Federal Stimulus being put to good use I see!

[SUBMAN1]

BACKGROUND CHECKS ON GUN SALES UP IN MAY . . . Data released by the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) show 886,183 background checks were made on the sale of firearms in May, a 10.3 percent increase from 803,051 reported in May 2007. Adjusted state figures show background checks up 8.8 percent during the month. The increase coincides with an uptick in excise taxes reported by firearms and ammunition manufacturers, an increase in small-arms production and a slight increase in hunting license sales -- all key economic indicators for the firearms industry. Year-to-date figures show a total of 4,831,693 background checks reported by NICS.

Of interesting note here - Most serious firearm owners are in states that issue CCP's, which bypasses these checks, which means this is occuring from Joe Blow public! Good for them! :up:

-S

[Officerpuppy]

Gotta keep the Queen of England off their backyards somehow right? :lol:

[SUBMAN1]

Gotta keep the Queen of England off their backyards somehow right? :lol:Japanese Admirals were quoted as saying that the major reason for not invading the US in WWII was that most US citizens are known to be armed which would have translated into massive causulties for Japanese troops.

-S

[JetSnake]

I think I know the real reason gun purchases are increasing.

[SUBMAN1]

I think I know the real reason gun purchases are increasing.People are beginning to realize that they have to take care of themselves? Calling a cop is already to late? They are getting a clue?

-S

[CptSimFreak]

I think I know the real reason gun purchases are increasing.People are beginning to realize that they have to take care of themselves? Calling a cop is already to late? They are getting a clue?

-S

It must be something about promissed "Change" :rotfl:

[Platapus]

I think I know the real reason gun purchases are increasing.People are beginning to realize that they have to take care of themselves? Calling a cop is already to late? They are getting a clue?

-S

It must be something about promissed "Change" :rotfl:


Not sure I understand what you meant

[SUBMAN1]

Not sure I understand what you meantObama's promised change is probably a change for the worse, away from the Constitution, and away from what is right. Socialism.

-S

[PeriscopeDepth]

Gotta keep the Queen of England off their backyards somehow right? :lol:Japanese Admirals were quoted as saying that the major reason for not invading the US in WWII was that most US citizens are known to be armed which would have translated into massive causulties for Japanese troops.

-S

OT so I'll leave it to this post. But also it being logistically impossible had something to do with it, even without the gun toting populace. Hawaii would have been a stretch to begin with, let alone the West coast.

PD

[SUBMAN1]

OT so I'll leave it to this post. But also it being logistically impossible had something to do with it, even without the gun toting populace. Hawaii would have been a stretch to begin with, let alone the West coast.

PDI agree! Deal is though, they wanted California - Oil. Thats why it was looked at.

-S

[Yahoshua]

Had the Japanese taken Hawaii they probably could've done incredibly well over the long run. Seeing as most of the BB and BC and LC that were damaged there were salvaged or repaired and sent out onto active duty. Seizing those ships before they can be repaired would've been a tremendous blow to the U.S. Pacific fleet let alone the attack on PH itself.

okay, sry for the OT post.

[August]

Had the Japanese taken Hawaii they probably could've done incredibly well over the long run. Seeing as most of the BB and BC and LC that were damaged there were salvaged or repaired and sent out onto active duty. Seizing those ships before they can be repaired would've been a tremendous blow to the U.S. Pacific fleet let alone the attack on PH itself.

okay, sry for the OT post.

Not to mention adding a few thousand miles to the distance we had to travel to get to the front line. Pearl was vital to our war effort in the pacific for sure.

[Stealth Hunter]

Gotta keep the Queen of England off their backyards somehow right? :lol:Japanese Admirals were quoted as saying that the major reason for not invading the US in WWII was that most US citizens are known to be armed which would have translated into massive causulties for Japanese troops.

-S

I can already picture some cow-poking town in the Midwestern United States having World War I vets gathering up Civil War family swords and rifles and shotguns preparing for the invasion. Probably would get horses together, too!

[PeriscopeDepth]

Had the Japanese taken Hawaii they probably could've done incredibly well over the long run. Seeing as most of the BB and BC and LC that were damaged there were salvaged or repaired and sent out onto active duty. Seizing those ships before they can be repaired would've been a tremendous blow to the U.S. Pacific fleet let alone the attack on PH itself.

okay, sry for the OT post.
Maybe we should start another thread. But that is a VERY BIG "if".

PD

[PeriscopeDepth]

Gotta keep the Queen of England off their backyards somehow right? :lol:Japanese Admirals were quoted as saying that the major reason for not invading the US in WWII was that most US citizens are known to be armed which would have translated into massive causulties for Japanese troops.

-S
I can already picture some cow-poking town in the Midwestern United States having World War I vets gathering up Civil War family swords and rifles and shotguns preparing for the invasion. Probably would get horses together, too!
The majority of armies at the time were horse drawn.

PD

[Stealth Hunter]

In the U.S.?

:hmm:

Cavalry units had pretty much been deemed obsolete by that time, and the rest of the world realised it during World War I with the invention of the tank and airplane.

[PeriscopeDepth]

In the U.S.?

:hmm:

Cavalry units had pretty much been deemed obsolete by that time, and the rest of the world realised it during World War I with the invention of the tank and airplane. The US army was actually one of the least dependent on horses after industry was mobilized for war. The premier army of the time, the Wehrmact is included. Infantry marching alongside horses carrying heavy weapons.

I am not talking about cavalry. Horses were the primary form of moving equipment.

PD

[Stealth Hunter]

True. The German march under the Arc 'd Triomphe comes to mind.

[SUBMAN1]

I can already picture some cow-poking town in the Midwestern United States having World War I vets gathering up Civil War family swords and rifles and shotguns preparing for the invasion. Probably would get horses together, too!Hardly. What do you think? With all the guns America buys around here that Americans would be relying on 100 year old artifacts? Come on already! America is and has been for ages the worlds most heavily armed society. Most Americans probably had better rifles than the standard issue for the Japanese army at the time!

-S

[mrbeast]

I can already picture some cow-poking town in the Midwestern United States having World War I vets gathering up Civil War family swords and rifles and shotguns preparing for the invasion. Probably would get horses together, too!Hardly. What do you think? With all the guns America buys around here that Americans would be relying on 100 year old artifacts? Come on already! America is and has been for ages the worlds most heavily armed society. Most Americans probably had better rifles than the standard issue for the Japanese army at the time!

-S

Japan never invaded the US due to logistical problems and the small problem of the USN, USMC and US Army. Hawaii wasn't a viable target for invasion either as it was within range of US bombers and far from any Japanese held territory; the supply lines would have been far too long and vulnerable for any effective occupation to take place. The raid on Pearl was cut short by Nagumo partly due to his concerns over the amount of fuel they had left to get back to Japanese controlled waters, imagine the amounts needed to sustain an invasion!

I doubt that they were scared off because there were high levels of gun ownership in the US. Certainly in planning that would be a consideration, but a motly crew of civilians toting an assortment of hunting rifles, pistols etc would not have been much of a match for a trained and disciplined army. The other point to add is that most countries during the war raised some form of civilian defence force, e.g. the Home Guard in the UK; what were they if not armed civilians? There has never been any suggestion that the Germans found that this fact made Britain anymore daunting a prospect to attack.

[August]

I can already picture some cow-poking town in the Midwestern United States having World War I vets gathering up Civil War family swords and rifles and shotguns preparing for the invasion. Probably would get horses together, too!Hardly. What do you think? With all the guns America buys around here that Americans would be relying on 100 year old artifacts? Come on already! America is and has been for ages the worlds most heavily armed society. Most Americans probably had better rifles than the standard issue for the Japanese army at the time!

-S
Japan never invaded the US due to logistical problems and the small problem of the USN, USMC and US Army. Hawaii wasn't a viable target for invasion either as it was within range of US bombers and far from any Japanese held territory; the supply lines would have been far too long and vulnerable for any effective occupation to take place. The raid on Pearl was cut short by Nagumo partly due to his concerns over the amount of fuel they had left to get back to Japanese controlled waters, imagine the amounts needed to sustain an invasion!

I doubt that they were scared off because there were high levels of gun ownership in the US. Certainly in planning that would be a consideration, but a motly crew of civilians toting an assortment of hunting rifles, pistols etc would not have been much of a match for a trained and disciplined army. The other point to add is that most countries during the war raised some form of civilian defence force, e.g. the Home Guard in the UK; what were they if not armed civilians? There has never been any suggestion that the Germans found that this fact made Britain anymore daunting a prospect to attack.

I think both of you are right imo. I think having to deal with a well armed and hostile populace was just one more reason for them not to attempt an invasion. Government rarely make such momentus decisions based on a single consideration. Life is way more complicated than that.

[Platapus]

A bunch of years ago there was this gang of home invaders operating in the state of Maryland. When they were finally caught, they were asked why did they only hit houses in Maryland and forgo the more wealthy homes in Virginia.

Their reply was that Virginia laws make it easier to own and carry guns.

Criminals love gun laws. Gun laws make criminal's lives easier

[SUBMAN1]

Hardly. What do you think? With all the guns America buys around here that Americans would be relying on 100 year old artifacts? Come on already! America is and has been for ages the worlds most heavily armed society. Most Americans probably had better rifles than the standard issue for the Japanese army at the time!

-S
Japan never invaded the US due to logistical problems and the small problem of the USN, USMC and US Army. Hawaii wasn't a viable target for invasion either as it was within range of US bombers and far from any Japanese held territory; the supply lines would have been far too long and vulnerable for any effective occupation to take place. The raid on Pearl was cut short by Nagumo partly due to his concerns over the amount of fuel they had left to get back to Japanese controlled waters, imagine the amounts needed to sustain an invasion!

I doubt that they were scared off because there were high levels of gun ownership in the US. Certainly in planning that would be a consideration, but a motly crew of civilians toting an assortment of hunting rifles, pistols etc would not have been much of a match for a trained and disciplined army. The other point to add is that most countries during the war raised some form of civilian defence force, e.g. the Home Guard in the UK; what were they if not armed civilians? There has never been any suggestion that the Germans found that this fact made Britain anymore daunting a prospect to attack.
I think both of you are right imo. I think having to deal with a well armed and hostile populace was just one more reason for them not to attempt an invasion. Government rarely make such momentus decisions based on a single consideration. Life is way more complicated than that.
I think this says it all:

...Bob had told us that he’d been aboard the USS Constellation—he remembered the year as 1960—when he had been part of joint maneuvers conducted with what were by then called the Japanese Defense Forces. Over dinner and drinks, with Japanese and American naval officers talking shop, many of the WWII veterans, the question had come up, why didn’t the Japanese invade what they must have recognized as the wide open West Coast of the United States at the beginning of that war?


The officer had replied that his country was well aware that there was a high density of armed citizenry in America, even state championships for private citizens in the use of military rifles, and that the Japanese were not fools to set foot in such quicksand. Menard, even then a man committed to Second Amendment rights, naturally kept a vivid memory of the conversation....

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Hmm - seems even Yamamoto had an opinion:

"You cannot invade the mainland United States.
There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
(Japanese Navy)

-S

[mrbeast]

The invasion of the US was never a Japanese war aim; infact war with the US was not even aim! It was British, French and Dutch colonies that were the main target.

The Japanese were relying on the Pearl Harbour raid to neutralise US power in the Pacific and push America towards leaving Japan a free hand in East Asia.

The bottom line is that there was no plan to invade the US mainland armed populace or no.

[SUBMAN1]

The invasion of the US was never a Japanese war aim; infact war with the US was not even aim! It was British, French and Dutch colonies that were the main target.

The Japanese were relying on the Pearl Harbour raid to neutralise US power in the Pacific and push America towards leaving Japan a free hand in East Asia.

The bottom line is that there was no plan to invade the US mainland armed populace or no.BS. Care to support your argument with evidence? If the US were not armed to the teeth, then I can tell you that they would have tried.

Regardless, I proved my point from above. Its not that they didn't want to, it is because it was suicide. Still is.

-S

[Platapus]

Well do we have access to any documentation of a sincere plan to invade the mainland?

I know that Japan engaged in limited shelling and balloon bombing of the West coast.

From my readings I always got the impression the intent was to constrain the American forces in the Pacific, that is prevent American interference in Japan's plans for SE Asia and East Asia.

It would be interesting to see if there were any viable war plans for the invasion of the continental United States and see how they expected to do it.

The problems for both side of the Pacific would be logistics. Unless the Japanese could secure a base either in Canada or Mexico, logistically supporting a land invasion of the US even from Pearl would be very difficult.

[mrbeast]

The invasion of the US was never a Japanese war aim; infact war with the US was not even aim! It was British, French and Dutch colonies that were the main target.

The Japanese were relying on the Pearl Harbour raid to neutralise US power in the Pacific and push America towards leaving Japan a free hand in East Asia.

The bottom line is that there was no plan to invade the US mainland armed populace or no.BS. Care to support your argument with evidence? If the US were not armed to the teeth, then I can tell you that they would have tried.

Regardless, I proved my point from above. Its not that they didn't want to, it is because it was suicide. Still is.

-S

Subman, posting a couple of quotes off websites does not constitute proof of anything.

Besides I might ask you the same question, where is the evidence that Japan seriously planned and intended to invade the US? Where are the plans?

[PeriscopeDepth]

The invasion of the US was never a Japanese war aim; infact war with the US was not even aim! It was British, French and Dutch colonies that were the main target.

The Japanese were relying on the Pearl Harbour raid to neutralise US power in the Pacific and push America towards leaving Japan a free hand in East Asia.

The bottom line is that there was no plan to invade the US mainland armed populace or no.BS. Care to support your argument with evidence? If the US were not armed to the teeth, then I can tell you that they would have tried.

Regardless, I proved my point from above. Its not that they didn't want to, it is because it was suicide. Still is.

-S
Subman, posting a couple of quotes off websites does not constitute proof of anything.

Besides I might ask you the same question, where is the evidence that Japan seriously planned and intended to invade the US? Where are the plans?
They didn't. At least during WWII.

They planned to stab the American fleet in the eye and sue for peace on terms that favored them. When that didn't work out, they hoped to fight a prolonged defensive action that they hoped the American populace would tire of eventually.

PD

[SUBMAN1]

Who ya gonna believe? The speculators on history? Or words taken from the horses mouth as to why the Japanese should now invade? The thought was abbandoned on Yamamoto's recomendation. He also pushed for not attacking Pearl Harbour, but lost that battle.

At least I presented something. Why not give me backup of your opinions with Japanese history taken from the Japanese at the time? Opinions are pretty much worthless here it seems. And common I might add. Link me to hisotric speeches done by the Japanese during WWII!!! I see 'none'.

-S

[PeriscopeDepth]

Who ya gonna believe? The speculators on history? Or words taken from the horses mouth as to why the Japanese should now invade? The thought was abbandoned on Yamamoto's recomendation. He also pushed for not attacking Pearl Harbour, but lost that battle.

At least I presented something. Why not give me backup of your opinions with Japanese history taken from the Japanese at the time? Opinions are pretty much worthless here it seems. And common I might add. Link me to hisotric speeches done by the Japanese during WWII!!! I see 'none'.

-S
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AMH/AMH/AMH-23.html
Japan entered World War II with limited aims and with the intention of fighting a limited war.

They never planned to invade the United States during WWII. They never intended to fight a prolonged battle, as they knew they couldn't win such a fight. They intended to knock the American fleet out, grab what resources they could in SE Asia, and negotiate a peace on favorable terms.

By the way, I highly reccomend "Sea of Thunder: Four Commanders and the Last Great Naval campaign 1941-1945" by Evan Thomas. Very readable, shows the campaign from both sides using personal documents from several commanders.

PD

[August]

They planned to stab the American fleet in the eye and sue for peace on terms that favored them. When that didn't work out, they hoped to fight a prolonged defensive action that they hoped the American populace would tire of eventually.

PD

Pearl wasn't the only US military asset invaded in Dec '41. What about Wake island and the Philippines?

[Platapus]

They planned to stab the American fleet in the eye and sue for peace on terms that favored them. When that didn't work out, they hoped to fight a prolonged defensive action that they hoped the American populace would tire of eventually.

PD

Pearl wasn't the only US military asset invaded in Dec '41. What about Wake island and the Philippines?


yeah everyone forgets the other targets on 7 Dec

[PeriscopeDepth]

They planned to stab the American fleet in the eye and sue for peace on terms that favored them. When that didn't work out, they hoped to fight a prolonged defensive action that they hoped the American populace would tire of eventually.

PD
Pearl wasn't the only US military asset invaded in Dec '41. What about Wake island and the Philippines?
True, they certainly got hit too. And the Brits in Singapore.

PD

[Lurchi]

Besides I might ask you the same question, where is the evidence that Japan seriously planned and intended to invade the US? Where are the plans?
He won't deliver because there weren't any. Invasion was impossible and the japanese knew it right from the start. They never even tried to seize Hawaii which would have been necessary before one could even think about this next step.

The japanese navy was against the whole war anyway and the army favoured the drive south and used all available resources to it which were already limited. I don't think that the japanese were so much impressed by a few rifles and some handguns ...

[August]

a few rifles and some handguns ...

Yeah keep thinking that... :lol:

[JgzMan]

Certainly in planning that would be a consideration, but a motly crew of civilians toting an assortment of hunting rifles, pistols etc would not have been much of a match for a trained and disciplined army.

While I have no data concerning the intentions of Imperal Japan, I find this sentence rather suspect. While I'm sure the technology had moved on a bit, that sounds like somthing a British general might say in 1776 or so.

[mrbeast]

Certainly in planning that would be a consideration, but a motly crew of civilians toting an assortment of hunting rifles, pistols etc would not have been much of a match for a trained and disciplined army.

While I have no data concerning the intentions of Imperal Japan, I find this sentence rather suspect. While I'm sure the technology had moved on a bit, that sounds like somthing a British general might say in 1776 or so.

Well considering that the British Army won most of the battles in the War of Independance, I'd day that that 'British General' would be reasonably vinicated by his assesment. ;)

[August]

Well considering that the British Army won most of the battles in the War of Independance, I'd day that that 'British General' would be reasonably vinicated by his assesment. ;)

They still celebrate Evacuation Day in Boston...

[mrbeast]

Well considering that the British Army won most of the battles in the War of Independance, I'd day that that 'British General' would be reasonably vinicated by his assesment. ;)

They still celebrate Evacuation Day in Boston...

Ok, we won the battles but lost the war! :D

So I guess we'll call it evens! :hmm:

[Platapus]

Well considering that the British Army won most of the battles in the War of Independance, I'd day that that 'British General' would be reasonably vinicated by his assesment. ;)


in studying the battles, one could say that Washington retreated faster than the British could advance and maintain logistics :)

[FIREWALL]

Certainly in planning that would be a consideration, but a motly crew of civilians toting an assortment of hunting rifles, pistols etc would not have been much of a match for a trained and disciplined army.

While I have no data concerning the intentions of Imperal Japan, I find this sentence rather suspect. While I'm sure the technology had moved on a bit, that sounds like somthing a British general might say in 1776 or so.

Well considering that the British Army won most of the battles in the War of Independance, I'd day that that 'British General' would be reasonably vinicated by his assesment. ;)


"That General" Lost the most important Battle.

THE FINAL ONE. :p :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

To a motly crew of civilians toting an assortment of hunting rifles, pistols.

[mrbeast]

Certainly in planning that would be a consideration, but a motly crew of civilians toting an assortment of hunting rifles, pistols etc would not have been much of a match for a trained and disciplined army.

While I have no data concerning the intentions of Imperal Japan, I find this sentence rather suspect. While I'm sure the technology had moved on a bit, that sounds like somthing a British general might say in 1776 or so.

Well considering that the British Army won most of the battles in the War of Independance, I'd day that that 'British General' would be reasonably vinicated by his assesment. ;)


"That General" Lost the most important Battle.

THE FINAL ONE. :p :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

To a motly crew of civilians toting an assortment of hunting rifles, pistols.

Have you ever heard of the Continental Army?

[Platapus]

And did the "americian" forces defeat the British, or did the British government just decide that the war was too expensive and not worth it?