Whats the point in the XVIII?

[Gigalocus]

Basically, I was working my ass off in the Indian Ocean, and was rewarded with a new sub, fantastic I though, happily accepted, and began looking around my new sub ...

And, honestly I was dissapointed. :down:

Problems include:

No Deck Gun

Worse AA Guns

No aft tubes

Lose my expensive upgrades on previous boat

No additional speed (Submerged or surfaced, the loss of the guns don't gain ANY speed? :doh: )

Lose expensive torpedoes from previous boat

But worst of all, the range. in my IX, I could easily get to the mission area, and make it back to a refuel point, before heading back out again. In this, despite going at low speeds, I can't even get 3/4 of way to the mission, let alone get back. And my Missions are always 'Patrol off Aden' or 'Sink 10,000 tonnes of Kenya' or 'Sink a task force before it reaches Ceylon' etc. But I can't get there! :damn:

So what am I supposed to do? Ignore the mission, or die trying to get there.

From what I've seen, the only advantage is the Walter propolsion system, which although great (28knts submerged! Wow) runs out quickly, and can hradly be used thanks to British destroyers.

About the loss of deck gun and AA, at first I thought it would be good, XXI style, ment to stay submerged, sleek fast! But no ... same old 7knts submerged.

Prehaps it dives quicker and longer ... never really though to check it out, I had NO fuel to spare.

So negatives: I have a weaker boat, with less range, impossible missions, incredibly unprotected, have to wast torpedoes on stationary ships, rubbish speed, loss of some crew and upgrades.

Compared to the positives of: A small time boost of speed, more forward tubes, from most angles its better looking then an IX ...

Right, so whats the point? Am I missing something? Whats so impressive? Is it amost impossible to detect with sonar? (Not that I'll get anywhere near the convoys, I'll be out of fuel at the Adamans) and I like my realism settings, I don't want unlimited fuel.

But why the XVIII? Why include a sub that was never deployed to the Indian, and never produced, to a U-boat that was produced, just not deployed in the Indian. Why not just give me a XXI? It makes ALOT more sense, and it would actually be worth it. :dead:

For now, I'm sticking with my IX! :x

[Fincuan]

Compared to IXD2:
+Deeper operating depth
+Faster torpedo reloading
+Six forward tubes
+More torpedos
+Walther propulsion

With this boat you are untouchable when underwater. A few minutes with "Walther" engaged will shake any DD off your tail. Too bad it's not in OpMonsun so I only used it for one patrol(iirc from Surabaya to Aden, had just enough fuel).

[AntEater]

The point in the XVIII in SH4 is to add at least something new to a totally daft and unrealistic addon!
The moment I read the first announcement of U Boat missions I lost my faith in Ubisoft Romania.

In reality, the purpose of the XVIII was to make submerged daylight attacks on convoys with the same speed a VII had surfaced.
It was not meant to be a "true submarine", like the XXI.

[Gorshkov]

Ubisoft Romania should include in UBT add-on some features lacking in base SH4 game like ST radar for example. Anyway they always lack time to finish games due to need to release them in the hot Christmas period. Therefore we still get "unfinished hits" i.e. very good games in concept but without many interesting features! :(

Yet I don't think that type XVIII sub presence is a key issue here...

[Gigalocus]

In reality, the purpose of the XVIII was to make submerged daylight attacks on convoys with the same speed a VII had surfaced.
It was not meant to be a "true submarine", like the XXI.

:dead: So ... in SHIV its impossible, submerged is 7knts (Same as IX) so that meas only with the Walter 'on' but that just runs out quickly, and surely it would be heard?

Besides, I haven't even got enough fuel to get to the convoys! :damn:

[Rockin Robbins]

There are good reasons the Type XVIII was killed and replaced by the similar looking Type XXI.

[FIREWALL]

Basically, I was working my ass off in the Indian Ocean, and was rewarded with a new sub, fantastic I though, happily accepted, and began looking around my new sub ...

And, honestly I was dissapointed. :down:

Problems include:

No Deck Gun

Worse AA Guns

No aft tubes

Lose my expensive upgrades on previous boat

No additional speed (Submerged or surfaced, the loss of the guns don't gain ANY speed? :doh: )

Lose expensive torpedoes from previous boat

But worst of all, the range. in my IX, I could easily get to the mission area, and make it back to a refuel point, before heading back out again. In this, despite going at low speeds, I can't even get 3/4 of way to the mission, let alone get back. And my Missions are always 'Patrol off Aden' or 'Sink 10,000 tonnes of Kenya' or 'Sink a task force before it reaches Ceylon' etc. But I can't get there! :damn:

So what am I supposed to do? Ignore the mission, or die trying to get there.

From what I've seen, the only advantage is the Walter propolsion system, which although great (28knts submerged! Wow) runs out quickly, and can hradly be used thanks to British destroyers.

About the loss of deck gun and AA, at first I thought it would be good, XXI style, ment to stay submerged, sleek fast! But no ... same old 7knts submerged.

Prehaps it dives quicker and longer ... never really though to check it out, I had NO fuel to spare.

So negatives: I have a weaker boat, with less range, impossible missions, incredibly unprotected, have to wast torpedoes on stationary ships, rubbish speed, loss of some crew and upgrades.

Compared to the positives of: A small time boost of speed, more forward tubes, from most angles its better looking then an IX ...

Right, so whats the point? Am I missing something? Whats so impressive? Is it amost impossible to detect with sonar? (Not that I'll get anywhere near the convoys, I'll be out of fuel at the Adamans) and I like my realism settings, I don't want unlimited fuel.

But why the XVIII? Why include a sub that was never deployed to the Indian, and never produced, to a U-boat that was produced, just not deployed in the Indian. Why not just give me a XXI? It makes ALOT more sense, and it would actually be worth it. :dead:

For now, I'm sticking with my IX! :x


Hi Gigalocus :D

It seems everyone has lost the point of your post.

It's unrealistic but, included for the Arcade players.

For realism stay with your IX boat if you can.:yep:

[Ishmael]

I've run the XVIII for a couple of patrols. while not at 100% realism, I only use auto-fire control and no duds. Every other realism option for fuel, sensors, reapair and crew are all set to realistic.

By traveling at 1/3 speed surfaced, I was able to cruise to the south Australian coast, accomplish my mission and return to Singapore unharmed with some minimal fuel left. I would only go to standard, full or flank if stalking a contact. While the AA is deficient, the faster dive time along with the radar detection gives me plenty of time to ge to PD and stay undetected.

I really only use the Waterdrive to sprint below the layer or overhaul a target ahead. In both patrols, I returned with fuel left here as well.

[pythos]

I think the OP is absolutely lacking in the history of the german U boats.

The type XVIII is inculded as a "What if" choice.

This boat would have been a true threat if the problems with the Walter drive were worked out. (people can argue they would have been an equal threat to both side of the coin)

It is not designed to operate on the surface. In case you did not know U-boats were sitting ducks for the RAF and coastal command later in the war when they were on the surface day OR NIGHT.

I don't understand why the simulation of the Type XVIII lacks a snorkel cause it is my understanding all boats of period of the war had the device.

The type XXI is a direct decendent of the type XVIII of which two were being built, but were converted on the slips over to the Type XXI form.

[Effigy]

I eventually grew to like this ship after spitefully turning down the original offer to hop in it. Later on, nearer the end of the war, command gave me a second chance at taking the boat. More of an ultimatum, really. It was either take the ship or it would be the end of my career; so I opted to bite the bullet and give my crew another handful of patrols.

Originally sore that there were no aft tubes nor deck gun, I actually ended up enjoying my final patrols in it quite a bit. :yep:

[Frame57]

I miss having deck guns. I like to use them when the weather is fowl and visibility is nill. That is when I have fun taking out stuff. But the walther boat is neat too. With the extra tubes up front and the ability to move fast with the turbines engaged. I have fun decimating task forces. They just do not know what hit em. Yep! But remember to turn off the turbine or it just becomes another pokey Diesel boat.

[Gigalocus]

I've run the XVIII for a couple of patrols. while not at 100% realism, I only use auto-fire control and no duds. Every other realism option for fuel, sensors, reapair and crew are all set to realistic.

By traveling at 1/3 speed surfaced, I was able to cruise to the south Australian coast, accomplish my mission and return to Singapore unharmed with some minimal fuel left. I would only go to standard, full or flank if stalking a contact. While the AA is deficient, the faster dive time along with the radar detection gives me plenty of time to ge to PD and stay undetected.

I really only use the Waterdrive to sprint below the layer or overhaul a target ahead. In both patrols, I returned with fuel left here as well.

I'm operating from Penang, and my missions are always off Africa or Aden/Iran.

I simply CANNOT get there, I've actually had to turn on Unlimited batteries :cry: just so I can get there! :damn: (Does having unlimited fuel give unlimited Walter turbine?)

Is there a Snorkel MOD?

The point is, I'm sure the XVIII has advantages, (Just noticed reload speed ... wow!) but the lack of fuel ... makes it pointless!

You can't I just have a XXI? Thats actually ueful and a whole lot different to the XI, from what I've seen, the XVIII is just a more 'wared' upversion of the IX, but completly lacks everything else needed. (IE its good at forward attack, but sucks at retreating, submerging, defence etc)

[Gorshkov]

I've run the XVIII for a couple of patrols. while not at 100% realism, I only use auto-fire control and no duds. Every other realism option for fuel, sensors, reapair and crew are all set to realistic.

By traveling at 1/3 speed surfaced, I was able to cruise to the south Australian coast, accomplish my mission and return to Singapore unharmed with some minimal fuel left. I would only go to standard, full or flank if stalking a contact. While the AA is deficient, the faster dive time along with the radar detection gives me plenty of time to ge to PD and stay undetected.

I really only use the Waterdrive to sprint below the layer or overhaul a target ahead. In both patrols, I returned with fuel left here as well.
I'm operating from Penang, and my missions are always off Africa or Aden/Iran.

I simply CANNOT get there, I've actually had to turn on Unlimited batteries :cry: just so I can get there! :damn: (Does having unlimited fuel give unlimited Walter turbine?)
If you cannot but others can you simply do something wrong with fuel management. I suppose you travel into assigned patrol area too fast.

[Gigalocus]

[If you cannot but others can you simply does something wrong with fuel management. I suppose you travel into assigned patrol area too fast.

Nope, no matter what speed I go at, even at 1kts, I can't get to an axis base.

[Fincuan]

Nope, no matter what speed I go at, even at 1kts, I can't get to an axis base.

That's what you're doing wrong then. Slower speed DOES NOT necessarily equal better fuel economy. Find out the most economic cruising speed for your boat, and you'll have no trouble reaching the patrol areas.

[Frame57]

No! Unlimited fuel will not give unlimited "Goose Juice". That will always deplete. Try a ten knot speed to get where you are going, else you have a fuel leak.

[pythos]

The boats in SH4 actually have a pretty well simulated hull drag model.

As a boat moves through the water it creates drag, this drag increases as the boat speeds up, but it also increases when it slows down. That's right, drag increases at slower speeds. The boat has an optimum speed for best speed and drag, this is where the drag is at its its lowest, and the boat is operating at the most efficient.

For instance. These are the speeds and ranges for a gato leaving port.
at 1/3 the boat had a range of 5585 NM, at 2/3, 11778 NM, Stand 15113 NM, Full 5548, and finally flank 3634 NM. So the optimal cruise for this boat is at standard speed, which is about 10 kts. This is also affected by weather and sea state, but not all the much.

The type XVIII is a very very clean hull design hydrodynamically. Compared to the long legged type IX, the hull of the type XVIII is very slick, which allows it to travel further per gallon of fuel than the less smooth type IX.

I am going to do a range test with the type XVIIII and post my results. Stay tuned.

[pythos]

I did a speed and range check, and yea, the boat is pretty awful as far as range it concerned.

Here are the results.
1/3: 15868 KM, at 7kts
2/3: 13243 KM, at 10kts
stand: 7126 km, at 15kts
Full: 5255 km, at 17kts
Flank: 4649 km, at 18kts.

Remember these ranges are in kilometers. The milage at the best range speed is 8569 NM, just over half the range of the Gato at standard (10kts).

It is in no way a long range boat. Probably another reason the boat was converted over to the type XXI standard.

As far as a hard hitting, "strike and fade" weapon this thing is top notch. You can quietly sneak in, fire your first salvo, engage the walter and dive deep, all the while reloading your tubes, going back to silent running at periscope depth, and make another attack. And you can do this over and over again, and as long as the walter holds out, and the number of torps you have, you can decimate a large convoy single handedly, without having to worry about depth charges. If you get pinged, you can dash away and re allocate your targets...on the other side of the convoy.

If the Walter drive did not have the bad tendency to blow up at the wrong moment, this would really have been a terrible weapon against the allied fleets.

Thank God the drive liked to explode.

[Gorshkov]

All your above deliberations refers to optimal control theory, guys. In short, optimal speed/range value is an example of minimum energy trajectory solved by Bellman equation.
Of course it is quite hard to understand but it can clearly explain why the slowest sub speed doesn't offer the longest range. :know:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellman_equation

If the Walter drive did not have the bad tendency to blow up at the wrong moment, this would really have been a terrible weapon against the allied fleets.
This is a big mistake! It should be as follows: "If the Walter drive had not had..." - Type three Conditional! ;)

[OKO]

As you all know, XVIII wasn't made for pacific theatre, and they were short legs for this wide area.
Simple problem to solve using larger fuel tanker on this big ship... but simply a bad theatre for them, historically ...

Here is the way I use the XVIII : it's like boom and zoom => cruising 11 knts to go to patrol area (11.000km range), then patroling at 1/3 (7 knts) on the desirated zone, until I have a proximity radio contact or, even better, until one of my sensor reveal me a potential target.

If it's a radio message for an incoming (not outgoing) contact, I plot an interception path to meet the target, only if I could do that without expending to much fuel to hunt.
This mean, no much than 200km (say 100NM) ( at full (17knts), if i couldn't intercept the target within 100NM, I simply forget it and wait for another one.
If it's easy to go to an interception point, I do my best to go there with minimal fuel consomption : If I can go there to 11 kts it's nicer than to go at 17 knts, so you simply have to plot a good path when it's possible.

Once a target pop up to my sensor, I immediately go to Walter propulsion.
If a target is caught by sonar, I have around 20 miles before watching it, so, moving at standard, surfacing, at 23knts right ahead to the target position, reading, during the way in, the right or left defilement on the sonar to lead the path of the target.

Once I see the smoke (using PE here) I finalize the approach, staying enought away to avoid detection (remember to send a "convoy" message to the base when you could do, it will help you and give you more objectives, increasing the immersion).
During that time, I manage to position myself, very easily with walter sytem, ahead of the convoy path.

So the final word is this : only use the walter propulsion when you already have caught a contact on you sensor, never before.
This way you could make around 4 patrol with your H2O2 (reloading 2 or 3 times).
This is actually my first patrol with XVIII, just finished to use all of my torps and half of my fuel, still 84% of H2O2, 45.000 tons in 10 days, south of Java for patrol area.
Stock SHIV (XVIII is implayable with RFB) only external view (for the show)

Fortunatly, there is lot of refueling point, but XVIII is really short leg in fuel for pacific theatre.
Amazing boat anyway.
With 1/4 of type IX torpedo as reload, once you found a convoy, he is in very bad trouble, whatever the escort, all major ships are condamned.

It's harder to find them than to sink them, but usual uboat commander will be really surprised at the speed all things will occurs, about 3 to 4 time faster than usually.
That's need to be pretty accurate and to think 3 to 4 times speeder than in a conventionnal WWII submarine.
But this is not because you have a so good weapon, you become a terrific commander, this ship need to be properly handled to be used correctly.
It's simply not a "magic boat", and you have to learn to do the job in 3 to 4 time less time than other submarines.
Here, experimented submariners will do a much bigger difference than average ones.
Even if it's much more easier to evade problems, it's also harder to engage, as the window is shorter to fire at targets.

This XVIII / XXI are the first modern submarines, in term of performance, the way they are built, and doctrine used with them.
Americans, russians, english and french used this technology at the end of war to built new generation submarines.
We could say XVIII (more likely XXI) completely changed the face of submarine warfare after the end of WWII.

[The Fishlord]

If you're really pissed off about having this...There's a great Type XXI mod here. It gives a snorkel, deck guns, and a new skin to the Walther. (And removes the turbine).

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=136568&highlight=modified+type+xviii

NOTE: Putting ROW #3a over the mod will remove the deck guns, keep the snorkel, and add the walther back in. If that's your deal, go ahead with overwriting it.

[Gorshkov]

My five cents about Type XVIII U-boat endurance: I never tested it in the game but I have recently checked her real data on the Internet. Here you are:

- surface range on diesels: 5200Mm@12kts
- underwater range using batteries: 45nm@4kts
- underwater range using Walter turbine: 202nm@24kts


Also for comparison you have the following data:

Type XXI:

- surface range on diesels: 11150nm@12kts
- underwater range using batteries: 340nm@5kts

Type IXC:

- surface range on diesels: 11000nm@12kts
- underwater range using batteries: 63nm@4kts

Type VIIC:

- surface range on diesels: 6500nm@12kts
- underwater range using batteries: 80nm@4kts

As you can see it is obvious that Type XVIII U-boat was not designed as ocean-going submarine! It was simply direct Type VII boat successor and thus developed solely with ATO in mind. This sub should have shattered Allied convoys around Britain with impunity thanks to her amazing submerged speed.
So I think your blaming on Type XVIII U-boat is unfounded! This sub was good in concept (aside of unreliable propulsion but I assume this was successfully solved in our fictional game reality) and would be very deadly. One thing UBT developers missed is wrong TMO they assigned this U-boat. In short, huge Pacific distances exclude medium range subs as effective tool of warfare. Note US fleet subs were very large boats as for Atlantic standards. They were in 1500t/2500t displacement class, not even produced by European countries during war. That is why you still meet all these troubles with limited range navigating Type XVIII boat...but this is not Type's XVIII fault per se!

Simply Type XVIII should belong to SH3 and Type XXI sub should go into UBT... :yep:

[zygoma]

How/where does one refuel in a mission? And if it's possible, can one also take out a new cage of eels to continue a mission from someplace? I don't see options after I dock besides "Continue Mission" and "Dock at XX XXXXXX?"
Inquiring noobs wanna know......
- -. -..- . ... --... ...--
-.. . -.- .-.. --... .... -. -.--

[Hinrich Schwab]

How/where does one refuel in a mission? And if it's possible, can one also take out a new cage of eels to continue a mission from someplace? I don't see options after I dock besides "Continue Mission" and "Dock at XX XXXXXX?"
Inquiring noobs wanna know......
- -. -..- . ... --... ...--
-.. . -.- .-.. --... .... -. -.--

Go to any friendly port that is not your home port and select "refit" when the menu appears once you are in docking range.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Historically, the Type XVIII never saw the light of day. Construction was halted halfway through in favor of the Type XXI. The Type XVIII is sort of a not-so-hidden Easter egg and a "what if" scenario. However, it is no long range boat. Its diesel endurance is comparable to a Type VIIB with its most fuel efficient speed being around 7.5 knots. 12 knots is not the most fuel efficient speed. The Walter Drive is necessary to maintain depth below 180m. The e-machines are less effective and consume too much battery power to maintain for very long.

What the Type XVIII excels at is submerged high speed approach and high speed submerged evasion. The drive may be extremely noisy, but with a flank speed rate of 28kts, escorts really cannot do much other than run around desperately trying to get a fix before they have to accelerate past washout speed to follow. Even if the escorts are all over you, depth charges do not fall fast enough. The odds of a hit are slim, if you are Johhny-on-the-Spot.

Good thing, too. Historically, the 80% H2O2 fuel is obnoxiously volatile and equally corrosive. A good hit to a fuel cell would rupture it and you would blow yourself up. This reality and the expense of the fuel is why the XXI boat came into being. Germany could not afford to make this thing work fast enough.

[Torplexed]

This sub should have shattered Allied convoys around Britain with impunity thanks to her amazing submerged speed.


If it had worked perfectly as it does in the game. A big what-if. Every nation that experimented with the Walther engine concept after the war eventually abandoned it as too dangerous.

[Gangrene]

I just finished my first patrol with the XVIII and I'm pretty satisfied with the results... It's the first time I've come back to port with absolutely no hull damage, probably for a couple of factors. About 56k of ships sunk which is pretty low, but I was able to nail a 10k warship that would have gotten away otherwise using what I'm calling "Super SPEED" for a nice follow up shot, got close enough for a follow up homing torpedo... try dodging that. ;)

It reloads like a beast and if a ship is still going fast with escorts... who cares. Super speed till you get about 600 or closer meters with gas torpedo set to fast, there is no dodging that either! You cannot catch a fast ship underwater with a IX... If you can't surface because a lot of escorts are around to get more speed, typically kiss it goodbye. Especially a warship convoy.

You want to pull out a torpedo and put in a homing torpedo, no problem... it's like a instant request by comparison.

For the distance issue I'm having good results at 1/3 speed, can get around Australia and back.

The deck gun is a shame, because it is fun to jump in that gunner seat and start unloading on a helpless ship without using a torpedo, but I've got 25 torpedoes... no external reloads, they are all at my fingertips. I'll take it as a trade off for a near invincible ship.

Like I said, no damage... I'll sometimes take a nick from a plane... even if I dive I may take a % or 2 of damage. The thing dives way faster without even having to press c for a crash dive. It seems to get spotted less. It also looks smaller hence a smaller target for cannon fire and bombs.

So, where I'll usually take out a few ships with guns really tacking on to my tonnage, it was a pretty fun experience... and I used only like an 1/8th of my hydrogen peroxide! Don't think I'll run out of that stuff.

Well, that's what I can think of off hand... Also I didn't lose crew experience or my awesome torpedoes as someone else stated earlier. They gave me two homing torpedoes and several pattern running torpedoes. I don't use the pattern just program them for a straight run.

[Gangrene]

Hinrich, FYI, I get the "refit" option at my home base too.

[Gangrene]

Just thought of something else... I get sonar contacts while on the surface using this boat! Because of that under hull design? Whatever the reason, that rocks!!!!!

[Gangrene]

Another thing, you can recharge your batteries without losing speed. I tried stopping the recharge and it did not effect my speed while on diesel.

[Gangrene]

and the no aft tubes thing... turn on "Super SPEED", you can run circles around escorts just reorient yourself for a front shot. This thing is a beast!

On the other hand you have a big advantage... You have the advantage of a 6 shot spread on the front, great for that big warship... worry less about a dud or miss and you're likely to stop it in its tracks.

[bowfin]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the range of the Walter at slower speeds.
I just tested and got submerged range of
4500km @ 5knots!
2500km @ 8knots!!

The limiting factor becomes the CO2 build up with no snorkel.

I think the type XVIII is a fascinating prototype that never was and an important step in the development of the type XXI.
It's just preposterous to have them in the pacific in 44.
I would probably play a career if it was 45 in the north sea.

[Carthaginian]

I'm so wrapped up in the American campaign, I haven't even taken the XVIII out for a spin yet.

This makes me very interested in doing so.