Air patrols,and still they come....

[Kloef]

Hey:)

I,ve been playing SH4 for a week or so,coming from SH3..
The thing that strikes me is the amount of air patrols flown by the Japanese,when i try to get to Japan from Pearl i constantly get patrols exactly over my position,about 80% of them,so i have to dive,wait and get up again only to be jumped by another air patrol...

This was on my sixth patrol and the date is sep 1942,it took me forever to even get there,and when i did the intensity of patrols got even higher.....so at that point your constantly diving,waiting,surfacing,moving for maybe 10 minutes and doing it all over again,making this a frustrating experience..and using time acceleration alot,which i hate..

So is this a bug,or should i try different ingress routes or jump from Pearl to Wake,and then to Japan?

Or should i transfer to a flak boat?:rotfl:

[Quillan]

There's an IJN air base on Wake Island, so passing near that will account for part of it. A second part of it comes if you are playing the stock game without mods; the stock campaign layers have ridiculous air traffic, unrealistic both in the quantity and the range. A third part may come from the date: in the stock game, if the battle of Midway begins while you are out on patrol, the fleets don't show up in game until the beginning of your next. I ran across the IJN carriers near Midway in August of 1942 once. You thought air cover was bad before, wait till you're near an alerted carrier.

[STEED]

If your playing stock like me, dl ParaB's tweaked air strikes this little mod will cut there numbers down.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Webster has also made a Mod to lessen the planes, plus the Major Mods: Trigger Maru, RFB and RSRDC and I think OM ( have not tried it....yet ), have also modded air frequency.


RDP

[lothos]

call me stupid, but where can one find the mods and how to use them? the air patrols are ridiculous.

[Kloef]

Ok thanks for the tips,ive got the tool installed and i will give it a go:D

[tomoose]

Look in the Fleetboat Mods Workshop forum, all mods are in there.

[Rockin Robbins]

Keep in mind that AA guns are decorations only. If you shoot at airplanes, in fact if you are seen by just a single plane, you will get your flood of aircraft regardless of the mods you run. And in the mods mentioned above, although you will see fewer randomly searching airplanes, the ones you do see will be considerably more dangerous.

The submarine is not a Rambo craft. It survives by being invisible. The enemy's first indication of your presence should be explosions made by torpedo impacts.

[Kloef]

The submarine is not a Rambo craft. It survives by being invisible. The enemy's first indication of your presence should be explosions made by torpedo impacts

Usually its the dud torpedo that is the first indication:rotfl:

The small mod makes it seem more realistic....

Sometimes its good to be aggresive,especially against unprotected convoys..it depends on the dynamic situation...i myself love to raid ports,it mixes the aggresiveness with stealth and a good attack plan,and the sight of all ships destroyed and burning as you leave the area is just awesome...

But i agree,during transits you should allways try to avoid everything..it can make the difference..

[SteamWake]

Its simple really, at least early on in the war, only travel submerged in daylight hours.

If you do by chance spot an aircraft while surfaced then dive and stay down for at least a couple of hours.

As mentioned before, if you get spotted by one more are sure to follow. Also I believe or at least it seems that a ship under attack will 'call in' air support.

[Kloef]

Traveling submerged at daytime seems the only option sometimes..and was one of the most important reasons why the Japanese conducted Air patrols.

I guess that also goes for the Atlantic situation,even more so later in the war.

I was watching a documentary on U.S WOII submarine warfare last week and someone mentioned that it was kind of ironic,the Americans gained the upper hand during the course of the war,hence less air patrols/destroyer escorts while the German U-boats could hardly surface anymore,even at night cause the Asdic was getting more advanced as the war progressed,eventually being able to spot a periscope at a range of more then 5000 yards and the extremely potent B-24 Liberator sea patrol version which was capable of closing the Atlantic gap.

So being a German U-boat captain in SH4 seems a little more challenging,but i still have to experience that,since i installed the expansion only today;)

[Quillan]

If you have air search radar on the boat, and are patched up, there's no real need to run submerged during the day. Run on the surface until you get a radar contact. If it's an aircraft, time compression will drop to 1 instead of 8 for surface radar contacts. If the aircraft is going to come within about 5 nm of you, drop down to 150-200 feet depth and stay down long enough for the plane to pass by completely, which should only be 15 minutes at most, then surface again.

If you're running certain mods, it's possible to extend the air search radar antenna from periscope depth and check the region without surfacing, but some of those mods also enable aircraft to spot you while submerged. Evil, evil aircraft!:ping:

[lothos]

one thing thats frustrating me is that while I have air search radar installed and it works, I have no way to go to that station and view it myself. With full realism on it would be helpful to be able to use the station myself since all the crew does is one call out at a bearing. At least with map contact updates you can watch the heading of radar contacts and decide for sure whether to submerge.

[Quillan]

There is no station for the SD radar, unfortunately. The two stations in the control room are both for the SJ radar. If you have map contacts on, it'll plot a position for you. If not, just submerge when you get a contact.

[SteamWake]

and decide for sure whether to submerge.

No decision for me to make... "Radar Contact !".... 'Dive the boat !' :rock: or if your in hot pursuit or feeling brave 'Man the AA gun(s) !" :arrgh!:

I think you can go to the radar station I forgot which button takes you there.

[Rockin Robbins]

one thing thats frustrating me is that while I have air search radar installed and it works, I have no way to go to that station and view it myself. With full realism on it would be helpful to be able to use the station myself since all the crew does is one call out at a bearing. At least with map contact updates you can watch the heading of radar contacts and decide for sure whether to submerge.

That is just one of a hatful of reasons why map contacts off is not the most realistic way to play the game. It is more realistic by far to use TMO and play with map contacts on. They made some deal killer decisions in deciding how the game would behave with map updates off and that is numero uno. Another is the lousy plotting tools in the game.

Sub sims have a long way to go and you'll see a huge improvement in five years when hardware can handle the complexity without choking.

[Webster]

Hey:)

I,ve been playing SH4 for a week or so,coming from SH3..
The thing that strikes me is the amount of air patrols flown by the Japanese,when i try to get to Japan from Pearl i constantly get patrols exactly over my position,about 80% of them,so i have to dive,wait and get up again only to be jumped by another air patrol...

This was on my sixth patrol and the date is sep 1942,it took me forever to even get there,and when i did the intensity of patrols got even higher.....so at that point your constantly diving,waiting,surfacing,moving for maybe 10 minutes and doing it all over again,making this a frustrating experience..and using time acceleration alot,which i hate..

So is this a bug,or should i try different ingress routes or jump from Pearl to Wake,and then to Japan?

Or should i transfer to a flak boat?:rotfl:

the game has two main airplane highways where it constantly generates aircraft along this "line" so drawing a straight line from pearl or midway to tokyo, stay north or south about an inch when looking at the map in full zoom out and you should be outside of this high traffic area.

there is another of these aircraft highways if you draw a line from tokyo south to formosa in the south china sea on the west side of the small islands so stay east of the small islands or to the center line through the south china sea to avoid the traffic.

those are the two main areas to avoid being surfaced and it seams to me that the mods that change air traffic dont change the traffic on these routes (hard coded traffic i think) but they do effect air traffic in all other areas in the game

[Kloef]

I have the advanced SD radar now and it shows Aircraft even earlier on the radar screen,given that my crew produces a good bearing you can judge to submerge or not,depending on daytime,i usually routinely submerge but not deeper than 65 meters,roughly about 190 feet,that way the silhouete is not visible from the sky and im diving anyway,so why not go deep?

Then i stay submerged for about half an hour and i get back to the surface,sometimes you have to be carefull not to surface and face the very same air patrol that is now on its way back to Japan...

With this mod the aircraft seem more alert and dangerous,and thats the way they should be i guess,before the mod they would just strafe me but no firing or bombing,only the bombers and some aircraft did that,now they all do..so its more realistic this way.

[Rockin Robbins]

Good deal! If you want to maximize your range, with 190 feet as your target depth you can just hit surface as soon as you get there and by the time you're back up the plane will be gone. I come to periscope depth first and stick up the radar antenna (Trigger Maru!) then surface. You could do a periscope search or come up to radar depth (about 40') so you can duck back down if another plane is detected.

There is a reason for being down for such a short time and it's related to safety. In order to defend yourself, you have to have a valid mental picture of the combat situation. You see what is happening and can make good predictions based on your awareness.

For instance a plane is approaching on radar. It is very easy to predict when he will enter a 5 mile radius from your boat and time your submergence so that you will be at 30 meters or below when he crosses the line. It is similarly simple to predict when he will cross the same radius going away, and THAT is when you should pop back up to resume tracking.

You see, at this point your situation picture is still valid. You know there is no other plane that could enter your 5 mile danger zone in that length of time. You know your present enemy is leaving the zone now. It's time to surface and resume gathering information. In combat awareness is life. Ignorance is death.

Your alternative is to remain submerged for half an hour or an hour. Now all your information is stale and useless. Any number of undetectable planes could be in your danger zone 5 mile radius when you surface. Statistically, you will eventually (Murphy's law says pretty soon! :o) be sunk by one that surprises you. There is no reason for that to happen if you're thinking carefully about your tactics. Sometimes the steps we take to be "safe" are the most dangerous parts of our habits. Get back on the surface quickly and save your life!

Just something more to worry about!:rotfl:

[Kloef]

I agree,simply diving and rising back up over a given length of time will allways be a risk,the same risk that you tried to avoid in the first place!

But when you are getting back up to the surface does the SD radar work during the time you go from periscope depth to being surfaced?

That would be a nice tactic,as it seems pretty easy for the sub(i use the Gato)to manouvre between about 50 feet and the surface,as long as the dive planes can be used,and the SD picks up contact pretty easy..

Anyway i will try to implement the periscope routine,as it eliminates the gamble i'm taking right now every time i surface after an air patrol...the situation seems so much different than SH3/gwx 2.1...

like you say Murphy's law will end it one day,dont want that to happen.;)

[lothos]

wait, you can raise the radar mast?

[Quillan]

In certain mods you can. It's definitely in TMO, and it was talked about being added to RFB but I'm not certain. As far as any others go, I can't say.

And yes, it starts working as soon as you get to less than 40 feet depth but you'll probably break the surface before you get a return if there is anything around.

[Rockin Robbins]

Actually, if you are able to surface in 5 minutes, when your detected plane is leaving your danger radius and if you sighted no other planes before you dove, there is no need to pause to look with periscope or radar. Just pop back up on the surface confidently, knowing that your situational awareness is complete. No plane can possibly be in your danger zone. Get back to 9 knots as quickly as you can and search those square miles!

SH4 (and real life in WWII submarines) is nothing but a statistical game where square miles * some_unknown_constant = number of contacts developed. That means radar is on 100% of the time, too!

Yes, this is VERY different than the U-Boat situation and I can readily understand how difficult it is to switch in either direction because your operational procedures have to be completely different.

[Brenjen]

My newly installed TM has ungodly amounts of Japanese aircraft criss crossing the Pacific, no way on earth they had that many planes to spare....it's a big ocean. On a side note, my radar mast either takes forever to extend or it doesn't light up on the control panel when it's up like the periscopes. I got excited when I saw that function & then got the "aw shucks" momment later when I used it.

[Seminole]

so at that point your constantly diving,waiting,surfacing,moving for maybe 10 minutes and doing it all over again,making this a frustrating experience


I cope with the problem when I see a plane on an intercept course (and btw-not all that many actually spot your boat if you stay surfaced and steam at below ahead standard speed ) by:

1.going to periscope depth
2.cut speed to zero to save batteries..which gives you more distance and fuel savings when you surface..'cause no recharging will be needed.
3.accelerate time until darkness falls
4. surface and resume course...without hassel

This way...You're gonna get where you are headed in about the same amount of time. Plus you avoid a whole lot of unnecessary nastiness in the meantime...like subhunters and chasers being summoned...not to mention a couple of kilotons of frustration. :yep: ...from diving surfacing,diving surfacing,diving surfacing ....ad nauseum...

[Brenjen]

An addendum to my post....the first air contact I got was past 2300 hours & I figured I was safe....it's well past dark thirty afterall right? Wrong; he attacked & this was just a few nm's out of Midway harbor with little moon at almost midnight!

[Webster]

An addendum to my post....the first air contact I got was past 2300 hours & I figured I was safe....it's well past dark thirty afterall right? Wrong; he attacked & this was just a few nm's out of Midway harbor with little moon at almost midnight!

this is why there are more than one version of air mod, the game is rediculous as far as how air strikes are represented in totally unrealistic fashion. planes were not constantly airborne over the entire pacific 24 hrs a day lol. they didnt have the planes or resources to do whats represented in the game.

try a couple different air mods to see what "feels" right to your game style.

many mods will cut down the numbers of planes you see to better represent realistic levels and they also usually make the planes more accurate so they dont bomb that school of fish instead of you and usually you will get more damage from being attacked.

[Kloef]

The aircraft mod i'm using is ok,sometimes a few aircraft,other days some more..

Indeed leaving Pearl Harbour and encountering Zero's is not really realistic,i mean they had ridiculous range but they couldnt reach Pearl without carrier support,as proven...



The advanced radar gives you more time to think about what to do,but it depends on what course they are flying and if you can stay out of visual range in order not to be forced to dive.

Also i noticed that some aircraft are out of range,but the game asks if you want to engage or not anyway,maybe something to work on in a next mod?

So i'm fine with the situation,and its obvious,the closer you get to shipping routes the more chance of aircraft patrols,so stay out of the way during the day and attack at night,but also wage your chances,a lone unescorted merchant during the day is my favourite target,just make sure to attack submerged,not so for the merchants but for aircraft that can appear during a surfaced attack,making you the hunted..

[Captain Vlad]

I personally just stay submerged during the day when in areas I'm likely to encounter an enemy air patrol. I'll surface to chase down a contact, but generally, I'll stick at a cozy 200 feet or so during the day, drifiting and listening, unless I'm actually trying to get somewhere and in that case, I'm cruising at very low speed.

Air patrols don't generally bother me, and sharp ears bring many kills.

[Quillan]

Active radar > sharp ears. Once you get the SJ radar, you're better off spending every possible moment on the surface. As a general rule, my sonarman on the boat can pick up contacts somewhere around 8 nm away, while I can hear the screw sounds somewhere between 10-20 nm. The radar can get a return farther out than you can hear them on the hydrophones depending on the variables of weather and target size. I do far better letting the radar pick up my targets.

[Captain Vlad]

Active radar > sharp ears.

The sharp ears won't get you detected. I don't know that the Japanese AI detects my radar signals...but I play as if it's a possiblity.

As a general rule, my sonarman on the boat can pick up contacts somewhere around 8 nm away, while I can hear the screw sounds somewhere between 10-20 nm.

Yeah, doing the sweeps yourself is definitely a key to my usual strategy. The sonar guys can miss some truly obvious contacts.

The radar can get a return farther out than you can hear them on the hydrophones depending on the variables of weather and target size. I do far better letting the radar pick up my targets.

Opposite with me. Which is another point: US captains were allowed a lot of latitude when it came to operating style. Some were aggressive patrollers. Some would happily lie in wait when they knew they were in a good area. Both methods scored notable success. Learn what suits your style and go with it.