View Full Version : Don't shoot at books you don't know...
DeepIron
05-19-08, 03:54 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.quran/index.html
I've been following this story and now this:
Iraq's most powerful Sunni Arab political party on Monday said a U.S. soldier's desecration of the Quran, the Muslim holy book, requires the "severest of punishments," not just an apology and a military reassignment.
Screw 'em... Time to take our marbles and go home... These people simply don't operate in reality.
"I have asked that first this apology be officially documented; second a guarantee from the U.S. military to inflict the maximum possible punishment on this soldier so it would be a deterrent for the rest of the soldiers in the future."
How insipid and stupid. Deterrent my as* ! The American was there to help give back the country to the Iraqis and they're more worried about a book...:damn:
Tchocky
05-19-08, 03:56 PM
I dunno, take 200,000 guys, not all of them are gonna be amber-waves-of-grain apple pie types.
Still, this is nasty and it won't help the situation a bit.
I doubt we're going to find a mandated policy of shooting the Koran, anyone?
DeepIron
05-19-08, 04:02 PM
I dunno, take 200,000 guys, not all of them are gonna be amber-waves-of-grain apple pie types.
Still, this is nasty and it won't help the situation a bit.
I doubt we're going to find a mandated policy of shooting the Koran, anyone?
What bugs me is the insistence of the Iraqis to punish this guy further... :-?
It's a book!
An evil one granted, but still only a book. You've got to wonder, it's not like there's a shortage of copies, most maniacs have one, come to think of so have I:o
Tchocky
05-19-08, 04:11 PM
It's a book!
An evil one granted, but still only a book. You've got to wonder, it's not like there's a shortage of copies, most maniacs have one, come to think of so have I:o
Choppers inbound
Platapus
05-19-08, 06:25 PM
What the soldier did was reprehensible and unprofessional. The actions of the military with respect to this individual were appropriate. He was removed from his duty and his career is effectively ended.
The apology by General Hammond was sincere and appropriate.
The matter should end there.
Neither the United States Military nor this individual soldier are Muslim nor governed by Islamic law. Any punishment appropriate for a Muslim committing this act would be inappropriate for the soldier.
The act of the soldier was stupid and clearly warranted his removal.
I am hoping that the US military is further educating its troops so such stupid acts are not committed in the future.
This Islamic political party needs to accept the apology.
WE ARE NOT AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY
Our laws are different.
They need to understand and accept this. They really do.
richardphat
05-19-08, 07:24 PM
Arg :damn: I agree with you DeepIron!
Tchocky
05-19-08, 07:32 PM
WE ARE NOT AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY
Our laws are different.
They need to understand and accept this. They really do.
Logical, yeah. But I'm trying to think of how an Iraqi, possibly a religious one, might see this.
The soldier wasn't in the US when this happened, was he?
He was part of an occupying army. I think that's the cause of a lot of the anger here.
We bomb your country without reason, then demand that you respect our rules.
They need to accept this, whereas we dont need to accept anything.
bradclark1
05-19-08, 07:39 PM
Now let me get this straight:
It's ok for Muslims to blow up mosques filled with worshipers.
It's okay for mosques to be used as ammo dumps.
It's okay to use mosques as bunkers.
It's okay to use mosques as safe houses,
but it's a death sentence for an American to shoot a Koran.
Got it!
I'm glad I have perspective.
DeepIron
05-19-08, 07:43 PM
Now let me get this straight:
It's ok for muslims to blow up mosques filled with worshippers.
It's okay for mosques to be used as ammo dumps.
It's okay to use mosques as bunkers.
It's okay to use mosques as safe houses,
but it's not alright to shoot a Koran.
Got it!That was the "reality" part I mentioned... These people commit crimes against their own (Muslim against Muslim) and they get all bent out of shape about this? :doh:
TteFAboB
05-20-08, 05:42 AM
They aren't Muslims, they're politicians. They'll squeeze this to get as much juice as they can.
bradclark1
05-20-08, 07:44 AM
Yeah but there you're falling in simplification, the people asking for the punishment are not the ones who blow up mosques so this makes the argument a bit irrelevant.
How do you know? My limited understanding of Iraq and religion is the vocal are the more dangerous.
DeepIron
05-20-08, 08:59 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7410367.stm
Prime Minister Nouri Maliki's office said Mr Bush had promised to send the accused American sniper to trial.Spineless worm... I'd tell the Iraqis that the soldier has faced all the discipline he's gonna face and that's it. Period.
bradclark1
05-20-08, 10:23 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7410367.stm
Prime Minister Nouri Maliki's office said Mr Bush had promised to send the accused American sniper to trial.Spineless worm... I'd tell the Iraqis that the soldier has faced all the discipline he's gonna face and that's it. Period.
Sounds like a case for the ACLU, but they wouldn't touch it out of fear. If they court-martial him wonder what the charge would be? Why is Bush even getting involved if he is. Pretty stupid.
DeepIron
05-20-08, 10:33 AM
Why is Bush even getting involved if he is. Pretty stupid.My spin? Dubb-Ya would sell out his mother and convert to Islam if he thought it would help. He's in this "Iraqi War" thing so deep, all he can do is try and mollify the Iraqis and beg forgiveness... Problem is, he's dragging the US down with him when he makes statements like this...
Platapus
05-20-08, 05:19 PM
They aren't Muslims, they're politicians. They'll squeeze this to get as much juice as they can.
Ding! we have a winner!
Ducimus
05-20-08, 06:53 PM
I have to admit, if i were stuck in a hot, stinking hell hole 3rd world country for umpteen months, with people wanting to kill me, IED's blowing up someone i know or heard of every now and then, getting shot at, etc, i think id probably use the koran for target practice too. Infact, i think its pretty damn funny. The truth is, GI's do alot of stupid **** when their frustrated and/or bored. Only difference his little antic/prank managed to escalate past those closest to him. When you do stupid ****, you do it where only your closest buddies will see and no one else.
Jacky Fisher
05-20-08, 07:57 PM
This is the kind of thing that wins Al-Qaida about a hundred new recruits a day.
Was this soldier briefed at all on the nuances of the local culture.
Platapus
05-20-08, 08:16 PM
This is the kind of thing that wins Al-Qaida about a hundred new recruits a day.
Was this soldier briefed at all on the nuances of the local culture.
And this is why we may win battles but may lose the insurgent war. :nope:
This is the kind of thing that wins Al-Qaida about a hundred new recruits a day.
Was this soldier briefed at all on the nuances of the local culture.
And this is why we may win battles but may lose the insurgent war. :nope:
Don't worry. If we're so worried over how the Muslim world will react to such a trivial incident that the President of the United States has to personally apologize for it then this war won't be over until one side or the other is totally wiped out. I just don't think we can coexist with people that would kill or jail a person just for destroying a book.
GlobalExplorer
05-21-08, 02:18 AM
Don't worry. If we're so worried over how the Muslim world will react to such a trivial incident that the President of the United States has to personally apologize for it then this war won't be over until one side or the other is totally wiped out. I just don't think we can coexist with people that would kill or jail a person just for destroying a book.
True. For sure it offends them, like it offends other people if the bible is desecrated, but they should be able to express this in a civil manner. Imo the apology is ok, as the incident was unnecessary, but at the same time it was trifle that the president should not have to deal in.
HunterICX
05-21-08, 03:14 AM
True. For sure it offends them, like it offends other people if the bible is desecrated, but they should be able to express this in a civil manner. Imo the apology is ok, as the incident was unnecessary, but at the same time it was trifle that the president should not have to deal in.
too bad they are unable to do so, as the so called Religious leaders fuel the fire so big you see them go monkey like on the streets yelling for death and destruction of the western world.
the incident was indeed uncalled for, its just a book leave it alone.
because with a bit of common sense those muslim extremist are always waiting for a western person to do something to their holy items.
HunterICX
Kazuaki Shimazaki II
05-21-08, 08:54 AM
I find it interesting that the entire discussion is centered over the issue of the Iraqis demanding the man's head.
It is a sign of Zeitgeist that nobody seems to see how the US decision and the Iraqi demand are two points on the same ladder.
It seems that most people here agree that the Koran is worth a career. The Iraqis contend it is worth a life.
The justification of a Koran (or Bible, or Sutra, or whatever) being worth a career is IMHO the same one that the Iraqis use to argue for a life. Neither can really be justified - the Koran (and Bible, and sutra ... etc), is after all, a book.
If the target had not been labeled "religious", the man would likely have been commended for his initiative in self-training, or at least allowed to pursue his recreation - it is no worse than throwing darts at portraits, for example.
But if you can arbitrarily raise the value of a book to being a large chunk of a human life (blowing someone's career arguably qualifies for this given the importance of a career to livelihood), then why not a full life. It is the same "logic" in different extents.
Just my two cents.
bradclark1
05-21-08, 08:58 AM
Just my two cents.
What he said!
Or
Me too!
And me! Now if it was a good book...
TheSatyr
05-21-08, 12:15 PM
And how would the religious right wingnuts react if the insurgency was using the Bible for target practice? Probably the same way.
Tchocky
05-21-08, 12:20 PM
And how would the religious right wingnuts react if the insurgency was using the Bible for target practice? Probably the same way.
Funny, I'd just read this (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/20/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-New-Testament-Burned.php) story
Subnuts
05-21-08, 12:29 PM
It's a shame I couldn't have lended that soldier my copy of Scorpion Down.
What - is the joke getting old? :rotfl:
The reaction is far more about the political situation than about books or religion.
Lots of people looking for something little to get angry about because it is easier to
focus anger on small, specific things than it is on the broader situation.
Blacklight
05-21-08, 01:30 PM
In that part of the world, you could probably get arrested and or put to death if you tossed an old used copy of the Koran into the trash when you purchased a new copy.
And how would the religious right wingnuts react if the insurgency was using the Bible for target practice? Probably the same way.
What, demand that the perp be jailed or even killed? I doubt it. Maybe a few at the very fringe but if you look hard enough you can find examples of just about anything.
Jewish Nazis, straight San Franciscans, even anti-socialist Democrats... ;)
Hakahura
05-21-08, 03:08 PM
Yes to Western sensibilties it's an over-reaction. However.....
Writing as a seviceman who's served many times all overthe Middle East.....
This guy should have known better.
He will have received many briefings prior to deployment on just this kind of behaviour.
All Troops, from all services and all countries know what is and is'nt expected of them.
Not to say this kind of childish letting of steam is unique.
JUST DON'T GET CAUGHT !
End of the day it's their country we have to respect their rules, laws and culture.
Part and parcel of travelling round the world.
After all whenever I'm on exercise in the USA, the unreasonable heathens expect me to drive on the wrong side of the road! Unbelievable!
Don't even get me started on the fact that some of my younger collegues can't get served in bars because the're not 21! Infidels!
Finished my rant now.
Zayphod
05-21-08, 03:25 PM
This is the kind of thing that wins Al-Qaida about a hundred new recruits a day.
Was this soldier briefed at all on the nuances of the local culture.
Obviously not. When I joined the USAF in 1971, one of the things they mentioned in Basic Training is that you represent the USA. (As George Carlin once put it, "Remember: You represent your row."*)
You are a diplomat, whether or not you want to be. Your actions reflect either good or bad on our country, our flag, and what it stands for. Embarrass your country while in the service of the military, and your ass is ours.
Apparently, someone was just not going to let that little bit of info sink in.
* For those not familiar with the concept, in schools years ago (don't know if they still do this), the person at the head of each row of students "represented" that row of students. They were the first to get pages handed to them by the teacher for passing out to the students behind them, and were the ones that received the pages handed up from the rear for retrieval by the teacher.
Zayphod
05-21-08, 03:43 PM
And how would the religious right wingnuts react if the insurgency was using the Bible for target practice? Probably the same way.
Funny, I'd just read this (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/20/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-New-Testament-Burned.php) story
Still, the concept of a Jew burning books is abhorrent to many in Israel because of the association with Nazis torching piles of Jewish books during the Holocaust of World War II.
Interesting. The phrase "We have become that which we hate the most." comes to mind.
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