Mines and minelaying with your U-boat

[Dietrich]

I've been doing some work on the Type-VIID and XB boats, trying to work out ways of getting mines to work from a human controlled U-boat. From what I can tell from previous threads, there seem to be two lines of thoughts on this.

One is to re-work the BOLD decoy system to create mines. This is interesting in that it doesn't use up torpedo slots. However, I am unable to find any information about this, nor anyone who has attempted it. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

The second way, is to replace one of the torpedo types with a naval mine. Ideally, one would replace either the T-XI or T-VII, as they were not used historically (and I'm trying to keep things historical, as far as possible).

However, I do know that there is at least one mod which does something similar... namely to convert a T-II torpedo into a mine.

It is available from here... http://www.ebort2.co.uk/

However, I've had found mixed reports. Some claim that the mines don't work, some say they don't go off, some say that ships deftly avoid them.

I've trying to get this mod to work with my own GWX 2.1 installation, and have had little success. I can certainly install the files and get the game running. I can even launch the torpedoes and they come out of the tubes and then sit there stationary (like a mine should). However, they still look like torpedoes.

I've also tried running into them with my U-boat, but they fail to detonate (probably because they have not run the minumum 350m to arm). While these things are probably expected, I am puzzled by the torpedo model being used, rather than the mine model.

On inspection with Silent 3ditor, I can see this...

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3672/mines1hk9.jpg

According to this, every torpedo except T-I, FAT-II and LUT-I should be mines.

I've double checked all the files and I am convinced I've installed everything correctly.

Has anyone else managed to get mines to work?

Any help or suggestions for my problem?

Many thanks!

[Vader 1]

I think (key word) the problem might lie in the proxisiminal value of the torpedo you are using. ie the games gives a value to the "space" around the object invade this area and boom.The trick might lie in modding the "space" to reflect a much larger magnetic area. ps I have no hex experience to prove this but did extensive research in SH2 to recreate what you are trying and at the end was limited by the "space" around the object..

Good luck

Vader

[Tomi_099]

:rock: Dietrich (http://207.44.214.111/subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=226341) you are my Campion !!!!:up: Dietrich...Dietrich..Dietrich..Dietrich..!!!!

[Tomi_099]

BOLD decoy system to create mines mit DivingDuck Dedris verbinden (auftauchen der Schwimmenden Minenen ) und dan fehlt nur die EXPlosion bei berührung
…………………..

BOLD decoy system to create mines with DivingDuck Dedris connect ( with (look) the swimming Minenen ) and then only the explosion is missing during contact:hmm:

[Wolfehunter]

If you do use the bolt try altering Bolt 5 last one in the line of advancements. You only get it in the end of the war so its no biggy to loose that one.

Tomi is right. It was his idea to get this going.

Goodluck Dietrich and thanks you for trying it.:rock:

[Wolfehunter]

Hmmm I have to go looking for it. I forgot where it was.. Maybe in sensor or guns.... Not sure yet.:hmm:

Update its sensor.dat file.

[FIREWALL]

IIRC Sergbutto or Rubini made a mine laying mod for SH3 some years back that used stern tubes.

I might have it in my burned cd files. Will post if I can find it.

Check their two sites or pm them. :yep:

[USS Sea Tiger]

I have had a little success.

No, not in makin gthe mine torps, but in torps as mines.

I set their speed to.25, set to magnetic (contact is a joke and never worked yet) a depth greater than my own hull (so they shoot out the bottom center mine chutes) , and let them go one at a time.

I reset the magnetic mine range as suggested,

and thay them about 12000 yards in front of a convoy.


the results were interesting, 1 damaged 1 sunk in a 18 mine string.

[u-168]

During world war 2 i think this is true but there was a u-boat that could lay mines out of like down facing torpedo tubes.I think they held about 5 mines in one tube it would be good if we could have that u-boat on the game to let the mines out that way:up:i cannot find a link to show you this sub but it was an the discovery channel and i cant find it now lol.

[FIREWALL]

IIRC Sergbutto or Rubini made a mine laying mod for SH3 some years back that used stern tubes.

I might have it in my burned cd files. Will post if I can find it.

Check their two sites or pm them. :yep:


bump

[FIREWALL]

Will it go "BOOM" if anything hits it ? :D

[Alex]

Best of luck, Mr Dietrich. :know:

[Madox58]

1st off?

Create a new dat, sim, and zone file to work with.
Call it test.dat or whatever.
Make sure it's cloned properly and delete the stuff you don't need.
Then rename EVERYTHING!
Even the TGA files!!
That way you do not mess with standard SH3 stuff.

DO NOT USE the PROPPELER stuff!
That's why you see rotation!!!

You should use the main body of the SH_Torp and delete all the other stuff.
(in the new files of course!!)

NEVER use a prop object unless you delete the prop in the sim file!!
Unless you want it to rotate.

[Sledgehammer427]

i was going to say, is there a type XB ready?

[Task Force]

This looks veary good.:D This was one of the big things this game was missing.

[Letum]

Excelent progress. Good luck getting the rest done.

[={FH}=Paddy]

in Wolf Pack by Gordon Williamson on page 78 there are descriptions of German mines and their opperating depths - The SM(Schachtmine)A is quoted as "...it could be used in waters up to 250meters depth".

also in Subs and Submariners by Arch Whitehouse, a reference is made that, "...German moored mines could be laid at any depth up to six hundered feet and more".
(Six hundered feet being aprox 180m)


haven't read the below link but....?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine

[emaluzer]

Maybe this was already asked, how far can you go from the mines and have them still work. For example could I lay them in the english channel and head out to the ocean and still sink a ship or does it only work in the visual range of my sub?

Is it possible to sink yourself hitting one of your own mines?

Edit: I saw on the first page the range is aobut 20km, so basically you would set them in front of a convoy and hope they run into them.

[tater]

Awesome work.

I'm a PTO guy, but early in the war such mining missions were common for USN boats due to torpedo shortages. I did a far less complex version of this for SH4 (I didn't even change the torpedo I modded as it was a proof of concept), and the biggest stumbling block from a campaign standpoint was that in RL, USN boats carried about 3 mines per torpedo they did not take. I tried to change the volume the mine-torpedoes took up, but that gave me a CTD.

I assume that SH3 is as limited mission-wise as SH4 is, so the mission might be as simple as a decent renown for staying in the area to be mined, or perhaps staying in one area, then another and another along a path that HQ wants mined. (again, I don't know sh3 at all, but to do a mission, you'd have to get the assignment, but before you put to sea hit the "back" button, go to the office, and dump all your aft fish for mines, then put out to sea. Honor system, but anyone that wants to cheat has other mods for that, anyway :)

Very nicely done, though, I await your new discoveries. :up:

tater

[bigboywooly]

With the mini tweaker it was possible to up the amount of fish onboard to quite a few
Been so long since it was used cant remember the totals but there is a limit beyond which SH3 goes a lil loopy
As no one uses the minitweaker no more there are bound to be other ways to increase the internal loadout
The only problem I can see with port mining is nothing is spawned in the players range - 20-25km so nothing will spawn from inside a port and move out while you are in range of the torpedos
Kudos on getting it working as its a long overdue mod even for the TM type mines
With the VIID the SM type can be used too

Have you tried adding more torp tubes but change the axis so they face up ? for the 7D
Be interesting

[TorpedoMo]

You had any success in proceeding this mod? :up::up:

[Vermin]

So if you set the arming distance to "0", will it detonate as soon as it is laid?

What about if the arming distance is say 1m but the the mine moves so slowly it still takes 10-15 minutes to get there?

Otherwise, can the arming distance be reduced to the absolute minimum so with a 10-15 minute arming period, the speed of the mine can still be set as close to 0 as possible?

For single player especially, I would not mind waiting a bit longer for the mines to arm.

Would TMB ground mines be easier to mod? 1) There is no cable. 2) If you can make them hit the bottom and stop but not detonate (maybe possible with magnetic or acoustic detonators?) there is no problem with drift and minelaying in very shallow water/harbours becomes an option.

Just thoughts. Great work so far and I look forward to whatever comes out!

Regards

Vermin

[TorpedoMo]

Hey!

So if you set the arming distance to "0", will it detonate as soon as it is laid?

As i know, the arming distance can not be changed. Hardcoded. Also that was my idea when I tried to get a playable mine. And if the mine should explode by magnet, it would detonate immediately - or can input a time delay - which I guess also is not possible.

I think the option you mentioned that the mine travels lets say 1m and takes 15min to make the distance woulb de great. So, maybe anyone else can manage to reduce the min. arming distance.

Would TMB ground mines be easier to mod? 1) There is no cable. 2) If you can make them hit the bottom and stop but not detonate (maybe possible with magnetic or acoustic detonators?) there is no problem with drift and minelaying in very shallow water/harbours becomes an option.

Thats the other option which should be tried. Keep the arming distance, set the speed to value that the mine needs about 15mins to travel and arms after
completing the distance, sinks to ground, KEEPS functional and detonates by magnet.
Its not perfect, but you even could lay functional mines. And If you know it travels
a 300m metres distance you have to make a measurement on your chart so you know where it drops down. no problem.

[TorpedoMo]

Nice to hear dietrich

What you mean with drift speed? The speed the mine travels the arming distance?

Read a post today about a working mining mod in SH4.

Another thing I got is that the game don't counts sunk ships by a player mine.
So if we have a mining mod for SH3, you have to stay at place to see what ships your mines sink.

Anyway. First I hope it is someday at least possible.

I you need any help I'm glad to assist you.

Cheers

[tater]

What distance do torpedoes eject to when fired?

Seems liek the arming distance can be dropped to near zero, mine speed 0.001, and the laying sub will simply need to have steerageway to escape.

[Vermin]

The TMB:

Here is another though... set the max range of the "torpedo" to 400m

"Fire" from the tubes with a miniscule velocity (you use o.6 kn).

The torpedoe runs out of "steam" after 400m, after about 15+ minutes of travel, fully armed and then sinks at the normal sink rate to the bottom (witch is probably about 25m max for a ground mine).

The torpedoe then sits on the bottom until it is detonated by a passing ship.

Or does the torpedo just explode (even with an influence fuse) or disappear when it hits the seabed?

Still hoping!

Regards

Vermin

[tater]

At the max range, they sink, then (in SH4, anyway) detonate.

In my SH4 experiments with mines I set the max range very very far, and the speed to 0.001, removed the wake effects, etc.

[tater]

Open the torpedo sim file with s3d and change the arming distance from 300m to whatever you like. Set it to 5m and it will be armed by the ejection alone.

open the dat, find the torpedo. open the sim, find amun_AcousticTorpedo that has the "parent ID" that matches the fish in the dat you want.

Open that up. IN the property tree, right click the top and "expand all."

select arming distance, and change it below.

[TorpedoMo]

Wow, that sounds great!

Now we need to know how to make the torpedo stay at the spot after the arming distance and keeps armed so he can detonate.

Currently he sinks, but what happens when he hits the seabed?

[Weiss Pinguin]

I normal torpedoes detonate when they hit the bottom. :hmm:

[tater]

Wow, that sounds great!

Now we need to know how to make the torpedo stay at the spot after the arming distance and keeps armed so he can detonate.

Currently he sinks, but what happens when he hits the seabed?

Huh? Again, I can only speak for SH4, but set the range of the fish at something it will never reach, like 99,999 meters, and a speed of 0.001. It will simply hang there at the set-depth (moving at 0.001 knots (0.0018 kph) ;) ). I set mine to have a magnetic pistol with a radius of a couple meters so the front of the torpedo did not need to hit the target.

[Vermin]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my suggestions, I'm sure you have considred them all before! Since my modding is limited to changing the odd text file I have endless appreciation for what you are trying to do!

If Tater's ideas can be used we will have a real winner! You really have to admire the general helpfulness of the subsinm community. :rock:
:help:

Couldn't resist this!

[tater]

Dietrich, the file in SH4 HAS THE SAME PARENT ID as your screenshot.

I changed the arming distance to 10m, here's the file. If it crashes it crashes, if it doesn't...

Actually, look at it first to make sure it has not added any new fish, so that all the IDs point to the right parents in the dat.

http://files.filefront.com/Torpedorar/;12972259;/fileinfo.html

[tater]

Hey, the arming distance in under the Pistol information, I don't see that in your SS.

Does SH3 have any fish with magnetic pistols?

[Awful Smutje]

It does have magnetic pistols. This is why your torpedos detonate on halfway to the target in storm... :-?

[tater]

Yes, but are the values in the sim, or is it somehow hard-coded.

The fact that the SH4 sim has the same ID certainly says that the german stuff was simply dropped in from SH3, though.

[TorpedoMo]

You Guys had any succes in changing the torpedo.sim?

I will try also tomorrow, got me tater's torpedofile.

There must be a way...

[tater]

I changed it and linked the file, but I don't own sh3, so I have no way of testing.

[TorpedoMo]

Using tater's torpedo.sim sh chrashes at start. No way....

And the few values changable in the SHIII torpedo.sim are much too less to "imitate" a mine.
Another idea was to use a torpedo whith a search pattern. After reaching the arming distance, the torp moves on with the minimum speed and follows the pattern which we could (can we?) definite as a really small square. I don't know I you can add more "legs", but if you could let the torp move endless in a square by maximum the total range.

For the long range the torps needs a very long time with the min. speed, so the "mine" stays effective but don't moves from the spot.

[tater]

Ah, was worth a shot :)

Again, I don't have sh3, so I had no idea, I threw it at the wall to see if it would stick :)

[bigboywooly]

Using tater's torpedo.sim sh chrashes at start. No way....

And the few values changable in the SHIII torpedo.sim are much too less to "imitate" a mine.
Another idea was to use a torpedo whith a search pattern. After reaching the arming distance, the torp moves on with the minimum speed and follows the pattern which we could (can we?) definite as a really small square. I don't know I you can add more "legs", but if you could let the torp move endless in a square by maximum the total range.

For the long range the torps needs a very long time with the min. speed, so the "mine" stays effective but don't moves from the spot.

You mean like the FAT ladder torps ?
I think legs for those are adjustable - are via TDC so must be in a file somewhere
IIRC the steam ones have a range of 12 km
At a real slow speed would take a real long time to go 12km
Would give the mine a fairly long life
Not sure how long though

[tater]

The trick is not so much the time they persist, it's getting them to arm. You can set the fish to swim VERY slowly.

Frankly, arming fast is only a concern if you care about getting credit for the kill, and in RL, you simply would not (how would they know?). The goal is really being forced to have to do a thankless mission, unsuited to the true nature of your warship :)