UBER-Realism Thread

[siber]

Hi Everyone.

I've been looking though old threads, and notice congregations of kaleuns discussing and comparing notes on tactics, harbour raids, convoy attacks, boat types etc, but as far as I can see there isn't yet one single thread dealing with uber-realism. So, can I start one here?

I'd like to hear from other kaleuns that play with high realism settings, and mods to provide a more realistic, challenging and immersive simulation as opposed to an action game. Not that there's anything wrong with playing with auto-targetting and drooling at the beautiful graphics etc, but I'm actively targetting high-realism players.

For example:
I play GWX2.1 at 100% realism - an no external camera! - with OLC's GUI and environment to give taller waves (and less visibility). I always exit the game and restart upon returning to port, letting SH3Commander randomly transfer crewmen etc. I'll head for my assigned patrol grid, remaining there for 24hrs, before heading on a search pattern nearby if targets are not found. In order to try to achieve a realistic tonnage per patrol, I take no notice of single ships presented on the map, presuming that the majority of these would not be reported IRL. Convoys reported via the map I will pursue.

Unless using the stern torpedo tube, the minimum number of fish fired per target is 2, unless the shot is determined to have only a 'long-shot' chance of success. External reloads are only used with the boat at a complete stop with windspeed lower than 5m/s. All targets sighted are engaged unless they're a fishing boat or smaller, or a destroyer/corvette. Only battleships, cruisers and aircraft carriers are valid targets amongst enemy naval forces.

So, my question to other uber-realistic (or wannabe uber-realistic) players is this:
How do you ensure your gameplay is as accurate as possible? Which mods do you use? Do you have any advice about how I can better simulate real life experiences within the confines of SH3 as a computer game?

Also, I was wondering about GWX Enhanced Damage Effects... Can someone tell me whether this will cause stricken ships to sink faster due to explosions & fires etc? I can't say for sure, but I think that with EDEs enabled, ships seem to blow themselves to pieces long before they would otherwise flood and sink without EDEs. Comments anyone?

All feedback and responses gratefully received! :up:

p.s. I doubt very much I'll ever have time to play without any time compression to simulate the boredom. I take that as read... and really can't be bothered to try it myself...

[onelifecrisis]

Interesting idea for a thread. :D

[Pablo]

Also, I was wondering about GWX Enhanced Damage Effects... Can someone tell me whether this will cause stricken ships to sink faster due to explosions & fires etc? I can't say for sure, but I think that with EDEs enabled, ships seem to blow themselves to pieces long before they would otherwise flood and sink without EDEs. Comments anyone?
Hi!

The explosion and fire effects are more spectacular, but the hit points, damage caused by weapons hits, zones, etc., remain the same as without using EDE.

Sometimes you see the results more quickly than if the ship merely sank beneath the waves, but I attribute that (from a realism perspective) to things like steam explosions in the boiler room, etc., that can occur as the result of flooding a steam ship's boiler room, flammable or hazardous stores (chemicals and such) in the cargo, etc., that are not strictly modeled in Silent Hunter III.

Pablo

[Pablo]

Interesting idea for a thread. :D

I believe you're correct, ships do sink easier with EDE (and also with SH4 Effects for SH3) because the extra explosions do additional damage to them. Without using those mods, I'm finding that "one ship one (impact) torpedo" sinks about two out of three merchants, and dreadnaughts almost always take more than one torp. Using EDE I found that one torp sinks almost any ship, almost every time. I don't know if that's more realistic or not... maybe the extra damage from EDE actually increases realism!? If anyone knows how many torpedos would typically be required to sink a ship IRL, I'm all ears! Hi!

There is a section in the GWX manual where "VonHelsching" briefly wrote up the GWX approach to damage modeling, and that may help answer some of your questions.

AFAIK the explosions you see in EDE are merely cosmetic, and don't cause additional damage, since the only files modified are the particles (which affect the visuals) and the zones.cfg, which causes explosion effects but (should) not cause additional damage.

If you are patient enough for a ship to flood, most of the merchant ships in GWX can be sunk with one or two torpedoes because, IIRC, most of the merchant ships that were lost IRL went down with one or two torpedo hits: once you put a hole in the big cargo spaces, it's just a question of whether your ship has enough reserve buoyancy to stay afloat with a large flooded compartment.

Large warships could (but did not always) survive a couple of hits provided the ship could retain power for the pumps, and if the ship's compartmentalization could limit the flooding to a small volume of the ship, but the explosion could buckle a ship's deck plates, hull plates, and bulkheads and thereby allow water to leak further into the ship. For example, HMS Barham rolled over just a few minutes after being hit by three torpedoes from U-331; HMS Malaya survived a hit from U-106, but HMS Ark Royal was lost to a single torpedo from U-81, described in detail here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ark_Royal_%2891%29). A lot depended on the exact type and location of damage, as well as the design and layout of the ship in question.

Silent Hunter III does not allow modeling of a lot of important damage and damage control mechanisms that would affect the outcome IRL, so what we have is really just a rough approximation, regardless of which mods you use, if any.

Hope this helps!

Pablo

[onelifecrisis]

Thanks for the info, Pablo! :up: :up:

[Pablo]

Also, I was wondering about GWX Enhanced Damage Effects... Can someone tell me whether this will cause stricken ships to sink faster due to explosions & fires etc? I can't say for sure, but I think that with EDEs enabled, ships seem to blow themselves to pieces long before they would otherwise flood and sink without EDEs. Comments anyone? Hi!

The explosion and fire effects are more spectacular, but the hit points, damage caused by weapons hits, zones, etc., remain the same as without using EDE.
The question isn't whether the hit points, zones, etc are the same... it's whether more damage is being done by the explosions. If you're saying no more damage is done, then how come
a) Ships sink so much easier with EDE?
b) Your sub takes far more damage when close to a ship which is exploding with EDE than without EDE?

Edit:
Wait a sec... are you saying that yes more damage is done, but that is more realistic? LOL - the perils of cross-posting! :D

Hmm...I wasn't aware of these effects.

To answer your questions:

a) AFAIK, the EDE effects are only cosmetic, so the ships don't sink more easily. The only files affected by the EDE mod are particles and zones.cfg - if the changes to those files don't cause more explosion damage, then EDE can't cause more damage. "EDE - it doesn't make ships sink - it makes them sink more spectacularly."

b) Have you tried torpedoing ships at known ranges in a mission with known cargoes with the mod enabled and then with it disabled? For example, if you hit a ship with a cargo of ammunition and you're too close, then you're gonna get pasted - but you only know that for sure if you are playing a scenario that specifies the cargo type.

Pablo

[Pablo]

So, my question to other uber-realistic (or wannabe uber-realistic) players is this:
How do you ensure your gameplay is as accurate as possible? Which mods do you use? Do you have any advice about how I can better simulate real life experiences within the confines of SH3 as a computer game? Hi!

I read the U-boat Commander's Handbook and try to follow its advice. Although it's dated 1943, before the roof caved in the the Ubootwaffe, it's pretty much common sense and works well in SH3 and GWX V2.1. Specifically:
Never fight it out with aircraft if you can possibly help it.
Don't use gunnery against targets that can shoot back.
Get it really close (600 meters to 1000 meters) if possible to minimize the effect of aiming errors. If you can't get in close, especially later in the war, fire a spread of torpedoes and then quietly leave - if you cripple a couple of ships they'll still be within hydrophone range after the convoy and its escorts have departed, and you can stalk them and pick them off then.
There is a saying about aircraft pilots: "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots." The same generally applies to U-boat commanders.With regard to mods, I understand OLC vastly improves the game's modeling of actual U-boat targeting and torpedo aiming procedures, so you may want to look at that. The mod author has done a lot of work to document how it works, which is always a huge help (if I may say so...) ;)

Pablo

[Sailor Steve]

I play GWX2.1 at 100% realism - an no external camera! - with OLC's GUI and environment to give taller waves (and less visibility).
I'm working on getting all my mods in order, and having it the way I want it, before starting any new careers, but when I do I plan to learn the hard way and also play at 100%. I don't use OLC-GUI, as I'm a big fan of the 6-Dials Simfeeling mod, which won't work with it. It will, however, work with the earlier U-Jagd Tools mod, which is similar but not as advanced.

I always exit the game and restart upon returning to port, letting SH3Commander randomly transfer crewmen etc. I'll head for my assigned patrol grid, remaining there for 24hrs, before heading on a search pattern nearby if targets are not found. In order to try to achieve a realistic tonnage per patrol, I take no notice of single ships presented on the map, presuming that the majority of these would not be reported IRL. Convoys reported via the map I will pursue.
I too use SH3 Commander. I spend the entire patrol in my assigned grid, only wandering if a convoy is reported close by. As for radio contacts, I used to use the 20/20 mod, which reduced single ships to 20% of the original, and reduced radio contacts by the same amount. I don't know if GWX has anything like that as part of its routine, but I only pay attention to contacts that are very close by.

I try to use one torpedo for each level (small, medium, large) of merchant size, and I also never attack destroyers. At 100% I assume that becomes a very bad idea anyway. Also, I don't try to dogfight with them like I did back in the days of Silent Service and SH1. After my attack I go deep and slow, and think about trying to keep those little sprites alive.

p.s. I doubt very much I'll ever have time to play without any time compression to simulate the boredom. I take that as read... and really can't be bothered to try it myself...
I love the graphic additions in GWX, and I usually travel through the harbors at 1x, but once at sea I use time compression. I'm trying not to go over 128x or at most 256x. I don't remember which one is the level that minimizes air attacks. I try to stay slow enough that they will attack. Personally, I don't believe that playing at 1x is more realistic, simply because you have to either let it run while you do something else, or save it each time and only spend real time when you can, so end up taking a year to do one patrol. But that's just my opinion, so it's only my reason for not playing that way; I'm not suggesting that anyone else not do it if that's what they want.

[Pablo]

No I was speaking from experience, I've not done any controlled tests. What's more, I don't fully understand those files, but I don't think one needs to...
We can agree that the EDE changes to zones.cfg add additional explosions which do not take place when EDE is not installed. We can agree that these explosions do damage which is not compensated for by any increase in ship hitpoints. Case closed, no? :hmm:
Hi!

In general, we've found controlled tests in mission environments to be necessary in verifying reported problems since the mission editor can control some of the variables that can affect your results. Repeatability of the results is key when assessing stuff like this.

BTW, I checked with the GWX Technomages: the explosions are only visual effects, and cause no additional hit points of damage.

Pablo

[onelifecrisis]

BTW, I checked with the GWX Technomages: the explosions are only visual effects, and cause no additional hit points of damage.

Hmm. Sit your sub next to one of those nice new mushroom-cloud explosions and say that. ;)
Anyway thanks for getting back with that, good to know what the "official" line is, at least.

[siber]

...As for radio contacts, I used to use the 20/20 mod, which reduced single ships to 20% of the original, and reduced radio contacts by the same amount. I don't know if GWX has anything like that as part of its routine, but I only pay attention to contacts that are very close by.

I try to use one torpedo for each level (small, medium, large) of merchant size, and I also never attack destroyers. At 100% I assume that becomes a very bad idea anyway. Also, I don't try to dogfight with them like I did back in the days of Silent Service and SH1. After my attack I go deep and slow, and think about trying to keep those little sprites alive.

I'd be interested to know more about that 20:20 mod. You mean it decreases the frequency of running into single ships by chance, AND the number of single ship radio contacts too? Does that affect reports of convoys too?

Is there any historical evidence for how many torps to fire at targets? I generally fire 2 at anything bigger than 1500t, upping to 4 if I get the chance to shoot a carrier or cruiser. When targetting, I always try to get an AOB of 90 degrees, in order that distance is irrelivent - simply the angle and speed of target.

I'm trying not to go over 128x or at most 256x. I don't remember which one is the level that minimizes air attacks. I try to stay slow enough that they will attack.

Really? High TC reduces the chances of air attack? I had no idea... Now: A trade off... More boredom for more realism? Hmmm :hmm:

[Pablo]

BTW, I checked with the GWX Technomages: the explosions are only visual effects, and cause no additional hit points of damage.
Hmm. Sit your sub next to one of those nice new mushroom-cloud explosions and say that. ;)
Anyway thanks for getting back with that, good to know what the "official" line is, at least.
Hi!

It would be a lot easier for us to check this out if you could cite a circumstance (range, ship type, ship's cargo, etc.) where you are repeatedly and reliably damaged when using EDE, and undamaged when not using EDE. FWIW, I have not suffered any damage when using EDE, even when using the deck gun at very close (100 to 200m) range.

Pablo

[mr chris]

. I'm trying not to go over 128x or at most 256x. I don't remember which one is the level that minimizes air attacks. I try to stay slow enough that they will attack.
Really? High TC reduces the chances of air attack? I had no idea... Now: A trade off... More boredom for more realism? Hmmm :hmm:

128x is the highest TC you can go to i belive before you start to minimze the chance of air attack.

[siber]

Do you know whether there's any way I can change this?

[Sailor Steve]

I'd be interested to know more about that 20:20 mod. You mean it decreases the frequency of running into single ships by chance, AND the number of single ship radio contacts too? Does that affect reports of convoys too?
Decreased - past tense. The original mod was for the stock game. It was included in RUB, so I assume NYGM. I don't know if GWX has it or not, but I would hope so.

Is there any historical evidence for how many torps to fire at targets? I generally fire 2 at anything bigger than 1500t, upping to 4 if I get the chance to shoot a carrier or cruiser. When targetting, I always try to get an AOB of 90 degrees, in order that distance is irrelivent - simply the angle and speed of target.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/SS-Doct/index.html
Chapter 4, Section 6, Page 51, Part 4614.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/SS-Doct/SS-Doct-4.html#section6

[moscowexile]

As regards über-reality, wasn't there a Kaleun a few months back who reported that he had set off on a mission without time compression, that he had no intention of using time compression, and that he intended to let his PC run constantly, apart from when he was at work or sleeping, in order to simulate full immersion as near as possible? If so, I wonder where he is now?

In his alter ego, I mean.

[siber]

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/SS-Doct/index.html
Chapter 4, Section 6, Page 51, Part 4614.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/SS-Doct/SS-Doct-4.html#section6
Interesting that the US navy at the time recommends a rate of 100% redundancy. If a ship requires 1 torp to sink it, fire 2!

Having said that, I think I remember reading somewhere that US torpedoes were even less reliable than German ones. (Do I remember correctly?) It's also interesting that it states: "...in an area where targets are known to be numerous Commanding Officers must use their torpedoes with discretion and care in order to inflict the utmost damage to the enemy"

I guess this means 'It's up to you!'

Also, I was reading another link to u-boat.net yesterday about the electric torpedoes. Apparently if run on fast without having their batteries warmed up beforehand, they only had 1/3 of the range (about 1.5km!). Therefore, for uber-realism, I'll not be using electrics for long shots anymore!

[onelifecrisis]

Also, I was reading another link to u-boat.net yesterday about the electric torpedoes. Apparently if run on fast without having their batteries warmed up beforehand, they only had 1/3 of the range (about 1.5km!). Therefore, for uber-realism, I'll not be using electrics for long shots anymore!

Electrics don't have a "fast" setting in SH3, unless I'm mistaken, and if they did I'm sure it would result in reduced range anyway, just like it does with the steam torps. There's nothing unrealistic about a (slow) electric torp travelling 4km, AFAIK. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong! ;)

[Sailor Steve]

Interesting that the US navy at the time recommends a rate of 100% redundancy. If a ship requires 1 torp to sink it, fire 2!
I never looked at it in quite that light! You're right, they were covering their tails as best they could.:rotfl:

Having said that, I think I remember reading somewhere that US torpedoes were even less reliable than German ones.
That's a much-discussed topic. The German actually forbade the use of magnetic exploders from 1940 until the problem was fixed in 1943; so while it could be argued both ways, it seems to me that they were about equal with their failures and in the fixing of them.

I guess this means 'It's up to you!'
That reminds me of the (historically accurate) scene in Tora! Tora! Tora!, when Admiral Kimmel tells Bull Halsey to take his carriers out scouting. Halsey asks Kimmel what his orders are if he should meet Japanese ships in the area of Hawaii. Kimmel tells him "Use your discretion." Halsey's reply: "That's the best damned order I've ever been given!"

[siber]

Electrics don't have a "fast" setting in SH3, unless I'm mistaken, and if they did I'm sure it would result in reduced range anyway, just like it does with the steam torps. There's nothing unrealistic about a (slow) electric torp travelling 4km, AFAIK. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong! ;)

Sorry, I meant if they were loaded up and fired quickly without time to warm up the batteries, even if I didn't say it... Should have written that a bit clearer, like! :nope:

[onelifecrisis]

Electrics don't have a "fast" setting in SH3, unless I'm mistaken, and if they did I'm sure it would result in reduced range anyway, just like it does with the steam torps. There's nothing unrealistic about a (slow) electric torp travelling 4km, AFAIK. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong! ;)

Sorry, I meant if they were loaded up and fired quickly without time to warm up the batteries, even if I didn't say it... Should have written that a bit clearer, like! :nope:

Ahh, gotcha, sorry. So, 3-4km shots are realistic provided the tubes were loaded some time in advance of the attack?

[Pablo]

Electrics don't have a "fast" setting in SH3, unless I'm mistaken, and if they did I'm sure it would result in reduced range anyway, just like it does with the steam torps. There's nothing unrealistic about a (slow) electric torp travelling 4km, AFAIK. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong! ;)
Sorry, I meant if they were loaded up and fired quickly without time to warm up the batteries, even if I didn't say it... Should have written that a bit clearer, like! :nope:
Hi!

Campbell's Naval Weapons of World War II indicates the battery cases had internal heating elements that were turned on any time the U-boat was in an area where combat could be expected. This would allow the torpedoes to be rapidly loaded and fired, without waiting for the batteries to warm up.

The German electric torpedoes had to be serviced every few days, so ensuring the battery was not discharged and that the heater was still working may have been part of the servicing.

Pablo

[mengle]

i don't know, when i installed RB SH4 effects for gwx 2.1 fixed by Asanovic7, i must tell you 1 torpedo is not enough anymore , what i also like is that ships take a long time before the going under

[siber]

On another thread, it's also been suggested that, when the periscope stabilisation option is checked 'off', the periscope view wiggles around far more than it would in real life. Do you agree? And if so, is it more realistic for the 'wiggle' to be removed completely rather than having it as 'a bit over the top'?

[onelifecrisis]

OK, since this thread started I've been trying to take note of the things I do to increase "realism". These have become so automatic to me that I couldn't think of them off the top of my head. Anyway, I reckon I've got most of them now, so to anyone who is interested I've listed them. Most of these, I read about here at subsim. :up:

I set "Maximum TC" to 256. As has already been noted, high TC all but removes the possibility of air attacks.
I set "When Hunting TC" to 256. If you have this set lower than your Maximum TC it can be a give away. For example, if it were set at 32 (the default) then when a ship is spotted I will know whether or not it is an enemy ship, even from 16km, just by trying to go high on the TC while shadowing it. Setting this TC the same as the max TC forces me to check the flag.
I never stop submerged. Maintaining a constant depth in a U-boat that wasn't moving was barely possible, and trying it made a lot of noise IRL. SH3 doesn't model this noise, so I always keep my U-boat moving at least a little bit. Sitting perfectly still at PD (or any depth) is effectively cheating in SH3.
I never ping for depth when enemies are around. IRL, pinging the sea floor while escorts are around would have alerted all nearby escorts to your presence, but SH3 doesn't model this. You can ping and they don't hear it. Edited 7th July 2008: I was wrong about this, SH3 does model it, and pinging for depth can result in detection! I therefore don't allow myself to ping for depth when enemy ships are around, I just use the depth thing on the navmap. Sometimes, in waters 100-200m depth (I never go into very shallow waters) I have hit the bottom while trying to put a few extra meters between me and the DD's that are hunting me. I really like this touch! The "Can I, can't I?" question of whether to try for those extra few meters, with the sound of DD's going Ping! above you, can be pretty cool.
I always let the crew fire the guns. The reasons for this are obvious I think.
I always follow my orders. If BdU tell me to go to grid AM11, it doesn't seem realistic to me that I ignore them and go to DH53.
I play DiD (Dead is Dead). This stops me from getting silly ideas like fighting escorts or raiding ports. If you try this, I strongly recommend setting "When being hunted TC" to 1 because the seconds/minutes gained by having TC automatically dropped to 1 when you're attacked can make all the difference. The downside is that DC attacks have to be played out in realtime if the escorts manage to detect me, but even that cloud has a silver lining: it's a little extra incentive to try to make sure I don't get detected at all.

[siber]

Vey interesting OLC! I think I'll be imitating your settings. Obviously you'll use your GUI and Environment mods... Do you use persicope stabilisation with these mods or not? Catfish feels that, combined with your mods, the periscope view is more realistic stabilised.

[onelifecrisis]

Do you use persicope stabilisation with these mods or not? Catfish feels that, combined with your mods, the periscope view is more realistic stabilised.

Yes but for different reasons to Catfish.
The germans had a split prism stadimiter in the attack scope. They lined up two images, and doing that "automatically" rotated the "Range/AOB Finder" wheels. The point is that while both images would moved around due to scope roll, they would not move relative to each other, so lining them up was relatively straight forward.
I made it so that Periscope Stabilisation could be turned on without a realism hit because

we don't have the split-image periscope in SH3
our on-screen periscope view is already much worse (low-resolution) than a real one
stabilising a scope using two arrow keys is surely much more difficult than doing it with your hands on a real scopeBut, some high-realism players here have it turned on, and - given my unrealistically high tonnage scores - maybe they're right to do so and I should change my settings.


BTW, Pablo, if you're reading... I've not yet done much testing of EDE but I did find time to do some controlled tests, and so far you seem absolutely right about EDE not doing additional damage. I'll therefore remove the comments about EDE from my earlier posts. If I ever do find any evidence of extra damage being done by EDE, I'll send you a PM.

[JScones]

I set "Maximum TC" to 256. As has already been noted, high TC all but removes the possibility of air attacks.
I set "When Hunting TC" to 256. If you have this set lower than your Maximum TC it can be a give away. For example, if it were set at 32 (the default) then when a ship is spotted I will know whether or not it is an enemy ship, even from 16km, just by trying to go high on the TC while shadowing it. Setting this TC the same as the max TC forces me to check the flag.Even then it's hard to avoid that tell-tale slowing down that SH3 exhibits whenever there is a ship or convoy near by. :(

TBH though, apart from the two TC settings listed above (I set both to 4096 because sometimes I just need to hurry things up), my approach is exactly the same as yours. :up:

[siber]

Generally, with respect to the simulation slowing when a ship is nearby, I won't deviate from plotted course for single ship reports. I'll deviate only for radio reports of convoys nearby. Otherwise, I'll only approach nearby ships if they've been spotted by the watch crew...

[Ivan Putski]

I also play DiD, and much the same as OLC does, I like to use SHIII Commanders randon crush depth, gives a little extra to worry about. No two boats, even of the same type were built equal, or even by the same shipyards. I like that feature, even more if you`ve acquired damage, leave a nice big question mark. I`ve had some pretty long careers 39- late 43, 39- late 44, but have yet to survive the war. Puts

[onelifecrisis]

I set "Maximum TC" to 256. As has already been noted, high TC all but removes the possibility of air attacks.
I set "When Hunting TC" to 256. If you have this set lower than your Maximum TC it can be a give away. For example, if it were set at 32 (the default) then when a ship is spotted I will know whether or not it is an enemy ship, even from 16km, just by trying to go high on the TC while shadowing it. Setting this TC the same as the max TC forces me to check the flag.Even then it's hard to avoid that tell-tale slowing down that SH3 exhibits whenever there is a ship or convoy near by. :(

Very true. I tried 128x and even then I still get a noticable pause when a convoy is loaded.

When I get that tell-tale momentary judder from a convoyI wasn't expecting, I just ignore it and proceed along whatever course I've plotted. If I blunder into the convoy, fine. If I miss it, tough luck. It's still annoying, though.

Ignorance would be bliss, eh? :lol:

[Uber Gruber]

I play the same as OLC except I never go above 128 when in patrol zone on surface and 256 when submerged or en route to patrol zone.

Always do a quick observation scope check for planes before surfacing.

Always fire a min of 2 fish at targets greater than 4500 TNS

Never engage escorts but hope to one day engage a capital ship.

Always use crew for deck gun and flak guns.

Always stop the boat when loading external spare fish and never in winds greater than 7mps

Never abort reloading of an external fish once started, so if a plane comes then i'll just have to fight it out :-(

Gun reload time set to 15 secs

Random crush depths

Sabotage and Malfuntions enabled

NVDrifters excellent Longer Repair times...and absolute must.

Great topic by the way, someone should put together an SH3 Commanders Handbook with all these realism tips included:yep:

[siber]

I was going to ask about deck gun reload times... I know you can set a minimum time with SH3Commander, but what would a realistic reload time be? I've yet to find a definitive answer (although, tbh, I haven't really tried to search very hard :nope:).

I've a mate who used to be in the Royal Artillery, and he said that with a crew of three, his 105mm gun took about 4-6 seconds to reload... but said gun would be stationary, lashed down and stable... Also, ammo would be to hand.

I understand u-boats had to have ammo passed up from below, round by round. Add this to a pitching wet deck and the additional time it takes to lay the gun each shot because of the movement, and this time's got to be increased somewhat.

What settings do you all use? :hmm:

[aj906]

I set "Maximum TC" to 256. As has already been noted, high TC all but removes the possibility of air attacks.
I set "When Hunting TC" to 256. If you have this set lower than your Maximum TC it can be a give away. For example, if it were set at 32 (the default) then when a ship is spotted I will know whether or not it is an enemy ship, even from 16km, just by trying to go high on the TC while shadowing it. Setting this TC the same as the max TC forces me to check the flag.
I never stop submerged. Maintaining a constant depth in a U-boat that wasn't moving was barely possible, and trying it made a lot of noise IRL. SH3 doesn't model this noise, so I always keep my U-boat moving at least a little bit. Sitting perfectly still at PD (or any depth) is effectively cheating in SH3.
I never ping for depth when enemies are around. IRL, pinging the sea floor while escorts are around would have alerted all nearby escorts to your presence, but SH3 doesn't model this. You can ping and they don't hear it. I therefore don't allow myself to ping for depth when enemy ships are around, I just use the depth thing on the navmap. Sometimes, in waters 100-200m depth (I never go into very shallow waters) I have hit the bottom while trying to put a few extra meters between me and the DD's that are hunting me. I really like this touch! The "Can I, can't I?" question of whether to try for those extra few meters, with the sound of DD's going Ping! above you, can be pretty cool.
I always let the crew fire the guns. The reasons for this are obvious I think.
I always follow my orders. If BdU tell me to go to grid AM11, it doesn't seem realistic to me that I ignore them and go to DH53.
I play DiD (Dead is Dead). This stops me from getting silly ideas like fighting escorts or raiding ports. If you try this, I strongly recommend setting "When being hunted TC" to 1 because the seconds/minutes gained by having TC automatically dropped to 1 when you're attacked can make all the difference. The downside is that DC attacks have to be played out in realtime if the escorts manage to detect me, but even that cloud has a silver lining: it's a little extra incentive to try to make sure I don't get detected at all.


I play with weapon officer assistance on simply because in RL, there would have been a helping hand to juggle the necessary input data. I also use external view but only because I love the eye-candy of GWX and the great desktops that can be produced from it. Other than that, it's "realistic"

I am surprised to learn that the depth ping has no effect as to whether or not you are "heard". As a matter of course, when I know there is anything within sonar range I just don't use it and sink by degrees. I had just assumed pinging the depth was tantamount to suicide :stare: I also try not to use the periscope to judge depth which I believe is a bit unrelaistic. Even at night at 180metres you can still clearly make out the rivets on the bow of your boat... (or at least, I can..)

I have to say, I'm more of a winged-wonder than a silent stalker, but the diversion of SH3+GWX2.0 has opened a whole new world to me!

[onelifecrisis]

I was going to ask about deck gun reload times... I know you can set a minimum time with SH3Commander, but what would a realistic reload time be? I've yet to find a definitive answer (although, tbh, I haven't really tried to search very hard :nope:).

This was once was a very hotly debated topic indeed.
My two cents:
The reload time in GWX is realistic according to quite a few sources i.e. there's no need, IMO, to use this SH3 commander option. The option is there for anyone who disagrees to set their own "realistic" reload times. I suppose it's also there for anyone who would like to have a high-caliber minigun on their U-boat. :lol:

[JScones]

This was once was a very hotly debated topic indeed.
siber's post just had be reading through a few of the old deck gun threads, ahh the memories.
The reload time in GWX is realistic according to quite a few sources i.e. there's no need, IMO, to use this SH3 commander option. The option is there for anyone who disagrees to set their own "realistic" reload times. I suppose it's also there for anyone who would like to have a high-caliber minigun on their U-boat. :lol:
Or for anyone who uses RUb...:rotfl:

BTW, I see your last career was finally retired. ;)

[onelifecrisis]

BTW, I see your last career was finally retired. ;)

:oops:
Er, yes, lol, don't remind me! :lol:

[bert8for3]

I play pretty much the same as people have said here. Thought it might be an idea just to recap for convenience the points made (apologies if I missed any) with acknowledgment to previous posters and doing some editing to shorten a bit, then some of mine added.

1. I set "Maximum TC" to 256.
2. I set "When Hunting TC" to 256.
3. I never stop submerged.
4. I never ping for depth when enemies are around.
5. I always let the crew fire the guns.
6. I always follow my orders.
7. I play DiD (Dead is Dead).
8. persicope stabilisation (?)
9. Always do a quick observation scope check for planes before surfacing.
10. Always fire a min of 2 fish at targets greater than 4500 TNS
11. Never engage escorts but hope to one day engage a capital ship.
12. Always stop the boat when loading external spare fish and never in winds greater than 7mps. Never abort reloading of an external
fish once started, so if a plane comes then i'll just have to fight it out :-(
13. Gun reload time set to 15 secs
14. Random crush depths
15. Sabotage and Malfuntions enabled
16. NVDrifters excellent Longer Repair times...and absolute must.
17. I play with weapon officer assistance on simply because in RL, there would have been a helping hand to juggle the necessary
input data.
18. I also use external view but only because I love the eye-candy of GWX and the great desktops that can be produced from it. Other
than that, it's "realistic"

Here's my own additions:

19. I keep crew fatigue on the default setting and move them around to simulate watches. I don't do it all the time, mind you, and when I do, I don't stick like glue to a proper rotation. I mainly do it when I'm on 1X (see below). For a while I used to do it when in higher (max 256 also for long distance) TC by dropping to 1X every 4 hours and then rotating and then putting TC back to 256 (or whatever lower), but it was a pain. I know some people ditch fatigue, and there are valid reasons for that, but I find personally that it adds a bit of atmosphere.

20. I put torp load on manual rather than automatic. I just prefer to have control to avoid risk of auto loading (and therefore noise) if by chance I'm not on silent running and have some people in the torpedo rooms. It may not actually make a difference, but again I like the atmosphere of it.

21. I stick to 1X from the time I make contact with a target, throughout attack and afterwards until I lose or abandon contact. With a couple of small exceptions. If I pick up a sound contact at long range, then I may use TC but no more than 16X or 32X to close the range a bit. But I make sure to go to 1X prior to visual contact. Likewise if I'm flanking a convoy to get ahead after visual contact or to make another attack, and if I'm flanking out of visual contact, then I somtimes use TC but again not more than 16X or 32X. Finally, if I've gone deep after an attack, and if the escorts are hunting but are nowhere near me, then I'll also use a bit of TC to get some distance so that I can surface. My exceptions are basically to save a bit of RL playing time when there's going to be a dead stretch of time otherwise at 1X and because my 1X play otherwise makes for long periods of inactivity anyway. eg I just finished a third attack on a convoy last night. It took me a couple of two-hour or so playing sessions to disengage after the second attack and then flank around the convoy into position for the third attack. Once I was confident that the convoy hadn't altered course, and I was abeam the flank escort, I used 16X to pull ahead a bit faster.

22. I don't use WO reports for targeting. I did until recently, but decided to wean myself off, as the range reports are just too accurate and make it easy to get target course and speed, at least on single ship targets. Most of the time they were useless anyway with convoys as the nearest target is generally an escort, although you could plot over time and get a mean course and speed. Now I've gone to visual obs of target track and intersecting bearings for target speed. Also OLC's Gui tools, but I'm not yet practiced with them.

Not that any of this is imho a code or the way to do it, just mine. :up:

[onelifecrisis]

I play without fatigue because my PC can't handle what is, IMHO, the only good fatigue model for SH3: RUB 1xTC! For anyone who doesn't know: RUB 1xTC is a misnomer because it actually works at any TC up to and including your 3D TC setting (default 32). By increasing 3D TC to match your maximum TC you can have the RUB 1xTC "battle fatigue" model working all the time... the only problem is that SH3 will render everything all the time, even when you're looking at your map at max TC. This puts quite a strain on your system at higher TC settings. Modern machines should be able to handle it without breaking a sweat, but my 3YO rig tends to crumple under the pressure when a convoy is around. :(

[msalama]

Thanks everyone, good tips all around!

I recently went to 100% realism, and to my great amazement still seem to hit the buggers even :o I decided to use the WO's contact info for the time being though, but still do my own plotting and maths. What's funny is that it's all starting to make good sense to me - though one really needs some P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E to get anything done :88)

OLC's way of never stopping the electrics while at PD is a good one BTW, so I of course copied it right away :up: But how about going down to 100m and then stopping the works? I'm sure I've read and / or heard stories of captains doing that when resting their crews, &c...

[siber]

I suppose that turning off the motors at depth should be ok, but I understand that if you do this whilst under attack, the hunting surface ships will blow you out of the water with ease not possible in real life...

Sometimes I'll stop everything at 50m in my assigned patrol grid when the visibility's bad in order to listen with hydrophones for contacts whilst also saving fuel. :know:

[Fubar2Niner]

Hi all.

I just stumbled across this topic and was wondering if someone can explain the DiD mod, and tell me where I might find it. I've noticed it listed in quite a few sigs, and have tried searching but have never found it. Thanks for any help.

Best regards.

Fubar2Niner

[msalama]

DiD means "dead is dead". It's not a mod, but a way of playing the game where you never "try again" if your Kaleun dies or surrenders...

[Fubar2Niner]

Thanks for clearing that up msalama. In that case I been playing that way all along :oops:

Best regards.

Fubar2Niner

[rifleman13]

Did any u-boats there did any "bow shots"?

A destroyer coming head to head with a u-boat? Did this happen? The reason I asked this because there was a sub film I watched titled "Run Silent, Run Deep" and it shows a US sub torpedoeing a Jap destroyer at the bow.

Any thoughts?:arrgh!:

[siber]

Even when I've been in a position to try, I've never actually scored a hit... :shifty:

The odds of the torp missing, or hitting but bouncing off are seriously significant.

[Catfish]

Hello,
i have heard it from two commanders, an american and a german one. However it is very unlikely that a torpedo would explode hitting at the sharp angle of a bow with an impact detonator - it would most probably be diverted and run on in a different direction, at least in the early war with the detonator pistol problems. Maybe with a magnetic detonator, but then the waves may not be too high ... it works in SH3 with magnetic detonator and in calm weather.
Greetings,
Catfish

[boneman]

guys please help HOW DO I MANUALLY TARGET SHIPS USING OLC UBERMOD GUYS SHOW ME YOUR TARGETINGSKILLS!:up:

[Schwuppes]

download the OLC GUI tutorial video from onelifecrisis's website!
Its very comprehensive and wil teach you the fine art of manual targeting. (actually its not that hard at all ;))

http://hosted.filefront.com/onelifecrisis

[siber]

I found it useful to extract a point-by-point list for writing on a sheet that can be blue-tack'd to the wall next to your monitor for reference.
(Note nomenclature: OW = Outer wheel. CWU = Centre wheel upper. CWL = Centre wheel lower. IW = Inner wheel.)

Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but I understand the sequence to be as follows:

1: Speed determination.
a: Identify ship
b: Align crosshair with bow and start stopwatch. Do not move scope!
c: Stop stopwatch when stern passes crosshair.
d: Align time (secs) on CWU with ship length (from ID book) on OW.
e: Scratchmark at 58deg on IW indicates calculated speed (kts) on CWL.

2: Range determination.
a: Lock scope view onto ship
b: Note height of tallest mast (number interval) marks on scope.
c: Set this number on CWL to 90deg on IW
d: Find ship's mast height (from ID book) on OW. This aligns with range on CWU (in hundreds of metres).

3: AOB determination.
a: Drag calculated range on CWU round to align with ship length (from ID book) on OW.
b: Count number of intervals between centre of ship and bow. Note direction (Red/Green).
c: This number on CWL gives AOB on IW
d: Set this AOB on Red/Green side as per b:

Bare in mind however, I have terrible trouble getting a reasonable value for AOB - possibly due to error in range calculations. (Does mast height include flag or not??) I usually set myself up for interceptions at 90deg (give or take a degree or two) AOB so that I can preset it on my dials. If I also know the speed (3.15 rule), it makes life a LOT easier.

Also, the closer you are, the greater your margin for error without missing. Try to get within 500m-1000m. :up:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Is there a mod that makes destroyers stop being retarded? Frankly, if real DD's were half as dumb I would've been the most famous U-boat captain ever. I've sunk scores of them by positioning myself near-perpendicular to their attack course then going ahead flank and turning hard into them when they close to about 400m. Immediately after they pass about 80m to stern I make a hard turn in the direction they turned and sink them with one torpedo (fast, 2m 10 degree lead fired at zero) when they come about. Barring dud torpedoes and the occasional target speed increase when the torp is spotted early this never fails against less than four DD's.

On that note, what is the damage radius for a depth charge of that vintage? Always thought it would be greater than 80m....

[Sailor Steve]

Notes for the Mk VII Heavy depth charge:
The British claimed this DC would split a 0.875 inch (22 mm) hull at 20 feet (6.1 m) and force a submarine to surface at about twice that distance. A minol charge introduced in 1942 increased these distances to 26 feet (7.9 m) and 52 feet (15.8 m), respectively.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_ASW.htm

[h.sie]

I have 1-2 questions about realism?

do you hardcore-players think that the default repair-times (SH3+GWX2) are reallistic?

if no: do you use the LRT (longer repair times) mod?

thanx

[Sailor Steve]

No, the stock repair times are just silly. Engine damaged, fixed two minutes later. If that was the case they wouldn't even tell you they had a problem.

LRT is the way to go, but I've heard it causes conflicts with GWX. Unfortunately I don't know what the problems are, or if the last version of LRT worked better. Somebody out there does, though, and we'll hear about it soon enough.

[onelifecrisis]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=634136&postcount=1

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Sailor Steve]

BANG!
:rotfl:

Thanks for posting that, OLC. That was during my homeless period, so I missed it - or dismissed it at the time simply because it had no direct bearing on my life.

There was a 'final' version created for GWX 2.0, which should work with 2.1 as well; the caveat being if it really works with 2.0 without breaking it. I suppose it really comes down to "use at your own risk".

[Randomizer]

One thing that generally gets omitted during the endless 'realism' debate is "real" U-Boat doctrine. It was doctrine that the 1WO did the torpedo shooting during surface attacks under direction of the Captain so adapting manual targeting in all instances is hardly 'realistic'. It is however, both fun and challenging. Doing so hurts no one. Likewise in early 1943 it was doctrine to stay up and fight it out with aircraft, paricularly transiting the Bay of Biscay. Doing so in GWX 2.1 is a good way to end a promising career but again, that was what they were ordered to do in reality. And many promising careers were ended, most rather horribly.

I suggest that so-called "realism" in any game lies in what the player puts into it and not so much what the programmers impose by software limitations or design philosophy.

This unsolicited $0.02 is brought to you in the spirit of Good Hunting.

[Sailor Steve]

One thing that generally gets omitted during the endless 'realism' debate is "real" U-Boat doctrine. It was doctrine that the 1WO did the torpedo shooting during surface attacks under direction of the Captain so adapting manual targeting in all instances is hardly 'realistic'.
It was also true that at the periscope the captain would focus the periscope and call out the range and bearing. He and his team would then do the math together. The only problem is that the 'Weapons Officer' in the game has a supernatural ability to be perfectly accurate all the time. Maybe someday it will be accurately modelled in a game, but not today and not this one.

I suggest that so-called "realism" in any game lies in what the player puts into it and not so much what the programmers impose by software limitations or design philosophy.
I completely agree. Sometimes I criticize when people are bragging about their great scores, and maybe I'm wrong. On the other hand, sometimes someone will say "I try to play realistically", and end up receiving a tirade about "it's only a game!"

This unsolicited $0.02 is brought to you in the spirit of Good Hunting.
Please bring more - I need the money.:rotfl:

[Delareon]

sry for pushing up an old thread but this one seems to be the best place for my question: Whats the max TC i can use without reducing the chance of air attacks?
Ive searched and readed two thing x128 and x256 but whats the correct value?

[Uber Gruber]

I'm not 100% sure but my gut says 256. That said, I always use a max of 128 when i', in the patrol zone and 256 when en-route by way of shipping lanes.

[jaxa]

x256
Over this setting possibility of air attacks is reduced.
My max setting for cruising in patrol zone is exactly 256, but as standard I use x128. Sailing home far away from enemy coasts I use max x512.

[Delareon]

Thank you very much Guys!
Think i have to play arround with it just to find out what fits my style of playing best.
x512 seems to be ok for me when heading to americas coast as long as im out of any
possible air attacks. But as soon as Air attacks are possible i want to have the risk ;)