torpedo spreads

[ddiplock]

Does anyone have a method for getting their torpedos to strike different parts down the length of a target?? I'm a manual shooter, and I generally have no problem in getting my torpedos to hit their targets. But I've noticed that they all impact the same spot on the ship.

I've just done a run through of the torpedo training mission some 6 times now trying out different tactics and nothing seems to make a difference. They all hit, just the same spot on the cruiser. lol :(

I've tried using the offset angle dial, but that doesn't seem to make sod all difference, I've also tried updating the PK after each torpedo shot in the hopes they will hit different parts of the ship. Some spreads I've got to spread out really good and i'm thinking "yeah that'll work" first torpedo hits, great....oh no, 2nd torp hits same spot as the 1st, 3rd hits same spot as 1st, and 4th hits same spot as the 1st. End result: the spread looked great but they all went through the same hole on the ship :shifty:

I'm looking to maximise damage on my targets when i'm out on patrol so, does anyone have any tips or suggestions on a surefire method that DOES make the torpedos hit different parts on a target?

Cheers guys :)

[Mush Martin]

I have been doing a boatload of work on this subject over the last
eight weeks.

What do ya need:arrgh!:


can you lay out what you need in a scenario
because against a single targetship okanes
method is in truth the easiest way to walk
the torpedos down the length of the ship
(see below)
but there are other methods
spreads however are best applied either
when your not totally certain of your data
or against groups.

method determine line of advance
set shot on priority ship.
advance lock or use offset angle to move impact
point back from aft to middle.

use offset after first shot to somewhere between
.2 to .5 degrees or -.2 to -.5 degrees per torpedo
depending on target course relative to attack.
[edit] thats with PK on
(this technique with varying spreads works great
and when applied properly against a group can
really leave a mark. see eg.2)

in the same
direction as the ship line of advance

eg.1
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/BBBBB.jpg

eg. 2a
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SalvoSeries002.jpg

eg. 2b
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SalvoSeries004.jpg

[Lynx2069]

I personally add about .5 to a full degree left or right respectivly for merchant shipping and about a degree between them for warships.

It's not truly a spread setting it's a gyro offset, US boats didn't fire multiple tube salvos like the Germans they fired individual tubes in succession. I have used it, not always successfully, to attack multiple convoy targets in a line with only one PK read. Although that method requires them to be moving at roughly between 1-2 kts of one another,and for you to make some quick mental notes of the degrees between targets.

[ddiplock]

So, one method is to simply adjust the offset angle for EACH torpedo shot by plus or minus degrees that I see fit yeah? Could that work?

as in, fire 1 adjust angle, fire 2, adjust angle again, fire 3 and so on?

[C DuDe]

That's on the mark!

Normally I stick to +2.5 to -2.5 on warships with torpedoes going shallow to deep and back to shallow to make the most damage.

A nice trick I've use sometimes and a while ago.. As I've bin put behind a desk for the last 6months due to a mishap at sea :dead: ... on BB's was to put all torp's to the bow of the ship starting with approx +3dgr. going to +1dgr.
With any luck the 2 middle fish will rip the armory's apart and she'll go nose first faster then your sub will ever go to periscope depth.

At least it worked on 1.4 with some mod's installed.
Have 1.5 but am waiting for my new PC before I install the game again.

[Mush Martin]

Sure but as stated Dick Okane's method Is usually best for walking
down a single ship.

do all your torpedo solution stuff get to firing point.
turn off pk unlock scope move half degree ahead of
target (ish) and let go salvo at a steady set of intervals
based on the target size and speed.
ie 1 shot per second or 1 shot every two seconds or
whatever

ie. yamato will take more time to move through the
attack bearing than a Kaibokan so in the former
case shooting with long intervals spreads damage
further and in the latter case would mean not missing.

M

[Sailor Steve]

It's not truly a spread setting it's a gyro offset, US boats didn't fire multiple tube salvos like the Germans they fired individual tubes in succession.
Neither did the Germans - the torpedoes would have interfered with each other at best, and collided at worst. The 'Salvo' switch merely told the torpedo crew which tubes to fire. They were still fired several seconds apart.

[Frederf]

Yeah I was gunna say that. There was a minimum separation mandated so that one torpedo wouldn't affect the other if one went boom nearby either prematurely or at the target surface.

Basically there's two kind of "spreads":

1. Okane method of parallel torpedo tracks. It benefits by being able to to really accurately target specific portions of the ship. The spread is not divergent nor convergent so range doesn't change coverage. One of the major downsides is how long it takes to fire your torpedoes which greatly increases your exposure time (including periscope exposure time). Also it's not terribly compatible with using the PK. The best way to use the PK is to have the PK on and evolving the solution, you set the range dial for what the PK says the range is, and then right before you start firing you drag the wire out just in front of the bow of the target, turn off PK, send range/bearing, and fire as normal during the Okane method.

2. Gyro offset spreads are best for getting the most fish out the gate as fast as possible and doing so from a stealthy position. You can either check out the angular size of the target with the wire during one of your data gathering peeks, or just use a little math. Sine of 1ª times the range equals the lateral width offset. Small merchants are about 80 yards long, mediums 100yds, and larges 150yds with the biggest ocean liners being about 200yds. The nice thing is you can fire your torps pretty rapid fire and get the heck out of there sooner. Also you can fire this spread from 149' once you have your PK data! This really helps in preventing your butt from being sunk. The spread diverges so the pattern will increase in width with time. That might be good or bad for your "2nd chance" targets behind the first one.

[Mush Martin]

Well I would accept that there are two basic ways of making
spreads but I might extend even that a bit.

there are however more than two types of spreads, as such.

eg.

Parrallel

perpendicular

paired

paired parrallel
double paired parrallel

tridents and arrowheads

etc etc etc

that doesnt touch a lot of stuff but just a few examples.

[looney]

I'm currently playing a german carreer, mainly cause I can't target specific points on a ship using the PK. Plus I like the simplicity of the German TDC (specially cause I'm using map updates, I miss my WO calling out ranges).

I can't figure out how to use the PK to fire ambush shots.. ie 500m (800 yd) perpendicular to track submerged at 0kn. I figured that the scope has nothing to do where the torps hit (PK on of course). Thus making convoy attacks a lot harder.

[joegrundman]

Why don't you read what the USN had to say about the matter after learning their stuff playing this game for real?

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm#chap06

what they say works in the game just as well,

[Mush Martin]

Sweeeet thanks Joe:up:

[Lynx2069]

It's not truly a spread setting it's a gyro offset, US boats didn't fire multiple tube salvos like the Germans they fired individual tubes in succession. Neither did the Germans - the torpedoes would have interfered with each other at best, and collided at worst. The 'Salvo' switch merely told the torpedo crew which tubes to fire. They were still fired several seconds apart.

Interesting, and makes perfect since, I'm assuming firing them simultaneously would cause problems with the magnetic pistols.

[Rockin Robbins]

Basically there's two kind of "spreads":

1. Okane method of parallel torpedo tracks. It benefits by being able to to really accurately target specific portions of the ship. The spread is not divergent nor convergent so range doesn't change coverage. One of the major downsides is how long it takes to fire your torpedoes which greatly increases your exposure time (including periscope exposure time). Would you believe I have a new wrinkle on Dick O'Kane where the torpedoes are fired with no periscope exposure time at all? And where you can fire from 99', the deepest that SH4 will allow you to fire? (real submarines could fire at 199', not 99')

Check out my virtually new Dick O'Kane Sonar Only (by God!) Manual Targeting Technique (http://files.filefront.com/Dick+OKane+Sonar+Only00197z/;10324567;/fileinfo.html).

Now that video is a proof of concept, setting up the whole shebang with sonar only. There is no reason you couldn't use conventional Dick O'Kane practice of setting up your attack from radar information, determining course and speed that way since you are out of sight of the enemy anyway. After your attack is all set up, submerge, set your boat in position at the depth of your choice and just fire by sonar bearings. Either way this is MUCH more accurate than any sonar only technique released up until now.

(RTFM. The nerve of ole Joe there!:nope:) See? We HAVE learned something since 1945!:rotfl:I'm checking out the fine manual anyway...

[kramxel]

Why don't you read what the USN had to say about the matter after learning their stuff playing this game for real?

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm#chap06

what they say works in the game just as well,

That is some great reading!


Do you have anything on torpedo depth?

[Frederf]

Robbins, yeah you can Okane method from sonar but bearing information is not super accurate on the phones. I've done Okane from 149' and launched successfully. I had to fire all forward tubes to be sure of good coverage. There's the slight ambiguity in the direction plus the fact that the sound vector is going to be to the screws of the target, not her bow. Being off the length of the target is rather embarrassing.

My understanding is that active sonar readings are not detectable by the AI unless there's been a patch so you could get course and speed from underwater, not that it'd be terribly historical. My most successful attacks have the target course and speed worked out well before hand.

I'll give the video a shot though.

VIDEO RESPONSE: I notice that you and Werner Sobe have a "strange" method of plotting range/bearing contacts on the map. You drag a compass circle for range and then a line for bearing. This takes a long time and requires you to drag around the compass-made circle every new spot. Say if I have a mark I want to make at 17,000yds, 125R I zoom in on my boat to the point that I get the bearing image on the map, drag out a line from my boat across the relative bearing that I want, make a note of what true bearing that is (this is how I just learned how to quickly convert relative to true; old method in the next paragraph), then drag out the proper range making sure that the line passes through the true bearing and make a mark.

My old method of relative/true conversion was to hop on the hydrophones real quick and move the cursor over to my relative bearing, use the diamond indicator to convert over to true bearing and then go back to the map. I found that using the bearing wheel that shows up if you zoom in a little ways was faster but if you don't have it or don't want to use it this hydrophone dial conversion works just dandy.

I can't tell if you did it but I like to start the stopwatch after the first reading and take them on roughly regular intervals. The nomograph on the nav map lets you be a lot more flexible with timing. My gut instinct is always to use the first and the latest marks for the most accurate speed.

I've heard that the sonar range is pretty error prone so it's best to take 3-5 every time and do the average and not just once.

Also be aware that depending on target speed (mostly) the optimum torpedo track angle (in terms of error tolerance) is not a 90 degree shot but closer to 97-105 degrees. Also if you're attacking a convoy you want to have your torpedo track angle have the greatest chance of hidding targets behind the first, meaning you want a Ta that's (90+) the sine of the convoy speed over the torpedo speed. Also there's that nasty historical bit that squarely impacting shots tended to break the detonator instead of setting it off, so I try to avoid anything in the 70-110 AOB range until they get fixed.

Also if you time it right you can do all the data gathering at whatever nice deep depth you feel comfortable with. This helps not getting detected when escorts are present. Also keeping a low aspect to the escorts is important.

Also I consider the black map contact line is a kind of cheat as it provides a bearing precision far in excess of the precision that your ears can accomplish listening to the 'phones manually.

[Rockin Robbins]

Robbins, yeah you can Okane method from sonar but bearing information is not super accurate on the phones. I've done Okane from 149' and launched successfully. I had to fire all forward tubes to be sure of good coverage. There's the slight ambiguity in the direction plus the fact that the sound vector is going to be to the screws of the target, not her bow. Being off the length of the target is rather embarrassing.Theory is one thing. Reality is another. Sonar only for plotting course and speed works OK, but is nerve wracking and you need enough measurements to cancel out the errors. If your plotted course is 5º off, there is almost no consequence. If your speed is 5 knots off, you'll probably not get a hit. Frankly I don't see any effect from your logical argument that the sound coming from the stern of the target makes for innacurate shooting. My guess is that the game isn't built that way. If it were true, it would be very simple to build in a fudge factor to compensate.

In the video, with the inaccuracies resulting from absolutely pure, no peek, sonar use for absolutely everything, I only hit five of six shots. Had I set up with radar and then shot from sonar I don't know if I would have been any more accurate, but logically it seems that I would have to be more accurate that way.

At the very least, you can use passive sonar to tell you when to raise the scope for minimum exposure while you shoot, figuring that you're pretty safe with a thirty second exposure. That's plenty of time to shoot six torpedoes distributed from end to end along the hull of the target.

I can say that in several dozen old-style Dick O'Kane attacks I've never missed a target who saw my scope during the attack and evaded successfully. But of course I'm shooting from inside 800 yards.:up: From there, I don't really care what they see, they can't evade anyway, so long as my periscope is sighted after I begin firing.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Rockin Robbins is my hero. Thanks to his targetting vids I don't even have to use the TDC anymore. "Dick O'Kane" is so effective and simple you can do the calculations in your head with a bit of experience. Often you need only a roughly accurate guess of target speed to get a hit and you can perform incredibly accurate "snap" shots just by knowing where to aim the periscope and not even using any gyro angle.
The "sonar only" vid is great too but when I watched it there were sound-sync problems (ironic?). It does work well though. Personally I don't have any practical use for it but it is an amazing display of skill.
It has basically been said before but I will say it anyway. "O'Kane" is your best bet for multiple hits in precise locations and engaging multiple targets almost simultaneously. The spread dial in my boat has dust on it.

[Farinhir]

(real submarines could fire at 199', not 99')
I wonder if there is a way to correct this problem. I remember my shock when I set up my firing solution (I am still a novice at this though) for a carrier in a task force, dove to 180' (to hide from the planes), only to find I missed my chance because the game would not let me fire. I was not happy since I knew subs could fire at that depth even early in 1944. Just a thought. If someone fixes it let me know.

Oddly enough, I can hit targets with O'kane's method using sonar targeting only, but I still have trouble trying to set it up visually. Everytime I try I seem to only hit with the 1st of the 4 shots. Even though it is fired from around 1000 yards out and aimed at the bow, it tends to hit the stern. I have watched Rockin Robbins' and WernerSobe's vids several times, taking notes even. And I still seem to have trouble with the O'kane method for periscope attacks. I can set up an attack with the PK for that type of attack, but I fail at using PK for sonar. Any tips would be helpful. Maybe I will try to post a vid of myself trying to do the O'kane periscope shots (if Fraps does not slow my machine down too much).

And yes, that is I can use WernerSobe's teaching on the PK to do periscoped shots, but not his sonar setup. And I can use the Rockin Robbins video information to setup sonar attacks, but not scoped.

[Frederf]

I think the torpedo launch depth (also the maximum door operation depth) is in the sim files somewhere because with RFB 1.4 I can fire from down at 150', not 99'.

Theory is one thing. Reality is another.

That's my line! In theory you have a perfect idea of the enemy ship bearing using sonar but that's only because you have map contacts on and have the the ship locked up using the follow target command. In a 100% setting game attacking a convoy you don't have the luxury of either of those, nevermind that presenting a full 90 board aspect to the escorts would get one pinged pretty quick. I don't know if the game has the sound contact noise coming from ship center or at the screws (I would hope the screws) but it's something to keep in mind.

In my attempt to fire via sonar I launched while sitting at the hydrophone station and used the keyboard commands. I also calculated the angular size of the target with the idea that if the screws are at a bearing of X then the bow is at a bearing of Y.

I mean if you start firing at 10 second intervals when the screw noise lines up with the pre-calced bearing then your first shot is going to be at his screws and the rest behind the target. Just as example all of your shots landed in the latter 50% of the target length if memory of the video serves. Maybe Farinhir is experiencing this?

[Rockin Robbins]

I think the torpedo launch depth (also the maximum door operation depth) is in the sim files somewhere because with RFB 1.4 I can fire from down at 150', not 99'.
Now THAT's great news. In the tech manual section covering cuties, it is recommended to shoot the cutie from 199' and then duck below so you do not become its unintended target. The fact that you can shoot lower than I can with TMO shows that it must be modifiable.

I have this sinking feeling that the game renders sound from the middle of the target, because neither WernerSobe nor I noticed any effect from the sound coming from the stern of the target. Add that to the logical consequence of the devs never dreaming crazy skippers out there would try such a stupid pet trick and we have a probable hard wired unreality there.

In view of that, the most verifiably historical method of using the sonar would be to tell you when to raise the scope to begin shooting. Then you can limit exposure enough to answer your correct concern above that the Dick O'Kane has a lot of periscope exposure, which could cause the target to bolt and possible escorts to pay you an unwelcome visit.

On the other hand, I think a sonar only kill is the biggest thrill in Silent Hunter 4. You can tell during my whole video that there is a pall of uncertainty through the entire process, as variances in distance and bearing force you to average position points for a best guess course and speed. And you can see how the bearing shown is not perfect by any means, always leaving you to estimate his real bearing. The devs did a pretty good job for not anticipating this use of the equipment.

With escorts around, in TMO they're going to detect you anyway, if you're that close to the merchies. Shooting isn't an attempt to avoid detection, it's a race to see if you can get your shots off before they do their attack run. That means that on escorted convoys, shots tend to be taken from greater range. I've hit tankers from 2300 yards with Dick O'Kane, just as a lark. But in TMO the escorts are relentless, and they will attack you whatever evasive procedures you take. It's the cost of doing business.:arrgh!:

Dick O'Kane, while he and his crew were having the snot beat out of them by their captors, admitted that knowing what he put them through made their conduct easier to understand.

[Farinhir]

I don't know if the game has the sound contact noise coming from ship center or at the screws (I would hope the screws) but it's something to keep in mind.

In reality, the only sonar that should come from the screws is passive. The active sonar would be reflected off the entire side of the ship facing the approach of the ping. I think the sonar station would be expected to compensate as much as they can for the sound coming from the screws, based upon the movement of the target.

After reading Joe's posted link (not just the section he presented), I am wondering if there is a way to create a mod based upon the "torpedo fire control party" as outlined in chapters 4 and 5. How I am imagining it is that, if you send sonar range to TDC, the fire control party at the map would make a mark on the map at the range and bearing given. Taking several consecutive ranges would make several marks. While this might clutter the map more, it would allow for an easier time of making a cluster of marks than the captain having to choose which one to take (this is an unrealistic approach). Other things could be added to said mod, based upon the jobs listed in said chapters.

Just a thought.

And yeah, I am an RFB user right now. I switch between RFB and TM (just came back to playing this game after not doing so for many months so I have not tried TMO).

[Frederf]

Hydrophones is the only device used to get bearing information. Active sonar is strictly range only. Your hydrophone bearing should come from the screws though I grant you it's likely that the devs coded it as coming from model-center.

Sonar only runs are awesomely satisfying I agree.

Honestly I know TMO is supposed to be the "hard escort" mod but in RFB I'm consistently taking (and making) shots from 3000yds or more and the escorts are real quick to spot me anyway. 1500yds is a close shot for me if I'm attacking a convoy. Maybe I should just let myself be spotted every time. It just sucks that my get-away tactics are so poor that I eventually have to pop up and shoot them to get them off my back sometimes.

Oh and good God do I love Cuties. How many times have you thought they missed and BAM torpedo impact.

[Farinhir]

Hydrophones is the only device used to get bearing information. Active sonar is strictly range only. Your hydrophone bearing should come from the screws though I grant you it's likely that the devs coded it as coming from model-center.

What I was trying to indicate is that in real life I think the sonar operators were able to guess the theoretical center of the boat based upon movement rate. They were rather skilled after all. It is theoretical because they can only guess the rate of movement and course until the calculations are made. After the rate of movement, course, and range are calculated the only factor is the length of ship which prevents them from calling out the exact center. Knowing the range and rate (rate being the bearing rate of change) will allow them to estimate a better true bearing (almost as good as with periscope).


Honestly I know TMO is supposed to be the "hard escort" mod but in RFB I'm consistently taking (and making) shots from 3000yds or more and the escorts are real quick to spot me anyway. 1500yds is a close shot for me if I'm attacking a convoy. Maybe I should just let myself be spotted every time. It just sucks that my get-away tactics are so poor that I eventually have to pop up and shoot them to get them off my back sometimes.
I have had an easy time getting within 1500 yards in both TMO and RFB( have played one mission of TMO andwent against the Wake Island task force I think it was. It had 2 carriers and was seen moving southward towards Wake Island passing 163.25, 30'40). I think I average around 1200 yards for my shots. If I do not get close I have trouble with my shots (I am not good with manual solutions yet and that is why I am in this thread). I pretty much get whatever info I can from a great distance (approach). Then wait till the lead escorts get to around 15 from 0deg and start my approach (1/3 at first, then slow when I am in blind zone). After I get close to my desired firing range I slow to 1kt. This can get me to my desired ranges no problem. Once I fire my shots I tend to kill engines and dive, trying for a thermal layer. If I get one easily enough I can try to move for another shot. I have to work on a lot of things... but getting close is something I can do.

My biggest problem with distance shots is that I suck with the stedometer (or whatever it is called).

[ddiplock]

I have yet to try any long range shots, I usually fire from under the 1000yd mark. But I think I might try for some longer range shots as I fire manually, only problem is, you can't drag the needle on the range dial to anything more than about 1400 yards I think, which means u have to use the stadimeter :( which sucks, I dont use the stadimeter at all, i measure the distance to the target with the ruler or compass on the map.

[joegrundman]

After reading Joe's posted link (not just the section he presented), I am wondering if there is a way to create a mod based upon the "torpedo fire control party" as outlined in chapters 4 and 5. How I am imagining it is that, if you send sonar range to TDC, the fire control party at the map would make a mark on the map at the range and bearing given. Taking several consecutive ranges would make several marks. While this might clutter the map more, it would allow for an easier time of making a cluster of marks than the captain having to choose which one to take (this is an unrealistic approach). Other things could be added to said mod, based upon the jobs listed in said chapters.

Just a thought.


actually RR and i had a brief discussion along these lines some time ago. In particular, tracking reports exactly as shown in the appendix would be fantastic to have in game, but sadly i don't think this is possible unless the devs do it

[Farinhir]

actually RR and i had a brief discussion along these lines some time ago. In particular, tracking reports exactly as shown in the appendix would be fantastic to have in game, but sadly i don't think this is possible unless the devs do it

That is what I was thinking too. It is sad that we can not make such a mod without the devs releasing some sort of SDK. Either way, thanks for the link to that document. Nice info there.

Now on a side note, can anyone direct me to a thread or link that would help me learn manual targeting on U-Boat missions?

[Rockin Robbins]

You'll have to wade though the fleet boat section first, but check out the U-Boat Fast-90 section of my post at http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67 This is the original Dick O'Kane post, so don't be alarmed. Keep going and you'll find it afterward.

Fast-90 by Wazoo was the beginning of the Dick O'Kane method for fleet boats. When I got all done, interestingly, the Dick O'Kane method can be used on U-Boats, but Fast-90 is strictly a U-Boat technique. This is because of differences in TDCs.

[Frederf]

My understanding is that the German TDC has the AOB wheel connected to the scope bearing so moving the scope makes the AOB move in a way that compensates.

You are looking bearing 000 at a target with 90 AOB, you swing the scope over to 20 degrees bearing and the AOB dial automatically adjusts to 70 AOB, thus keeping the target course constant. This is supposed to allow really fast targeting of mutliple ships.

[Mush Martin]

:hmm:
You know its funny but for all that I just count release times
in my head like "steamboats" in a football game, but with three
to ten 'hikes'. By using different intervals between them to make different
spreadforms while I work the offset and both ends of the ship and
or its motion/position relative to the target/s.
by way of example
in the picture I posted earlier in this thread "eg.2a"
the back four torps are fired forty seconds prior to the first of the
front six torpedos.( I admit I use the stopwatch for long counts)
(the Mush method)
M

[Urge]

:hmm:
You know its funny but for all that I just count release times
in my head like "steamboats" in a football game, but with three
to ten 'hikes'. By using different intervals between them to make different
spreadforms while I work the offset and both ends of the ship and
or its motion/position relative to the target/s.
by way of example
in the picture I posted earlier in this thread "eg.2a"
the back four torps are fired forty seconds prior to the first of the
front six torpedos.( I admit I use the stopwatch for long counts)
(the Mush method)
M
Are you using the PK to set up a firing solution and then turning it on and leaving it on? It would appear, since the 4 stern shots(which you said you fired first) are behind the bow shots, that you set the stern torps to slow and the bow torps to fast? And the purpose of the stopwatch is...so the slow stern torps and the fast bow torps will hit in rapid succession or are you doing different firing solutions for the bow and stern tubes, or both? or it could be...wait for it... none of the above. Urge doesn't have a clue?

I'm just askin'


there are however more than two types of spreads, as such.

eg.

Parrallel

perpendicular

paired

paired parrallel
double paired parrallel

tridents and arrowheads

etc etc etc

that doesnt touch a lot of stuff but just a few examples.


Could you expand upon these and define them a little more? I, for one, would be fascinated to hear you expound in detail about setting up some of these shots. You changed my whole way of thinking about attacks and firing solutions when you posted that pic of the combo bow/stern shot in the "targeting problems" thread (the harpoon shot). I haven't worked it all out yet though. I get a hit with one or the other but not both. A video would be icing on the cake but just a little more detail would focus the pic for me at least.


advance lock or use offset angle to move impact
point back from aft to middle.


What does "advance lock " mean? when you lock the scope it is always locked in the center of the ship, Do you set up your shot without locking the target, shoot, and then lock it to advance the impact point?
Are you changing the offset for each torpedo individually while firing, in essence, a salvo at one ship? So, PK is on, fire one, clic on next torp, change offset angle and shoot?

use offset after first shot to somewhere between
.2 to .5 degrees or -.2 to -.5 degrees per torpedo
depending on target course relative to attack.
[edit] thats with PK on

or are you just setting this and leaving it for all torpedos? .2 is just a skosh off of zero It seems almost insignificant. If you kept firing, on a large ship, how many hits would/could you get walking it down the ship like that? I'm slow but I catch on eventually.

[Mush Martin]

[quote=Mush Martin]:hmm:
You know its funny but for all that I just count release times
in my head like "steamboats" in a football game, but with three
to ten 'hikes'. By using different intervals between them to make different
spreadforms while I work the offset and both ends of the ship and
or its motion/position relative to the target/s.
by way of example
in the picture I posted earlier in this thread "eg.2a"
the back four torps are fired forty seconds prior to the first of the
front six torpedos.( I admit I use the stopwatch for long counts)
(the Mush method)
M

Are you using the PK to set up a firing solution and then turning it on and leaving it on? It would appear, since the 4 stern shots(which you said you fired first) are behind the bow shots, that you set the stern torps to slow and the bow torps to fast? And the purpose of the stopwatch is...so the slow stern torps and the fast bow torps will hit in rapid succession or are you doing different firing solutions for the bow and stern tubes, or both? or it could be...wait for it... none of the above. Urge doesn't have a clue?

I'm just askin'


I both use and dont use the PK.
in this case this is a PK on attack.

in the above the attack axis is from ahead of the convoy
and 45 degrees onto their track.
that is from the convoys perspective the torps are coming
from 45 and going to 225.
that attack axis is of course leading to the launch point and
my boat which you will find oriented -45 degrees onto that axis
ie. my sub is pointing north.the convoy is heading east and the
torps are heading northwest.

there is no speed differential needed in most small convoy attacks
(slow torps fast torps)
although its useful against large groups or often if your making more
than three targets. in most cases however you just set all torps to
the best speed, in my case speed selection is usually though
not always a function of required range.

so in the above attack the forty seconds is just waiting for the
aft torps to level up after the turn to target counting the
gap as it were until the set up was such that the torps would
form a single formation,
(if you look close I was off by about a second creating a step in the line of torps)

now mind you theres some head work
on the offset angle but the timing thing is just a matter of practice.

the stopwatch is so I dont lose track of the count.

I will be back to answer the rest later its the wifes turn at the
helm here.

[Mush Martin]

there are however more than two types of spreads, as such.
eg.
Parrallel
perpendicular
paired
paired parrallel
double paired parrallel
tridents and arrowheads
etc etc etc
that doesnt touch a lot of stuff but just a few examples.

Could you expand upon these and define them a little more? I, for one, would be fascinated to hear you expound in detail about setting up some of these shots. You changed my whole way of thinking about attacks and firing solutions when you posted that pic of the combo bow/stern shot in the "targeting problems" thread (the harpoon shot). I haven't worked it all out yet though. I get a hit with one or the other but not both. A video would be icing on the cake but just a little more detail would focus the pic for me at least.

Ok so assume for a minute that you have a single line ahead formation
of four ships travelling west to east on course 90.

a parrallel shot is a line of torpedos travelling north or south
in a line that stretches east and west parrallel to the target formation.

a perpendicular shot is a line of torpedos that travels north or south
and is formed in a line running north south. perpendicular to the
target formation.

a sweeping shot is like the one in eg.2a forming a forty five degree
uhm sweep through the formation line of advance.
backward sweeping in this case, as can be seen how to nail an on
rushing formation thats going to bunch up when the first hit comes.

a forward sweep you would use against a target like Yamato or Shinano
if you wanted to melt her heart with ten torpedos through one hole.
[late edit] {this is the natural state of a pk shot.}

Paired is just doubling the number of torps per position in a
spread to increase debilitating effect against heavy targets.

now you can work out what double paired parrellel is from
there more or less ......

its a formation with five positions in it
that runs parrallel to the line of advance of the target formation
and in each of the five positions in the spread there are two
torpedos.

tridents and harpoons are just formations made to take those
literal shapes.



advance lock or use offset angle to move impact
point back from aft to middle.

What does "advance lock " mean? when you lock the scope it is always locked in the center of the ship, Do you set up your shot without locking the target, shoot, and then lock it to advance the impact point?
Are you changing the offset for each torpedo individually while firing, in essence, a salvo at one ship? So, PK is on, fire one, clic on next torp, change offset angle and shoot?


nothing so fancy sometimes I just talk funny.
advance lock method in this case would mean
taking it off lock at firing point and moving the
crosshairs back towards the bow to move the
impact point from the stern of the target back
to the middle.

regarding the offset portion of the question.
well.........sometimes.
I use the offset a lot to make shapes
but perpendicular intersecting spreads
dont need it usually.


I use offset after first shot to somewhere between
.2 to .5 degrees or -.2 to -.5 degrees per torpedo
depending on target course relative to attack.
[edit] thats with PK on

or are you just setting this and leaving it for all torpedos? .2 is just a skosh off of zero It seems almost insignificant. If you kept firing, on a large ship, how many hits would/could you get walking it down the ship like that? I'm slow but I catch on eventually.
No this just describes the method for hitting the middle of the
target instead of the screws when you dont unlock.
sometimes you have to figure it into your math for the spread.

Regards
M

[edit] sadly video making isnt among my skills.
best you can hope for is slideshows w/dissertations.

Re: your harpoon shots splitting and not hitting
together.....totally a function of accurate range
to get them to merge right.
M

[Farinhir]

You'll have to wade though the fleet boat section first, but check out the U-Boat Fast-90 section of my post at http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67 This is the original Dick O'Kane post, so don't be alarmed. Keep going and you'll find it afterward.

Fast-90 by Wazoo was the beginning of the Dick O'Kane method for fleet boats. When I got all done, interestingly, the Dick O'Kane method can be used on U-Boats, but Fast-90 is strictly a U-Boat technique. This is because of differences in TDCs.
Many thanks on the link RR. It does not tell me all that I was looking for on the U-Boat controls, but it does tell me enough to get by without the extra info. I guess I can use this and figure the rest out slowly. I just do not know how to use the notepad style controls on the periscope screen now, but it seems that I might not need that with the info on that thread. Thanks again.

Update: Thanks again for the help with that link. I had some issues with my save files (HDD problems) so I had to start my career over. Ran into that task force with the 2 carriers again. I shot at the front carrier and hit 3 out of 3 shots. The second weaved a bit and so I hit 2 of 3 shots. The second carrier ended up sinking (both hits were towards the front and front of midship. The 1st carrier was hurting but not going down after a while (with NSM it takes some time to figure that out though). Using the O'kane method I lined up for another shot and took it out (one deep runner and one hit out of 2 shots).

Looks like I finally get it...


The only problem I am now having is that I can not seem to change the torpedo speeds in the u-boat (not electric either). I am not sure what I am doing wrong. Oh well. Thanks again.

[Rockin Robbins]

Actually, in the U-Boat I haven't used the notepad controls either, but strictly executed Dick O'Kane and Fast-90 attacks. Just like you, I'll have to play with that method before I post anything on it.

Right now, Mush and I are trying to understand each others' techniques with the plan of starting a dedicated thread on torpedo spreads, showing exactly how to do each kind. I'm not sure how many people will actually use it, but for some it will open up the game tremendously.

We'll start out exclusively with fleet boats and see where that leads us. Then possibly U-Boats will follow, as I for one, have no problem with taking a spin in my U-Boat. We'll keep fleet boat and U-Boat (if we get that far) sections separate out of respect for the FBOnly and UBOnly crowds, and to avoid confusion.

Frederf, joegrundman and anyone else who would like to contribute, just PM Mush or myself and we'll include you in!