boat wrongly changes its heading when in reverse

[Webster]

In SH4 the direction the boat goes in (the heading) has always been based on the direction in relation to the bow. if you head at a bearing of 320 degrees then your bow points to 320 degrees.

now whats happening with ubm patch 1.5 when you put the engines in reverse, instead of the boat maintaining that heading but reversing the direction of travel it will make a 180 degree turn and goes in the wrong direction.

it works fine with 1.4 but not 1.5 so does anyone know how to fix this glitch?


i have no mods or changes to the game and am playing stock ubm 1.5

[zylark]

There was (is?) a bug in SH4 pre UBM that did as you describe. I learned quickly to always zero the rudders before attempting going backwards. Now I just do it as a matter of habit, so never been bothered with it since.

I've also learned not to plot a course on the nav map when in silent running and chased by enemy DDs :D

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, zylark, that explains why I was in kleine fahrt zurück for 20 minutes straight yesterday and my heading did not reverse. Do I understand you correctly that if you order a compass course and maintain it, if you put engines into reverse the boat will spin 180º?

[Webster]

Do I understand you correctly that if you order a compass course and maintain it, if you put engines into reverse the boat will spin 180º?

yes, that is exactly what happens. if you order to put engines in reverse, that is all that should happen, you did not order a new heading on the opposit bearing just by reversing engines so your crew should not be altering coarse without orders to do so. its the navy and you dont think or decide for yourself, you just follow specific orders only. change in engine speed or direction has nothing to do with the heading the boat was ordered to follow.

[Nokia]

Well, zylark, that explains why I was in kleine fahrt zurück for 20 minutes straight yesterday and my heading did not reverse. Do I understand you correctly that if you order a compass course and maintain it, if you put engines into reverse the boat will spin 180º?


If you are turning to a heading ordered on the compass or order a new heading(on the compass) while in reverse your boat will do a 180 but if you allready have come to the ordered course and then set reverse it will not do a 180

[Rockin Robbins]

Do I understand you correctly that if you order a compass course and maintain it, if you put engines into reverse the boat will spin 180º?
yes, that is exactly what happens. if you order to put engines in reverse, that is all that should happen, you did not order a new heading on the opposit bearing just by reversing engines so your crew should not be altering coarse without orders to do so. its the navy and you dont think or decide for yourself, you just follow specific orders only. change in engine speed or direction has nothing to do with the heading the boat was ordered to follow. Darn, Webster! I was just on for about three hours and didn't try it that way. I was wounded, heading back to Lorient for refit in Operation Monsun. Stand by and I'll check it out right now....

Ok, the situation is pretty ambiguous. First, if you order a course, and are stabilized on that course with zero rudder, then order reverse, the boat will simply reverse. This has the effect of maintaining the same heading but reversing course, as you expect.

However, once in reverse if you then order a course of say 207º, the helmsman will obey, putting the boat on a heading of 27º to fulfill the order.

Which is correct depends on what the order is. If the order is "new heading" the helmsman points the bow that way. If the order is "new course" the helmsman makes the boat move in that direction, regardless of heading. The game in the U-Boat section orders "new course." I'm not sure about the fleet boat side. I wonder if they're different?

Here's a video showing the behavior for all to curse about. I'll have two versions on FileFront, a downloadable 7zip file (http://files.filefront.com/Websters+reverse+rudder+pem7z/;10196097;/fileinfo.html) and a larger avi that you can just stream online (http://files.filefront.com/Websters+reverse+rudder+pmavi/;10196098;/fileinfo.html). I'd do the second because why would you want to keep the video?:rotfl:I know the answer to that one now: you can't read the compass on the online video. So if you're willing to accept my word for what it reads, see it online. Otherwise, the downloaded version looks a lot better. And correction: it's a cold, stormy day on the Bay of Biscay, not a cold, warmy day!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[Webster]

[Ok, the situation is pretty ambiguous. First, if you order a course, and are stabilized on that course with zero rudder, then order reverse, the boat will simply reverse. This has the effect of maintaining the same heading but reversing course, as you expect.

However, once in reverse if you then order a course of say 207º, the helmsman will obey, putting the boat on a heading of 27º to fulfill the order.

Which is correct depends on what the order is. If the order is "new heading" the helmsman points the bow that way. If the order is "new course" the helmsman makes the boat move in that direction, regardless of heading. The game in the U-Boat section orders "new course." I'm not sure about the fleet boat side. I wonder if they're different?



its a real beotch trying to say, navigate in close quarters like an enemy port and need to dodge an obstruction while turning, more often then not i die or sustain heavy damage from collision. i often like to creep behind a dock wall for protection then surface to shell the ships from safety saving my torpedos lol.

i wish i had saved a screen shot when i this issue caused me to brush into the sunken bow on the battleship i sunk (it was capsized with midships hull out of the water and bow and stern under water) and when i barely rubbed against it i ended up stuck perched on its bow completely out of the water like a sea gull and every DD in port blasted me to death. but the out of the water part is due to a seperate issue of sunken ships with props still turning, the funny thing is i was drifting at 1 knot at all stop when it happened lol. needless to say dont rub against sunken ships with props turning, even if they arent moving you will slide up onto them being forced to the surface or in my case, drydocked lol..

[Rockin Robbins]

Now THAT screenshot would have been priceless! But I know it sure didn't feel priceless at the time. Usually in tight quarters I just click the button below the compass and take over the rudder myself so I can use small angles for minute adjustments. That's why I didn't know how it actually works until I tried it in the video above.

Good thing (lucky thing) I did, because had I ordered a course in that case, I would have ended up literally hung out to dry on a crippled victim!:up:

[Webster]

Now THAT screenshot would have been priceless! But I know it sure didn't feel priceless at the time.

picture a teeter totter lol

i was about 3ft above the water and perectly balanced sitting level to the horizon :rotfl:

[Rockin Robbins]

I hate you for missing that screenie!:rotfl:

[Quillan]

It's always done that to me. I just figured, if you ordered it to go west (270°), then it tries to go west. If you're going at Back Standard, then it turns the stern so you're travelling west. As a result, I always just use the Rudder Amidships command before I put it into reverse.

[Rockin Robbins]

Yup! As long is the order is "new course" the boat must move in that direction no matter what its heading. We have to call "no bug" on that one, no matter how irritating. However, the order should be whatever it is in real life and I haven't seen any real bubbleheads popping in here to set that record straight.

[Webster]

Yup! As long is the order is "new course" the boat must move in that direction no matter what its heading. We have to call "no bug" on that one, no matter how irritating. However, the order should be whatever it is in real life and I haven't seen any real bubbleheads popping in here to set that record straight.

try this:

plot a course, then select to follow that course ahead standard, now without doing anything else simply order "back standard" - you have only reversed engines not ordered a changed course yet the boat will do a 180 and follow the original heading going in reverse. to me this has to be a bug because suddenly reversing engines should not change the subs compass orientation

now try it with no course plotted at all, go ahead standard, select due north 000, without doing anything else lets say you went to "back standard" - the boat with do a 180 and continue in the same original direction but in reverse. im looking for a new helmsman because this is a guaranteed collision if you are in a port.

now lets say you are traveling in reverse on a heading of north 000 (which means you actually ordered a course in reverse of south 180) then select a compass heading of 320 degrees, your boat will travel on a heading of 040. (at this point im loading my gun)

maybe im a simpleton but if i had to point with my finger to go in the direction i want to go in then my helmsman would be fish food.

now in 1.4 it would only due this if you ordered to follow a plotted course because the helmsman did what he needed to follow that course "as ordered" no matter what direction you were going but if you were not under orders to follow a course then just like your car forward was forward and back was back, there was no 180 going on.

[Rockin Robbins]

No Webster, that's in my video and the boat doesn't flip 180 at all. It just backs up, which is really strange. I left it in reverse for quite awhile in my video. It kept heading south, even in reverse. Only when I ordered a new course did it flip 180º.

[Webster]

No Webster, that's in my video and the boat doesn't flip 180 at all. It just backs up, which is really strange. I left it in reverse for quite awhile in my video. It kept heading south, even in reverse. Only when I ordered a new course did it flip 180º.

well the main point is that it works differently then before (because i havent changed my driving) which is a big PITA i wish could be put back the way it was.

any clue as to what they changed so i can try to undo it?

[Rockin Robbins]

Absolutely none. That's a question for the developers. I guess I'm just lucky that I had always controlled the rudder directly when I backed up. I never even noticed the change until your post. Wish I had a working version 1.4 to check it out!

[peabody]

No Webster, that's in my video and the boat doesn't flip 180 at all. It just backs up, which is really strange. I left it in reverse for quite awhile in my video. It kept heading south, even in reverse. Only when I ordered a new course did it flip 180º.

Yes, that's the way I have noticed it too. As long as you are on a straight course and hit reverse, it just backs up. It is when the rudder is turned that it happens different than 1.4. In 1.4 if you were heading north and clicked on East the bow would head starboard toward east, if you reversed before you reached east, the rudder would reverse to continue the turn toward east until the bow faced east, you would just be going backwards.
In 1.5 if you turn to the east and then reverse engines before you finish the turn, the bow will go back toward north but continue around until the stern faces east. Like a real boat would if you didn't make any changes in the rudder.

So, I see the difference as the helmsman not changing the rudder to compensate for the fact that you are going backwards. Right or Wrong? Depends on your point of view. One way the helmsman is making a correction the other way he is not, so it acts like a real boat would if you didn't turn the wheel.

After using 1.4 for a while it took me by suprise. For example if you sneak into a harbor and by the time you are almost lined up for the shot, you discover you are too close and you hit reverse. The old way the bow continued to come around for the shot, but now the boat goes the other way. Just took me by suprise the first time it happened. And a little unlearning like when you are docking and going just a bit to fast (misjudged a bit) so you put it in reverse and it goes the opposite of what I was used to. In Real life If I was docking the boat myself I would have made the correction by turning the wheel which happened automatically in 1.4, now you have to make the correction yourself.

So I guess what changed is "who's driving the boat".

I think the devs planned to make it more realistic, but I think it is just the opposite. For example if you are coming into Pearl and make a right turn toward BB Row and there is a BB coming at you. You are going to hit reverse AND reverse the rudder so you back up away from him. You're not going to hit reverse and do a 180 and back into him. Of course you can make the change yourself, but in 1.4 the helmsman did it. But like you commented you always did it yourself anyway. And you wouldn't notice the difference unless you were in a forward turn when you started backing up and didn't turn the rudder.

Either way it works is ok by me, like I said just took me by surprise the first time it happened.

Peabody

[Webster]

Absolutely none. That's a question for the developers. I guess I'm just lucky that I had always controlled the rudder directly when I backed up. I never even noticed the change until your post. Wish I had a working version 1.4 to check it out!

im still a little unsure if the capt really had to micro manage every detail like that without at least having some audio warning about collision course alert. (game limitation reasons im sure)

im agreeing with you that he probably did do all these things but what are all those other guys there for? if they arent helping me to drive the boat then i want nurses in bikinis on my bridge!

my point is i think you are right that this was intentionally "fixed" because it may have been acting "wrong" the whole time and we just got used to it that way.

i still think it feels like the captain is "missing" the help and imput he would normally have and in real life it would be a team effort not requiring such a high level of micro management.

as for 1.4 i have the data file on disk if you want me to upload a file for you.

@ peabody - you explained it much better than me, thank you.

the biggest thing i get in trouble with are avoiding sudden traffic like inside a port or the middle of convoy when ships scatter and cross your path. one wrong turn can ruin any chance at lining up another firing opportunity.

EDIT - i often like to drive my sub into a docking bay for the added chalenge only in attempt at stopping my forward drift i slam my bow into the pier. (not the best way to dock :oops: )

[Doolittle81]

From a non-sailor, layman's point of view, it seems to me that a sub would only be in reverse for minor adjustments of position, for very small changes in bearing....mostly to make minor adjustments tieing up to a dock or a stationary support/supply ship....perhaps backing off of a reef or sandbar unfortunately encountered. I would think, therefore, that the 'Orders' would be simple 'left' or 'right 'rudder or Amidships....rather than compass headings.

In a sense, it's like driving a car or giving directions to a driver of a car. You might/would say head 'Northeast' or 'North on HiWay XXX'...or 'go two blocks, then turn right on such-and-such a cross street'. But, when backing up to park or extricate oneself from a tangled situation (fender-bender, ice-slide, boxed-in tight parking situation,etc), the norm would be something like "turn the [steering] wheel left...good...more...okay straighten out...good..easy...now right just a bit...etc" Make it a car with a trailer attached and it becomes even more difficult giving backing directions.

Again, just a thought from a non-RealLife submariner.

[Rockin Robbins]

Bullseye Doolittle! In tight quarters, the captain's orders to the helmsman are on the order of "20º right rudder. Ahead 1/3." He would never order a compass course while maneuvereing in tight situations.

At sea where there are no immediate obstacles the captain orders compass courses, meant to be held for extended lengths of time.

[Webster]

we will just have to learn to adjust our driving skills now that it is working a little differently