Tough laws on illegal aliens seem to be working

[SUBMAN1]

Check this article:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/07/29/20080729mr-neighbor0730.html

-S

Latino neighborhood slowly disappearing in central Mesa


Family by family, business by business, a central Mesa neighborhood is vanishing.


Already struggling with blight, the Reed Park area near Gilbert and Broadway roads is taking another hit as undocumented immigrants leave the neighborhood, pressured by the state's employer-sanctions law, stricter immigration enforcement and a sagging economy....

[Frame57]

It aint workin here in Kalifornia, that is for damn sure!

[SUBMAN1]

It aint workin here in Kalifornia, that is for damn sure!Last I checked, you need the laws first! not ones that cater to them and give them special privilages! :D

In WA for example, its easy to go to the University of Washington if you are an illegal alien. The state even pays your way. Try being white, hard working, have a 3.9 GPA and a good upstanding citizen and guess what? You're screwed! :down: They come first, you second for any opening.

-S

[DeepIron]

"If every undocumented resident was removed in Mesa, it would take about 50 percent of my business," he said. Geez... if you build your business on a clientele that runs and hides every time an ICE vehicle shows up, the bottom will fall out eventually.

And so it has...

[SUBMAN1]

"If every undocumented resident was removed in Mesa, it would take about 50 percent of my business," he said. Geez... if you build your business on a clientele that runs and hides every time an ICE vehicle shows up, the bottom will fall out eventually.

And so it has...Old adage - no matter what you do, someone will not be happy. This leads in to - You can't please them all!

-S

[UnderseaLcpl]

I am inclined to believe that the economic situation is more likely for their migration rather than the laws.

Personally I am sad to see them go. I like Mexicans and they provide economic benefit to the country. Too bad liberal welfare policies essentially cancel out that benefit. I wish Mexicans, or anyone, for that matter, could come here to enjoy higher wages and hope for their future, I just don't support giving them one cent of taxpayer money until they go through the proper porcess of becoming citizens. (And that doesn't mean coming here and having a baby)

On the subject of California, well what can I say? A bastion of liberalism. Also has gone bankrupt and is horrendously expensive to live in. Despite it's glut of rich people who care so much about the poor, there are still people in poverty, and those rich people are still, curiously, fabulously wealthy.
If there has ever been a more clear cut example, so clearly juxtapositioned with more conservative areas (say, Texas), that is an infallible argument against leftist policy, this state is it.
California is probably the best argument ever against liberalism, and yet liberals simply shrug it off. It's like talking to a brick. A brick that wants you to pay for everything.
Of course, I am talking about economic liberalism here. As far as their values are concerned I could care less. Want gay marriage? Fine. Allow gays to ordain themselves as living gods for all I care, as long as they don't get tax breaks and aren't permitted guardianship of children (I'm still not totally sure about that one, links to studies about the effects of having gay parents on children or related information would be appreciated) I could not care less. Social conservative? Feel free to approach them and try to convert them. I can tell you right now that statistically speaking, it won't work, but as long as you leave them alone when they invariably ask you to, I have no problems with it. So they go to hell:roll: , what should a Christian care if they tried, right? An oft-cited Bible reference is the story of Sodom and Gommorah (sp?) Lot was a righteous person, he made no effort that I can recall to convert the populace ( may be wrong, but even if he did doesn't change a thing) God destroyed the cities with fire and brimstone but Lot and everyone in his family but his wife were saved. So by the same token that I would ask liberals not to vote for feel-good economic policies, I would also ask social conservatives not to vote for feel-good moral policies.


Most perturbatory, I seem to have totally derailed the thread, but I maintain that the spirit of it remains the same given the diviseivness of liberals and conservatives over immigration issues and the complete inability of Libertarians like myself to understand what is causing all the fuss. I don't think subman will take exception though, he thrives in discord like I do (right, ol' buddy ol'pal?)

[jumpy]

"If every undocumented resident was removed in Mesa, it would take about 50 percent of my business," he said. Geez... if you build your business on a clientele that runs and hides every time an ICE vehicle shows up, the bottom will fall out eventually.

And so it has...


I think that's a little unfair, considering the figures involved - I suspect because of the area the guy has his shop, he has no real choice but to sell to those 'undesirables' or face loosing 50% of his business or closing down. It's only good business sense to orientate your products/business to the community around you; after all, for example, you wouldn't target upmarket goods and shopping in a down and out area, now would you? Or sell polish goods in a chinese community area - It'd just be dumb.

This seems obvious to me. Blaming the shopkeeper for running his business in tune with the local community, basically saying 'serves you right for trading with those damn illegals' is not very progressive thinking. What other choice (apart from shutting up shop for good) does a trader have?

[Frame57]

There is no "undesirable immigrant" if they come here LEGALLY! Pay their taxes like the rest of us.

[FIREWALL]

When itcomes to Politicians make policy...

It's like letting the NUTS run the MADHOUSE. :roll:

[Frame57]

When itcomes to Politicians make policy...

It's like letting the NUTS run the MADHOUSE. :roll: Or the Rats running the Cheese factory!":up:

[Platapus]

When itcomes to Politicians make policy...

It's like letting the NUTS run the MADHOUSE. :roll:

Well who else should make policy then? :hmm:

[Jimbuna]

Give the immigrants a try.

It didn't work here in the UK...who knows what might happen at your end though :lol:

[Frame57]

When itcomes to Politicians make policy...

It's like letting the NUTS run the MADHOUSE. :roll:

Well who else should make policy then? :hmm: All Policies should be subject to popular vote.

[Platapus]

All Policies should be subject to popular vote.

Be careful what you ask for. You might want to read Alexis de Tocqueville's writings "Democracy in America" and what he calls Tyranny of the Majority.

Take a moment to imagine how dumb the average American is concerning government and policy. Then consider that almost 1/2 of the population is not that smart. :damn:

A popular vote can be a dangerous thing if the populace is uneducated about issues affecting policy.

Take a contemporary issue: Off shore Oil drilling

According to some polls the majority of the people want off shore drilling. But how many of these citizens really understand the oil industry, economy, and how one affects the other? I don't think that too many of the citizens who are in favour of off shore oil drilling have the slightest clue about the industry and what is involved in starting up a new rig.

As for economy, most people have a hard time balancing their check book.

You mention post Keynesianism or Thermoeconomics to the average American citizen and you will get the "glazed doughnut" look before they run away.

So why would I even care if a majority of uneducated, inexperienced, unaccountable people want off shore oil drilling?

I want to know what engineers, economists, environmentalists, and policy experts have to say about off shore oil drilling. There is a reason we have specialists. They know more about some stuff than the masses.

There is a reason why there are so few democracies in the world and how many representative governments flourish.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Take a moment to imagine how dumb the average American is concerning government and policy. Including many of our representatives.

Then consider that almost 1/2 of the population is not that smart. :damn:
And the other half is retarded.


A popular vote can be a dangerous thing if the populace is uneducated about issues affecting policy.
True, and the vast majority of the populace is educated by the state.


Take a contemporary issue: Off shore Oil drilling

According to some polls the majority of the people want off shore drilling. But how many of these citizens really understand the oil industry, economy, and how one affects the other? I don't think that too many of the citizens who are in favour of off shore oil drilling have the slightest clue about the industry and what is involved in starting up a new rig.

Generally I agree here but why does it matter if citizens know what is involved in setting up a new rig? They don't pay for it (excluding subsidies that shouldn't be there) and unless they invest in it why should they care if it succeeds or fails?



As for economy, most people have a hard time balancing their check book.
And yet, proportionally, very few of them have the debt-to -defecit- to income ratio their government has.

You mention post Keynesianism or Thermoeconomics to the average American citizen and you will get the "glazed doughnut" look before they run away.

Somehow I doubt it is only Americans who get a "glazed doughnut look" when these terms are mentioned. Failure to understand Keynesian economics is a shame whether one disagrees or agrees with JMK's theroies. Failure to understand thermoeconomics is because it is an overly comlicated and obtuse term for "you can't get something for nothing"
An intentional oversimplification but the basic principles are the same.

So why would I even care if a majority of uneducated, inexperienced, unaccountable people want off shore oil drilling?

I want to know what engineers, economists, environmentalists, and policy experts have to say about off shore oil drilling. There is a reason we have specialists. They know more about some stuff than the masses.

There is a reason why there are so few democracies in the world and how many representative governments flourish.

There are democracies? Where? I'm not aware of a single nation in the world in which soveriegnty is directly controlled by the people.

IMHO you are placing too much faith in so-called specialists. Most engineers are probably fairly qualified and understand what establishing a rig entails.

100% of economists have yet to agree on an economic theory that works, just like 100% of the public.

Policy experts, I don't know enough about to posit a valid argument. However, the nature of their trade seems remarkably similar to that of a consultant, and if you need to hire a consultant, you're already doing everything wrong anyway.


Environmentalists......:roll: I agree there is a need for them but many of them seem to be sensationalists and fearmongers. Many of today's "environmental" concerns have been touted before and came to nothing.

Of course, I'm no authority on domestic policy myself. I'm sure every ignorant person in the world shares the tendency to have conviction in one's own beliefs. Maybe I'm one of them.

[Frame57]

All Policies should be subject to popular vote.

Be careful what you ask for. You might want to read Alexis de Tocqueville's writings "Democracy in America" and what he calls Tyranny of the Majority.

Take a moment to imagine how dumb the average American is concerning government and policy. Then consider that almost 1/2 of the population is not that smart. :damn:

A popular vote can be a dangerous thing if the populace is uneducated about issues affecting policy.

Take a contemporary issue: Off shore Oil drilling

According to some polls the majority of the people want off shore drilling. But how many of these citizens really understand the oil industry, economy, and how one affects the other? I don't think that too many of the citizens who are in favour of off shore oil drilling have the slightest clue about the industry and what is involved in starting up a new rig.

As for economy, most people have a hard time balancing their check book.

You mention post Keynesianism or Thermoeconomics to the average American citizen and you will get the "glazed doughnut" look before they run away.

So why would I even care if a majority of uneducated, inexperienced, unaccountable people want off shore oil drilling?

I want to know what engineers, economists, environmentalists, and policy experts have to say about off shore oil drilling. There is a reason we have specialists. They know more about some stuff than the masses.

There is a reason why there are so few democracies in the world and how many representative governments flourish.So, then should we rule out all elections because half the populace is stupid?:88)

[Platapus]

So, then should we rule out all elections because half the populace is stupid?:88)


Not at all. I think we should elect representatives and empower them to make these decisions for us. We should be very careful in who we elect as our representative though. We need to start holding these representatives directly accountable for their decisions. There needs to be a reasonable "checks and balance" process and an independent review of all policies to make sure they are fair and reasonable.

But nah, my whacky idea probably would never catch on. :doh:

[Frame57]

We do elect officials who are 'supposed' to make decisions for us. This is why congress has an all time low approval rating. We vote on propositions and sometimes the 'court' over rules the people's will. We should take the court or rather the judges and keelhaul them, when they do these things. Certain issues I suppose could not be thrust upon the people. Our economy with the NAFTA disaster is one that should have been voted on. How many people do you think would have "yes" to having their jobs exported?:nope:

[Platapus]

Depends on how each side spun the propaganda.

Concerning NAFTA and other international trade agreements it is important to understand what the goal is.

1. A more favourable trade environment solely for the United States
2. A more equal trade environment for all the signatories.

It should be clear that the two are not even remotely the same.

The very concept of free trade means that some will win and some will lose. It is great when free trade operates in your favour. It sucks when it does not. But for every loser there is a winner or winners.

People need to understand that the United States won't always be the winner in such agreements.

So if the objective is that the environment should be favourable solely to the United States then the last thing we want is any type of free trade agreement. We want a restricted trade agreement with tariffs and other such controls.

Of course getting another country to sign such a one sided trade agreement these days might be a bit tough.

NAFTA was never intended to be solely good for the United States.

Just to give you an example of how public opinion can be illogical. Consider this

"Despite their support for NAFTA, the publics in Canada and Mexico have tended to see their own country as the loser in NAFTA, and to see the United States, their largest trading partner, as the winner, while the U.S. public has viewed Mexico as the winner and has been narrowly divided about whether the United States is a winner or loser in NAFTA."
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brlatinamericara/161.php?nid=&id=&pnt=161&lb=brla

Canadian citizens think that Canada is losing and the US is winning in NAFTA
Mexican citizens think that Mexico is losing and the US is winning in NAFTA
American citizens think that the US is losing and that Mexico and Canada are winning in NAFTA.

An interesting state to be in. Logically I would imagine that all three cancel each other out and that all three countries are equally hurt and benefited from NAFTA.

Like in any capitalistic system. What is good for the consumers may often be bad for the producers. Our citizen consumers benefit from NAFTA while our citizen producers don't.

How important is this is dependent on whether you are a consumer or a producer.

If you are a consumer and you have strong feelings against free trade, then use your discretion incumbent as a consumer and only buy products made in the USA.

You will pay more and may not have the quality or the selection, but that is the risk you take if you are against free trade. In essence, vote for or against NAFTA with your wallet. If enough citizens do not support NAFTA through their buying habits then NAFTA will start to fail.

The power rests with the consumer. Don't blame the government if you are buying stuff made in Canada or Mexico just because it is cheaper.

[Frame57]

I agree to an extent. I do purchase strictly made in the USA when I can. It is becoming more and more difficult to do so. I have noticed that a lot of electronic PCB componants are now made in Mexico. But the circuit boards have not been reduced in price for the consumer. My 20 dollar jeans that have always been about that price, are now made in Indonesia. Have the cost of the jeans gone down? No! The Automobile industry simply wanted to move plants across the border to keep their profit margin even higher. I do not think the people of Michigan would think for a minute NAFTA is working, nor is it a matter of spin doctors at work. Our Government needs to give employers a tax break and not a hinderance to motivate them to export American Jobs. These are self evident. our Government is supposed to run by the people and for the people. Today it is anything but that, and their conduct has border lined on high treason. The people will wake up someday and maybe have another American revolution.

[Iceman]

Check this article:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/07/29/20080729mr-neighbor0730.html

-S

Latino neighborhood slowly disappearing in central Mesa


Family by family, business by business, a central Mesa neighborhood is vanishing.


Already struggling with blight, the Reed Park area near Gilbert and Broadway roads is taking another hit as undocumented immigrants leave the neighborhood, pressured by the state's employer-sanctions law, stricter immigration enforcement and a sagging economy....


"It used to be a mostly Hispanic community. Now I have all kinds of different families," she said.

Funny how that goes...I grew up in this neighborhood right next to the park and 25years ago it was mostly a normal neighborhood....until illegals swarmed to Mesa....Sherriff Joe does a fine job keeping people on they're toes...It was never a Latino neighborhood....amazing.