American Battleships

[Maj. T J King Kong]

**************CONFIDENTIAL EYES ONLY**************
U.S/ PACCOM /BB 39
SH4/ 1.4
Why is it that American battleships dont engage with their mainguns @ horizon level or (LOS,line of site)? Pretty irritating to watch an IOWA class not shoot main guns until 3 miles, when they have a very accurate range of 23 miles. Another thing, im trying to find the MOST historically accurate enagements, fleets sizes ect. for the Battle off Samar (Leyte), I would love to see the actual TASK FORCE 16/17 in all there glory against Japans DIV #3 battlegroup. Thanks all! For me, accuracy is very important for the full flavour of what really took place. Im new with the ADD ON MODS. Any certain mods and how to achieve success for them to work would be a bonus, ive already tried, no grain MOD and WW2 radio MOD, neither of which i was able to get working.

"Radio Officer, float the buoy"

[Orion2012]

I personnally like TMO+RSRD +PE3 (shearly cosmetic)

With TMO you'll see a major overhaul of the game, including a different graphical layout and such.

RSRD is what the campaign should have been all along. It gets rid of the HUGE amounts of aircraft and random convoys for a more historical apporach.

If you have problems installing the mods, they both have dedicated forums, where you'll find the help you need.

As far as the IOWA not enagaging until 3 miles....I'm not sure, but I have faith someone far wiser then I will come along and provide you with an answer.

Good Hunting :ping:

[peabody]

I would think that because it is a sub game, any surface battle they are putting the ships close enough for you to see the action. And the range can be changed. And you probably know better than I do, but were they accurate at 23 miles in WWII? I just made the Iowa playable and you can just barely make out the ship with the binoculars when you are close enough to fire.

Peabody

[Sailor Steve]

They like to assume they would be accurate at that range. The known facts are these: the longest range hit anybody ever made with naval guns at sea was about 26,000 yards, or 13 nautical miles. Hood vs Bismarck and Rodney and King George V vs Bismarck were both opened at 21,000 yards, or 10.5 miles, and they got closer before hits were scored.

Could Iowa have hit Yamato at her 43,000-yard (21.5 mile) maximum range? Yes, anybody can get lucky. Would they have if they had engaged? Probably not consistently enough to be called "very accurate".

[Diopos]

I think the Iowa class carried 2-3 small seaplanes. So in engagments in extreme ranges they would be used in the forward fire observation role. I don't know if they were ever used in an actual naval engagment though. And to be honest I'm not sure the USA BBs saw a lot of ship tp ship engagments but I will leave this the more knowledgeable.
BTW the original question was one of minimum rather tham maximum range.
I do not know which was the minimum (negative) inclination of their main guns, or if there were operational procedures that dictated a need for a certain minimum range. What I know (ok assume) is that no admiralty would accept the possibility of an enemy surface vessel being able to operate in close range to a BB!!!:lol:

[Hylander_1314]

Haven't seen much as far as ship to ship action with the BBs, but they sure did a lot of island pounding!

[JREX53]

I think the Iowa class carried 2-3 small seaplanes. So in engagments in extreme ranges they would be used in the forward fire observation role. I don't know if they were ever used in an actual naval engagment though. And to be honest I'm not sure the USA BBs saw a lot of ship tp ship engagments but I will leave this the more knowledgeable.
BTW the original question was one of minimum rather tham maximum range.
I do not know which was the minimum (negative) inclination of their main guns, or if there were operational procedures that dictated a need for a certain minimum range. What I know (ok assume) is that no admiralty would accept the possibility of an enemy surface vessel being able to operate in close range to a BB!!!:lol:

How about Guadacanal.

[thasaint]

Most significantly, however, Washington soon engaged Kirishima in the first head-to-head confrontation of battleships in the Pacific War. In seven minutes, tracking by radar, Washington fired 75 rounds of 16 inch and 107 rounds of five-inch shells at ranges from 8,400 to 12,650 yards, scoring at least nine hits with her main 16" battery, and about 40 with her five-inchers, silencing the enemy Kirishima in short order and setting her on fire. Subsequently, Washington's five-inch batteries went to work on other targets spotted by her radar electronics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Washington_(BB-56)

keep in mind it was at night, says in the article she started firing at 18,000 yards

[Te Kaha]

As far as I know, all 4 Iowa Class battleships never engaged Japanese battleships, and were used primarily to escort the carriers.

At Guadalcanal, there was BB Washington which engaged the Kirishima, firing 75 rounds at ranges from 8,400 yds to 12,650 yds, scoring a minmum of 9 hits, setting Kirishima on fire but not sinking her. BB South Dakota was also part of the same battle group, receiving a couple hits.

At Leyte, Surigao Strait, there were the old pre-WW II battleships which engaged Japanese battleships.

See Wikipedia or better informed naval sites for infos.

[Te Kaha]

Thasaint has been faster! :D

[Sailor Steve]

Wiki's article on the battle itself says that Washington didn't open fire until 9000 yards, and first illuminated Kirishima with searchlights.

The Japanese ships continued to concentrate their fire on South Dakota and none detected Washington approaching to within 9,000 yards (8 km). Washington was tracking a large target (Kirishima) for some time but refrained from firing since there was a chance it could be South Dakota. Washington had not been able to track South Dakota’s movements because she was in a blind spot in the Washington’s radar and Lee could not raise her on the radio to confirm her position. When the Japanese illuminated and fired on South Dakota, all doubts were removed as to which ships were friend or foe. From this close range, Washington opened fire and quickly hit Kirishima with at least nine main battery shells and almost forty secondary ones, causing heavy damage and setting her aflame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Battle_of_Guadalcanal

Nine hits out of 75 shells fired is only 9%, and that seems to be about average for WW2 naval artillery fire from that range.

As for using seaplanes, remote spotting can be good or bad. According to Dudley Pope's excellent account of the Battle of the River Plate, HMS Ajax launched a Fairey Seafox floatplane to spot her shots against Graf Spee. The spotter fairly consistently confused Ajax's splashes with those of sister ship HMNZS Achilles, making the fire worse rather than better. While this would be a help in a single-ship combat at long range, it would not guarantee better shell spreads.

But I agree with peabody: it is a sub game, and surface engagements are there for us to see and take part in, not to be expected to recreate historical battles exactly.

[Maj. T J King Kong]

I am new to this forum and not what someone would call a computer "junky". Im loving what I "SEA" so anything you guys advise for improvement to this subsim (which isnt much needed) would be great.
Heres the situation: Im new to this game, I played 688i for more modern sub-warfare for 11 years and I love that game VERY much. The enviroments in SH4 are the most amazing I have ever seen in a SIM. What I would like to accomplish is historically accurate fleets and regions with an injection of "hyothetical instances" of what IF USA was able to imploy the weapons that would have broken the back of the Imperial Navy. EXAMPLE: It was known throughout WW2 in the Pacific that Adm. Halsey wanted to split his BB Task forces to assault the enemy on every lane in the sea. The problem was, the U.S. Battleships were the slowest of the fleet, so in saying, your Battlegroup is only as fast as your slowest ship. Made it VERY difficult for these ships to "patrol" lanes without supply ports close to action area. I wanted to make a new "hypothetical" (Taskforce/ USTF 2008).
ACTION AREA: Leyte Gulf 10/1944
STRATEGIC VALUE: The Leyte operation was to be the crucial battle of the war in the Pacific. On its outcome would depend the fate of the Philippines and the future course of the war against Japan. Located in the heart of the archipelago, Leyte was the focal point where the Southwest Pacific forces of General MacArthur were to converge with the Central Pacific forces of Admiral Nimitz in a mighty assault to wrest the Philippines from the hands of the enemy.With Leyte under General MacArthur's control, the other islands would be within effective striking distance of his ground and air forces. Leyte was to be the anvil against which he would hammer the Japanese into submission in the central Philippines, the springboard from which he would proceed to the conquest of Luzon for the final attack against Japan itself. Military necessity demanded that the Allies achieve a decisive victory on Leyte. General MacArthur and Admiral Nimitz were committed to employ the maximum resources at their command.
FORCES (Historically accurate):
JAPAN: Northern Force (Ozawa)4 Carriers,2 Battleship-Carriers,3 Cruisers, 8 Destroyers; Shima Force (Shima)3 Cruisers,7 Destroyers,Central Force (Kurita)5 Battleships,12 Cruisers,15 Destroyers;Southern Force (Nishimura)2 Battleships,1 Cruiser,4 Destroyers

U.S.A.: Northern Force (Halsey/3rd Fleet)6 Battleships, 16 Carriers,15 Cruisers,58 Destoyers;Southern Force (Kinkaid/7th Fleet) 6 Battleships,18 Carriers,11 Cruisers,36 Destoyers
NOTICE NO SUBS!
In 1944, JAPANS position was both critical and desperate, hence; sending the Battleship Yamato into action against a far more superior force. (Battle Off Samar, SH4 stock mission) Although its fun, its a turd of for understanding what really happened, On top of it, having a chance to change history with history.
(hypothetical-USTF 2008;6 Battle ships with the Arizona,Oklahoma included,16 Cruisers,22 Destoyers, this would be the "pincer" maneuver from the north east of Samar Island to the west to trap the wounded Japanese Nothern Force (Ozawa) after just having an engagement against 3rd Fleet/Halsey) and having to retreat back to the north.
Just a side thought to this , roll back to 12/7/1941, what if...The U.S. had the A/C carriers in port and all the battleships were out to sea, this would have turned out to be a very different war thats for sure,hehe. Im pretty sure there would have been tasked huge BB groups twice the size they had and sailed them straight into Toyko Harbour in summer of 1942!
So back to the SIM: Im trying to find out first IF we can get these battleships to start engaging at the 15,000 yard ranges for IOWA class and 18,000 for the Yamato. Is this possible in a mod and if so, please put into an idiot proof way of how to so as i dont get lost in "8804ferkfjb34fbn" stuff.....If I cant get my BB's to perform like they are supposed to, it makes it hard to justify even trying to make a hypthetical add on battlegroup to this mission,adding my sub would only be observation point to watch the action unfold. Thanks alot for your time guys, you are all very fun to chat with. A wealth of information!

[Raptor1]

In 1944, JAPANS position was both critical and desperate, hence; sending the Battleship Yamato into action against a far more superior force. (Battle Off Samar, SH4 stock mission) Although its fun, its a turd of for understanding what really happened, On top of it, having a chance to change history with history.
(hypothetical-USTF 2008;6 Battle ships with the Arizona,Oklahoma included,16 Cruisers,22 Destoyers, this would be the "pincer" maneuver from the north east of Samar Island to the west to trap the wounded Japanese Nothern Force (Ozawa) after just having an engagement against 3rd Fleet/Halsey) and having to retreat back to the north.
Just a side thought to this , roll back to 12/7/1941, what if...The U.S. had the A/C carriers in port and all the battleships were out to sea, this would have turned out to be a very different war thats for sure,hehe. Im pretty sure there would have been tasked huge BB groups twice the size they had and sailed them straight into Toyko Harbour in summer of 1942!

Halsey's Third Fleet was by no means "far superior" to Kurita's Center Force, I do believe that had Halsey remained at the San Bernardino strait the American Third Fleet could've been seriously damaged even as much as to make it a pyrrhic victory or even a tactical Japanese victory

I also doubt the American's would make a move to trap the Japanese fleet, they were never looking for a "decisive battle" and taking the Philippines would render the IJN useless anyway (As seen later in the war)

Oh, and if American Battleships woud've been sent anywhere near Japan in 1942 they would be slaughtered by land-based air power

Anyway, IIRC there's a fix somewhere that makes surface ships attack at much longer ranges, have to look

[Maj. T J King Kong]

Halsey's Third Fleet was by no means "far superior" to Kurita's Center Force, I do believe that had Halsey remained at the San Bernardino strait the American Third Fleet could've been seriously damaged even as much as to make it a pyrrhic victory or even a tactical Japanese victory

I also doubt the American's would make a move to trap the Japanese fleet, they were never looking for a "decisive battle" and taking the Philippines would render the IJN useless anyway (As seen later in the war)

Oh, and if American Battleships woud've been sent anywhere near Japan in 1942 they would be slaughtered by land-based air power

Anyway, IIRC there's a fix somewhere that makes surface ships attack at much longer ranges, have to look

At Leyte General MacArthur was completely dependent on forces not under his control to protect his landing operation. Should the naval covering forces allow either of the powerful advancing Japanese thrusts to penetrate into Leyte Gulf , the whole Philippine invasion would be placed in the gravest jeopardy. It was imperative, therefore, that every approach to the Gulf be adequately guarded at all times and that an enemy debouchment via Surigao and. San Bernardino Straits be blocked with adequate Allied naval strength. Now what I'm saying is that a hyothetical task force to "clean-up" a retreating and beaten up Japanese Northern Force, which in actuality was able to escape, with severe losses, until they run into my force just beyond the horizon.

What is IIRC,where is it located? please give me a break, i dont even know how to make a quote.

[Raptor1]

IIRC = If I recall correctly

I'll try to find it, wait a minute

EDIT: Okay, I can't find it, but try opening up the Sh 4 Directory\Data\Cfg\Sim.cfg file with notepad and increasing the value next to 'Max fire range' (Under [AI Cannons]), not sure if it would work but I hope

[peabody]

I am new to this forum and not what someone would call a computer "junky". Im loving what I "SEA" so anything you guys advise for improvement to this subsim (which isnt much needed) would be great.
Heres the situation: Im new to this game, I played 688i for more modern sub-warfare for 11 years and I love that game VERY much. The enviroments in SH4 are the most amazing I have ever seen in a SIM. What I would like to accomplish is historically accurate fleets and regions with an injection of "hyothetical instances" of what IF USA was able to imploy the weapons that would have broken the back of the Imperial Navy. EXAMPLE: It was known throughout WW2 in the Pacific that Adm. Halsey wanted to split his BB Task forces to assault the enemy on every lane in the sea. The problem was, the U.S. Battleships were the slowest of the fleet, so in saying, your Battlegroup is only as fast as your slowest ship. Made it VERY difficult for these ships to "patrol" lanes without supply ports close to action area. I wanted to make a new "hypothetical" (Taskforce/ USTF 2008).
ACTION AREA: Leyte Gulf 10/1944
STRATEGIC VALUE: The Leyte operation was to be the crucial battle of the war in the Pacific. On its outcome would depend the fate of the Philippines and the future course of the war against Japan. Located in the heart of the archipelago, Leyte was the focal point where the Southwest Pacific forces of General MacArthur were to converge with the Central Pacific forces of Admiral Nimitz in a mighty assault to wrest the Philippines from the hands of the enemy.With Leyte under General MacArthur's control, the other islands would be within effective striking distance of his ground and air forces. Leyte was to be the anvil against which he would hammer the Japanese into submission in the central Philippines, the springboard from which he would proceed to the conquest of Luzon for the final attack against Japan itself. Military necessity demanded that the Allies achieve a decisive victory on Leyte. General MacArthur and Admiral Nimitz were committed to employ the maximum resources at their command.
FORCES (Historically accurate):
JAPAN: Northern Force (Ozawa)4 Carriers,2 Battleship-Carriers,3 Cruisers, 8 Destroyers; Shima Force (Shima)3 Cruisers,7 Destroyers,Central Force (Kurita)5 Battleships,12 Cruisers,15 Destroyers;Southern Force (Nishimura)2 Battleships,1 Cruiser,4 Destroyers

U.S.A.: Northern Force (Halsey/3rd Fleet)6 Battleships, 16 Carriers,15 Cruisers,58 Destoyers;Southern Force (Kinkaid/7th Fleet) 6 Battleships,18 Carriers,11 Cruisers,36 Destoyers
NOTICE NO SUBS!
In 1944, JAPANS position was both critical and desperate, hence; sending the Battleship Yamato into action against a far more superior force. (Battle Off Samar, SH4 stock mission) Although its fun, its a turd of for understanding what really happened, On top of it, having a chance to change history with history.
(hypothetical-USTF 2008;6 Battle ships with the Arizona,Oklahoma included,16 Cruisers,22 Destoyers, this would be the "pincer" maneuver from the north east of Samar Island to the west to trap the wounded Japanese Nothern Force (Ozawa) after just having an engagement against 3rd Fleet/Halsey) and having to retreat back to the north.
Just a side thought to this , roll back to 12/7/1941, what if...The U.S. had the A/C carriers in port and all the battleships were out to sea, this would have turned out to be a very different war thats for sure,hehe. Im pretty sure there would have been tasked huge BB groups twice the size they had and sailed them straight into Toyko Harbour in summer of 1942!
So back to the SIM: Im trying to find out first IF we can get these battleships to start engaging at the 15,000 yard ranges for IOWA class and 18,000 for the Yamato. Is this possible in a mod and if so, please put into an idiot proof way of how to so as i dont get lost in "8804ferkfjb34fbn" stuff.....If I cant get my BB's to perform like they are supposed to, it makes it hard to justify even trying to make a hypthetical add on battlegroup to this mission,adding my sub would only be observation point to watch the action unfold. Thanks alot for your time guys, you are all very fun to chat with. A wealth of information! If you would like to take part in the battle there is a link to the Iowa, you can install it and you can watch from the Iowa's tower. And I think the guns are set for 14000 yds.

Edit: my mistake it's 14000 meters

Peabody

[thasaint]

Wiki's article on the battle itself says that Washington didn't open fire until 9000 yards, and first illuminated Kirishima with searchlights.
For the next three minutes, Washington's 16-inchers hurled out 42 rounds, opening at 18,500 yards range, her fire aimed at the light cruiser Sendai. Simultaneously, the battleship's five-inch dual-purpose battery was engaging another ship also being shelled by South Dakota.
from washington's wiki

the wiki for the battle itself doesn't specify the range the washington opened up on the sendai.... though it says she landed no hits...

can't trust wiki too much, good for general info not specifics

[Raptor1]

Wiki's article on the battle itself says that Washington didn't open fire until 9000 yards, and first illuminated Kirishima with searchlights.
For the next three minutes, Washington's 16-inchers hurled out 42 rounds, opening at 18,500 yards range, her fire aimed at the light cruiser Sendai. Simultaneously, the battleship's five-inch dual-purpose battery was engaging another ship also being shelled by South Dakota.
from washington's wiki, so the 2 pages conflict... gg wiki hehe
No they don't

Most significantly, however, Washington soon engaged Kirishima in the first head-to-head confrontation of battleships in the Pacific War. In seven minutes, tracking by radar, Washington fired 75 rounds of 16 inch and 107 rounds of five-inch shells at ranges from 8,400 to 12,650 yards, scoring at least nine hits with her main 16" battery, and about 40 with her five-inchers, silencing the enemy Kirishima in short order and setting her on fire. Subsequently, Washington's five-inch batteries went to work on other targets spotted by her radar electronics.
Read...

Although I do believe it was Kirishima that illuminated herself by turning on her searchlights when she attacked South Dakota, not Washington illuminating Kirishima