Ceramic hull subs?

[Frame57]

I remember a Cheif once talking about the navy experimenting with what he called "Glass" for future use in making hulls for subs. At that time I thought how cool that would be because then I could see stuff. But I think he was referring to ceramic. Now I am reading a book by Joe Buff, where these subs have ceramic hulls and can acheive tremndous depths. So I was wondering if any one else heard of theis and what your opinion of it might be?

[SUBMAN1]

Scary is my opinion.

Ceramics break, they don't bend. I would prefer to have something that can give a little when I have many tons of ocean that might want to come in on me!

Just my 2 cents.

-S

[Raptor1]

I have not heard of this, but I do know that the hull of the deepest diving submarines (The Alfas and the K-278 Komsomolets (Mike)) is made out of a titanium alloy

[SUBMAN1]

I have not heard of this, but I do know that the hulls of the deepest diving submarines (The Alfas and the K-278 Komsomolets (Mike)) is made out of a titanium alloyI'll take titanium any day! :D

-S

[Raptor1]

Me too

Ceramic has the unfortunate problem of being highly brittle, which is why it would perform rather poorly under stress (IE, in the bottom of the Ocean)...me thinks...

[Yahoshua]

However, it is worth noting that ceramic materials is a wonderful absorbing medium against shocks.

Does anyone here know if ceramics have sound-absorbing qualities?

[Raptor1]

I don't know if it has any sound-absorbing qualities, but if it does, it could theoretically be used to coat the outer skin of a submarine in a shallow-depth infiltration mission, trading depth for stealth, right?

[Hakahura]

I would suggest if this technology is being pursued then they will have moved onto "Cermets".

Remember ceramics have been used in gas turbine engines for some years.
Ceramics can be very strong in both compresion and tension and have excellent "Creep" properties.

But this is old hat in materials technology now. One possible future is Cermets.

A composite structure composed of ceramic around a metal matrix at the molecular level.

[SUBMAN1]

I would suggest if this technology is being pursued then they will have moved onto "Cermets".

Remember ceramics have been used in gas turbine engines for some years.
Ceramics can be very strong in both compresion and tension and have excellent "Creep" properties.

But this is old hat in materials technology now. One possible future is Cermets.

A composite structure composed of ceramic around a metal matrix at the molecular level.I hate to break it to ya, but that sounds like a box of sinking rocks! :D

-S

[Hakahura]

Also if I remember correctly both ceramics and cermets are used in the construction of Chobham Armor.
Developed in the UK and used on Challenger and Abrahms Main Battle Tanks. Pretty tough stuff eh?

[Raptor1]

Also if I remember correctly both ceramics and cermets are used in the construction of Chobham Armor.
Developed in the UK and used on Challenger and Abrahms Main Battle Tanks. Pretty tough stuff eh?

A tank's armor and a sub's hull need to face very different things

Can it handle the stress of deep water?

[Hakahura]

No idea at all.
Just trying to illustrate how some materials turn up in some pretty incredible places.

Shouldn't be to hard to calculate though if you've a mind for maths and can get hold of some of the stats for both cermets and very high grade steel.

My interest is piqued. I may have to do some reading.

[Raptor1]

It might be possible, It might not...

I've never heard the term "Cermet" before, I'll search around and see if I can find any stats on it ;)

[SUBMAN1]

Also if I remember correctly both ceramics and cermets are used in the construction of Chobham Armor.
Developed in the UK and used on Challenger and Abrahms Main Battle Tanks. Pretty tough stuff eh?For something designed to float, with a controlled sink rate, not so much! :D :p The keyword was 'controlled' back there!

Next you are going to push cement aircraft! Hahahaha!

-S

[Raptor1]

Also if I remember correctly both ceramics and cermets are used in the construction of Chobham Armor.
Developed in the UK and used on Challenger and Abrahms Main Battle Tanks. Pretty tough stuff eh?For something designed to float, with a controlled sink rate, not so much! :D :p The keyword was 'controlled' back there!

Next you are going to push cement aircraft! Hahahaha!

-S

Cement?

[Platapus]

Next you are going to push cement aircraft! Hahahaha!

-S

Cement Aircraft. no way........

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode66

Or a lead balloon?

http://mythbusters-wiki.discovery.com/page/Lead+Balloon?t=anon

oops Ya never can tell what scientists might work on. LoL

[Hakahura]

Cermet

Not

Cement

:damn:

[jeremy8529]

Titanium hull sounds good to me, thats what I got holding my leg together, hehe.

Back on topic though, I would underestimate a materiel just because it is used to hold flowers in. If it can be treated properly, it would be interesting to experiment with. :arrgh!:

[Raptor1]

Titanium hull sounds good to me, thats what I got holding my leg together, hehe.

Back on topic though, I would underestimate a materiel just because it is used to hold flowers in. If it can be treated properly, it would be interesting to experiment with. :arrgh!:

Yeah, but you would, if that same flower-holding material has known properties that are against your needs, right?

Normal Ceramics are pretty much out of the question for sub-hulls, too brittle, but Cermets might have some potential

[Skybird]

Can't imagine that. Even Titanium hulls were flexible and changed their nshape a bit when diving, every sub does that, more or less. Cermaics don't allow that, and that is what makes me think it is no good material for using it for the general hull itself. I would prefer to dream of semi-biologic materials. Hell, even the thing they used in the infantile TV-series "Seaquest" makes more sense to me than ceramics.

[Frame57]

I have done a little more snooping into this and a little birdy has told me that the U.S. Navy has already successfully tested an undisclosed sized pressure vessel assembly using alumina ceramic to a depth of 6000 meters. I do not know if this is with a view to using it for deeper diving torpedoes or pressure hulls for subs, but the technology seems promising.

[Skybird]

Ah it is bitter when my imagination - or lack of it - collides with the innocence of facts...

well, is it fact...? :hmm:

[Raptor1]

I have done a little more snooping into this and a little birdy has told me that the U.S. Navy has already successfully tested an undisclosed sized pressure vessel assembly using alumina ceramic to a depth of 6000 meters. I do not know if this is with a view to using it for deeper diving torpedoes or pressure hulls for subs, but the technology seems promising.
What's your source?

Has it been officially published somewhere by the USN?

Also, if it's true, is it practical for a submarine? I know several submersibles like the Trieste could go really deep but they weren't...real...submarines...

[Frame57]

No, the navy would not publish this. I will dig up a submersible website that has some of this. But the "birdy" would peck out my eyes if i told you the source. Also try googling "Alumina Ceramic hulls" and see what you get. My gues is that maybe they would use it for an new NR project or possibly a torpedo that can make 4000 feet without imploding. US Navy could have made Titanium alloy subs but deemed it un-necessary, but if the Russians or someone else like China ever does then the simple solution is having a torpedo that can make those depths. Having a combat submarine with a titanium hull then becomes a moot point.

[Raptor1]

Sorry, I can't say anything on this without a definite source, at least one stating that it was accomplished

[Skybird]

http://www.stormingmedia.us/80/8074/A807472.html

doesn't sound like construction of a mobile sub to me.

[Frame57]

Ahhh! Yes I agree on that Skybird, but technology builds on technology, does it not? The navy has more R&D stuff than we will ever know. If they score a hit on this in the future, you can bet they will be looking to employ such technology into weapons platforms of some sort.

[Skybird]

Sometimes a new technology leads into a dead end, and sometimes it is the specific purpose for which a new technology is used that is a dead end. I currently can image ceramics being used for diving bells or stationary bases in regions with tectonic stability, maybe even things like mobile factories they build in Norway (SWOPs), or even for small ROVs and AUVs. Certainly for deep-diving small weapon vehicles like torpedoes. But not for huge, manned submarines the size of military subs of the present.

But that must not mean anything, since I admit it is my imagination I talk of - and lack of.

[Frame57]

Well, I think that if it ever developes to that stage in the future. it would be a composite of a metal ceramic technology. Check out this site http://ise.bc.ca/design-hull.html Interesting site and I can see the AUV's looking much like a torpedo. International submarine design is the company.

[Skybird]

"Page cannot be found."

[Edwin]

The Russians already have a 6000+ meter diving sub - Project 210 Losharik - but it has internal spherical hulls to achieve such depths. Although it could be that they use some ceramics...

[Frame57]

"Page cannot be found."It is there, I went to it again. Has all the goodies. I ran a across it by googling "Alumina Ceramic"

[Stealth Hunter]

I have not heard of this, but I do know that the hulls of the deepest diving submarines (The Alfas and the K-278 Komsomolets (Mike)) is made out of a titanium alloyI'll take titanium any day! :D

-S

:yep:

[BettingUrlife]

As with many of these ideas, we'll just have to wait and see what happens. IIRC when the Skunkworks were planning to build a plane out of titanium many people said impossible, but they did it and what a plane it was. Some people might be out to give us a big shock with ceramics. I just refuse to say no to anything these days.

[Frame57]

Correction on the company name. It is "International Submarine Engineering LTD". They are a rather interesting company based out of canada.