which was called according to Brits
designation Boston.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-20_Havoc
They would use it mainly as a torpedo bomber for which purpose they would
make it carry tree torpedos.

As far I know Soviets really liked Bostons which they were using in greater number
then Americans. And they would continue fly it up to early 50s.
That was truly a great plane.
Thank you.

[Dowly]

Good thing for the Soviets that the western allies tied something like 90% of the Luftwaffe down defending the Reich and off the eastern front.

When Barbarossa began, LW had, IIRC, 2 squadrons defending the channel front as it had been pretty quiet around there. But on the later parts, LW did indeed have to transfer more squadrons to west. Either to the Channel front or to the Mediterranean.

[Bruno Lotse]

Good thing for the Soviets that the western allies tied something like 90% of the Luftwaffe down defending the Reich and off the eastern front.
You know that joke -
one Russky tanker asks another tanker in Paris

'Oh! By the way, who won the air war this time?'

[Reise]

What about 777 unit ?
Fly in Russia

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/tripple-7-unit-us-fliers-fighting-russia-during-ww2-12912.html
http://777avg.com/unithistory/

Use US aircraft and pilots :yep:

list of lend lease to Russia ww2

http://www.geocities.com/mark_willey/lend.html

Tanks etc

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=5275


Lend-lease aircraft amounted to 18% of all aircraft in the Soviet air forces, 20% of all bombers, and 16-23% of all fighters (numbers vary depending on calculation methods), and 29% of all naval aircraft. In some AF commands and fronts the proportion of Lend-Lease aircraft was even higher: of the 9.888 fighters delivered to the air defense (PVO) fighter units in 1941-45 6.953 (or over 70%!) were British or American. In the AF of the Karelian front lend-lease aircraft amounted to about two-thirds of all combat aircraft in 1942-43, practically all torpedo bombers of the naval air forces were A-20G Bostons in 1944-45 etc


http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/geust/aircraft_deliveries.htm

:hmm:

15000 aircraft to Russia

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=1668

[Bruno Lotse]

15000 aircraft to Russia

of all types

agaist 41000 of a single type IL-2 plane.

But there were also Yak, La, Mig, Polikarpov fighters,
Petljakov, Tupolev, Sukhoy bombers
Petljakov, Mjasischev recon planes
and lots of other flying stuff.

[Bruno Lotse]

And again, don't ship numbers.
Analyze the battle qualities of shipments.
If Soviets would call 'Hurricanes' drova or another name - 'Flying Coffin'
(no chance against MsBf-109)
Then you know, thank, but no thanks.

[Reise]

15000 aircraft to Russia

of all types

agaist 41000 of a single type IL-2 plane.

But there were also Yak, La, Mig, Polikarpov fighters,
Petljakov, Tupolev, Sukhoy bombers
Petljakov recon planes
and lots of other flying stuff.



Lend-lease aircraft amounted to 18% of all aircraft in the Soviet air forces


18% you would not have had
Maybe enough to save you @ss

Not counting all trains\food\ammo etc
Read links I post

Open you eyes and take blinkers off

[Digital_Trucker]

Just curious, but if the Russian factories made so many airplanes, why was it that they needed any from anywhere else?

[Reise]

Just curious, but if the Russian factories made so many airplanes, why was it that they needed any from anywhere else?

They shot down too easy :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

All right gents....obviously Bruno has a different opinion and I'm sure with good reason. Let's not gang up on him and make everyone all defensive. Discuss it like scholars.


Like I stated, I have read books describing the battles in the east as some of the most brutal in the war. These are books that sit on the shelves because most are interested in the western front and go unoticed. Never really discussed.

[Bruno Lotse]

Just curious, but if the Russian factories made so many airplanes, why was it that they needed any from anywhere else?
They shot down too easy :rotfl: Americans were trading their technology for Russian fighting prowess.
You see Americans were afraid to fight strong Wehrmacht.
US Army was waiting till the Red Army would kill enough German men to make D-day happen.
In the meantime, Brits and the 8th AirForce were killing German women and kids.

Everyone contributed to destroy Hitler in its own way.

[Dowly]

All right gents....obviously Bruno has a different opinion and I'm sure with good reason. Let's not gang up on him and make everyone all defensive. Discuss it like scholars.


Like I stated, I have read books describing the battles in the east as some of the most brutal in the war. These are books that sit on the shelves because most are interested in the western front and go unoticed. Never really discussed.

We arent ganging up on him. :-? Opinion is one thing, but twisting historical facts is another.

[Bruno Lotse]

Guys,
check out documentary series 'The Unknown War'

It's American made using original WW2 Russian footage.
It will give you some perspective from 'a Russian point of view'
on what was going at that time.

[Dowly]

Just curious, but if the Russian factories made so many airplanes, why was it that they needed any from anywhere else?
They shot down too easy :rotfl: Americans were trading their technology for Russian fighting prowess.
You see Americans were afraid to fight strong Wehrmacht.
US Army were waiting till the Red Army would kill German men.
In the meantime the 8th AirForce were killing German women and kids.

Soviet soldiers had no choice. If you were a soldier of the Red Army, the only way you could go and MAYBE stay alive was forward.

And may I just point out that the Soviet troops werent any better. :roll:

[Bruno Lotse]

Don't lecture Soviets how to fight.
They won't accept advices from traitors and eventually their own patcy - Finland.
1944 Lapland war.

[Digital_Trucker]

Discuss it like scholars.

Like the following?

Americans were trading their technology for Russian fighting prowess.
You see Americans were afraid to fight strong Wehrmacht.
US Army were waiting till the Red Army would kill German men.
In the meantime the 8th AirForce were killing German women and kids.
I guess I need to go back and read some more history.

[Bruno Lotse]

Yeah, read history about German civil population losses (i.e. women, kids, elderly)
because of Allied bombings.

And to flavour up read about civil population losses in Tokyo bombings in spring 1945, Hiroshima, Nagasaki...

Read it.

[Dowly]

Don't lecture Soviets how to fight.
They won't accept advices from traitors and eventually their own patcy - Finland.
1944 Lapland war.

I wonder how many times you try to bait me with this one. :D I'm happy knowing the truth and how things went, unlike you.

[August]

I guess I need to go back and read some more history.

When you do ignore anything that talks about the North African or Italian campaigns. Also ignore the entire battle of the Atlantic. If you get this kid believing that the Soviets didn't actually win WW2 singlehandedly Putin might have him sent to a gulag for "reeducation".

[Dowly]

Yeah, read history about German civil population losses (i.e. women, kids, elderly)
because of Allied bombing.
Read it.

And you read who gave most of the info of Dresden being a full of military equipment & personnel. :roll:

[AVGWarhawk]

Discuss it like scholars.

Like the following?

Americans were trading their technology for Russian fighting prowess.
You see Americans were afraid to fight strong Wehrmacht.
US Army were waiting till the Red Army would kill German men.
In the meantime the 8th AirForce were killing German women and kids.
I guess I need to go back and read some more history.


1. Americans trading tech for fighting prowess.
We would need some proof on that statement. A two front war would weaken German quickly resource wise as we have witnessed.
2. Amerians afraid to fight strong Wehrmacht.
Again, need proof. I do not see this as a valid statement.
3. US Army waiting for the Red Army to take out Germans.
Not so, Soviets started with the cold shoulder starting with Dolittles using Soviet bases for his bombing mission over Germany. There was much political maneuvering at the time.
4. 8th Airforce killing women and children.
Perhaps but not intentional. Our precision bombing raids were not that precise. Not to mention the factories were inside the city limits. There are going to be casualties.

[Digital_Trucker]

Contrary to AVGs call for us not to gang up on Bruno, I think Bruno enjoys being ganged up on and all we are doing is fanning his flame of "righteousness":nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah, read history about German civil population losses (i.e. women, kids, elderly)
because of Allied bombings.

And to flavour up read about civil population losses in Tokyo bombings in spring 1945, Hiroshima, Nagasaki...

Read it.

The A bomb has been beaten to death on the forum already. Lets move on from that subject.

[AVGWarhawk]

Contrary to AVGs call for us not to gang up on Bruno, I think Bruno enjoys being ganged up on and all we are doing is fanning his flame of "righteousness":nope:

Good point DT:up: It is in fact true the war was won by a group of nations called Allies. All assisted in one form or another whether viewed as good or bad assistance. Never the less, assistance was rendered. So what, the P-39 was given to the Soviets and it was a crappy plane. Sure beats the hell out of throwing stones and sticks at a panzer division.

[Bruno Lotse]

I guess I need to go back and read some more history.
When you do ignore anything that talks about the North African or Italian campaigns. Also ignore the entire battle of the Atlantic. If you get this kid believing that the Soviets didn't actually win WW2 singlehandedly Putin might have him sent to a gulag for "reeducation". You go kid yourself.

Your granddaddies were afraid of Hitler.
And you 'tough para' is afraid of Putin.
Putin is f**ing up US patcy in Georgia and what you tough para do to help out your patcy?
Hitting PC keyboard?
How about go out and hit a couple of Russkies for a changes?
Scared?
Is that all in your toughness?

[Dowly]

Hitting PC keyboard?
Is that all in your toughness?

Might aswell ask the same from you. :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

I guess I need to go back and read some more history.
When you do ignore anything that talks about the North African or Italian campaigns. Also ignore the entire battle of the Atlantic. If you get this kid believing that the Soviets didn't actually win WW2 singlehandedly Putin might have him sent to a gulag for "reeducation". You go kid yourself.

Your granddaddies were afraid of Hitler.
And you tough para is afraid Putin.
Putin is f**ing up US patcy in Georgia and what you tough para do?
Hitting PC keyboard?
Is that all in your toughness?

Alright Burno, take a breather. Just a discussion.

[Bruno Lotse]

Sorry, Warhawk.
I was just shooting back at provocation.
I didn't mean you and any of your kin.
Honest.

[AVGWarhawk]

Sorry, Warhawk.
I was just shooting back at provocation.
I didn't mean you and any of your kin.
Honest.


Shooting back gets one in trouble. Take a breather. :up: Tomorrow will be a better day.

[baggygreen]

I gotta say, the similarities between Bruno and Elite are many, but i think they are different people - kinda a scary thought...

To go back to the original topic, heres a question for you all - why are the russians transporting prisoners blindfolded? Its not as though the beaten (you see all the black eyes on the non-blindfolded ones?) and tired looking georgians are going to be trying too hard to escape from an armoured column, and i really dont think the russians are transporting them through new territory where if they escape they could sabotage russias industrial areas, for example...

thoughts?

[Konovalov]

Which one, Russia or Canada ? :rotfl:
Definitely a clone of the other Serbian (?) guy.

I'm almost willing to bet its the same guy.
Not so sure myself. Just as ridiculous as EliteSilentHunter3 (or whatever he was called), yet a different style.

The Russian army look more like a mob than a professional outfit. Surely their quality couldn't be as bad as the days of Afghanistan and the Soviet invasion in the 1980's? :hmm:

[Bruno Lotse]

They blindfolded?
This is protection from sun glare. Sun X-ray, v-ray radiation is damaging, you know

Some bruises?
Well, I assume they were running in a thicket and lots of twigs around. You know what happens when running through the thicket.

Plus this is a war - not a reenactment or computer simulation.

Frankly speaking, those guys are very lucky being captured by Russians.
After what Georgian army did in Tshinval (South Ossetia) should they be caught by locals, so called 'white ribbons', i.e. Osseti men or Muslims from Chechen batallion Vostok - their plight would be very different. Those relatives of killed Osseti women and kids do not take prisoners.

It is Caucuses. 'The law of rocks', 'abrek law', i.e. blood vendetta executed by all male members of a clan. Evil is cleansed with fire. They follow this tradition.

[Thomen]

*sounds gong*
Round 2!


/facepalm

[Thomen]

To go back to the original topic, heres a question for you all - why are the russians transporting prisoners blindfolded? Its not as though the beaten (you see all the black eyes on the non-blindfolded ones?) and tired looking georgians are going to be trying too hard to escape from an armoured column, and i really dont think the russians are transporting them through new territory where if they escape they could sabotage russias industrial areas, for example...

thoughts?

Imho, it is more a psychological tool; to show who is the boss and keep the prisoners guessing about what comes next.

[Digital_Trucker]

I gotta say, the similarities between Bruno and Elite are many, but i think they are different people - kinda a scary thought...

To go back to the original topic, heres a question for you all - why are the russians transporting prisoners blindfolded? Its not as though the beaten (you see all the black eyes on the non-blindfolded ones?) and tired looking georgians are going to be trying too hard to escape from an armoured column, and i really dont think the russians are transporting them through new territory where if they escape they could sabotage russias industrial areas, for example...

thoughts?
Valid question, wish I had an answer, it makes no sense to me either.

They blindfolded?
This is protection from sun glare. Sun X-ray, v-ray radiation is damaging, you know

Some bruises?
Well, I assume they were running in a thicket and lots of twigs around. You know what happens when running through the thicket.
http://209.85.12.227/1396/109/emo/lalala.gif

[Thomen]

Some people apparently consider blindfolding as a tool of torture.. *shrug*

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Reyes/reyes-con5.html

In your article on torture you make the point that sometimes the worst torture can be being blindfolded as you're being struck, and not know where the next blow is coming from. So a lot of this, obviously the blow hurts, but the psychology of not being able to see where the blow is coming and defend yourself, intensifies the problem. So this is really often not just about the scars, the physical signs of what has been done, but also the emotional.


"It's both, actually, and I always tell our people not to make a clear distinction between physical torture and psychological torture. Physical torture of course has psychological sequelae and consequences. And psychological torture, even if you don't touch the person, may also have physical consequences. And in this case, the blindfold you mentioned, I don't know if it's the worst form of torture but it's part and parcel of torture, and again, here we have physical and psychological. Psychological of course: you don't know where the blow is coming from, you can't expect it, you can't prepare yourself, and also physical in the sense that you're in that much more tense of a situation. For example, if you have someone who is blindfolded and suspended and someone who is not blindfolded and suspended and you approach that person with an electric prod, if you can see the prod coming you can brace yourself, you can prepare yourself physically. But if you can't see it you can have these spasms which are much more intense. So you have the psychological component and also the physical component. That is why prisoners are blindfolded. We are always told that prisoners are blindfolded so they don't see the guard, not to see the torturer. Of course that's part of it, but it's part of the torture itself, because it has this potentializing effect on the torture."

[SUBMAN1]

Some people apparently consider blindfolding as a tool of torture.. *shrug*

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Reyes/reyes-con5.html
Would his name be Sky....? Hahahaha! Everything is torture to him.

-S

[OneToughHerring]

To my knowledge Georgian troops are dressed in MARPAT.
Russians have their own stuff. But camo is still camo.

Oh yea, interesting. So US is already giving their camo-colours etc. to them.

[Bruno Lotse]

To my knowledge Georgian troops are dressed in MARPAT.
Russians have their own stuff. But camo is still camo.
Oh yea, interesting. So US is already giving their camo-colours etc. to them.

And US military instructors.
Check out one of the pictures posted called 'Putin mounted Saakashvilli' look closely
at Saaks' bodyguards. Do they look like Georgians? Ah, I doubt you can tell. But try anyways.

[Bruno Lotse]

As for the pics of Russian army, indeed the word "mob" fits nicely but as far as results they seem to be doing good. If they make up the lack of "glamour" with efficiency it's all good for them, plus the "thugish" look may give the creeps to unexperienced opponents. Now if they fight in the same way as they dress it doesn't sound too good for them if opposing a well trained troop, but I wouldn't know.

Just watch
Russian troops in South Ossetia
http://content.foto.mail.ru/list/t34ssmirnoff/illustrations/i-1603.jpg

The 'white ribbons' - Osseti paramilitaries

http://content.foto.mail.ru/list/t34ssmirnoff/illustrations/i-1605.jpg
http://content.foto.mail.ru/list/t34ssmirnoff/illustrations/i-1606.jpg

http://content.foto.mail.ru/list/t34ssmirnoff/illustrations/i-1607.jpg

<<If they make up the lack of "glamour">>
I guess, it's a cultural differences.
Army as a social institute is not for 'glamorizing people',
army is for killing people (enemy) in the most efficient (most offen efficient=brutal) way.

<<if fight in the same way as they dress>>

You know, it's dermocracy there. The West wanted it, did it not?
Russiants reached such hights of democratic developments that now every solder has a God given right to don whatever cotton he finds or takes from an enemy (dead or alive).

[Thomen]

As for the pics of Russian army, indeed the word "mob" fits nicely but as far as results they seem to be doing good. If they make up the lack of "glamour" with efficiency it's all good for them, plus the "thugish" look may give the creeps to unexperienced opponents. Now if they fight in the same way as they dress it doesn't sound too good for them if opposing a well trained troop, but I wouldn't know.

Just watch
Russian troops in South Ossetia


The 'white ribbons' - Osseti paramilitaries




<<If they make up the lack of "glamour">>
I guess, it's a cultural differences.
Army as a social institute is not for 'glamorizing people',
army is for killing people (enemy) in the most efficient (most offen efficient=brutal) way.

<<if fight in the same way as they dress>>

You know, it's dermocracy there. The West wanted it, did it not?
Russiants reached such hights of democratic developments that now every solder has a God given right to don whatever cotton he finds or takes from an enemy (dead or alive).

Is that why they hide their faces like the chicken little terrorists?

[Bruno Lotse]

I would suggest, it makes them feel cool.
Like some kinda IRA guys :arrgh!:
Kids. Bloody kids though.

[Bruno Lotse]

These are another players in the conflict
Abhazi paramilitaries
Picture taken on August 12, 2008 shows Abkhaz soldiers celebrating in the remote Kodori Gorge of Georgia's breakaway Abkhazia region near the town of Chkhalta. Abkhaz separatist soldiers drove Georgian forces out of Chkhalta and took control of the town.
http://content.foto.mail.ru/list/t34ssmirnoff/illustrations/i-1623.jpg
Nice pen-knife, eh?

Another picture of Abkhazi fighters
http://content.foto.mail.ru/list/t34ssmirnoff/illustrations/i-1625.jpg

A picture taken on August 12, 2008 shows Abkhaz troops firing Kalashnikov machine guns into the air and placing the Abkhaz flag on a Georgian building in the remote Kodori Gorge of Georgia's breakaway Abkhazia region in the town of Chkhalta.

[Thomen]

I would suggest, it makes them look cool.
Like some kinda IRA guys :arrgh!:
Ah, I see. So, those Russian guys that towed off the Humvee's just wanted to look cool like terrorists too, i take it? :roll:

[Bruno Lotse]

Spoils of war...
Trophies.

[darius359au]

I would suggest, it makes them feel cool.
Like some kinda IRA guys :arrgh!:
Kids. Bloody kids though.

Actually they look like those "Heroic" militia's that the Serbs had in places like srebrenica , but I suppose one persons Rabble is another's Hero:nope:

[Bruno Lotse]

Kids like those (white ribbons) for two days were holding Tshinval agaist Georgian tanks
and 'peaceful' Grad systems. They were defending their kin and Motherland and they did not run.
These are heroic kids, though sometimes bloody. Well, it's very tough going there.

[Jimbuna]

Are these different breakaway factions going to have some infrastructure and means of supporting themselves independantly should the breakaway become a permanent feature....or are they going to be slaves/puppets to the Russians because they don't have the means to support themselves. :hmm:

[Happy Times]

Are these different breakaway factions going to have some infrastructure and means of supporting themselves independantly should the breakaway become a permanent feature....or are they going to be slaves/puppets to the Russians because they don't have the means to support themselves. :hmm:

What do you think?

[Jimbuna]

Are these different breakaway factions going to have some infrastructure and means of supporting themselves independantly should the breakaway become a permanent feature....or are they going to be slaves/puppets to the Russians because they don't have the means to support themselves. :hmm:

What do you think?

I'd put my money on the latter.

[Happy Times]

Are these different breakaway factions going to have some infrastructure and means of supporting themselves independantly should the breakaway become a permanent feature....or are they going to be slaves/puppets to the Russians because they don't have the means to support themselves. :hmm:

What do you think?

I'd put my money on the latter.

Think you would win.

[Jimbuna]

Are these different breakaway factions going to have some infrastructure and means of supporting themselves independantly should the breakaway become a permanent feature....or are they going to be slaves/puppets to the Russians because they don't have the means to support themselves. :hmm:

What do you think?

I'd put my money on the latter.

Think you would win.

In fact, give them a year or so under Russian tyranny/rule and they'll probably be looking for allies in their quest for independence themselves.

[Bruno Lotse]

Are these different breakaway factions going to have some infrastructure and means of supporting themselves independantly should the breakaway become a permanent feature....or are they going to be slaves/puppets to the Russians because they don't have the means to support themselves. :hmm: These in your eyes 'slaves' and 'puppets' for two days were fighting back US trained, US equipped, and US supported Georgian so called army. Those kids did not drop their arms and their equipment as Georgian so called solders would do as soon as Georgian so called solders got in a pinch. Those white-ribbons were killing Georgian so called solders everywhere they would find them for what Georgian so called solders were doing to Osseti civil population (carpet shelling of a city using 122mm multiple-rocket launchers 'Grad' - is it what US military teaching their slaves and puppets?).:hmm:

90% of residents of South Ossetia have Russian passports, so they are Russian citizens, so they are RUSSIANS of Osseti descent.
The Russian Army entered South Ossetia to protect lives of Russian citizens of Osseti descent and stop genocide committed by Georgian military. But again for two days!!! those brave Osseti men - white ribbons were fighting Georgian kid-killers and did not allow them to capture South Ossetia capital.

In South Ossetia there were two!!! referendums in which people voted to be a part of the Russian state as an autonomous Ossetian republic. In two refendums Osseties voted 'yes' to Russian 'tyranny' and 'no' to Georgian dermocracy.

[Happy Times]

Are these different breakaway factions going to have some infrastructure and means of supporting themselves independantly should the breakaway become a permanent feature....or are they going to be slaves/puppets to the Russians because they don't have the means to support themselves. :hmm:

What do you think?

I'd put my money on the latter.

Think you would win.

In fact, give them a year or so under Russian tyranny/rule and they'll probably be looking for allies in their quest for independence themselves.

My thoughts excatly if they are as independent mountain men as Bruno says.:rotfl:

[Dowly]

Are these different breakaway factions going to have some infrastructure and means of supporting themselves independantly should the breakaway become a permanent feature....or are they going to be slaves/puppets to the Russians because they don't have the means to support themselves. :hmm: These in your eyes 'slaves' and 'puppets' for two days were fighting back US trained, US equipped, and US supported Georgian so called army. Those kids did not drop their arms and their equipment as Georgian so called solders would do as soon as they've got in pinch. Those white-ribbons were killing Georgian so called solders everywhere they would find them for what Georgian so called solders were doing to Osseti civil population (carpet shelling of a city using 122mm multiple-rocket launchers 'Grad' - is it what US military is teaching their slaves and puppets?).:hmm:

90% of residents of South Ossetia have Russian passports, so they are Russian citizens, so they are RUSSIANS of Osseti descent.
The Russian Army entered South Ossetia to protect lives of Russian citizens against genocide committed by Georgian military. But again for two days!!! those brave Osseti men - white ribbons were fighting Georgian kid-killers and did not allow them to capture South Ossetia capital.

And this has something to do with the point raised by Jim in his post?

We already heard it, Russia & the poor bullied Ossetians and the other guys are the heroes, Georgians & US are the baddies. :roll:

[Happy Times]

Are these different breakaway factions going to have some infrastructure and means of supporting themselves independantly should the breakaway become a permanent feature....or are they going to be slaves/puppets to the Russians because they don't have the means to support themselves. :hmm: These in your eyes 'slaves' and 'puppets' for two days were fighting back US trained, US equipped, and US supported Georgian so called army. Those kids did not drop their arms and their equipment as Georgian so called solders would do as soon as they've got in pinch. Those white-ribbons were killing Georgian so called solders everywhere they would find them for what Georgian so called solders were doing to Osseti civil population (carpet shelling of a city using 122mm multiple-rocket launchers 'Grad' - is it what US military is teaching their slaves and puppets?).:hmm:

90% of residents of South Ossetia have Russian passports, so they are Russian citizens, so they are RUSSIANS of Osseti descent.
The Russian Army entered South Ossetia to protect lives of Russian citizens against genocide committed by Georgian military. But again for two days!!! those brave Osseti men - white ribbons were fighting Georgian kid-killers and did not allow them to capture South Ossetia capital.

You are hilarious, youre the type will bring Russia down in its knees begging for mercy.

[XabbaRus]

He sure thinks like an average Russian, he definetly would blend in well.:lol:

I find that insulting. Please explain the average Russian to me, objectively please. My wife is "average" Russian but she doesn't think like that.

This guy does live in a fantasy land but please keep your prejudices to yourself or at least don't blanket them over a whole nation.

[Bruno Lotse]

South Ossetia wasn't really part of Georgia anyway was it ? Besides Sakashvili is no better than Putin, there's no good vs bad here, only a fat ugly against a weak ugly.
Btw I'm not sure you can call SO a puppet of Russia is they end up being actually Russians. But you can sure call Sakashvili a puppet, with no much strings left though. From administrative point of view (if you look at political map) South Ossetia is a part of Georgia. But it's called Ossetia because it is populated by ethnically,culturally, lingustically different people - Ossetians. 90% of residents of South Ossetia have status of a Russian citizen. They are armed and are in no mood to dissappear from their territory.

Putin sent his troops to protect lives of Russian people in South Ossetia. It is his duty as the head of the Russian state.

[baggygreen]

Putin sent his troops to protect lives of Russian people in South Ossetia. It is his duty as the head of the Russian state.You gotta be careful with that tho mate.. might set a precedent. and having read somewhere that theres more ethnic chinese in eastern russia than russians, well you join the dots! The russians have played that card now, they can't very well cry foul if it is turned against them!!!

[Bruno Lotse]

Putin sent his troops to protect lives of Russian people in South Ossetia. It is his duty as the head of the Russian state.You gotta be careful with that tho mate.. might set a precedent. and having read somewhere that theres more ethnic chinese in eastern russia than russians, well you join the dots! The russians have played that card now, they can't very well cry foul if it is turned against them!!! OK,mate.
If Russian army would carpet shell cities populated by Chinese citizens, Chinese army would have a duty to protect their people. But I strongly doubt it. You see, Russian army does not employ US military instructors:rock:

[Jimbuna]

Putin sent his troops to protect lives of Russian people in South Ossetia. It is his duty as the head of the Russian state.You gotta be careful with that tho mate.. might set a precedent. and having read somewhere that theres more ethnic chinese in eastern russia than russians, well you join the dots! The russians have played that card now, they can't very well cry foul if it is turned against them!!! OK,mate.
If Russian army would carpet shell cities populated by Chinese citizens, Chinese army would have a duty to protect their people. But I strongly doubt it. You see, Russian army does not employ US military instructors:rock:

So what are you saying here :hmm:

The US military instructors are responsible for, to use your terminology 'carpet shelling' :nope:

[Bruno Lotse]

'Carpet bombing' is not a Russian invention.
Carpet shelling? Well, we are progressing.

[Happy Times]

Putin sent his troops to protect lives of Russian people in South Ossetia. It is his duty as the head of the Russian state.You gotta be careful with that tho mate.. might set a precedent. and having read somewhere that theres more ethnic chinese in eastern russia than russians, well you join the dots! The russians have played that card now, they can't very well cry foul if it is turned against them!!! OK,mate.
If Russian army would carpet shell cities populated by Chinese citizens, Chinese army would have a duty to protect their people. But I strongly doubt it. You see, Russian army does not employ US military instructors:rock:

You know, the Chinese probably dont need an excuse, maybe you should look at your cards and remember the ones you allready played.

[Bruno Lotse]

South Ossetia wasn't really part of Georgia anyway was it ? Besides Sakashvili is no better than Putin, there's no good vs bad here, only a fat ugly against a weak ugly.
Btw I'm not sure you can call SO a puppet of Russia is they end up being actually Russians. But you can sure call Sakashvili a puppet, with no much strings left though.
Ossetians ethnically are not Russians. They are what they are, i.e. Ossetian people (Iranian roots. Iran?!! Mamma mia! That's why!!!)


They are Russian politically, as 90% of them opted for Russian citizenship.
Check out this map to see ethnic blanket of this region

http://content.foto.mail.ru/list/t34ssmirnoff/illustrations/i-1448.jpg

[Steel_Tomb]

Russian troops wouldn't surrender because they had no choice. Die from German bullets or Soviet ones, you choice. Your suggesting that we all act like fanatics and die for our country no matter what. Ever heard the phrase "live to fight another day", you really need to get in touch with reality! Go serve your armed forces, go into a battle zone and then come back and say the same thing again... I doubt you would.

[Bruno Lotse]

Russians wouldn't surrender because they would kill German men and then come to Berlin to cheer up German women. Women are missing men, you know.:rock:

[Happy Times]

Russians wouldn't surrender because they would kill German men and then come to Berlin to cheer up German women. Women are missing men, you know.:rock:

Your like a mascot, our Bruno the Ruskie.:up:

[Digital_Trucker]

Russians wouldn't surrender because they would kill German men and then come to Berlin to cheer up German women. Women are missing men, you know.:rock:
Your like a mascot, our Bruno the Ruskie.:up:
A very entertaining mascot, at that:D

[Bruno Lotse]

Germany is a very good country now. Peaceful, cooperative.
You might argue it's because a sizable chunk of current German population has Russian blood in veins.

[August]

Germany is a very good country now. Peaceful, cooperative.
You might argue it's because a sizable chunk of current German population has Russian blood in veins.

And to think that Avon Lady was sent to the brig just for saying "I just wanna piss off some folks". :roll:

[Happy Times]

Germany is a very good country now. Peaceful, cooperative.
You might argue it's because a sizable chunk of current German population has Russian blood in veins.

And to think that Avon Lady was sent to the brig just for saying "I just wanna piss off some folks". :roll:

Someone should go ask her back from her other forums, she might be in brig there also.:lol:

[Thomen]

You might argue it's because a sizable chunk of current German population has Russian blood in veins.
/sarcasm on
Now it makes sense they lost both wars.... thanks for the enlightenment.
/sarcasm off

One could say that there is a lot of Russian blood in the US, too.. Mhm.. doesn't that rather nullifies your argument and makes a case that 'mixed blood' is stronger then the 'pure' one?

EDIT: Just to be on the save side.. I am of Russian heritage, but I do not care for it one bit nor does it makes me feel superior.

[Bruno Lotse]

Is it really Russian or Semitic?
Though Russian Jews are still Russians one might argue.

Jews are great warriors. Read the Bible!

[Happy Times]

Is really Russian or Semitic?
Though Russian Jews are still Russians one might argue.

Jews are great warriors. Read the Bible!

http://www.darkhorizons.com/2006/borat/borat2.jpg

[Thomen]

Is it really Russian or Semitic?
Though Russian Jews are still Russians one might argue.

Jews are great warriors. Read the Bible!

What has this to do with Jews? Nada.. zip, zilch, nix.

[Bruno Lotse]

Folks living on Brighton Beach and whom you would call American Russians
or Russian Mafia
ethnically and culturally belong to Jewish people.
They are from former USSR absolutely.
That's it.

[August]

Is it really Russian or Semitic?
Though Russian Jews are still Russians one might argue.

Jews are great warriors. Read the Bible!

And the countdown to bannzors begins...

My bet. By this time next week.

[Thomen]

Folks living on Brighton Beach and whom you would call American Russians
ethnically and culturally belong to Jewish people.
That's it.

Where did I say Brighton Beach? Or made any reference to a specific cultural mixture? You were the one who brought it up.

[Bruno Lotse]

Sure,
and you failed to notice picture posted by some Finnish guy.
Right?

[Thomen]

Sure,
and you failed to notice picture posted by some Finnish guy.
Right?

And, what has one to do with the other?

[Bruno Lotse]

Sure,
and you failed to notice picture posted by some Finnish guy.
Right?
And, what has one to do with the other?
Think harder.

Hey, almost verses...

[Jimbuna]

I must say Bruno....your a real ace :up:

I've made a living trying to understand your ilk ;)

[Happy Times]

I must say Bruno....your a real ace :up:



http://www.nypress.com/images/borat_cannes_2.jpg

[nikimcbee]

Germany is a very good country now. Peaceful, cooperative.
You might argue it's because a sizable chunk of current German population has Russian blood in veins.

No, I'd say it was because we (the allies) took Germany to the vet and had him neutered. (see also Japan):rotfl:

[nikimcbee]

I must say Bruno....your a real ace :up:



http://www.nypress.com/images/borat_cannes_2.jpg

Hey, leave Steed outta this. He has done no harm.:rotfl:

[Bruno Lotse]

I must say Bruno....your a real ace :up:

I've made a living trying to understand your ilk ;)

Listen, how much do they pay?
I can give lectures at a discount.

[nikimcbee]

Is it really Russian or Semitic?
Though Russian Jews are still Russians one might argue.

Jews are great warriors. Read the Bible!

And the countdown to bannzors begins...

My bet. By this time next week.

Do you hear the music????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om6xu-l8334&feature=related

I hear moderators....

Everybody out of the thread.:gulp:


Yeah, I can play nicely!
How 'bout you come down here and moderate some of this...............stuff.
You're gunna need a bigger brig.


August, extra butter or kettle korn?

[Bruno Lotse]

Germany is a very good country now. Peaceful, cooperative.
You might argue it's because a sizable chunk of current German population has Russian blood in veins.
No, I'd say it was because we (the allies) took Germany to the vet and had him neutered. (see also Japan):rotfl: You pets!!!
Of cause you know better how it's chick-chick:rotfl:

The only problem.
We've missed Finns. They switched sex oh, sides!!! quite promptly.

[nikimcbee]

Okay, I'll go into rentamoderator mode.

Everybody needs to take a time out: Go out side and play, take a smoking break.

Watch this, this should settle things down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDT5aH_EXlA&feature=related

[Digital_Trucker]

I think Bruno may have been a bend-over, oops, stand-up comedian at some point in time. He's just hilarious, isn't he?:D

Edit : Watched the first 17 seconds of the video, it was all I could stand. What do I do now?

[Jimbuna]

I must say Bruno....your a real ace :up:

I've made a living trying to understand your ilk ;)

Listen, how much do they pay?
I can give lectures at a discount.

They generally pay in terms of time spent out of the spotlight.

They all lectured at some point or other....generally with the same theme:

"It wasn't me" or "I'm innocent" :lol:

[Jimbuna]

Okay, I'll go into rentamoderator mode.

Everybody needs to take a time out: Go out side and play, take a smoking break.

Watch this, this should settle things down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDT5aH_EXlA&feature=related

http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/img233/1673/adminwatch2af0.gif

[Bruno Lotse]

Enjoy