Hunt the Kaiser's Cruisers

[TarJak]

Interesting looking 2 part WWI doco on Australian TV tonight and next thursday night at 20:30 AEST:

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/netw/200808/programs/ZY8682A001D14082008T203000.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/netw/200808/programs/ZY8682A002D21082008T203000.htm

For anyone who knows a bit about the story, it was quite a feat of endurance that the crews went through and the quality of the doco looks pretty good from the promo's I've seen so far.

[CaptHawkeye]

So Germany gets to claim another story featuring their ships, running AWAY from the allies? Germany has never had paticularly good luck with its navy. :)

[Mush Martin]

Poor Craddocks Fate, Sealed by an inevitible commitment to duty.
He knew very well his squadron couldnt hope to match Von Spee.
thats why he tried to independently order Defense to join him.

[TarJak]

So Germany gets to claim another story featuring their ships, running AWAY from the allies? Germany has never had paticularly good luck with its navy. :)Nope the U-boats were about the only real potent threat they had in either war, although Jutland was and interesting learning experience for both sides in WWI.

[Sailor Steve]

"I trust I shall not suffer the fate of poor Troubridge."
-Sir Christopher Craddock

Craddock's fate was sealed earlier in the year when Admirals Milne and Troubridge were court-martialed for letting Goeben escape to Turkey. He knew that he had to stop Spee, and he knew he would probably fail.

The best book I have read on the subject was Graf Spee's Raiders, by Keith Yates.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=graf+spee%27s+raiders

In 2004 I did a series of articles on the naval and air war in 1914 for another forum. Lots of interesting stories there.

[Mush Martin]

Von Spee's squadron certainly posed a legitimate and serious security threat
in the Pacific and the Indian Oceans. Its interesting to observe that
He had succesfully executed the signal ruse at valparaiso. And could have
escaped cleanly back to Germany if he had bypassed the falklands. That
in and of itself wouldve been a tremendous victory, and wouldve further
changed the balance in the north sea.

it was nearer run than that of course, had all his ships arrived in formation
he may have taken the british cruisers while they were still coaling and the
advantage wouldve been his, his misfortune to misinterperet what the
rising smoke actually meant, further, had he recognized Canopus for what
it was his men might even have sailed home victors of sorts.

just a speculation.
M

[Sailor Steve]

Von Spee represents a whole bunch of scenarios I've always wanted to game on the tabletop; and you mention several of the reasons why.

1) I wanted to game Coronel with Canopus present, just to find out if the speculations were true (and they probably were). Of course it would have to be realistic: For Spee the conditions are daylight, while for Craddock it's a night fight.

2) I wanted to game Coronel in broad daylight and calm seas, with and without Canopus.

3) What indeed if Spee had had the prescience to attack Beatty's battlecruisers while they were coaling.

Of course if Spee had resisted the temptation to raid the Falklands he would have been sailing home safely to Germany while the British hunted fruitlessly in the Pacific.

As for the "rising smoke", Spee also had the disadvantage of not being there himself - he only had the panicked report of his second-in-command after the latter had been shelled by Canopus. "Tripod masts! Heavy shells!"

[Mush Martin]

Von Spee represents a whole bunch of scenarios I've always wanted to game on the tabletop; and you mention several of the reasons why.

1) I wanted to game Coronel with Canopus present, just to find out if the speculations were true (and they probably were). Of course it would have to be realistic: For Spee the conditions are daylight, while for Craddock it's a night fight.

2) I wanted to game Coronel in broad daylight and calm seas, with and without Canopus.

3) What indeed if Spee had had the prescience to attack Beatty's battlecruisers while they were coaling.

Of course if Spee had resisted the temptation to raid the Falklands he would have been sailing home safely to Germany while the British hunted fruitlessly in the Pacific.

As for the "rising smoke", Spee also had the disadvantage of not being there himself - he only had the panicked report of his second-in-command after the latter had been shelled by Canopus. "Tripod masts! Heavy shells!"

I dont Believe it I Have you at last.
thats uhm Sturdee steve.:rotfl:

[Sailor Steve]

Dang! Posting off the top of my head! Of course it was Doveton Sturdee. I'm not going to change it now, because that would be cheating.

Let's see if anybody else reads that far and corrects me without looking to see you've already done so.
:rotfl:

[Mush Martin]

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Sorry dude you dont trip over your feet too often:D

[Reece]

VCR set TarJak!:up:

[Sailor Steve]

Well, when I take time to look things up it takes me forever and a day to actually write something. When I just jump in and start typing I'm just like the next...well, no, actually I'm much worse than the next guy.
:rotfl:

[Randomizer]

I think that Doveton Sturdee has been badly treated by history and when I watched this doc (it showed here in Canada earlier this year), it did nothing to address that. Many of the perceptions and initial source material for Coronel and the Falklands comes from Churchill and he was in full CYA damage control mode to disguise how his micromanagement of Admiralty operations (as during the hunt for Goeben) contributed to the disaster. He then took full credit for the Falklands victory though and his antipathy to Sturdee is solidly in the public record.

One could argue that Sir Doveton gave the RN one of it's finest victories ever, destroying 80% of von Spee's force and his supply tail with trifling losses. He expended ammunition rather than lives, fought the battle exactly the way that Jacky Fisher envisioned Battlecruisers to be most effective and left his subordinates unrestricted by excessive signalling. Considering the adoration of David Beatty for the Dogger Bank and the opening phases of Jutland, Sturdee's victory is a model of machine age surface combat, one that he gets very little credit for in my opinion.
Good Hunting

[TarJak]

So having seen this doco is it any good?

I've seen a few WWI docos screened recently and some have been very lacking in factual information and have either skimmed over or completely ignored some of the salient facts relating to the subject. Does this doco do that or are there clear biases in the commentary?

[AntEater]

Actually its german made and was shown here about a year ago.
The acted scenes were shot on the Cruiser Aurora in St.Petersburg.
Pretty average if you ask me, but nice that somebody covered that topic.

[TarJak]

Thanks I'll thake a look anyway as it's a period of interest to me. Hope it isn't too light on though. I don't like dry doco's but I also hate "entertainment first, history second" approaches far more.

[Mush Martin]

I havent seen it, but it occurs to me from what I know of the
details, there were no bad admirals involved on either side.
Nor poor captains I dont think.

Further though I dont feel History has been unkind to Sturdee, he
handed them a trememendous victory.

My Heart goes out to Poor Craddock whos case always leaves my
feeling very sympathetic for a fine Officer and Gentlemen overrun by
circumstance politics and duty and sealed to a fate of doom that
he had to recognize, for all the dignity it must have taken, history
at times tends to only see the loss and the sinkings not the man.
I have little doubt that Craddock with equivalent strength and agility
couldve given very good account of himself even if none of his
crews had won the queens battle practice cup. His choices of tactics
tried all seem pretty sound but his ships didnt and never would have
had the legs to accomplish what he knew he had to achieve to survive.

[TarJak]

Well watched the first episode. 'Twas a bit light on detail but not badly put together as far as the recreations go. Some interesting old WWI footage and photos.

Epsiode one focussed on the escape of the Emden's landing party lead by the XO, that got stranded temporarily on the Cocos (Keeling) Is after their ship got sunk by HMAS Sydney.

Their escape in a leaky Schooner to what was then the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) and their rendezvous with a German freighter which took them to Yemen and the journey northwards to Turkey was interesting but I would have preferred to see a bit more about the engagement with the Sydney and the Emden's earlier exploits in the Indian Ocean. These were treated largely as precursors to the main story about the escape and trip to Turkey.

Overall not bad but less naval than I would have liked. I hope the second one about the Dresden is a little more nautical.:arrgh!:

[bookworm_020]

Well wathced the first episode. 'Twas a bit light on detail but not badly puyt together as far as the recreations go. Some interesting old WWI footage and photos.

Epsiode one focussed on the escape of the Emden's landing party lead by the XO, that got stranded temporarily on the Cocos (Keeling) Is after their ship got sunk by HMAS Sydney.

Their escape in a leaky Schooner to what was then the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) and their rendezvous with a German freighter which took them to Yemen and the journey northwards to Turkey was interesting but I would have preferred to see a bit more about the engagement with the Sydney and the Emden's earlier exploits in the Indian Ocean. These were treated largely as precursors to the main story about the escape and trip to Turkey.

Overall not bad but less naval than I would have liked. I hope the second one about the Dresden is a little more nautical.:arrgh!:

I missed the show, but agree with you TarJack! The exploits of the Emden in the indian ocean is a great example of creative solutions in wartime, with a crew and captain up for the challenge!

The escape of the landing party is a good one, and does deserve to be told, but it was not the main story.

[Reece]

15 mins left for part II!:yep:

[Mush Martin]

@ Sailor Steve.
I was reflecting back on this today as I saw Reece's
post just before I left to take the Wife to work.
I think that remodelling the battle in good weather
would have little effect really, Craddocks squadron
had no hope of being able to close into range for
the secondaries, unless von spee decided to allow it.
the only way to save the situation is to change craddocks
orders, to Fall back on canopus at falklands and tag and
monitor spee with the CL's, but even then
von spee wouldve likely been motivated to bypass and make
the journey home as previously mentioned the signal ruse
worked so all he would need for a clean run across is to dodge
the CL's scouting him. Further though with no disaster at coronel,
Sturdee's squadron never wouldve deployed so maybe
the battle wouldve taken place at the breakin on the
home journey instead. just some thoughts.
M