realism issue

[Bosje]

Dear fellow Kaleuns,

there has been a lot of talk about realism of course, but a thorough read does not quite leave me with a satisfied answer to my questions, hence this thread.

I'm looking for a way to enhance my story of Freiherr Beckman's adventure in U-735 (to be read in my 'U-2 War Journal' thread)

those who have been following him will know that he reloads the tubes during engagements, uses the bearing lines from incoming radar transmissions to intercept the enemy, he engages warships in 1943 and, on the character side of things, puts his boat and crew in irresponsibly dangerous situations and then argues with the officers about it.

it all results in exciting action and keeps me on the edge of my seat when playing, but as the story is getting a bit out of hand, I'd like to enhance it by getting it as real as I can make it. So:

-did any Kaleun ever reload torpedoes during a convoy engagement?
-did radar warning receivers actually give you the bearing and approximate range to source?
-did any Kaleun ever do anything else than run away from escort groups? (ie is attacking a hunter killer group complete nonsense?)
-does anyone know if the arguments between a kaleun and his staff about doing stupidly reckless things are actually feasable?
-would he, historically, long since have been relieved from command for being irresponsible or could he be considered a truly brave hero of the Atlantic, worshipped by the men and revered by BdU?

I'm asking this because I'd like to think that it all might have actually happened, 'not so long ago', in addition to being a joy to write and, hopefully, read.

The career is currently played at 90% realism (free cam for eye candy and screenies, fubar's skin is too cool not to look at from time to time :|\\ ), manual targetting only, on GWX 2.1 With the intent of holding true to the Dead is Dead way of life.

I would very much appreciate some input from all you experienced grey wolves out there, to make this whole thing more historically accurate. Unless his current reckless style is exactly what makes it interesting, of course :arrgh!:

thanks

Bosje

[UnderseaLcpl]

Darn it I just returned 2 excellent books I could have used as a reference :damn:

I will try to answer anyway but I may be wrong on a couple.

1) Yes, torpedoes were loaded during engagements. The only thing preventing you from doing so would be if an escort was hounding you as violent maneuvers and depth charges would obviously make it too dangerous. However, lots of U-boat captains following standard tactics of staying outside the convoy and firing fans had time to shoot, shadow the convoy, reload and shoot again, at least early in the war.
2) I think the later ones did but I know for a fact Metox did not.
3) U-boat captains did engage and kill destroyers all through the war. I don't know if any went after groups of escorts per se but I remember reading about some engaging lone patrolling destroyers. I was very surprised to learn that a lot of the things I did and considered unrealistic (dogfighting destroyers) actually did occur and succeeded on many occasions.
4)This largely depends on the boat. Some captains listened to and even argued with their watch officers and even crew sometimes. Other captains were martinets whose word was law. You just have to decide how much insubordination and lax discipline you will tolerate.
Personally, when I attack a convoy, we break out the beer and sing songs, it's fun.
5) I'm not sure I understand this question. It seems to be worded strangely.
However, if you are asking what I think you are the answer is an emphatic yes.
Otto Krestchmer ring a bell? When he went to war most U-boat commanders never considered attacking on the surface at night but Krestchmer did it anyway in direct violation of S.O.P. He even got inside convoys on the surface and sometimes within a couple hundred meters of escorts. That sounds pretty reckless.
Nonetheless he was still the greatest U-boat hero Germany had, and not only was he not disciplined for his methods, he changed the way everybody else operated too. Until the radar was sufficiently developed a lot of U-boat commanders used his tactics.

A final note I really like your thread and I think it benefits greatly from your rather colorful Kaleuns.

[Bosje]

wow and there i was, thinking i was doing stupidly impossible things

thanks a lot, thats exactly the kind of information i was looking for! (got to get my hands on those books you speak of, getting increasingly fascinated with the battle of the atlantic :) got any titles for me?)

The final question was more or less this: Would a character like Freiherr Beckman have been fired and court-martialed for endangering crew and boat? Or would he have been regarded an asset to the Uboat arm for being daring and innovative?

[Jimbuna]

Clay Blairs 2 volume set: Hitler's U-boat War.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Clay Blairs 2 volume set: Hitler's U-boat War.

Damnit you beat me to the punch. The other good book I read were Wolfpack and Night wolf of the Atlantic but I'm going to have to ask about the authors. Another great one is Operation Drumbeat, I think it's by Max Hastings.
You know, we should probably have a sticky for good books. I am of the opinion that no matter how great a movie or fiction story is, the real stories of war make any hollywood hack's tales pale by comparison.

edit: I found Blair's volume two to be rather depressing. It seemed mostly to be a list of U-boats and how they met their untimely demise....

Another edit for Bosje because I messed up, Titles for you; The aforementioned Hitler's U-boat War, Night Wolf of the Atlantic, Operation Drumbeat, Wolfpack, The Sea wolves.
Please bear in mind that the older books can still be a useful source of information as long as you cross reference them with the newer volumes. Some of the stories contained in them are nothing more than U-boat urban legends and some are difficult to verify.

[Bosje]

excellent! I was gonna browse around in the city looking for books on the subject, these titles will surely help

thank you very much, kind sirs

[Jimbuna]

excellent! I was gonna browse around in the city looking for books on the subject, these titles will surely help

thank you very much, kind sirs

TBH there's a dozen or so high quality reference books I could mention (books used by us at GWX) but I'm a tad pushed for time at the moment.

If you get stuck drop me a line. http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Sailor Steve]

wow and there i was, thinking i was doing stupidly impossible things

thanks a lot, thats exactly the kind of information i was looking for! (got to get my hands on those books you speak of, getting increasingly fascinated with the battle of the atlantic :) got any titles for me?)

The final question was more or less this: Would a character like Freiherr Beckman have been fired and court-martialed for endangering crew and boat? Or would he have been regarded an asset to the Uboat arm for being daring and innovative?
The real answer to that question probably depends on a combination of results and personality. Results because high command is going to let a lot of otherwise questionable tactics slide if the captain comes up a winner every time. Personality because the crew respects the way the captain treats them just as much as they enjoy winning the day.

A good captain knows what his ship can do, and makes sure every risk is carefully calculated, as well as making sure his men know he has their safety as much in mind as his own desire for victory.

[Randomizer]

Just another couple of references U-Boats under the Swastika, Jak P. Malmann-Showell is a good technical piece as is Type VII U-Boats, Robert C. Stern. V.E. Tarrant's Last Year of the Kriegsmarine chronicles the final destruction of the U-Boat force but also includes S-Boat actions, the miniature U-Boat flotillas (Seehund's and Biber's) and the introduction of the Types XXIII and XXI into service.

Of interest in the latter is the waves of boats sent to operate in the shallow waters off the UK starting in August 1944. All together Mr. Tarrant notes seven distinct waves of Type VII and XXIII boats few of which made successful attacks and few of those actually survived.

I keep trying to replicate a successfull late 1944 inshore patrol but GWX 2.1 keeps killing me; am on boat #4 so far (a Type VII U-1010). Much like what actually happened.

Good Hunting

[1480]

Two other nice works, both from officers are Herbert A. Werner Iron Coffins and Another Place, Another Time Werner Hirschmann. The second is touted as an officer's wartime album, the last section is a tour of the boot that was captured by the RCN. Most of the photos of the interior were taken prior to it ever taking a war patrol. Werner's book is just outstanding. Blair's are canon on the subject and am still looking for more to read.