Out of Fuel

[wanderer1825]

I was sent to patrol East China seas. Set out from Pearl Harbour, refueled at Midway but get to East China with very little fuel left to get back. I was travelling at 8 knots and submerging at every opportunity to run on batteries to save fuel.
What am I doing wrong?

Tony

[Raptor1]

You do realize it takes fuel to charge the batteries, right?

[Doolittle81]

Try running surfaced at 10 Knts. Submerge only when threatened by Jap planes (usually no more than ten minutes each time).

[Lynx2069]

Whenever your charging batteries you run at flank fuel.

[OneTinSoldier]

Whenever your charging batteries you run at flank fuel.

I'm sorry to say that this doesn't sound correct. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what your saying but you should try to be a little more detailed in exactly what it is you mean, as in give an actual explanation as to how/why you run 'flank fuel'.

It seems to me that you're saying that if you run at ahead standard that fuel flow is at flank speed fuel flow in order to charge the batteries. I might not know exactly how the battery recharging works exactly, but let me explain why I think flank fuel flow is incorrect.

1) If running at ahead standard it takes longer to recharge the batteries than if running at flank. So, If I'm running at ahead standard then why does it take longer? If I really had flank fuel flow while running at ahead standard then it seems to me that it should take the same amount of time to recharge the batteries that it does if I were running at ahead flank. Or even less time actually! If it's set to flank fuel anytime the batteries are being recharged then that should mean that more energy is going towards recharging the slower I go!

2) What happens if I run at ahead flank? From your statement I would tend to think that all fuel flow is now going towards running at flank speed with no fuel flow(engine energy) left to go towards recharging the batteries. Yet, at flank speed is when the batteries are getting recharged the fastest.

3) I would think that the batteries are recharged by a belt driven alternator, and the alternator saps power from the engine when it's engaged. This is why you have a lower speed when the batteries are being recharged(as opposed to the speed you normally get when the batteries are not being recharged). The faster the engine is cranking the faster the alternator goes, and the faster the batteries get recharged.


Note: I believe WWII Skippers rarely ever ran their diesel engines at ahead flank. Only when they really 'needed' to I believe, because running at flank is hard on the engine. And you know, when your way out there in the middle of the ocean your really counting on those engines, so you take good care of them and don't run them 'hard as hell'. This includes times when the batteries needed recharging.


I could be wrong about all this and if so I hope someone will correct me, with a fairly good explanation of how, why, ect.

Regards

[Sailor Steve]

The generators were geared, two to each propellor shaft. The diesels drive the generators, which supply the electrical motors. Speed is governed by the motors. When submerged the generators are driven by the batteries, and when surfaced they are used to recharge the batteries. If two generators are driving and two are recharging, it is beneficial to have the diesels driving the recharging generators to run as fast as is feasible, even if the others are driving the boat at ahead slow. That's what he meant by "ahead flank" - not the speed of the boat, but the speed of the recharging diesels.

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/elect/chap2.htm#2A

[OneTinSoldier]

WOW! OK, thanks for that Sailor Steve! That is very interesting and a very good explanation while keeping it short.

I certainly stand corrected. :oops: :damn: That'll teach me to open my mouth when I don't enough about the subject matter to know what the hell I'm talking about.

Me --> :88) My brain on it best days --> :dead:


My apologies to Lynx2069. At least I learned something today, thanks again Sailor Steve.

Cheers

[Sailor Steve]

You're not alone, mate. Open Mouth, Insert Foot is a motto around here, and the more the posts, the greater the certainty the poster has done it.:rotfl:

[d5j55]

if the genorators were geared on the props why can't the charge themselves or atleast boosting the effincency?

[wanderer1825]

Thanks guys.
I tried again running on the surface at 9 knots, no problems all the way.
this took most of my fuel so couldn't get anywhere to re fuel.
I'm stuck in the middle of the ocean admiring the sunset and waiting for the japs to find me. :doh:

[kramxel]

Thanks guys.
I tried again running on the surface at 9 knots, no problems all the way.
this took most of my fuel so couldn't get anywhere to re fuel.
I'm stuck in the middle of the ocean admiring the sunset and waiting for the japs to find me. :doh:

Ain't there some way to refuel mid ocean?

That doesn't hold much realism...

[Raptor1]

Well, Midway is an island in the middle of nowhere, so It's kinda like refueling at sea...

[wanderer1825]

I refueiled at Midway then carried on to the East China seas. This uses most of the fuel and there's nowhere else to refuel.

[buddha95]

do an advanced search on my name and you will find a post called "sos". follow the instructions and a sub-tender will arrive and refuel you to max. something like that. I have only used it twice cause i strive for reality. Of course, if your sinking the crap out of the japs, I guess you could persuade Pearl to send you a lt. tanker somewhere relitively safe.
good luck and good hunting.

buddha95

[kylesplanet]

The generators were geared, two to each propellor shaft. The diesels drive the generators, which supply the electrical motors. Speed is governed by the motors. When submerged the generators are driven by the batteries, and when surfaced they are used to recharge the batteries. If two generators are driving and two are recharging, it is beneficial to have the diesels driving the recharging generators to run as fast as is feasible, even if the others are driving the boat at ahead slow. That's what he meant by "ahead flank" - not the speed of the boat, but the speed of the recharging diesels.

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/elect/chap2.htm#2A

But in game, if you run ahead flank when recharging, it will take a lot longer to recharge. If you go ahead flank, you put more engines online as opposed to recharging, being that we can't separate our engine controls. (separate engine controls would be nice wouldn't it.)

[kylesplanet]

I refueiled at Midway then carried on to the East China seas. This uses most of the fuel and there's nowhere else to refuel.

Have you taken any damage? You should be able to make it fine. One thing to check, make sure your batteries are charging to 100 percent. If they are not, they will keep charging, consuming a bunch more fuel than you typically would.

If they're not reaching 100 percent, manually turn off your charging and you'll quit constant charging.

[Sailor Steve]

The generators were geared, two to each propellor shaft. The diesels drive the generators, which supply the electrical motors. Speed is governed by the motors. When submerged the generators are driven by the batteries, and when surfaced they are used to recharge the batteries. If two generators are driving and two are recharging, it is beneficial to have the diesels driving the recharging generators to run as fast as is feasible, even if the others are driving the boat at ahead slow. That's what he meant by "ahead flank" - not the speed of the boat, but the speed of the recharging diesels.

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/elect/chap2.htm#2A

But in game, if you run ahead flank when recharging, it will take a lot longer to recharge. If you go ahead flank, you put more engines online as opposed to recharging, being that we can't separate our engine controls. (separate engine controls would be nice wouldn't it.)
The point is that the engines doing the charging are running at Ahead Flank, thus using more fuel, even if you are sitting still. This is about fuel usage, not boat speed.

[kylesplanet]

The generators were geared, two to each propellor shaft. The diesels drive the generators, which supply the electrical motors. Speed is governed by the motors. When submerged the generators are driven by the batteries, and when surfaced they are used to recharge the batteries. If two generators are driving and two are recharging, it is beneficial to have the diesels driving the recharging generators to run as fast as is feasible, even if the others are driving the boat at ahead slow. That's what he meant by "ahead flank" - not the speed of the boat, but the speed of the recharging diesels.

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/elect/chap2.htm#2A

But in game, if you run ahead flank when recharging, it will take a lot longer to recharge. If you go ahead flank, you put more engines online as opposed to recharging, being that we can't separate our engine controls. (separate engine controls would be nice wouldn't it.)
The point is that the engines doing the charging are running at Ahead Flank, thus using more fuel, even if you are sitting still. This is about fuel usage, not boat speed.

I think I miss-read your post. :doh: I thought you were saying to run flank while recharging to save fuel. I knew the charging engines were opened up to get the charging done.

Please look over the mentally challenged among us. (that being me:88) :88) )

[LukeFF]

do an advanced search on my name and you will find a post called "sos". follow the instructions and a sub-tender will arrive and refuel you to max. something like that. I have only used it twice cause i strive for reality

The heck are you talking about? There is no such feature in the game, and even if there was, it would be totally unrealistic.

[Rockin Robbins]

do an advanced search on my name and you will find a post called "sos". follow the instructions and a sub-tender will arrive and refuel you to max. something like that.

buddha95

Buddha, if that were true, wouldn't you just link to it?:yep:

[Sailor Steve]

What I don't understand is why he's having this problem at all. Most players report making it to their patrol zone, cruising for weeks and making it back again with no trouble.

[Bosje]

On a related note...

the shakedown missions when taking command of a new boat in 1942 tell me that the best speed for fuel conservation is ahead 2/3, but the navigator doesn't seem to agree. is the 'max range at current speed' function incorrect or is the briefing incorrect?

navigator tells me:
range at ahead standard (9-10 kts) = some 16000 miles
range at ahead 2/3 (6-7 kts) = some 12000 miles
range at full ahead (17 kts) = some 6000 miles

the 'fun' way to test this of course would be to run for 2 days at each speed and work out the distance/fuel consumed for myself but perhaps you guys have something smart to say about this :)

and will these values change as my crew gets better at their job from gaining experience?

1.4
TM
PE3

[Zero Niner]

I find the "max range at current speed" gives me the optimum in terms of cruising range at a given speed. In other words, I cruise at 9 kts to conserve fuel.

[Covak]

What I don't understand is why he's having this problem at all. Most players report making it to their patrol zone, cruising for weeks and making it back again with no trouble.
It sounds like he may have been running submerged as much as possible, which I think was the problem. The first time I played I knew absolutely nothing about WWII sub warfare and I went running around everywhere at periscope depth and flank speed :)