Biber midget submarine

[keltos01]

Epperlecques : Biber

One of three types, this one is 9 meters long. as for the human scale, I'm 6'2''.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/1580/biberrightfredzn6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/1580/biberrightfredzn6.2fbff260e0.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=170&i=biberrightfredzn6.jpg)
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/959/biberrightfredbt2.c5ef367fdc.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=390&i=biberrightfredbt2.jpg)http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/748/biberleftdk6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/748/biberleftdk6.f8354eb112.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=501&i=biberleftdk6.jpg)
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/442/biberrightbackcj3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/442/biberrightbackcj3.e225f336b1.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=212&i=biberrightbackcj3.jpg)
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7259/biberrightfredgv6.2f7e8a4c21.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=114&i=biberrightfredgv6.jpg)

I saw one last week on holidays in France, we were visiting the Epperleques V2 rocket site and it was there on display. Unfortunately this one has been gutted, so no interior shots possible :(

The guy told me they operated out of Etalle and that there were quite a few more scuttled in the harbor :lol:

Since I found this free 3d model of a Biber (not exactly the same but close) would it be interresting to mod one in game, for the Atlantic campaign and Mediterranean.

Keltos

[Task Force]

Hah Funny looking sub. Looks fun. Now let a distoryer attempt to sink that.:rotfl:

[keltos01]

I think I found the exact match for this model on a 3D site :
http://www.3dxtras.com/3dxtras-free-3d-models-details.asp?prodid=6704

http://www.3dxtras.com/upload/3540/pics/big_imgBIBER_01.jpg
You can download it if you have a model to trade it for...

and there is also this one (including 5 other sub models):

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4107/seehundpu1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4107/seehundpu1.55f97ff8c2.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=514&i=seehundpu1.jpg)

http://www.3dmodelfree.com/models//3247-2.htm#1

[AntEater]

So that's the mysterious Keltos live and in person...

I'd give the top priority to the second model you posted, the Seehund.
The Biber was the most lethal weapon of WW2. To its drivers, that is...:(
It could dive, but could not keep depth, so dives in the Biber were either very short or permanent. Usual modus operandi was to dive only to avoid obstacles like antisubmarine nets and remain on the surface the rest of the time.
However, the main problem of the Biber was its engine: An Opel Blitz truck engine. Not a diesel, but a gasoline engine, which gave off carbon monoxide that slowly poisoned the driver. I suppose most Biebers were either lost to carbon monoxide poisoning or to fatigued drivers getting lost.
Bibers sunk a single confirmed enemy vessel, the 4000 ton "Alan-a-Dale".

The Seehund, in contrary, was a real U-Boat that could dive almost as fast as the IXD2 in the current ATO expansions:rotfl:
It had a working snorkel, a good range and good underwater performance. Also it was supposedly immune to depth charging because it was so small it was rather tossed around by the explosions than demolished.
Problem was, the 2 man crew had to endure missions for days without getting any sleep or toilet, with no navigational aids constant danger. I suppose most of them were high on Pervitin (basically the Bayer version of today's Meth) or at least on "Schoka-Kola" caffeinated Chocolate.
Seehunde were quite successful, with about 100.000 tons of shipping sunk.
So if you make one of them drivable, use the Seehund.
Of course the Biber would have the distinct advantage of having to create only the conning tower view, while the Seehund has a distinct interior.
But AFAIK the only real damage a Biber ever did was:
- one accidentally shot a torpedo into a whole Flottilla of Bibers, setting off a chain reaction that destroyed over 30 Bibers and killed many drivers
- They (kind of) successfully torpedoed the Bridge of Nimwegen

But both are rather slow and I don't know wether SH4 would simulate shallow water ASW and operations, especially since the operation area is one usually left blank in SH3-4 campaigns, the dutch coast and the Channel.
Also, fire control was rudementary on both. Basically, the driver aimed by "Seaman's Eye" and let fly. The problem was that the torpedoes were modified to be lighter but slower, and were only around 20 knots, so anything but a stationary target is a matter of luck.
Another mission would be supply missions to cut off german garrisons on the Channel coast.

A good novel on that topic is "Der nasse Tod" (wet death) by Enrico Döring.
If not for a cheesy romance subplot, I would even rate it as the best german language sub novel in a long time.
Same author now wrote a nonfiction book "die Biberfahrer" (the Biber drivers) about the subject.

[keltos01]

here's a better pic (of the Biber not me ! :rotfl: ) but okay I just HAD TO show my face at least once !
I can't tell you how happy I was When I saw that Biber :) :) :)
keltos

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/9489/sanstitre3jh3.png

[AntEater]

That's a Seehund, not a Biber.
Biber = the one you saw in France, with the ultra-historic bright blue primer paint job
Seehund = the 3d model, to be seen in RL in Munich, W'Haven, Sinsheim, Bremerhaven and Brest, only to name a few.

Strangely, these german midgets are among the most common preserved WW2 german weapons.

[USS Sea Tiger]

That would be a fun ride for sure

[Madox58]

Watch out for those Biber 3d Models all over the net.
Nearly everyone of them are stolen from De Espona!

I bought thier model and compared them to the ones
commonly found.
It's the low poly version that your seeing.

To use them would violate copyright laws.
Even though I bought the model,
I can not use it for a Game model.

I've used thier model to assist in building my own version.
Since I don't have any good blueprints.

I've used the high poly model to build a new low poly model around.
The low and mid poly models from De Espona
seem to have been done with PolyTrans.
;)

That's one way to do it,
but not the best way.

My intension is to make a playable Biber.
I've already solved the external torpedo stuff.

[keltos01]

Watch out for those Biber 3d Models all over the net.
Nearly everyone of them are stolen from De Espona!

I bought thier model and compared them to the ones
commonly found.
It's the low poly version that your seeing.

To use them would violate copyright laws.
Even though I bought the model,
I can not use it for a Game model.

I've used thier model to assist in building my own version.
Since I don't have any good blueprints.

I've used the high poly model to build a new low poly model around.
The low and mid poly models from De Espona
seem to have been done with PolyTrans.
;)

That's one way to do it,
but not the best way.

My intension is to make a playable Biber.
I've already solved the external torpedo stuff.

could we ask them for a non-profit licence to use them ?

then again a camapign with the Biber would only work, as in RL, in the Channel, but might be interresting : attacking D-Day troopships etc..

Glad you have found a way to fire and make disappear the external torpedoes.

I'll look for Blueprints in my books, I still have other pictures I think.

keltos

[Madox58]

From the Buyers Agreement.

"Models or textures purchased from The3dStudio.com may be used in video games only if the buyer of the game cannot gain access to individual models or textures purchased from The3dStudio.com. Methods of safeguarding the models and textures include: A: Using a proprietary disc format such as Xbox 360, Playstation 3, etc. B: Using a proprietary model format. C: Using a proprietary and/or password protected database or resource file that stores the model data. D: Encrypting the model data."

Since we can easily extract the model?
I doubt permission would be granted?

The high poly model is quite nice though.
:yep:

[DarkFish]

How's the modeling going, privateer? I'm really looking forward to this one:yeah:
I was working on one myself, but my 3d modeling skills aren't exactly great...
anyway, this is how it currently looks:
http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc333/DF_3852/typ127.jpg
The 3d model is by far not good enough and I never got to texturing (apart from this test texture, just a plain color with a few decals;))
I hope you do a better job than me:up:

EDIT: oh, almost forgot: for blueprints/specifications/other info check out http://www.one35th.com/seehund/sh_index.html

[Sledgehammer427]

:D:D

[Kloef]

Nice pictures,she is an early Biber..is she there on permanent open display or do they take her inside in the winter season?,if not she will rot away in 10 years judging by her current state..

There was a Seehund found on the beach at Egmond(Netherlands) in 2002,it was just under the sand so they dug it up,the greatest thing is that the Captain Hans Wachsmuth survived the war and was interviewed about what happened.

He was welcomed by a British warship formation outside the shoreline.He dove to the bottom of the Northsea(at 30meters) and the British warships trew depth charges at him for 1,5 days..then suddenly the ships moved away but he thought he would be tricked,he waited for half an hour then he trimmed his boat to let her rise a bit and was again attacked by a massive depth charge attack so close by that everything fell from the racks,food and instruments..it went on and on and then suddenly the ships dissappeared..he sailed on for 1,5 days and suddenly he saw a mass of stone parralel to the Dutch coastline.They were deadly exhausted and tried to evade it but it was too late and the boat stranded near Egmond.

The torpedoes were still there,they were diffused in 2002.The boat itself is just a piece of rust but there are plans to restore her.

To give you an idea of their 'succes',they send out 18 boats on a particular mission,2returned.On another 'zehrsturung' mission they send out 10,none returned.They were stationed in Germany and Holland(IJmuiden).

Funny thing is 1000's of people ran over her anually on their way to the water to take a traditional new-years swim!

You can find the documentary here,its in Dutch and German but it has some great film material including the finding place and an interview with Hans Wachsmuth and alot of historical material..

http://geschiedenis.vpro.nl/programmas/2899536/afleveringen/5681778/

To me this is one of the most interesting and personal documentaries about midget submarines and their specific operations.The Seehund class suffered horrific losses,mainly to poor training and human error as well as other accidents and design flaws.Hans Wachsmuth claims that if you did everything right inside parameters there was little that could go wrong.

There is also a wiki about the type:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seehund

There is also one on display at the United States Naval Shipbuilding Museum in Quincy, Massachusetts

http://www.hnsa.org/ships/seehund.htm

[DarkFish]

wow...:o
great info on the vpro site, kloef:up:
I really think the seehund would be one great addition to sh4. IMO this sub definitely should be modded. So is there any progress on the model privateer? I know the model I made myself looks good from a distance, but trust me, from up close it's really not good enough.
If you (or anyone else interested) make a model I could do everything else if you like (importing, dat & upc editing etc.), cause I'd really like to sail this sub (and like modding of course, duh..):up:

[Kloef]

It would be great to sail around with one of them,a small campaign too perhaps?

As far as 3d designing,i dont know what software you use,could you give me a link?

[Madox58]

I'm working on the dat now.
I've started with an SH3 dat to get the model imported
and setup.

Once that is done and tested I'll run it through a
conversion program.
Then do the Normal and occlusion work.

The first thing to get perfect is the fireing of
the external torpedos.

I used a modified type IIa to test the idea.
It worked.

So now I'll do the Alpha model and dat
so I can FRAP the fireing of those torps.

And before anyone thinks I'm keeping the way to fire them
to myself?

I told Keltos1 and Mikhayl how I did it.
I just asked that they allow me to film it and post
the video before they go nuts with the idea.
:yeah:

[DarkFish]

good to hear:up:

In the meantime I commenced work on the biber. As of now the hull is largely finished so I`ll start working on the `conning tower'. I`ll import it into SH4 right afterwards as that should take me only about 30 minutes.
I hope to show you the first screenshots in a few days.

Oh and Kloef, you can use any 3d modeling software you like. Personally I use the freeware program misfit model 3d.
If you`d like to help out with modeling the biber, stuur maar een PM`etje:up:

[Madox58]

You doing the Biber or Seehund?
I have a bunch of pictures of the Biber interior also.
But if someone is near one?
More pictures would be fantastic.
:yep:

[DarkFish]

the biber, since you are doing the seehund, if I understand correctly.
As you can see in the picture I posted a few posts back I was close to having a seehund, but the model I made would have needed major remodeling so I kind of gave it up. The biber has a much simpler design and is thus much easier to model (I`m not really a 3d modeler myself, more like a dat file editing guy).

pictures of the biber interior (& exterior) would be highly appreciated as I only got one from wikipedia.

[Madox58]

No I have the Biber exterior model nearly completed.
I'm working on importing and setting it all up now.
I have run it in Game (SH3) with a placer Skin.
I've nearly finished the external torps stuff also.

I'll pack up the interior images I have and provide a link.

[Kloef]

Some more info:

It seems there were 3 different aft designs regarding propulsion,but i can only find pictures on 2 types,so we must assume this was the standard type mostly build..

The more i look at real pictures the more i see its compactness,its not as stretched as you might think,they look very sleek in the water,therefore your model isnt that bad,it needs some more smoothing and an interior,and there is another problem,the launching of torpedos and mission!

I found this site with alot of good pictures:

http://www.one35th.com/seehund/sh_museum.htm

[Madox58]

Launching the torpedos has already been solved.
:yep:

And scripting missions should be no worse then any other
mission work.

[Kloef]

I will do some research into the actual missions they performed,maybe i can find some interesting ones for the game.



Two types i found schematics for,Type 227 was build the most.You can also see the different aft designs,the type 127 has aft dive planes too.

But they look like 2 totally different designs with some simularities,i'm kinda puzzled about it and intrigued!The model is a mixed one..


http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/Kloef/type127-seehund.jpg



http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/Kloef/type227-seehund.jpg

[DarkFish]

No I have the Biber exterior model nearly completed.lol, me thinking all the time you were working on the seehund.
If the interior images you have show enough of the interior I could make a model out of it.
Two types i found schematics for,Type 227 was build the most.Are you sure? AFAIK the 127 was used most. one35th.com seems to agree:
Development of the closed cycle Seehund was carried out by Ingenioeurburo Gluckauf in Blankenburg and was given the designation Type 227. Contracts for prototypes were awarded to Germaniawerft in Kiel and to Schichau at Elbing and by May 1945 a contract for three operational model (U-5188 to U-5190) had been awarded to Germeniawerft. These models would have used the standard Seehund power plant converted to closed cycle operation on the grounds the Daimler-Benz engines were not available in any quantity. Tests showed that the Bussing engine could be successfully converted by the world ended before the craft could go into production.

[Madox58]

I'll pack up the pictures and post a link tonite.
Yard needs mowed and then some other files for someone else
need uploaded and a GWX DVD burned and readied for mailing.
:-?

[Kloef]

Are you sure? AFAIK the 127 was used most. one35th.com seems to agree:

You are right,my mistake.:-?

The Type XXVIIA was in fact the 'Hecht'.53 were build

Type XXVIIB was the final version.

Then came the Type XXVIIB5,that was the 'Seehund', 285 were build.

The types together are known as the type XXVII submarines.

[DarkFish]

1st few pics of the interior:

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc333/DF_3852/int1.jpg

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc333/DF_3852/int2.jpg

[Kloef]

:yeah:

Can't wait!

[DarkFish]

Instrument panel is now pretty much done.
http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc333/DF_3852/int3.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Biber_sub_controls.jpg/450px-Biber_sub_controls.jpg

[Kloef]

Very nice:cool:

What software do you use?

[Easy_Eight65]

Darkfish: 3-D modeling looks great --awesome job. I was at a hobby store the other day and came across a 1/72 scale Type XXVIIB made by a company called ICM...I thought "how cool it would be to have it added to GWX 3.0" Then I saw your post today -- is this the XXVII A or B?

Will it be playable in SH3 or SH4? Both?

Campaign or single missions only?

Let me know if you need a beta tester -- Likewise, Privateer: happy to do some sea trials and would love to see some of your dev screen shots if you have any.

Easy_Eight65

[DarkFish]

is this the XXVII A or B?
none of both, it's the biber interior. Privateer is making the exterior.
Will it be playable in SH3 or SH4? Both?for now only in SH4 I guess, but importing it into SH3 should be possible.

Campaign or single missions only?we'll see, we'll see....

Let me know if you need a beta testerso far it is far from being a beta. But should I need a beta tester I know where to find you:up:

[Fusek]

Do you need more reference material? If you do, pm me what you need and I will have a look at my personal library :DL

[Fusek]

I found this interesting image (linked for table breakage)

http://www.modelivery.com/shop/m/modelivery/img-lib/spd_20090522190000_b.jpg

I have found one real life photo of a Biber on the deck of what looks a type VII. If only I could get my scanner working :damn:


here it is; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/syneasthesia/bibertype7mother.jpg

[denis_469]

I found this interesting image (linked for table breakage)

http://www.modelivery.com/shop/m/modelivery/img-lib/spd_20090522190000_b.jpg

I have found one real life photo of a Biber on the deck of what looks a type VII. If only I could get my scanner working :damn:


here it is; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/syneasthesia/bibertype7mother.jpg

This is "U-295" in upper picture.

[USS Sea Tiger]

Hello all

any updates on the seahund?

[USS Sea Tiger]

still hoping this project can go at least a beta!

[GlobalExplorer]

I would also like to see this swimming coffin finished one day. Small craft add a lot of variety to the game. [A fan of the Type XXIII and seasoned Type II skipper.]

[Bunkerw0808]

I am desperate for these submarines!!!