McCain brings back Amnesty for illegals

[SUBMAN1]

Nice. What a bastard. Maybe Obama is the better choice. And on top of that, launced a Spanish web page on his website:

http://www.johnmccain.com/espanol/

http://www.firesociety.com/imagelib/contentitem/25037/f0f219158e118e83-4eb846f-119be142baf-7441855666339.jpg

And now he has TV ads in Spanish???? :-?

More info here:

http://www.firesociety.com/blog/100/25037/?src=111

-S

[STEED]

I hear his former prison guard is backing him.

[Iceman]

What state or country are you from Subman>....?

I hear this kind of stuff all the time and unless you hail from California,Arizona,Texas,New Mexico or Florida I don't think people really have a grasp for what is going on with the Illegal aliens in this country ,specifically the ones from South America.

You,Me or whoemever aint' going to go round up one million of these specific types of illegals and send them somewhere....it ain't going to happen...accpet it,get over it,deal with it ,move on and come up with another solution....a big wall is a clossaul flipping waste of my money to boot.

Bringing them into the fold is the only viable sloution as well as specific change moving forward.....

any other border people care to ring in...this is a dead horse by now an frankly just want them to belly up to the bar,,pay taxes,get valid id's etc etc...and become Americans.

[Tchocky]

Human migration tends to follow the lines of economic migration - open, regulated borders are better.

Regulated as in organised and controlled, much like trade laws.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Was a border person until a year ago. Took an immigration policy class at a university near the border while in school. The gist of it was: "As long as migrants can make a lot more money here, they will figure out a way to get here. Increasing enforcement in urban areas (such as San Diego) is largely a political effort, as smugglers will simply get in in more rural places that have had resources sapped to guard the urban areas. There will always be a demand for getting into this country, and increasing enforcement efforts makes it more dangerous for everybody involved. As our border forces step up enforcement with manpower and technology, potential migrants who want to get smuggled into the United States will increasingly turn to professional people who know how/have the resources to get around the increased enforcement and technology - Mexican organized crime."

PD

[SUBMAN1]

Human migration tends to follow the lines of economic migration - open, regulated borders are better.

Regulated as in organised and controlled, much like trade laws.Ours are open, but not in the normal sense - they just swim across in swarms. Your idea is fine if they went through proper channels but they don't. I don't mind Mexicans coming into my country if they go through the INS. Coming over here illegally and then claiming they have a right to be here is completely absurd! :nope:

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Was a border person until a year ago. Took an immigration policy class at a university near the border while in school. The gist of it was: "As long as migrants can make a lot more money here, they will figure out a way to get here. Increasing enforcement in urban areas (such as San Diego) is largely a political effort, as smugglers will simply get in in more rural places that have had resources sapped to guard the urban areas. There will always be a demand for getting into this country, and increasing enforcement efforts makes it more dangerous for everybody involved. As our border forces step up enforcement with manpower and technology, potential migrants who want to get smuggled into the United States will increasingly turn to professional people who know how/have the resources to get around the increased enforcement and technology - Mexican organized crime."

PDHardly the case. Shows you that Universities are biased. Your proof sits with states like Arizona where they are all going home or to other states. Their laws are working.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

What state or country are you from Subman>....?

I hear this kind of stuff all the time and unless you hail from California,Arizona,Texas,New Mexico or Florida I don't think people really have a grasp for what is going on with the Illegal aliens in this country ,specifically the ones from South America.

You,Me or whoemever aint' going to go round up one million of these specific types of illegals and send them somewhere....it ain't going to happen...accpet it,get over it,deal with it ,move on and come up with another solution....a big wall is a clossaul flipping waste of my money to boot.

Bringing them into the fold is the only viable sloution as well as specific change moving forward.....

any other border people care to ring in...this is a dead horse by now an frankly just want them to belly up to the bar,,pay taxes,get valid id's etc etc...and become Americans.Hardly once again - as is proof with AZ. They are leaving. And, considering it costs a typical state like Colorado who is the Average at $1.2 Billion per year, I'd say if that money were diverted to getting rid of them, it would be easy. Average that number to 50 states total! That's $60 Billion a year we spend on these people and that is even a conservative number! Plenty of money to round them up and get rid of the economic strain they cause.

Crap - I have to have a 4.0 to get into a University, but if I were an illegal Mexican, not only will they let me in with a 2.0, but you would get a damn grant on top of it! I'm tired of this catering.

-S

[AVGWarhawk]

Human migration tends to follow the lines of economic migration - open, regulated borders are better.

Regulated as in organised and controlled, much like trade laws.Ours are open, but not in the normal sense - they just swim across in swarms. Your idea is fine if they went through proper channels but they don't. I don't mind Mexicans coming into my country if they go through the INS. Coming over here illegally and then claiming they have a right to be here is completely absurd! :nope:

-S
I have to agree here with Subman. If you are here making the dollar, you need to pay your taxes and become a viable member of the society. Free loading is not the way to go. As far as those here already, as stated above, there is no way the will round them up. However, deny them employment and they seem to move on. What needs to be done is more illegals NOT making their way here. But, if there is a will there is a way...as the saying goes.

BTW, is this site really from the McCain camp?

[Tchocky]

Of course, the idea of how open/closed a border should be doesn't address the inadequacies of the current system.

One could say that the current good (US-Mexico border relations) is imperfectly adapted to the existing market (labour supply in Mexico and demand in the US).

[Ducimus]

It's a little late to round up all the illegals and send them packing. Without errecting the American equivlant to the berlin wall, it's a waste of time and money anyway, as they'll be right back in no time at all.


I have conceded to myself, that i live in province of Mexico. Actual Americans are becoming a minority. In many places they already are, in other places they eventually will be. Neighborhoods that were nice, classic American suberbia, are slowly degrading because of the increasing amount of mexicans moving in. Often 4 familes to a house and things like that. I like to joke that Mexico has decide to toss the treaty of Guadalope hildalgo out the window and reclaim the land we won from them back during the mexican American War. It's not far from the truth. I say this in sarchasm, but I gotta hand it to them, their invading our country, occupiing large portions of it, reaping the land for all its worth, and doing it all without firing a shot, pretty slick.

Without sarchasm, Illegals, i see as a domestic version of outsourcing. They do take jobs from Americans, but theres really nothing you can do about it. (Big buisnesses final triumph over organized labor) Being realistic for a moment, the only viable solution (that i would like) is to cut our losses, accept the damn bastards that are already here, and then erect aforementioned "Berlin wall" to keep the rest of them bastards out. However, that is an "active" project, requiring alot of patrolling, and beefing up our southern border is going to be a huge cost of money. A cost that probably nobody is going to want to pay. I wish we would.

So degressing on that thought, there really isnt anything we can do about it. The only thing that will send those people home, is if our economy crashs and they don't do any better here then they did there.

I once heard George Carlin (yes i know many of you guys hate him) said something along the lines of "placating the middle class" to keep our minds off of how "we're getting screwed by the upper 1%". If you think about it, he's right. It's the upper 1% that are ultimatly calling the shots on things like this. Buisness, big buisness, love things like domestic outsourcing. It's my beleif that the way things are going, eventually they'll be two types of people in the US. CEO's, and wallmart employees. Everything in between will have been automated, or outsourced to China, India, or Mexico. Im no economics guru, but it seems to me the "economic stimulus" to get people to get out and buy something, is a big hint at just how badly things are f*cked up. We should be a producing nation, not a consuming nation.

[PeriscopeDepth]

What state or country are you from Subman>....?

I hear this kind of stuff all the time and unless you hail from California,Arizona,Texas,New Mexico or Florida I don't think people really have a grasp for what is going on with the Illegal aliens in this country ,specifically the ones from South America.

You,Me or whoemever aint' going to go round up one million of these specific types of illegals and send them somewhere....it ain't going to happen...accpet it,get over it,deal with it ,move on and come up with another solution....a big wall is a clossaul flipping waste of my money to boot.

Bringing them into the fold is the only viable sloution as well as specific change moving forward.....

any other border people care to ring in...this is a dead horse by now an frankly just want them to belly up to the bar,,pay taxes,get valid id's etc etc...and become Americans.Hardly once again - as is proof with AZ. They are leaving. And, considering it costs a typical state like Colorado who is the Average at $1.2 Billion per year, I'd say if that money were diverted to getting rid of them, it would be easy. Average that number to 50 states total! That's $60 Billion a year we spend on these people and that is even a conservative number! Plenty of money to round them up and get rid of the economic strain they cause.

-S http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/opinion/88914.php
http://www.reuters.com/article/inDepthNews/idUSN2326988720080624

Where there's a will, there will always be a way. And it is SO much easier to play federal border games that look great on a 30 second news segment then to actually pass comprehensive reform that could help fix the problem.

PD

[Platapus]

Since most illegal aliens are only illegal because they have not undergone an arbitrary and artificially created bureaucratic procedure, perhaps the solution is to fix the bureaucratic procedure so as to allow them to become legal aliens.

At the base of it, we have people coming in to my country and working hard doing jobs that not only do American’s don’t want to do but jobs that significantly increase my standard of living. This is a good thing. I want to encourage people to come into my country and work hard to make my standard of life better.

I don’t want these workers kicked out of my country as I would then lose the benefit of their labour. However, I also don’t want these workers breaking the laws. That is not right either.

One of the more common complaints is that illegal workers don’t pay taxes. Well that is only partially true. Illegal workers don’t pay state and federal income tax but they still pay sales taxes and other fees. What is forgotten is that while they don’t pay income taxes, we, as a country are benefiting from their work. That is not without value.

My solution is two fold

1. Make it very very easy for migrant workers to be able to work in my country legally. There are not evil people. These are workers trying to earn a living for their families. This is not something we need to be fighting.

We should be encouraging not discouraging workers becoming legal. This means shortening the application times, eliminating the applications fees, providing application assistance. Sponsorship needs to be looked at. We can’t eliminate it but it could be modified to make it easier for migrant workers to change employers.

2. After we have made it very very easy for migrant workers to be able to work legally, we than should start making if very very unpleasant for workers to work illegally. This means targeting the employers. This means cracking down on illegal workers and sentencing them to work farms.

Hey migrant worker you have a choice, work here legally and reap the rewards of your labour, or work here illegally and work for the state for free. Hmmmm what do you think people will choose? However you can’t do step 2 until step 1 is complete.

Make it easy for people to do things legally and hard for them to do it illegally. This is not rocket surgery folks.

The concept of illegal aliens, with the exception of racial discrimination, mostly against the Chinese for some reason, is less than 100 years old in the United States. If you were not Chinese and you entered this country in the 1800s there was no legal or illegal status. You where just here working hard.

Clearly we need laws and we need to enforce the laws. But we should also make it easier for immigrant workers to work here legally. This means that prices will go up, but not as high as if we somehow found Americans willing to do the same jobs.

We need to recognize what these people are. What they are doing (working hard for our country) is not what is illegal. What is illegal is the way they went about it (breaking immigration laws). They are and will remain a valuable labour asset for our country.

We should focus on the root problem. It is not the people, it is the immigration system that makes it more attractive for people to break the law than to obey it.

The solution is to make it so that it is more attractive to obey the law than it is to break it.

Don’t tell a migrant worker that they need to wait 3-5 years before being able to work. They need to feed their families this week and there are jobs that are open now!

Don’t tell a migrant worker that they need to pony up immigration fees that can total hundreds of dollars. If they had a few hundreds of dollars, they probably would not be a migrant worker!

Don’t tell a migrant worker that they have to stay with one employee regardless of working conditions or risk being deported. This only encourages exploitation.

Instead tell the workers that they can expect to have their work visa approved in a matter of weeks so they can get to the jobsites when needed.

Tell the workers that now that they are documented, any immigration fees would be deducted from their pay, because now you have to pay taxes (and so does the employer)

Tell the workers that once they are documented, they are free to move to other jobs because now they have the right of negotiation.

The end result will be that we will still have these needed workers working hard for my benefit.

[mrbeast]

Some very good points there Platapus. :up:

[Ducimus]

At the base of it, we have people coming in to my country and working hard doing jobs that not only do American’s don’t want to do but jobs that significantly increase my standard of living.

I stopped reading at this paragraph. This is rhetoric, the type of rehtoric that typically comes out of the mouth of CEO's, politicians looking after special interests, or people otherwise trying to maintain and preserve domestic outsourcing to maximize their individual gains at the expense of their countrymen by way outsourcing their jobs.

[Platapus]

At the base of it, we have people coming in to my country and working hard doing jobs that not only do American’s don’t want to do but jobs that significantly increase my standard of living.

I stopped reading at this paragraph. This is rhetoric, the type of rehtoric that typically comes out of the mouth of CEO's, politicians looking after special interests, or people otherwise trying to maintain and preserve domestic outsourcing to maximize their individual gains at the expense of their countrymen by way outsourcing their jobs.


or just someone trying to get down to the basic issues :)

As for outsourcing jobs when was the last time you could find an American to mow your lawn? In my neighbourhoods you literally can't pay these kids to do it.

[Tchocky]

This is not rocket surgery folks.
:D
@ Ducimus - Give it a shot.

[SUBMAN1]

At the base of it, we have people coming in to my country and working hard doing jobs that not only do American’s don’t want to do but jobs that significantly increase my standard of living.
I stopped reading at this paragraph. This is rhetoric, the type of rehtoric that typically comes out of the mouth of CEO's, politicians looking after special interests, or people otherwise trying to maintain and preserve domestic outsourcing to maximize their individual gains at the expense of their countrymen by way outsourcing their jobs.I have to agree here. Pure rhetoric. My neighbors kids can mow my lawn. i can hire a professional landscaper if I have to. I can even do it myself.

Problem is, they have destroyed are construction industry as an example since formen would rather pay half the wage - I have some very ticked off friends because of it, and they destroy every other wage.

Rhetoric comes in the form of Americans won't do that job and thats pure bullsh*t. They did these jobs for over 200 years without a damn Mexican illegal in sight! The free market will always get what it needs, just that the current one is interested in undermining the country for the chance at greater profit - screw the future! That is the real problem here, and the illegals are just a result. You can take that thought to the bank.

-S

[PeriscopeDepth]

A compassionate free market does not exist. A free market is an economic system that exists to create profit for owners.

PD

[Ducimus]

As for outsourcing jobs when was the last time you could find an American to mow your lawn?

Nobody in my family, nor any relative i know, nor any neighbor i know, has ever hired anyone to do job that they can do themselves. Maybe im an "old school" American, but in my family, we do our own yardwork, we all pitch in to clean the house, etc. I can't imagine anyone hiring someone for something they can do themselves in a couple of hours on a saturday morning or afternoon. It's not that hard to mow a lawn, or weed some ground coverage.

[MothBalls]

Manuel Went Down To Georgia (http://share.ovi.com/media/Texas_Patriot.public/Texas_Patriot.10004)

[Ducimus]

Manuel Went Down To Georgia (http://share.ovi.com/media/Texas_Patriot.public/Texas_Patriot.10004)

That is pretty funny. I got a kick out of this one too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuFD7mIkL10

[Platapus]

As for outsourcing jobs when was the last time you could find an American to mow your lawn?

Nobody in my family, nor any relative i know, nor any neighbor i know, has ever hired anyone to do job that they can do themselves. Maybe im an "old school" American, but in my family, we do our own yardwork, we all pitch in to clean the house, etc. I can't imagine anyone hiring someone for something they can do themselves in a couple of hours on a saturday morning or afternoon. It's not that hard to mow a lawn, or weed some ground coverage.

I think you misunderstood me. I was not referring to people mowing their own lawns, I was referring to people willing to mow other people's lawns for money

As for you and your family willing to mow your own lawn? Well I can respect that. That is your choice.

However if you voluntarily remove yourself from the market (having someone mow your lawn or clean your house) than the discussion we are having does not really apply to you.

Not everyone has the ability to do such things for themselves. There are good people who do pay for someone to help them around the house :)

Anyway, my point was that there was no line of "good ole Americans" waiting for what they perceived as menial labour. No one... at all... for any price.

There are, however some very nice foreign workers who do a wonderful professional job for not a lot of money. I frankly don't see them taking any jobs away from Americans. I would be thrilled if an American in my neighbourhood would be willing to get their hands dirty for some money. I just don't see it.

[Ducimus]

I read your post as an insinuation that Americans are so lazy, that they are incapable of mowing their own lawns, or otherwise an insinuation that Americans lack work ethic, to support the standard mantra of "mexicans doing the jobs that americans won't do". It simply isn't true. Yes their are lazy people, but ill wager the majority of Americans are not, and can put down some good old fashioned elbow grease just as well, if not better then the cheap hired labor from down south. Hiring a mexican (or anyone for that matter) to mow your own lawn? Now thats lazy ( unless your in a wheelchair or something.)

[August]

Mowing lawns aside, it's a misconception that illegal immigrants do the jobs that Americans don't want to do. Americans don't want to do jobs that pay below minimum wage. A fair days wage for a fair days work.

Illegal immigrants and the slaves wages they will work for constitute unfair competition.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I keep on hearing let's build a wall.

But I don't hear much about internal enforcement. About half of illegal immigrants are visa overstays. Also, solid employer sanctions would do much to combat illegal immigration, currently all they really get is a slap on the wrist.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,198298,00.html

PD

PS. Yeah, that's right. I cited Fox News.

[danurve]

One fine day I woke up after a dream with a smile, but sadly it quickly turned to disgust.

In this dream my country had no welfare system, and my government didn't spend my tax dollars on foreign aid. Everybody seemed to pull their own weight. There was no anchor babys and we spoke English.
Opening day Turkey season was a national holiday too.

[SUBMAN1]

One fine day I woke up after a dream with a smile, but sadly it quickly turned to disgust.

In this dream my country had no welfare system, and my government didn't spend my tax dollars on foreign aid. Everybody seemed to pull their own weight. There was no anchor babys and we spoke English.
Opening day Turkey season was a national holiday too.I like your dream! :D Welfare is not bad, just that the people abusing the system are the ones who are bad.

Simple problem to fix welfare - put time limits on people who collect it and are capable of working but are not. At the very least, force them to work for the state if they are unable to find a job in time. Get something for that money. And make working for the state a bad thing like really hard work! More incentive for them to find something better!

And to the chicks that pump out kids to get a bigger welfare check - limit them to 2 kids - all others after it are not funded.

-S

[Iceman]

Cheers Platapus...great thoughts.:up:

It is not that they are taking jobs from Americans...but we need to make them Americans in the sense of making them accountable,liable,chargeable as the rest of anyone else who lives here.

Always comes back around to the money huh?

[Ducimus]

It is not that they are taking jobs from Americans..

Hold da bus.
Their foreign nationals right?
Their being hired in preference over Americans right? (see construction industry for great examples).

Mind running that "not taking jobs from americans" part past me again? Im not catching the benevolant bandwagon on that one.

Any.. ANY employer that hires a foreign national (IE, illegal alien) should suffer a severe financial penality if/when caught. If the financial risk far outweights the financial gain of hiring them, maybe they'll stop doing it.

[SUBMAN1]

It is not that they are taking jobs from Americans..
Hold da bus.
Their foreign nationals right?
Their being hired in preference over Americans right? (see construction industry for great examples).

Mind running that "not taking jobs from americans" part past me again? Im not catching the benevolant bandwagon on that one.

Any.. ANY employer that hires a foreign national (IE, illegal alien) should suffer a severe financial penality if/when caught. If the financial risk far outweights the financial gain of hiring them, maybe they'll stop doing it.About sums it up for me. Great thoughts! :up: I agree with them whole heartedly! Totally accurate and undeniable.

-S

[Ducimus]

Here's what i think the financial penality for hiring
- Foriegn nationals
- Illegal aliens
- undocumented works
- migrant workers
- day workers
- and whatever other euphimistic language people use to avoid calling them what they are

should consist of:

- Be forced to pay the difference between what they pay Americans and what they've been paying their illegals as a fee to the local state goverment. For example if the normally hire an American for 8 bucks an hour, but hire the illegal for 5, then they should pay up the missing 3. This fee should be backdated from to the initial hiring date. If the hiring date cannot be asertained, then a minimum 6, not to exceed 12 months will be used for backdating.

- Backdated wages are then taxed appropriately to the adjusted rate and then sent to the state and federal goverments as apporpiate.

- Employer pays for all adminstration fees and labor used to derive the above two fees to the appropriate agency responsible for doing the adminstrative and investigative work.

- Employer pays for the cost of deporting the illegal they hired. From gas costs, to labor used to transport the illegal, the employer shall be made to pay the bill to the associated agency responsible for deportation.

- Federal court fee for having broken the law and hired them in the first place.


Wrap all that up, and send it to the employer as a nice "little" bill, for each and every illegal they hire. Restore American jobs, and create a few in the process!:rotfl:

I bet that would be one helluva deterent!

[JetSnake]

Nice. What a bastard. Maybe Obama is the better choice. And on top of that, launced a Spanish web page on his website:

http://www.johnmccain.com/espanol/

http://www.firesociety.com/imagelib/contentitem/25037/f0f219158e118e83-4eb846f-119be142baf-7441855666339.jpg

And now he has TV ads in Spanish???? :-?

More info here:

http://www.firesociety.com/blog/100/25037/?src=111

-S


It is called pandering for votes. All of these ****bags do this. I just happen to dislike mccain less than obama.