Bush Orders Military to Deliver Aid to Georgia

[SUBMAN1]

Crap. This now has the capability to spiral out of control.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,402982,00.html

Everyone laughed at me before, but this whole world nuking itself back to the stone age is an even greater risk than it was in the Cold War. Of course, we have a new cold war going on anyway, but at least the old one was more controlled.

-S

[Dowly]

We know, and there's a thread about the situation of/in Georgia just one thread below this (After I post this, prolly 2 threads down). ;)

[Platapus]

while the idea of humanitarian aid is laudable, I have to agree with Subman that this has the potential of going bad real fast.

This is the time for careful and complete thinking.. but when did we ever get that from a politician? :doh:

[DeepIron]

Well, guys, they can't send civilians... then there would be accusations of covert ops... :shifty:

[mapuc]

It's okey to start a new thread about the same thing, when the other thread is many pages and very immense to read.

now back to the thread

is it 100% pure aid in those deliveries?

it's a good way to get wapeon to the Georgian military a.s.o

Markus

[UnderseaLcpl]

What a waste:nope:

We can't afford this crap, as noble as it may be.

[CaptHawkeye]

Yeah. The Georgian military needs more weapons and ammo so it can start shelling civilian centers again! :)

NATO's reaction to this whole crisis has been nothing short of comical. Georgia starts shelling cities causing thousands of casualties. Russia tells them to get bent, they run under NATO's skirt and scream the big bad Russians are being mean to them. Nobody in NATO ever bothered to ask why of course.

[Reece]

Cripes, from the frying pan into the fat!:oops: The Russians may see this as a coverup to the supply of weapons, or an excuse for the US to move troops in, sheesh, deliver aid yes, but by Nato or some close neighbour!:yep:
This is getting a little scary IMO!:doh:

[Mush Martin]

Extra Extra Conflicting Superpowers pull down the UN. IMF now to take
charge......

[Digital_Trucker]

......careful and complete thinking.. but when did we ever get that from a politician? :doh:

You could have left out the careful and complete part, we're lucky if they're even equipped for thinking:88)

[Happy Times]

Yeah. The Georgian military needs more weapons and ammo so it can start shelling civilian centers again! :)

NATO's reaction to this whole crisis has been nothing short of comical. Georgia starts shelling cities causing thousands of casualties. Russia tells them to get bent, they run under NATO's skirt and scream the big bad Russians are being mean to them. Nobody in NATO ever bothered to ask why of course.

Were are these thousands of dead? Why havent the Russians let international observers to see them?
The ones being killed are the Georgians trapped inside Ossetia.

Georgia really needs military assistance to build up force that can defend the whole country. Geography is on their side so a 500.000 strong well trained force would prevent this from hapening ever again. They must realise that they cant rely on outside help, you cant never trust at the end anyone but yourself. They should consult the Israelis for whom they have close ties, they helped to create the Singapore defence forces also. IMO Finland also should help, as it did with Estonia. Small countries with big neighbours can only go with concription and total defence with everything in society prepared for it.

[1480]

HT, it you or ST that posted the observation from the russian reporter that stated that there were like less then a hundred or so russian and ossetian's killed? Most of those were combantants.... kind of takes the charges of genocide or cleaning up the neighborhood and debases them.

The old regime at least had control of it's media (read pravda) and could keep their story straight. These new guys have never had to deal with a "free press" before, video from cell phones, or camcorders. This is what is biting them in the azz right now. Blatent lies, and there is reasonable proof to refute their nonsense. 30 years ago a whole nother ball game..... Some on this site who have become the marc antony's of the russian regime, will soon learn that a point can be made, without useless bloodshed.

[Happy Times]

HT, it you or ST that posted the observation from the russian reporter that stated that there were like less then a hundred or so russian and ossetian's killed? Most of those were combantants.... kind of takes the charges of genocide or cleaning up the neighborhood and debases them.

The old regime at least had control of it's media (read pravda) and could keep their story straight. These new guys have never had to deal with a "free press" before, video from cell phones, or camcorders. This is what is biting them in the azz right now. Blatent lies, and there is reasonable proof to refute their nonsense. 30 years ago a whole nother ball game..... Some on this site who have become the marc antony's of the russian regime, will soon learn that a point can be made, without useless bloodshed.

The Russians evacueted the Ossetians before the war, kind of proves their intentions. OSCE observers have stated its the Georgians that are now ethnically cleansed from Ossetia. The Russian propaganda machine has made a lot of claims that are still floating around.

[Spoon 11th]

Can't the US military just spread ebola over that area?

[Enigma]

Bush. Ugh....:down:

It's also worth noting that McCain has just announced that he's sending his own "delegation" to Georgia, while in the same breath insisting that it's "not a time for politics and partisanship". :roll:

[OneToughHerring]

Can't the US military just spread ebola over that area?

That's probably what they're trying to do, "delivering aid" to me sounds like an euphemism.

[Skybird]

A sober view at the new world order - the new world order after Bush's new world order.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-572059,00.html


The war in the Caucasus is a truly global crisis. Russia's action against the western-looking Georgia testifies to an extreme craving for recognition and is reminiscent of the Cold War. It reveals the reality of the chaotic new world order -- a result of the failures of President Bush's foreign policy.
When the German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier describes the overall situation in the world, he likes to refer to what he calls a "new complexity" of circumstances. Yet things were already complex before the war in the Caucasus region, which has its roots in the 19th century more than in the 21st, but now we have been deprived of one small piece of ignorance. Who would have even bothered to try and pinpoint South Ossetia on the map or to carefully differentiate it from North Ossetia before the conflict? And this is supposed to be a world crisis?

But it is one indeed, because the crisis has given oil and gas producer Russia an alibi for cleaning up along its borders in places like Georgia, where the United States and NATO were beginning to exert their influence. It is a world crisis, because this wounded ex-superpower decided, some time ago, that it was going to put an end to a phase of humiliation and losses, of NATO and American expansion.
People took to the streets in the Baltic states, and the Polish president traveled to Georgia to participate in a show of solidarity among the weak, among countries with a long historical memory of what Russia can do to the weak. It is no coincidence that Eastern Europeans suspect that the West is hedging its bets, as it did in 1938, 1956, 1961 and 1968, in loud silence and inactive appeasement. Their illusions are suddenly dropping away like autumn leaves.
Part of the truth is that the United States had rather relished treating Russia and its then president, Vladimir Putin, as yesterday's superpower and leader. US President George W. Bush withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty and invented a missile shield in the Czech Republic and Poland. The revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia, reverberations of the revolutionary fall of 1989, were made possible by the gracious assistance and coaching of American foundations and think tanks. There was nothing wrong with this approach, but America, the overwhelmingly superior superpower, was petty enough to gloat over its achievements.
A Touch of the Old Cold War
John McCain, who hopes to become the 44th US president, has come up with the spectacular idea of establishing a league of democracies that would address the world's problems whenever the United Nations is gridlocked, in other words, whenever there is an important issue on the table. If this league existed today, would intervention forces already have been deployed to the Caucasus? And now McCain has come up with the no less original idea of excluding Russia from the golden circle of G8 nations. Does anyone have any other bright ideas on how to punish the miscreant?
The new complexity consists of the fact that a few opportunities were missed after 1989, such as the chance to develop a resilient relationship among the European Union, NATO and Russia. Before long, our only concern will be over whether we should in fact entrust the Russia, as uninterested in democracy as they are, with our energy security.
It is true that there is a touch of the old Cold War to August 2008. And yet it is also true that the month's events constitute only a subcategory of the larger complexity in which the world finds itself today. The United States is the common denominator. On the one hand, it had no qualms about tormenting Russia, and yet it is incapable of coming to Georgia's aid. It was also apparently unable to dissuade the Georgian president from embarking on his adventure. CNN is so enamored of Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili that he is constantly asked to appear on the news network for interviews, so that he can instill his view of things -- of Georgia on the road to democracy, and of Russia succumbing to revanchism -- in the Americans, to the delight of the White House.
A Lopsided Multipolarity
The world ceased to be a unipolar place when the Iraq war began. When the neocons used the word unipolarity, they were referring to the idea that the world's sole superpower, thanks to its military superiority, could assume that it was entitled to the role of global cop, and that the world must bend to its will, whether it wanted to or not.
Now a new technical term has come into circulation: multipolarity. It means that a number of powers can do as they please, without punishment, and no one can do much about it. China can do as it pleases with Tibet, the Uyghurs and its dissidents, and it can buy its energy where it pleases. India can sign a nuclear treaty with the United States, and can then vacillate between choosing to ditch the agreement and keep it in place. Iran can decide to become a nuclear power and then wait to see what happens, to see whether Israel and the United States, for example, will issue empty threats of air strikes while Russia and China obstruct the superpower in the UN Security Council whenever it calls for effective resolutions.
But the new multipolarity is lopsided. America is still the power without which nothing works -- whether it be sensible or senseless. China is moving in its own orbit and is unlikely to move forward as quickly as it had hoped until recently. It's easier to win gold medals than establish a stable world power by combining capitalism with communism. India is drifting along behind China, struggling with its own domestic problems and unable to decide whether it should throw in its lot with China or the United States.
And Russia? It has a tremendous craving for recognition and a ludicrous amount of money. That money could be put to great use, to develop a nation, for example. That would be a goal that made sense. In the long run, Putin will have to stop playing the bare-chested macho man, the great loner who couldn't care less about alliances and world opinion.
And so the world finds itself in a state of new complexity. It's a nice, inoffensive term, one difficult to criticize. Things are already tremendously in flux. But aren't things always in flux, sometimes more, sometimes less? In 1957, the new British Prime Harold McMillan was asked what would determine the course of his government. "Events, my good man, events," he replied. Yesterday there was Iraq, today there is the Caucasus, and the Palestinian problem never seems to go away. What happens tomorrow?

[Platapus]

Georgia really needs military assistance to build up force that can defend the whole country. Geography is on their side so a 500.000 strong well trained force would prevent this from hapening ever again.


A 500,000 person military would be 11% of the total population of Georgia. Their economy could not support such a large military.:nope:

Their GDP is only US$20 Billion.

[Konovalov]

Georgia really needs military assistance to build up force that can defend the whole country. Geography is on their side so a 500.000 strong well trained force would prevent this from hapening ever again.


A 500,000 person military would be 11% of the total population of Georgia. Their economy could not support such a large military.:nope:

Their GDP is only US$20 Billion.
They need to go forth and multiply big time. Build some baby making factories.

[AkbarGulag]

American military traffic will deepen the problem. The russians will now make sure no such aid has a route in aside from air traffic, the direct result being a more lengthy incurison including possible territorial annexation. The Russians clearly don't trust the Georgians, especially so with US involvment, and will press on with an 'Israeli' solution by pounding key select infrastructure to rubble. Much like that done to Lebanon.

On the other side, the Georgians also wil push for more confrontation. This they hope, will draw a direct military response from the US or maybe a 'coalition of the willing'.

It's clear that the Georgian government doesn't mind being the 'Arch-duke' in this scenario. They may take a bullet, but they will gamble on bringing everything down around them.

This is what happens when some countries happily use unilateral action as a constant, then think they can stop another power doing the same thing in their own backyard.

[Oberon]

Georgia really needs military assistance to build up force that can defend the whole country. Geography is on their side so a 500.000 strong well trained force would prevent this from hapening ever again.


A 500,000 person military would be 11% of the total population of Georgia. Their economy could not support such a large military.:nope:

Their GDP is only US$20 Billion.
They need to go forth and multiply big time. Build some baby making factories.

There you go! That's where HT and Dowly can help! Go over there, find some nice ladies and help the Georgians expand their military :up: ;)

[AntEater]

It seems the document Sakashvili signed on Monday was not a peace plan after all, but a clear-cut capitulation.
This document actually gives russia the right to do what it currently does.
Even while Sakashvili was clearly extremely fatigued, he must've known what he was signing, so despite US rhetoric, Georgia has de facto capitulated.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14document.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Actually the georgians tried to limit the "additional security measures" to six months and had to sign a treaty without a date limit on those measure.
Sakashvili is really a clown. He let himself be celebrated as a hero before signing the surrender of his country.
Another lesson: If the french come, it is always something about surrendering
:rotfl:

[Skybird]

It seems the document Sakashvili signed on Monday was not a peace plan after all, but a clear-cut capitulation.
This document actually gives russia the right to do what it currently does.
Even while Sakashvili was clearly extremely fatigued, he must've known what he was signing, so despite US rhetoric, Georgia has de facto capitulated.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14document.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Actually the georgians tried to limit the "additional security measures" to six months and had to sign a treaty without a date limit on those measure.
Sakashvili is really a clown. He let himself be celebrated as a hero before signing the surrender of his country.
Another lesson: If the french come, it is always something about surrendering
:rotfl:

Hear, hear.

Saakashvilli more and more reminds me of this this funny Iraqi, who was it, comical Ali, you know the one clown who constantly told the cameras how victorious Iraq was advancing and how terribly the americans got a beating. Saakashvilli lies when he opens his mouth, always exaggerating, always trying to deceive people by spiking up emotions as high as possible (and especially the Washington Post and CNN seem to happily hang on his lips and let him says and print every nonsens he breathes out), and he reports a thiusand attacks (while hiding his own), and ambush here and desaster there and avances and columns and what and wowh and ohmygod. Ridiculing himself with every word he speaks and every decision he now takes, how could anyone believe this ruthless comedian anymore.

germa media report that even the americans start to win distance to him. Maybe they have not shown him the door already, but they handed him his coat already, for sure.

Trottel! Elected or not, the sooner he dissappears from the stage, the better for all, especially his own people. he hardly is the shining example of a democrat some people describe him as anyway. The opposition got a taste of his democratic understanding several times during demonstrations - by the sticks and fists of his riot police. Russia says the US now must choose between this "virtual project" of theirs, Geogia, and the importance of international relations with Russia. That'S where the US now is, yes indeed. In the end, it is a consequence of a failed global American policy of the past 10 years. It all now backfires. Blowbacks, such consequences are called in intel-language: consequences one has caused so long ago that one does not rememeber anymore and thus their manifestation give the impression of coming by surprise, out of the blue, unpredicted. In reality it just is about one's own forgetfulness, or one-sided bias.

[Skybird]

and while Anteater pointed at specifics of that agreement the pro-Georgia camp will not be pleased to hear, I may remind you of this article in the WP that indicated that McCain security advisor also was (and is?) on the payrole of Georgia, lobbying for it. Reminds me of the never silencing accusations regarding the strong Israeli influence on internal american policy-forming.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/12/AR2008081202932_pf.html

Rumour is Obama aids sent a card saying thanks to the McCain campaigning camp. :D

[AntEater]

Actually, as you mention them:
Israel is quite restrained on the whole thing, despite the fact that the georgian defense minister is an israeli citizen, a georgian jew with both passports.
First, Israel wants russia not to supply weapons to Hezbollah or Iran.
Second, Israel has done pretty much the same to Lebanon two years ago.

Funny was how different israeli war reporters covered that conflict.
While the whole western press spoke of "heavy bombardment" to Gori, Israeli reporters spoke of "some mortar fire".
Having military experience is quite useful for a reporter, it seems.

Btw, regarding all those soviet analogies, it is strange that always Russia is equated with the USSR.
Reminds me how Austria managed to escape all the blame for the Nazis, despite the fact that not only Hitler but scores of important Nazis were Austrians.
The other soviet republics managed to do the same in regards to the USSR.
Not only Stalin was Georgian, but Beria, Orzhonikidse and basically all of Beria's staff.
Mikoyan was Armenian, Melkhis (one of the greatest purgers in the 30s) was Latvian, Khrushev was Ukrainian....

Regarding Israel, foreign minister Livni recently (before the war) blocked a military package ordered by Georgia.
It included guns, APCs, helicopter gunships and Merkava tanks.
Second hand weapons, but still modern israeli hardware. Merkava tanks were never exported to anyone sofar. I suppose the gunships might've been Cobras.
Seems like a "Sakashvili gets no Merkavas and Achmadinejad gets no S-300s" deal here.
I suppose if Sakashvili's gamble had worked and he had retaken Ossetia, the israeli arms would've been used for the reconquest of Abkhazia.

[Skybird]

'No US forces needed in Georgia'

(translates into: "The mean Russians don't let us play with them". :D )

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561586.stm

german media report that even the americans start to win distance to him. Maybe they have not shown him the door already, but they handed him his coat already, for sure.

Gate'S statement is the official beginning of the end of Shaakashvilli.

Meanwhile, Sarkozy also gets only a cautious welcome at home:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7560279.stm

Europe is "divided between old and new member states" with the first "being understanding towards Russia, the second not at all".

These divisions were perceived as having complicated Mr Sarkozy's task of representing the EU in Moscow this week.
Yves Theard in the centre-right Le Figaro said that "the Europe of 27 members states is not well placed to curb Russian confidence. "Too many countries, freed from the yoke of Moscow, are driven by a desire for revenge against Russia to allow for a calm, united and consensual European diplomacy. Poland and the Baltic states are not ready".

[Happy Times]

Georgia really needs military assistance to build up force that can defend the whole country. Geography is on their side so a 500.000 strong well trained force would prevent this from hapening ever again.


A 500,000 person military would be 11% of the total population of Georgia. Their economy could not support such a large military.:nope:

Their GDP is only US$20 Billion.

That doesnt stop from training everyone, its the doctrine and trained command that counts the most. Assistance in giving them surplus material would be good though.
They can afford to arm everyone with basic individual material. The bulk of troops should be these local troops of territorial defence, they give the attrition element that is used to hamper and channel the enemy andvances. They are trained to work even behind enemy lines cutting its logistics.
The mobile best armed elements operate in the area of the whole country, and are to block and destroy the enemy in chosen locations. You can inflict massive casualties to the enemy with this system to the point it raises stresshold to start the conflict.

[Skybird]

Georgia really needs military assistance to build up force that can defend the whole country. Geography is on their side so a 500.000 strong well trained force would prevent this from hapening ever again.


A 500,000 person military would be 11% of the total population of Georgia. Their economy could not support such a large military.:nope:

Their GDP is only US$20 Billion.

That doesnt stop from training everyone, its the doctrine and trained command that counts the most. Assistance in giving them surplus material would be good though.
They can afford to arm everyone with basic individual material. The bulk of troops should be these local troops of territorial defence, they give the attrition element that is used to hamper and channel the enemy andvances. They are trained to work even behind enemy lines cutting its logistics.
The mobile best armed elements operate in the area of the whole country, and are to block and destroy the enemy in chosen locations. You can inflict massive casualties to the enemy with this system to the point it raises stresshold to start the conflict.
While the enemy has an airforce and an artillery that could flatten any city there is in Georgia, multiple times. Is that what you are asking for?

Come to your senses, HT. You allow your emotions carrying you away and hijacking your fantasy.

Russian military, if challenged, is not known for it's subtleties, they don'T mind not being as concerned about collateral damage as some western forces are. If they do not have a scalpel to do a job, they use a morning star. It is absurd to expect a dwarf like Georgia learning to become able to seriously compete with a giant like Russia.

[Happy Times]

Georgia really needs military assistance to build up force that can defend the whole country. Geography is on their side so a 500.000 strong well trained force would prevent this from hapening ever again.


A 500,000 person military would be 11% of the total population of Georgia. Their economy could not support such a large military.:nope:

Their GDP is only US$20 Billion.

That doesnt stop from training everyone, its the doctrine and trained command that counts the most. Assistance in giving them surplus material would be good though.
They can afford to arm everyone with basic individual material. The bulk of troops should be these local troops of territorial defence, they give the attrition element that is used to hamper and channel the enemy andvances. They are trained to work even behind enemy lines cutting its logistics.
The mobile best armed elements operate in the area of the whole country, and are to block and destroy the enemy in chosen locations. You can inflict massive casualties to the enemy with this system to the point it raises stresshold to start the conflict.
While the enemy has an airforce and an artillery that could flatten any city there is in Georgia, multiple times. Is that what you are asking for?

Come to your senses, HT. You allow your emotions carrying you away and hijacking your fantasy.

Russian military, if challenged, is not known for it's subtleties, they don'T mind not being as concerned about collateral damage as some western forces are. If they do not have a scalpel to do a job, they use a morning star. It is absurd to expect a dwarf like Georgia learning to become able to seriously compete with a giant like Russia.

That the system we have here and i have have have no doubt it works, air defences are of priority of course. Russia isnt as powerful as you think if nukes arent counted.

[Skybird]

That the system we have here and i have have have no doubt it works, air defences are of priority of course. Russia isnt as powerful as you think if nukes arent counted.

Georgia couldn't be as powerful as you think. there is no air defense against artillery, btw. Grosny was flattened less by airstrikes and more by artillery shelling. the russians are world champions in artillery, and no other nation's doctrine stresses artillery as much as theirs: lessons from WW2.

However.

Meanwhile this:


'The US Has More Important Concerns Right Now'

Respected American Russia expert Clifford Gaddy warns in a SPIEGEL ONLINE interview that sanctions against Russia for invading Georgia could backfire. Though Europe shouldn't antagonize Russia, he argues, it should deplore the violence and urge restraint.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Should NATO engage militarily in Georgia if the conflict escalates again?
Clifford G. Gaddy: No.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Are sanctions the right answer?
Gaddy: Hardly. I cannot imagine what sort of sanctions there might be, even if one were persuaded that a sanctions policy would be desirable. Economic sanctions are unthinkable because the Russians have more leverage over us than vice-versa. Legal and political sanctions -- like kicking Russia out of the G-8, barring Russia from World Trade Organization membership, and so on -- would be ineffectual at best and counterproductive at worst. They are all of the "let's-shoot-ourselves-in-the-foot" variety.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: What are you expecting from the Europeans in this situation?
Gaddy: Deplore the violence, urge restraint, plead for a peace settlement, avoid antagonizing the Russians too much. More productively, perhaps they will take the opportunity to engage one another in a serious but quiet discussion about where Russia is headed, what it really wants, and what the West can and should do in the long term.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: A few months back US President George W. Bush wanted to help pave the way for future Georgian membership in NATO. Was it a huge political mistake?
Gaddy: Yes.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Do you think we are seeing the start of a new power struggle between Washington and Moscow that could continue for years to come?
Gaddy: No. The US has far too many other, more important concerns right now, and Russia is not interested in a struggle with the US. But the main reason there will not be a power struggle is that there is nothing to struggle over. The US has already lost its former role as world leader. Russia neither wants to, or is able to, to replace it. Russia's goal is rather a negative one: to ensure that no threat to it can emerge from the territory of the states closest to its borders. It will therefore continue to bully its neighbors in various ways. Russia's behavior will be morally unacceptable to the US, but it will not be generally perceived as threatening to the US. In the end, the rhetoric between Russia and the US. will become hotter, and relations will become cooler. But there will not be a power struggle.

Straight, and sober.

from: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-572052,00.html

ABOUT CLIFFORD G. GADDY
Economist Clifford G. Gaddy has served as a Russia expert at the Brookings Institution think tank in Washington, DC since 1991. Before his most recent trip to Moscow, US President George W. Bush invited Gaddy and other Russia experts to the White House to ask for their opinions. Gaddy is considered a skeptic of the current state of affairs in Russia and has warned of instability.

[August]

What exactly does an Economist know about military matters, hmm?

[Happy Times]

That the system we have here and i have have have no doubt it works, air defences are of priority of course. Russia isnt as powerful as you think if nukes arent counted.

Georgia couldn't be as powerful as you think. there is no air defense against artillery, btw. Grosny was flattened less by airstrikes and more by artillery shelling. the russians are world champions in artillery, and no other nation's doctrine stresses artillery as much as theirs: lessons from WW2.

They have lots of it but their use of it really lacks when it comes to using it in something else than leveling towns. Effective counter battery fire isnt about numbers but methods and that is what you defend with against big Russian artillery concentrations.
You have to be better in areas that you can compete, c&c, sigint, tactics, methods, initiave from top to bottom. Georgia can have a better defence if it is willing to work hard and not cut any corners. This has to be a national consensus to do thiss, the will. Every sector of society has to know its role in time of war, from industry to civil servants, these have to be prepared and trained before hand. Then you can do mass evacuations in days, and have stockpiles of critical supplies for months.

[Skybird]

That the system we have here and i have have have no doubt it works, air defences are of priority of course. Russia isnt as powerful as you think if nukes arent counted.

Georgia couldn't be as powerful as you think. there is no air defense against artillery, btw. Grosny was flattened less by airstrikes and more by artillery shelling. the russians are world champions in artillery, and no other nation's doctrine stresses artillery as much as theirs: lessons from WW2.

They have lots of it but their use of it really lacks when it comes to using it in something else than leveling towns. Effective counter battery fire isnt about numbers but methods and that is what you defend with against big Russian artillery concentrations.
You have to be better in areas that you can compete, c&c, sigint, tactics, methods, initiave from top to bottom. Georgia can have a better defence if it is willing to work hard and not cut any corners. This has to be a national consensus to do thiss, the will. Every sector of society has to know its role in time of war, from industry to civil servants, these have to be prepared and trained before hand. Then you can do mass evacuations in days, and have stockpiles of critical supplies for months.

their GNP is mlimited. even when 50% would be defense budget, they hardly could pay for what you imagine. and I always believed that greater numbers can only compensated for by better quality to a certain degree - and not beyond.

However, this detail of the debate - making Georgia a local superpower - is purely academic and lightyears off reality. Sijnc esiuch a Geoprgia also would bring new problems - I for sure do not wish to have a nation ruled my hyperemotional maniacs having such an arsenal when they are all to willing obviously to use it to attack russia and demand that Europe has to fopllow their example. as I said, your fanatasy is in every way just academic. the Us tried to work into that direciton you outlined, since years they support them in training, advisors on the ground and equipment, for the only sake of artificially rising a Wetsern presence in the Caucasian. the whol prject I consider to have been a total waste, and a totally bad idea. I totally agree with the Russians when they dubbed it "America's virtual project".

So, if you want to turn Georgia into a next military giant - do it with stocks from the Finish army, please, but leave the rest of us out of it.

[Rockstar]

The United States is the common denominator.

You ********* . It is in your back yard AGAIN the common denominator is YOU. ***** YOU are the common denominator AGAIN. Clean it up.

You *** live right next door to each other and still refuse to admit to anything or open your eyes to whats happening around you. Like death camps in Yugoslavia you just sat there heads stuck in the sand hoping nobody else would see it either. Well there YOU are again sitting on your arses this time Russia took advantage of your pacifist girly man ways. YEP THATS RIGHT! RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO THE HIGH AND MIGHTY ABOVE IT ALL EUROPEANS.

You just sit there letting things like this go by until it's too late then ya'all come out of the wood work chirping like parakeets and pointing fingers to cover your own inadequacies. *******

[Skybird]

"Okay Rockstar, and now tell me all positive things that spontaneously come to your mind when thinking about your mother."

[AntEater]

The United States is the common denominator.
You simple minded twits. It is in your back yard AGAIN the common denominator is YOU. Farkin' euros bunch of racsit, warlike bickering, back stabbing, spoiled little brats. YOU are the common denominator AGAIN. Clean it up.

You live right next door to each other and refuse to admit to anything or open your eyes to see whats happening. Like Yugoslavia you just sat there heads stucj in the ground hopiong nobody else would see it either. Well there YOU are again sitting on your arses this time Russia took advantage of your pacifist girly man ways and ran right over you.

You just sit there letting things like this go by until it's too late and then you all come out of the wood work chirping like parakeets and pointing fingers to cover your own inadequacies. Grow up girls and grow a pair.

This post was sponsored by
http://images.zwani.com/graphics/alcohol/images/96alcohol12.jpg

[Happy Times]

That the system we have here and i have have have no doubt it works, air defences are of priority of course. Russia isnt as powerful as you think if nukes arent counted.

Georgia couldn't be as powerful as you think. there is no air defense against artillery, btw. Grosny was flattened less by airstrikes and more by artillery shelling. the russians are world champions in artillery, and no other nation's doctrine stresses artillery as much as theirs: lessons from WW2.

They have lots of it but their use of it really lacks when it comes to using it in something else than leveling towns. Effective counter battery fire isnt about numbers but methods and that is what you defend with against big Russian artillery concentrations.
You have to be better in areas that you can compete, c&c, sigint, tactics, methods, initiave from top to bottom. Georgia can have a better defence if it is willing to work hard and not cut any corners. This has to be a national consensus to do thiss, the will. Every sector of society has to know its role in time of war, from industry to civil servants, these have to be prepared and trained before hand. Then you can do mass evacuations in days, and have stockpiles of critical supplies for months.

their GNP is mlimited. even when 50% would be defense budget, they hardly could pay for what you imagine. and I always believed that greater numbers can only compensated for by better quality to a certain degree - and not beyond.

However, this detail of the debate - making Georgia a local superpower - is purely academic and lightyears off reality. Sijnc esiuch a Geoprgia also would bring new problems - I for sure do not wish to have a nation ruled my hyperemotional maniacs having such an arsenal when they are all to willing obviously to use it to attack russia and demand that Europe has to fopllow their example. as I said, your fanatasy is in every way just academic. the Us tried to work into that direciton you outlined, since years they support them in training, advisors on the ground and equipment, for the only sake of artificially rising a Wetsern presence in the Caucasian. the whol prject I consider to have been a total waste, and a totally bad idea. I totally agree with the Russians when they dubbed it "America's virtual project".

So, if you want to turn Georgia into a next military giant - do it with stocks from the Finish army, please, but leave the rest of us out of it.

Hardly a military giant but recpecteble defence, they have the right to it(obiviously the need) and i just outlined how it is possible to achieve. You want them to be a dwarf puppet of Russia, that isnt going to happen anymore.This is in the interest of the West as those pipelines are of strategic value. My guess is that material assistence will come to Georgia even that you dont like it. Their economy has the biggest growth rate in Europe, almost 10%, so that promises good things for their GDP in 10-20 years.

[Skybird]

Hardly a military giant but recpecteble defence, they have the right to it(obiviously the need) and i just outlined how it is possible to achieve. You want them to be a dwarf puppet of Russia, that isnt going to happen anymore.
Turning things I said into extremes I have said NOT, eh? I said what they are. If you think my wishes and desires have anything to do with it, then that is your reading from the cards.

And they will be minimised from now - that is what is going to happen.

This is in the interest of the West as those pipelines are of strategic value.
The pipelines are one factor, but they do not copensate for all other factors and risks. Also, they are a plan so far, no reality. they are one of the reason why the US wants that place so much, agreed. It is hard to imagine that this pipeline now will be build anywa. Building pipelines is a stellar investement. And in such a vulnerable unprotectable and critical place? You will find no investor being enthusiastic about this anymore.

My guess is that material assistence will come to Georgia even that you dont like it.

Oh material assistance WILL come to Georgia, no doubt. just not of that kind that you imagine. eventually a couple of handheld system get smuggled in. WHY DO YOU THINK THE RUSSIANS ARE PLAYING SO TOUGH...? You really think they sit and just watch if your visions would get realised and Georgia turns to becoem a military thread?

Their economy has the biggest growth rate in Europe, almost 10%, so that promises good things for their GDP in 10-20 years.

HT, you are grabbing desperately grabbing for anything, eh? Their current GDP is just 20 billion, as was said, and you argue with 10% (actually it varies between 8.5 and 9.4% since 2006, slowly declining, at an inflation rate of over 10%). Do some economical math, and calculate factors like consequences from the war and stock markets, refugees, rebuilding, world economy climate worstening and energy crisis, russian economic intervention and russian stock market manipulations as well. 20 billion, that is just 20 Milliarden in German, and that is not even two thirds of the total worth that is estimated for Finish Nokia corproation. And Georgia will not be able to keep those growth rates forever, they are aleady shrinking since three years - niot to mention what willö be in 10 and 20 years.

I think you are obessed with something, HT. Wake up to reality - trying to imporve by basing one's strategies on false assessements necessarily leads to desaster, since one is not adressing reality with efforts one carries out, but illusions. With such a surreal strategy, maybe even voodoo would be of greater help. You don'T like Russia, fine. I am not really a fan as well. But that does not make the facts different than they are.

[Happy Times]

Hardly a military giant but recpecteble defence, they have the right to it(obiviously the need) and i just outlined how it is possible to achieve. You want them to be a dwarf puppet of Russia, that isnt going to happen anymore.
Turning things I said into extremes I have said NOT, eh? I said what they are. If you think my wishes and desires have anything to do with it, then that is your reading from the cards.

And they will be minimised from now - that is what is going to happen.

I ment that they arent a puppet and will not become one, you seem to think it would be a natural development that you think is completly acceptable.

This is in the interest of the West as those pipelines are of strategic value.
The pipelines are one factor, but they do not copensate for all other factors and risks. Also, they are a plan so far, no reality. they are one of the reason why the US wants that place so much, agreed. It is hard to imagine that this pipeline now will be build anywa. Building pipelines is a stellar investement. And in such a vulnerable unprotectable and critical place? You will find no investor being enthusiastic about this anymore.

There are allready 3 pipelines through Georgia.

My guess is that material assistence will come to Georgia even that you dont like it.

Oh material assistance WILL come to Georgia, no doubt. just not of that kind that you imagine. eventually a couple of handheld system get smuggled in. WHY DO YOU THINK THE RUSSIANS ARE PLAYING SO TOUGH...? You really think they sit and just watch if your visions would get realised and Georgia turns to becoem a military thread?

They hardly have choice after the ceasefire is in affect and international peacekeepers on place, from their point of wiew they should have invaded the country. Now they alieneted Georgia for good, theres no trust left.

Their economy has the biggest growth rate in Europe, almost 10%, so that promises good things for their GDP in 10-20 years.

HT, you are grabbing desperately grabbing for anything, eh? Their current GDP is just 20 billion, as was said, and you argue with 10% (actually it varies between 8.5 and 9.4% since 2006, slowly declining, at an inflation rate of over 10%). Do some economical math, and calculate factors like consequences from the war and stock markets, refugees, rebuilding, world economy climate worstening and energy crisis, russian economic intervention and russian stock market manipulations as well. 20 billion, that is just 20 Milliarden in German, and that is not even two thirds of the total worth that is estimated for Finish Nokia corproation. And Georgia will not be able to keep those growth rates forever, they are aleady shrinking since three years - niot to mention what willö be in 10 and 20 years.

http://www.traveldocs.com/ge/economy.htm
Doesnt sound very different from what Finland started of, maybe i have more faith in economical and military dwarfs than you, coming from a big country.

I think you are obessed with something, HT. Wake up to reality - trying to imporve by basing one's strategies on false assessements necessarily leads to desaster, since one is not adressing reality with efforts one carries out, but illusions. With such a surreal strategy, maybe even voodoo would be of greater help. You don'T like Russia, fine. I am not really a fan as well. But that does not make the facts different than they are.

The fact i feel strongly about some things doesnt make unable to analyze the world.
I could say you are obsessed with Russia, you have your vision how world will or should develop and i have mine. I dont see a Europe dominated by Moscow and Berlin axis to happen for exsample. Im not saiyng you have said so, but in case that is your vision.

[sergbuto]

The fact i feel strongly about some things doesnt make unable to analyze the world.
Oh, yes, it does. Emotions and hate never allow for proper analysis to be made.

[sergbuto]

The United States is the common denominator.
You simple minded twits. It is in your back yard AGAIN the common denominator is YOU. Farkin' euros bunch of racsit, warlike bickering, back stabbing, spoiled little brats. YOU are the common denominator AGAIN. Clean it up.

You live right next door to each other and refuse to admit to anything or open your eyes to see whats happening. Like Yugoslavia you just sat there heads stucj in the ground hopiong nobody else would see it either. Well there YOU are again sitting on your arses this time Russia took advantage of your pacifist girly man ways and ran right over you.

You just sit there letting things like this go by until it's too late and then you all come out of the wood work chirping like parakeets and pointing fingers to cover your own inadequacies. Grow up girls and grow a pair.

This post was sponsored by
http://images.zwani.com/graphics/alcohol/images/96alcohol12.jpg
:rotfl:

[Fish]

Georgia really needs military assistance to build up force that can defend the whole country. Geography is on their side so a 500.000 strong well trained force would prevent this from hapening ever again.

It's 4.5 million Georgiërs against 140 milion Russians. :cool:

And 500.000 men, where do you get them from, the US have 1.4 millioen on a 280 million inhabitans.

[Happy Times]

The fact i feel strongly about some things doesnt make unable to analyze the world.
Oh, yes, it does. Emotions and hate never allow for proper analysis to be made.

I could also argue that you have never been able to be objective on issues concerning Russians. And i dont hate Russians, i think they don know any better, but i dont have much respect for the people in charge of the country.

[Happy Times]

Georgia really needs military assistance to build up force that can defend the whole country. Geography is on their side so a 500.000 strong well trained force would prevent this from hapening ever again.

It's 4.5 million Georgiërs against 140 milion Russians. :cool:

And 500.000 men, where do you get them from, the US have 1.4 millioen on a 280 million inhabitans.

Concsription, i said so.

[sergbuto]

Georgia really needs military assistance to build up force that can defend the whole country. Geography is on their side so a 500.000 strong well trained force would prevent this from hapening ever again.
It's 4.5 million Georgiërs against 140 milion Russians. :cool:

And 500.000 men, where do you get them from, the US have 1.4 millioen on a 280 million inhabitans.

This is Sparta :D
Good one, Mikhayl. :lol:

[Rockstar]

All the european armchair quarterbacks are once again back in place I see. As usual so wonderfully insightful AFTER the fact.

Why the silence prior too and after the fact from the high and mighty above the fray eurogirl governments. Is it because Russia surprised the world? Maybe you just didn't see it coming, or maybe it's because this is YOUR proxy war for oil. Where is Britain, Italy, France, Germany speaking out against the atrositites for such an act against Georgia? How come instead we have to hear it from intellectually superior here at Subsim.com.

Let see, Russian supplies 25% of your oil and 45% of your natural gas. I suppose if you actually grew a pair Russia wouldn't hesitate to turn it off completly or jack up the price so fast you eurogirls would be living in cardboard boxes before the weeks end. No, you will let your oil supplyers do as they please while you sit atop your self proclaimed intellectual high ground and looking down upon the whole ordeal as someone elses problem. Lamenting over the horrors of war, crying out how many more people will die if somebody else doesn't put a stop to it. The burden you bear, it must be terrible for you.

If someone does step up to the plate and the bombing stops. I can't wait to hear another round of your chirrping insightful after the fact critiques and finger pointing by the way it was handled. On the otherhand if you keep your heads in the sand long enought it might just go away. Then! after you dust off you can all pat yourselves on the back for leading the way to a peaceful resolution.

But for now it's mums the word, point fingers and look for excuses eh eurogirls?

[Happy Times]

All the european armchair quarterbacks are once again back in place I see. As usual so wonderfully insightful AFTER the fact.

Why the silence prior too and after the fact from the high and mighty above the fray eurogirl governments. Is it because Russia surprised the world? Maybe you just didn't see it coming, or maybe it's because this is YOUR proxy war for oil. Where is Britain, Italy, France, Germany speaking out against the atrositites for such an act against Georgia? How come instead we have to hear it from intellectually superior here at Subsim.com.

Let see, Russian supplies 25% of your oil and 45% of your natural gas. I suppose if you actually grew a pair Russia wouldn't hesitate to turn it off completly or jack up the price so fast you eurogirls would be living in cardboard boxes before the weeks end. No, you will let your oil supplyers do as they please while you sit atop your self proclaimed intellectual high ground and looking down upon the whole ordeal as someone elses problem. Lamenting over the horrors of war, crying out how many more people will die if somebody else doesn't put a stop to it. The burden you bear, it must be terrible for you.

If someone does step up to the plate and the bombing stops. I can't wait to hear another round of your chirrping insightful after the fact critiques and finger pointing by the way it was handled. On the otherhand if you keep your heads in the sand long enought it might just go away. Then! after you dust off you can all pat yourselves on the back for leading the way to a peaceful resolution.

But for now it's mums the word, point fingers and look for excuses eh eurogirls?

:up: :rotfl:

[Foxtrot]

All the european armchair quarterbacks are once again back in place I see. As usual so wonderfully insightful AFTER the fact.

Why the silence prior too and after the fact from the high and mighty above the fray eurogirl governments. Is it because Russia surprised the world? Maybe you just didn't see it coming, or maybe it's because this is YOUR proxy war for oil. Where is Britain, Italy, France, Germany speaking out against the atrositites for such an act against Georgia? How come instead we have to hear it from intellectually superior here at Subsim.com.

Let see, Russian supplies 25% of your oil and 45% of your natural gas. I suppose if you actually grew a pair Russia wouldn't hesitate to turn it off completly or jack up the price so fast you eurogirls would be living in cardboard boxes before the weeks end. No, you will let your oil supplyers do as they please while you sit atop your self proclaimed intellectual high ground and looking down upon the whole ordeal as someone elses problem. Lamenting over the horrors of war, crying out how many more people will die if somebody else doesn't put a stop to it. The burden you bear, it must be terrible for you.

If someone does step up to the plate and the bombing stops. I can't wait to hear another round of your chirrping insightful after the fact critiques and finger pointing by the way it was handled. On the otherhand if you keep your heads in the sand long enought it might just go away. Then! after you dust off you can all pat yourselves on the back for leading the way to a peaceful resolution.

But for now it's mums the word, point fingers and look for excuses eh eurogirls?

Calm down buddy. Would my porn collection help you? There're some Czech girls too

No pun intended but someone somewhere is doing some piss poor job

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONICYAHcTcc

[UnderseaLcpl]

My only regret about this conflict is that we're not selling weapons to both sides.

[Rockstar]

I'm calm and quite frankly pretty darned happy.

It's just I see the usual bunch of self proclaimed intellectuals claiming the moral high ground chirping the same old song. After all the high and mighty talk about peace and happyness in eurogirlandia a freaking war starts in their own backyard AGAIN. Then the usual b.s. ensues "oh no Bush sends troops!" "What did Cheney have to do with it?" U.S. this, U.S. that, what a load of tripe. Critquing the whole affair from their armchairs they're farking useless and nothing more than a bunch of hypocritical female cry babies. Of course when that doesn't work eurogirls talk about statistics, numbers and or how economics are playing a part between the warring countries. How the Georgians could do this if... or Russia could but... If those eurotypes who frequent this board are any indication of what eurogirls are made of the reason I suppose eurogirl history oozes carnage, violence and war is they are just a bunch of hollow lifeless bastiges.

I am waiting to see the eurogirls stand up to the Russian bear. Come on girls take your heads out of the sand just once lets see you actually participate in world affairs. Lets see if all your 20/20 hindsight can overcome the present. History has proven time and time again you can start wars lets see if you stop one brewing in your own backyard. Logistics shouldn't be a problem it's only several hundred miles from you.

But alas you dare not step up lest Papa Putin gets mad and turns your oil off this winter. Can't have that now can you your great political leaders have proclaimed global warming will stop for the next ten years. So keep your heads in the sand the oil must flow!

Farking hypocrites the whole lot of ya.

Signed yours truly

David Sorenson
Ft. Monroe, VA

P.S. if ya'all grew a pair and stood up for something worth while besides your pitiful selfs I'd join ya.

[Platapus]

Rockstar,

how do you really feel? I am getting mixed signals from your post. :)

[Bruno Lotse]

According to Deputy Commander of the Russian Army Igor Konashenkov
as of Aug 16th Russian troops "borrowed" from Georgian army
65 tanks, 15 BMP and other armored vehicles.

44 tanks are in a mint condition. They will find their proper use in Russian arsenal.
The rest of Georgian armor is either obsolete or no use for Russian tank forces,
so those vehicles are being "recycled".
Russians made sure that all "recycled" vehicles would never ever contribute to global warming!

http://news.ntv.ru/138258/

American taxpayers, please, keep on supplying new armor to Russian forces!!!
The sooner - the better.

[Skybird]

(German)

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,druck-572526,00.html

This is telltaling on the confused and seriously distorted state of mind of Saakashvili. It sounds like the stupid babbling of a 5-year old being offered the choice between several things and no not knowing which one to pick. I always perceived him like this, so I doubt it is just an issue of lacking sleep. Trottel.

Meanwhile, the leader of the democratic opposition in Georgia - the one opposition that repeatedly got beaten up by Saakashvilli's police with iron fists and solid sticks when demonstrating against him: why is nobody complaining about that, for a change? - commented on the Georgian decision to go to a state of open war. German media, TV yesterday night and radio today, quoted him with calling the decison of Saakshvilli to attack the Russians a "crime against his own people" for which now the Georgian people have to bleed, and an "evidence of his intellectual incompetence".

Merkel and Medwedew parted without even shaking hands, it was said. I wouldn't shake her hand, too.



A perspective on the next conflict deriving from the Soviet legacy: Crimean peninsula.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7563623.stm

I personally think that the post-Soviet era of western dominance and Russian obedience is ending, and that we see the beginning of a new diplomatic age between Russia and the West that will be formed by a much more self-confident and stronger Russia. Something like the past 20 years, just with reversed roles, maybe. eventually it could end in a status of greater stability in the east, a stability that nevertheless is enforced and maintained with force. If so, this could eventually reshuffle the cards in Russia's losing confrontation with a.) Islam in the south, and b.) chionese pressure in the south-east. Which again means pressure imposed on both, which again indirectly could eventually effect the West's relations to them as well, may it be that both players need to reshift ressources and attention from the Western playground to the souther-russian one, or may it be demands both adress to the West to actively support them in their match against the Russians "else...".

We should be careful and hesitent to accept that demand. If somebody thinks under the impression of recent events the Russians are our greatest problem, I think he is wrong.

P.S. I think this is the politicians I mentioned above, this time in an exclusive interview with Der Spiegel. He reminds the West that Saakashvilli's rgime is a criminal regime not a bit democratic, that he supresses civil rights and that he supresses media and demonstrations with force, hindering their political activities and proclamation of their opinions in public by declaring states of emergency. He directly compares him to any authoritarian regime there is, and compares him to Putin.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,druck-572496,00.html

[Schroeder]

@Rockstar

First of all I would like to know what problem you have with females? Didn't you get enough love from you mother?

Second, why should we attack Russia? BOTH sides did their good share in starting this, and Georgia actually brought it on herself. So why attacking Russia (which would be suicidal by the way, just in case you have forgotten about the strengths of the Russian army;))?

Third, you say we only stand up for things worth while for ourselves. Does that mean all of Europe should withdraw their troops from Afghanistan, Iraq, Enduring Freedom etc.?
Why are we in Afghanistan?:hmm: I remember a certain country that was attacked by terrorists. This country is not part of Europe, yet we are there. There are no natural resources to be exploited (except for drugs) nor any other benefits from being there. We are only spending plenty of money and some lives for nothing in return. Strangely enough some citizens of that non European country are blaming us to do nothing that wouldn't give us any advantage...., odd isn't it?

[Bruno Lotse]

@Rockstar
Second, why should we attack Russia? BOTH sides did their good share in starting this, and Georgia actually brought it on herself. So why attacking Russia (which would be suicidal by the way, just in case you have forgotten about the strengths of the Russian army;))?

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/3682/motivator9444966js9.jpg

Let's better be friends:yep:

[Skybird]

Right-on-target-comment by Time magazine:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1832988,00.html

That author speaks my thoughts, and is agreeable factual.

[mrbeast]

Right-on-target-comment by Time magazine:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1832988,00.html

That author speaks my thoughts, and is agreeable factual.

Good article Skybird:up:

[Happy Times]

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/3682/motivator9444966js9.jpg

Let's better be friends:yep:

It must be hard for you to live in Canada? Here is some Russia Strong pics for you to ease the pain.:up:

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6017/32347169oz3.jpg

http://www.sheetudeep.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/putin.jpg

[Bruno Lotse]

Yeah, their leader looks like a MAN
and acts like a MAN. :up:

[Happy Times]

Yeah, their leader looks like a MAN
and acts like a MAN. :up:

How do you spell Y.M.C.A in cyrillic?:hmm:

[Bruno Lotse]

mirdruzhbazhvachka

[Happy Times]

mirdruzhbazhvachka


http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/files/images/Putin%20Kisses%20boy.jpg
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/07/07/putin_wideweb__470x351,0.jpg

[baggygreen]

hey, isnt the church getting sued a bit for that stuff recently??

maybe that kid can bankrupt russia with one court case!!:rotfl:

no offence to the churchies;)

[SUBMAN1]

I'm calm and quite frankly pretty darned happy.

It's just I see the usual bunch of self proclaimed intellectuals claiming the moral high ground chirping the same old song. After all the high and mighty talk about peace and happyness in eurogirlandia a freaking war starts in their own backyard AGAIN. Then the usual b.s. ensues "oh no Bush sends troops!" "What did Cheney have to do with it?" U.S. this, U.S. that, what a load of tripe. Critquing the whole affair from their armchairs they're farking useless and nothing more than a bunch of hypocritical female cry babies. Of course when that doesn't work eurogirls talk about statistics, numbers and or how economics are playing a part between the warring countries. How the Georgians could do this if... or Russia could but... If those eurotypes who frequent this board are any indication of what eurogirls are made of the reason I suppose eurogirl history oozes carnage, violence and war is they are just a bunch of hollow lifeless bastiges.

I am waiting to see the eurogirls stand up to the Russian bear. Come on girls take your heads out of the sand just once lets see you actually participate in world affairs. Lets see if all your 20/20 hindsight can overcome the present. History has proven time and time again you can start wars lets see if you stop one brewing in your own backyard. Logistics shouldn't be a problem it's only several hundred miles from you.

But alas you dare not step up lest Papa Putin gets mad and turns your oil off this winter. Can't have that now can you your great political leaders have proclaimed global warming will stop for the next ten years. So keep your heads in the sand the oil must flow!

Farking hypocrites the whole lot of ya.

Signed yours truly

David Sorenson
Ft. Monroe, VA

P.S. if ya'all grew a pair and stood up for something worth while besides your pitiful selfs I'd join ya.I wish you posted more! This is the best stuff I read here in quite some time! :up: It calls it like it is. Don't be surprised if some people get cranky over reality however.

-S

[joegrundman]

Careful Rockchick, you could be in trouble if Subman thinks he's identified reality in your words

and you know what, i've noticed before that some americans like to blame the "euroweenies" when they don't know what to do next.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Careful Rockchick, you could be in trouble if Subman thinks he's identified reality in your words

and you know what, i've noticed before that some americans like to blame the "euroweenies" when they don't know what to do next.

Well of course we do. When we can't seem to find solutions for our own problems we start blaming Europeans for their problems. Isn't our governmet wonderful? They even try to be like European govenrments. Isn't that cute?:D

[Foxtrot]

oh no! not again. My taxes to fund others' military :-?

[joegrundman]

Careful Rockchick, you could be in trouble if Subman thinks he's identified reality in your words

and you know what, i've noticed before that some americans like to blame the "euroweenies" when they don't know what to do next.
Well of course we do. When we can't seem to find solutions for our own problems we start blaming Europeans for their problems. Isn't our governmet wonderful? They even try to be like European govenrments. Isn't that cute?:D

lol, well i guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery:D

[Tchocky]

According to John McCain this is the first serious international crisis since the end of the Cold War.

I think this guy's age is open for consideration.

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/08/here_today_gone_tomorrow.php

Using the "history will tell.." cop-out as usual.

[Platapus]

I am sure that the families of the 4,000 + dead American men and women in IZ and AF, will appreciate that their sons, daughters, mothers, and fathers died in a non-serious international crisis. :nope:

[Tchocky]

And what about this ?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_lobbyist http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/cb15a056-ac87-485d-a64d-82989bdc948c.htm

:p

I wonder if Georgia is happy with what she bought.

[Dowly]

I'm calm and quite frankly pretty darned happy.

It's just I see the usual bunch of self proclaimed intellectuals claiming the moral high ground chirping the same old song. After all the high and mighty talk about peace and happyness in eurogirlandia a freaking war starts in their own backyard AGAIN. Then the usual b.s. ensues "oh no Bush sends troops!" "What did Cheney have to do with it?" U.S. this, U.S. that, what a load of tripe. Critquing the whole affair from their armchairs they're farking useless and nothing more than a bunch of hypocritical female cry babies. Of course when that doesn't work eurogirls talk about statistics, numbers and or how economics are playing a part between the warring countries. How the Georgians could do this if... or Russia could but... If those eurotypes who frequent this board are any indication of what eurogirls are made of the reason I suppose eurogirl history oozes carnage, violence and war is they are just a bunch of hollow lifeless bastiges.

I am waiting to see the eurogirls stand up to the Russian bear. Come on girls take your heads out of the sand just once lets see you actually participate in world affairs. Lets see if all your 20/20 hindsight can overcome the present. History has proven time and time again you can start wars lets see if you stop one brewing in your own backyard. Logistics shouldn't be a problem it's only several hundred miles from you.

But alas you dare not step up lest Papa Putin gets mad and turns your oil off this winter. Can't have that now can you your great political leaders have proclaimed global warming will stop for the next ten years. So keep your heads in the sand the oil must flow!

Farking hypocrites the whole lot of ya.

Signed yours truly

David Sorenson
Ft. Monroe, VA

P.S. if ya'all grew a pair and stood up for something worth while besides your pitiful selfs I'd join ya.

Sir, may I point out that the post above is quite a big pile of poo. :yep:

[Konovalov]

I'm glad then that smellernet hasn't been invented yet.

[Rockstar]

Well eruobabies? Russia invades Georgia it's right in your own backyard and the leaders of the european community rush here to Subsim.com chirrping their displeasure. What's the plan of operations today more articles from Der Speigel , Time or maybe some quotes from Nietchze and Mein kampf? Cut and paste articles alluding to some fault with 'W' and the U.S. What brilliance! What insight! I'm beginning to see the light I see the connection now. Go out and paste some more pictures as I'm sure your oil supplier checks this website everyday to get the pulse of the eurogirl community. I bet he is quaking in his boots this very moment and on the verge of surrender. I would have never guessed you euros could be such big brutes.

Just once I'd like to see something from euro pantywaists which actually amounted to something tangible something where you euros actually righted a wrong. Just once I'd like to see you stand up for something. Just once I'd love to see you step up to the plate. But as usual you have only proven once again, as you 'analyze' the world through rose colored glasses, you have no heart. In the end you're nothing more than a bunch of useless windbags filled with good intentions. Go plant your heads in the sand it will eventually be over as soon when Russia gets what it wants.

[AntEater]

Yeah, something tangible like invading Iraq or something as brilliant as the disaster management after Katrina. Or something like Guantanamo.
Or such a brilliant idea like privatizing war and letting companies like Blackwater get away with murder.
US politics in the last few years are not exactly awe inspiring.
Sure it feels good just to blow the brains out of everybody who stands in the way, but did that really solve any problems sofar?

Suddenly Subman seems like a liberal intellectual to me. Where do all these guys come from?
I somehow doubt Rockstar is real.
His posts sound so much like good satire they simply cannot be serious.
The style is just a tad too perfect.
I think he's just a guy with a great sense of humour
:)

[Schroeder]

Just once I'd like to see something from euro pantywaists which actually amounted to something tangible something where you euros actually righted a wrong. Just once I'd like to see you stand up for something. Just once I'd love to see you step up to the plate. If you were not totally ignorant of the world around you, you had seen all those things you desire over the last decades.

[geetrue]

We should send Georgia a few thousand of these:

http://www.valleyvet.com/swatches/17174_L_xxx_000.jpg



I hear the Russians have been a little slow to move on back to their former homeland.

[Randomizer]

Some perspectives on The First Casualty...

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2008/08/russia-georgia-disinformation.html

Good Hunting

[Skybird]

Some perspectives on The First Casualty...

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2008/08/russia-georgia-disinformation.html

Good Hunting

Neither Georgia nor Russia are entirely without fault in the current conflict. Georgia escalated the conflict by attacking the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali following clashes with separatists. Russia took it to a wholly different level with a massive military campaign designed to deny Georgia the ability to inflict further damage to South Ossetia. However, misreporting and deliberate distortion of the facts by the worldwide media has led to a convoluted picture of the events that have taken place. The fact that so many of the most commonly reported news items can be disassembled piece by piece with a few minutes of research places doubts on the credibility and objectivity of these establishments. When dealing with Russia after the cessation of hostilities, it would be wise to remember that there is no evidence to suggest a preplanned and orchestrated campaign to allow Russia to invade South Ossetia and Georgia. Painting Russia as a resurgent Evil Empire is a sign of unsubstantiated bias and nothing more. After all, Russia did warn Georgia that escalation was possible, and Saakashvili chose to give them the excuse needed to ensure the integrity of South Ossetia, perhaps permanently. Arguing that Russia's methods were overkill is one thing, accusing them of trying to take over the Caucasus is another thing entirely.

In this context, former chancellor Schroeder, a man with whom I only rarely - very rarely - agree, gave this general assessement of the conflict and the role Russia plays, and i must say this is one of the rare opportunities when I partially agree with him, though not on every detail. Of course he takes heavy fire here in Germany, for he is violating the politicians' unspoken consesus to judge the whole thing from a position of very one-sided anti-Russian bias:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-572686,00.html

[Digital_Trucker]

Interesting interview. Especially, IMHO, the last question.

SPIEGEL: Are you speaking in your capacity as former chancellor or as an employee of the Russian state-owned company Gazprom?
Schröder: SPIEGEL should not participate in the spreading of misinformation. I am not anyone's employee, but rather the chairman of the shareholders' committee of Nord Stream, a Dutch-German-Russian joint venture, whose sole purpose is to build a pipeline through the Baltic Sea that will make Germany's and Europe's gas supply significantly more secure.

[Skybird]

Yes. To say he is taking Flak over that here in germany would be an understatement.

[Happy Times]

Interesting interview. Especially, IMHO, the last question.

SPIEGEL: Are you speaking in your capacity as former chancellor or as an employee of the Russian state-owned company Gazprom?
Schröder: SPIEGEL should not participate in the spreading of misinformation. I am not anyone's employee, but rather the chairman of the shareholders' committee of Nord Stream, a Dutch-German-Russian joint venture, whose sole purpose is to build a pipeline through the Baltic Sea that will make Germany's and Europe's gas supply significantly more secure.


He is also a family friend of Putin, they have spent holidays together..

[Hartmann]

Perhaps U.S wants a strong army in georgia to cut in two the path between russia and iran in case of an attack. Very usefull in case of war for open a second front

[Skybird]

Interesting interview. Especially, IMHO, the last question.

SPIEGEL: Are you speaking in your capacity as former chancellor or as an employee of the Russian state-owned company Gazprom?
Schröder: SPIEGEL should not participate in the spreading of misinformation. I am not anyone's employee, but rather the chairman of the shareholders' committee of Nord Stream, a Dutch-German-Russian joint venture, whose sole purpose is to build a pipeline through the Baltic Sea that will make Germany's and Europe's gas supply significantly more secure.


He is also a family friend of Putin, they have spent holidays together..
And Putin even visited Bush on his ranch. If that is no argument.

[Happy Times]

Interesting interview. Especially, IMHO, the last question.

SPIEGEL: Are you speaking in your capacity as former chancellor or as an employee of the Russian state-owned company Gazprom?
Schröder: SPIEGEL should not participate in the spreading of misinformation. I am not anyone's employee, but rather the chairman of the shareholders' committee of Nord Stream, a Dutch-German-Russian joint venture, whose sole purpose is to build a pipeline through the Baltic Sea that will make Germany's and Europe's gas supply significantly more secure.


He is also a family friend of Putin, they have spent holidays together..
And Putin even visited Bush on his ranch. If that is no argument.

You cant deny Schröder is in Putins pocket?

Putin: the brutal despot who is dragging the West into a new Cold War

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-509177/Putin-brutal-despot-dragging-West-new-Cold-War.html

[Digital_Trucker]

The question I would have to ask about Schroeders visits to Putin is, did he do it while in office or when he was no longer in any official capacity? If a former Chancellor visits Putin and vacations with him, I would be highly suspect of the relationship. If Putin visits Bushes ranch while both are in office, there are many explanations.

[Happy Times]

The question I would have to ask about Schroeders visits to Putin is, did he do it while in office or when he was no longer in any official capacity?

Both, they are friends and business partners.

[Digital_Trucker]

That answers that one, thanks.