Looks like we need to keep our camps in Guantanamo Bay open indefinitely

[SUBMAN1]

Isn't this just nice - :down: http://license.icopyright.net/user/viewFreeUse.act?fuid=MTAxMDIzNw%3D%3D

-S

[SUBMAN1]

That just proves Guantanamo is ineffective, then why would you want to keep it running ?Because the very people they release go out and carry out what they originally planned in the first place. So why close it down? It seems very effective to me in keeping idiots like this from strapping explosives on.

-S

[JetSnake]

The ineffective part is that the detainees are not being served justice quick enough. Think NATO 5.56 injections via firing squad.

[SUBMAN1]

The ineffective part is that the detainees are not being served justice quick enough. Think NATO 5.56 injections via firing squad.They have the right to do this, so I think they are being extremely over humane by keeping them alive in the camps, no? What do you think? I agree with you however.

-S

[JetSnake]

I think executions should be televised too. Heck even pay-for-view would be fine by me.

[SUBMAN1]

I think executions should be televised too. Heck even pay-for-view would be fine by me.THats a good way to get the message out. Used to work in the old days - hang them in the streets!

-S

[StdDev]

Put them to work sweeping the bottom of the Mariana Trench!

[PeriscopeDepth]

The ineffective part is that the detainees are not being served justice quick enough. Think NATO 5.56 injections via firing squad.They have the right to do this, so I think they are being extremely over humane by keeping them alive in the camps, no? What do you think? I agree with you however.

-S
Because we don't have the balls. And to try and claim the moral high ground in a fight where there is no place for morality. IMO.

PD

[iambecomelife]

Ok, put another way : if I were sent in an illegal jail without charge against me, spoiled from my rights, only to be released 3 and a half years later ? You bet I wouldn't just go back to my job and move on quietly.

Explain why Guantanamo is illegal.

And three years? Tough. Why should POW's be repatriated BEFORE their organizations stop waging war on the US?

[iambecomelife]

Isn't this just nice - :down: http://license.icopyright.net/user/viewFreeUse.act?fuid=MTAxMDIzNw%3D%3D

-S

Note how the lawyers say that he was an innocent little lamb until the evil Americans took him to Guantanamo. Please. :roll:

[mrbeast]

Ok, put another way : if I were sent in an illegal jail without charge against me, spoiled from my rights, only to be released 3 and a half years later ? You bet I wouldn't just go back to my job and move on quietly.

Explain why Guantanamo is illegal.

And three years? Tough. Why should POW's be repatriated BEFORE their organizations stop waging war on the US?

Well that would be logical if they were awarded the status of POW's.

Another thing that I find A little strange is that although Guantanamo is US terrirory, US law doesn't seem to apply there? :hmm:

[SUBMAN1]

Pretty much. Our laws don't apply to the Philippines (another US territory) either for example, so if you lived there, you get all the benefits from the USA, but you don't even have to pay taxes. Maybe I should move! :D

-S

[mrbeast]

Pretty much. Our laws don't apply to the Philippines (another US territory) either for example, so if you lived there, you get all the benefits from the USA, but you don't even have to pay taxes. Maybe I should move! :D

-S

I thought the Phillipines are an independant republic, did the US re-take control over them while I was away at work? :huh:

[Blacklight]

It just goes to show you that these idiots are not going to stop. Nor are they going to be rehabilitated. Their brainwashing is too strong. Even if you TRY to "rehabilitate" these guys, their beliefs are so ingrained in them that they'll just tell people what they want to hear so they can get released and continue with the bloodshed. :nope:

[SUBMAN1]

I thought the Phillipines are an independant republic, did the US re-take control over them while I was away at work? :huh:You may be right. Let me look it up. I know anyone that lives there can come here without restriction, etc.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Oops - its Puerto Rico that I am mixing it up with.

Current US territories:

American Samoa, Midway Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Puerto Rico, Guam, US Virgin Islands.

Regardless, if you live in any of these, no US laws apply, but you get all US benefits short of voting. You also don't have to pay any taxes.

-S

[mrbeast]

I thought the Phillipines are an independant republic, did the US re-take control over them while I was away at work? :huh:You may be right. Let me look it up. I know anyone that lives there can come here without restriction, etc.

-S

IIRC there is a similar status for Irish nationals here in the UK and I think some commonwealth countries too .

[Tchocky]

Hmph. Guantanamo. We can't release these dangerous freedom-haters, we know they're horrible people. The worst of the worst.
Prove it.
Ah. We can't try them. No US laws apply here. Sorry

How unfortunate that you decided to fly them to Guantanamo. How very unfortunate.

I'm sure that whatever happens will be fair and balanced.

The testimony from Davis marked the transformation of an outspoken defender of Guantanamo — he once compared putting detainees on trial to dragging "Dracula out into the sunlight" — into a persistent critic.
He alleged, among other things, that Haynes appeared shocked when Davis suggested in a 2005 meeting that acquittals, however disappointing, could boost the credibility of the system.
"He looked at me and said 'We can't have acquittals, we've been holding these guys for years,'" Davis testified. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iuZWtyV2t6N6AYyrw6fDnm3R36dgD90B80D82

Screw it, I can't say anything that hasn't been said. A bloody stain on the conscience of the US.

[SUBMAN1]

...Screw it, I can't say anything that hasn't been said. A bloody stain on the conscience of the US.Only when we release them.

-S

[Tchocky]

Yeah, that's why everyone else stands with the US on this issue.

Right.

[iambecomelife]

What's that noise? I think it's the world's smallest violin playing for Mr. Ajmi.

"bloody stain on our conscience!":rotfl:

I'm glad the rest of the world ISN'T on our side. Why should I care about the "rest of the world?" The same "rest of the world" that said the US deserved 9/11 even before the smoke had cleared?

If I've learned anything in recent times it's to make sure to do the OPPOSITE of what the "Ruins of Europe" tell us to. They talk about what a horrible country the US is, and then they expect us to follow their advice when dealing with terrorists? It makes no sense. You don't seek advice from those who wish you ill. :doh:

Later, people. The "stain on my conscience" is just too much to bear.:cry:

[Konovalov]

What's that noise? I think it's the world's smallest violin playing for Mr. Ajmi.
Who the heck is Mr Ajmi? :-?

[iambecomelife]

What's that noise? I think it's the world's smallest violin playing for Mr. Ajmi.
Who the heck is Mr Ajmi? :-?

The subject of the original article. He blew himself up, murdering 7 people.

[Tchocky]

I'm glad the rest of the world ISN'T on our side. Why should I care about the "rest of the world?" The same "rest of the world" that said the US deserved 9/11 even before the smoke had cleared? Do you even remember the response to 9/11? The front page of Le Monde proclaimed "We are all Americans now".
So in answer to your question, no. Not that "rest of the world". The one that, by and large, supported the US when it had been greviously wounded.
If I've learned anything in recent times it's to make sure to do the OPPOSITE of what the "Ruins of Europe" tell us to. They talk about what a horrible country the US is, and then they expect us to follow their advice when dealing with terrorists? It makes no sense. You don't seek advice from those who wish you ill. :doh: See my above comment on international attitudes.
Dealing with terrorists? Some of those in Cuba were bought by US forces in Afghanistan, no proof necessary, cold hard cash is the impetus. This strategy, combined with what have routinely been described as kangaroo courst, don't imbue the official statements of "terrorists" with much credibility. Certainly some are, but there are many victims of circumstance.

EDIT - If I was talking about how horrible the US is, I wouldn't have described Guantanamo as a stain. I thought that was obvious.
Later, people. The "stain on my conscience" is just too much to bear.:cry: A simple exercise of empathy would make this seem a lot less light-hearted.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Dealing with terrorists? Some of those in Cuba were bought by US forces in Afghanistan, no proof necessary, cold hard cash is the impetus. This strategy, combined with what have routinely been described as kangaroo courst, don't imbue the official statements of "terrorists" with much credibility. Certainly some are, but there are many victims of circumstance.
By "victims of circumstance", are you referring to Hamdan? The man was a willing bodyguard and fighter for someone whose organization's goal was to kill American civillians.

PD

[Tchocky]

Not familiar with the name, but if it's bin Laden's driver/bodyguard you mean, I recall all the charges against him being dropped.
However, that may say more about the murky/illegal proceedings than the giult/innocence of the prisoner.

I was referring to those who were bought by US forces in Afghanistan.

That day, leaflets and loudspeaker announcements promised "the big prize" to those who turned in al-Qaida fighters.
Said one leaflet: "You can receive millions of dollars. ... This is enough to take care of your family, your village, your tribe for the rest of your life — pay for livestock and doctors and school books and housing for all your people."


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0531-10.htm

[PeriscopeDepth]

Not familiar with the name, but if it's bin Laden's driver/bodyguard you mean, I recall all the charges against him being dropped.
However, that may say more about the murky/illegal proceedings than the giult/innocence of the prisoner.

I was referring to those who were bought by US forces in Afghanistan.


Okay gotcha. As for Hamdan, charges were dropped because it was ruled the court that tried him didn't have the juridstiction to so. As he was ruled an "enemy combatant", not a "unlwawful enemy combatant" as would have been required. This also invalidated all the other Guantanamo prisoner rulings, IIRC.

And I agree, the way we whored out capturing prisoners to the Northern Alliance is ridiculous. But we had to come up with some prisoners. And the fact is we were a day late and a dollar short in gettting there. Nearly 30 days after almost 3,000 American civillians are killed...We start bombing and relying on special forces working with NA fighters as our boots on the ground. OBL and his buddies could have merrily skipped out of Afghanistan and cleared the border in any direction by that time. So we had to make do with buying prisoners from their tribal enemies; free market regulating itself I guess???

PD

[Ducimus]

The ineffective part is that the detainees are not being served justice quick enough. Think NATO 5.56 injections via firing squad.They have the right to do this, so I think they are being extremely over humane by keeping them alive in the camps, no? What do you think? I agree with you however.

-S

First let me say i have no love of fantatical towelheads and islam, and im not sure what to do about gitmo in general, but i do know one thing for sure. That Gitmo should not become a modernized version of a Nazi Death camp. I dont want to give the world a legitimate reason to equate the American flag with the swaztika.

[Skybird]

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7051/guantanamo9ux5.gif (http://imageshack.us)


http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2229/n76292061154668237032zx6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Ducimus]

Ok skybird, ive been looking for a excuse to link this picture for weeks, thanks!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/walker66/bush-constitution.jpg

That, "said", again, i have no idea what to do, only what we shouldnt do. No matter how much we may think we'd like to. (IE, shoot the bastards)

[PeriscopeDepth]

That's hilarious Ducimus. :lol:

PD

[baggygreen]

Serious question to those who oppose sending anyone to gitmo as people seem to love calling it (its certainly a lot easier to spell!)

what do you propose we do with terrorists when they're caught? let em go again?

surely you all dont propose we put them through the same legal systems that lets convicted killers out in less than 10 years, convicted kiddie fiddlers out ever, etc? like subman said, these fanatics will not change their ways. let em go they'll come away with all sorts of knowledge garned from our hospitality in pretty cushy surroundings, and they'll come back for a 'visit' later on..

[Tchocky]

If every person sent to Guantanamo was a nasty terrorist, then we wouldn't have seen most of them released without charge. (edit - that's a bit on the nose, I admit, I just don't believe a bloddy thing that comes out of there)
Guantanamo has nothing to do with terrorism or how to deal with it.

EDIT - No, we wouldn't let them go again. THere are more than two options here. Deny terrorist crimes any sort of special treatment, lock them up for mass murder.
DON'T round up people en masse and throw them into a legal black hole, possibly torturing them. None of thsi secrecy bull****. None of this "forced-positioning". All that does is confirm everything that Al-Qaeda says about the West. We're better than that.

[iambecomelife]

"We are all Americans now"? Yeah, that's why they spend sooo much time calling Americans fascists & imperialists.:rotfl:

Again, i find it extremely funny how they admit that they hate the US and then demand that we follow their advice to fight terrorism.

I seem to recall a VERY compassionate article from the Euro's in the days after 9/11. "A Bully With a Bloody Nose is Still a Bully". Very little international goodwill was squandered becaus it was never there to begin with.

Oh, and here's one of our German friends who showed some heartfelt sympathy with the US:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/07/AR2007120702404.html?sub=AR

http://pillageidiot.blogspot.com/2007/12/stockhausens-death-was-great-work-of.html

[iambecomelife]

Serious question to those who oppose sending anyone to gitmo as people seem to love calling it (its certainly a lot easier to spell!)

what do you propose we do with terrorists when they're caught? let em go again?

surely you all dont propose we put them through the same legal systems that lets convicted killers out in less than 10 years, convicted kiddie fiddlers out ever, etc? like subman said, these fanatics will not change their ways. let em go they'll come away with all sorts of knowledge garned from our hospitality in pretty cushy surroundings, and they'll come back for a 'visit' later on..

A lot of the "international community" probably WOULD want the terrorists set free, so long as there was some way to make sure they only attacked American interests. Many people were not at all unhappy about the attacks - see the links above.

[Tchocky]

"The euro's" - Europe is not one single entity or opinion bloc. To quote GWB, you forgot Poland.
Again, I find it extremely funny how they admit that they hate the US and then demand that we follow their advice to fight terrorism.
I think you are confusing criticism with hate, whether wilfully or not I can't say.
Where's this admission of hate, by the way?

[iambecomelife]

"The euro's" - Europe is not one single entity or opinion bloc. To quote GWB, you forgot Poland.
Again, I find it extremely funny how they admit that they hate the US and then demand that we follow their advice to fight terrorism.
I think you are confusing criticism with hate, whether wilfully or not I can't say.
Where's this admission of hate, by the way?

:roll: Well, you could google "Margaret Drabble", for one. I'll give her this - at least she dispenses with all the phony sympathy for America. I admire her honesty.

Where did I say that Europe was a single entity? The "Bloody Nose" article was written by a European -hence the reference to "Euro's".

[iambecomelife]

http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/05/08/do0801.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2003/05/08/ixopinion.html

"We are ALL AMERICANS NOW!" :D

[Tchocky]

The endless "they...they...they". There are a lot of European countries that are supportive of the US both morally and militarily, admittedly less so in the last couple of years.

That some individuals hate the US does not make sympathy shown by others false. hy is the sympathy phony?

[baggygreen]

If every person sent to Guantanamo was a nasty terrorist, then we wouldn't have seen most of them released without charge. (edit - that's a bit on the nose, I admit, I just don't believe a bloddy thing that comes out of there)
Guantanamo has nothing to do with terrorism or how to deal with it.

EDIT - No, we wouldn't let them go again. THere are more than two options here. Deny terrorist crimes any sort of special treatment, lock them up for mass murder.
DON'T round up people en masse and throw them into a legal black hole, possibly torturing them. None of thsi secrecy bull****. None of this "forced-positioning". All that does is confirm everything that Al-Qaeda says about the West. We're better than that.

I have to say i dont realllly agree much with what you said here tchock, guantanamo has everything to do with terrorism imo because thats where people suspected (innocent until proven guilty, obviously) are predominantly sent, kept etc. but thats a minor difference in interpretations of interest i think.

more to the point, i'll say i've not seen any evidence of people getting rounded up en masse and locked up. i've read similar charges by many people claiming its all a control-conspiracy-thing, but i've not seen evidence. we all know that the en masse claim can't be used just by the number of detainees, but if you can point to evidence on this one, by all means i'll look at it in depth!:)

I do agree in part with the secrecy thing though.. partly yes cos itd be nice to see what is really going on (be it good or bad) , im personally of the opinion we'd find theres been a lot of nasty stuff stopped that would simply be frightening but we'll never know. The partly no however, comes from that i can appreciate that they simply cant afford to release so much of the information they're gaining, etc. simply because to give it out would jeopardise ongoing operations.

Still im sure theres a lot they're able to release but probably cbf going through the effort of sorting it out.

[iambecomelife]

The endless "they...they...they". There are a lot of European countries that are supportive of the US both morally and militarily, admittedly less so in the last couple of years.

That some individuals hate the US does not make sympathy shown by others false. hy is the sympathy phony?

Did I say all the sympathy was phony? Did I say every foreigner hated the US? No? Then what's the point?

Oh, and I agree that our transatlantic "friends" have been VERY supportive of the US. After all, what else can you say about people who call 9/11 the "greatest work of art" ever produced? :lol:

Supportive of the US. Comedy.

Respect to the minority abroad who ARE genuinely supportive and/or fighting against militant Islam.

[Gorduz]

Have any of you seen this movie? http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=82 . Its quite disturbing. After being held prisoner for several years without any evidence I to would be pissed, hell picture that my wife had left me in the meantime, sold the house and I've lost my job. I just just might consider doing a bomrun.

[Skybird]

the nice-talking of torture by calling the same procedure something different, in the end was a shot going to the wroing direction by 180°. Because what now is called enhanced interrogation, equals the german term "verschärftes Verhör".

Which is an old Gestapo term.

And guantanamo, a camp of arbitrary arrest, and without legal basis, and without any supervision by jurisdiction of another organ of national society, where guilt must not be proven for the fact of being there is enough to prove your guilt, is not any different from the old Gestapo dungeons.

In the beginning, people did not believe when looking at Germany. And when the first rumours appeared, nations looked away.

As long as Guantanamo is what it is, and as long as torture is called enhanced interrogation, and as long as a reasonable legal basis for imprisonment is not taken care of, I will compare it to the Gestapo, alwqays. simply believing what a spokesman says, is not enough in a democratic civil society. you want chcks and balances. And if you will to skip these in favour of driving such institutions because you consider them to be inline with your own demands and intentions, you are not any better than people working in and accepting the existence of the Gestapo.

I hope some concerned minds here feel offended. But fact is - you offend yourself, and the noble intentions and ideas America once, long ago, was founded on.

[Schroeder]

What's that noise?

I'm glad the rest of the world ISN'T on our side. Why should I care about the "rest of the world?" The same "rest of the world" that said the US deserved 9/11 even before the smoke had cleared?
You have already heard that there are other nations involved in the war in Afghanistan as well?

By the way it was the German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder (no, my nick has nothing to do with him) who called this not an attack on the US alone but an attack on NATO (why would he do that if we all hate you?). The attack was a shock for Europe too!


If I've learned anything in recent times it's to make sure to do the OPPOSITE of what the "Ruins of Europe" tell us to. They talk about what a horrible country the US is, and then they expect us to follow their advice when dealing with terrorists? It makes no sense. You don't seek advice from those who wish you ill. :doh:
Who is wishing you ill?
Are we wishing you ill because we didn't go to Iraq?
Iraq was an illegal private crusade of your president. I'm glad we didn't participate. We even warned you of the mess this would become. Is it now our fault that you didn't listen to our advises?

Guantanamo has lowered the reputation of the US dramatically. A country that claims to fight for human rights, liberty and to be the "good one" should be better than denying prisoners basic rights like being tried, having lawyers etc. That's the behaviour that dictatorships show to people they want to have out of the way.
I don't like those extremists either and if they are guilty of murder or attempted murder then let them rot there for the rest of their lifes. But as long as they are not even allowed to defend themselves properly you are acting like the countrys you count to the "evil" ones.

[TheSatyr]

Over the past 5 years the USA has lost it's moral compass and it's consience...we are no longer the Nation we used to be. The terrorists have won.

And what the hell good does killing and torturing terrorists do anyway? Israel has been doing it for decades,and the only terrorist group they managed to pretty much stop was the PLO...and that was by talking to them. Hezbollah,Hamas,Islamic Jihad...Israel has been fighting them for decades...and they are still there.

The USA has learned NOTHING!!!!!

[antikristuseke]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Something for you to think about Subman

[August]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
... and will in the end lose both.

Way too simplistic.

Freedom of speech is essential but outlawing the right to yell fire in a crowded theater will hardly bring down the republic.

Standing armies are the bane of freedom but try surviving in this world without one.

[iambecomelife]

You see, this is why I KNOW that Bush is right - how much he ticks off the Euro-Leftists. :D

I ask again - If Americans are considered Nazis by the Europeans (quite funny, considering their own history), why on Earth should Americans listen to all this bleating from across the pond? I guess that all this unsolicited advice is intended to help the "Nazis".:rotfl:

[iambecomelife]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
... and will in the end lose both.

Way too simplistic.

Freedom of speech is essential but outlawing the right to yell fire in a crowded theater will hardly bring down the republic.

Standing armies are the bane of freedom but try surviving in this world without one.

Don't even bother. This is not about reason - it's about a massive inferiority conflex and decades of rabid anti-Americanism.

I agree that this way of thinking is too simplistic. Let me tell you about freedom and security - In my region the government decided to deprive a "person" (and I use the term loosely) of his freedom because he hacked some people to death with a machete. Does that mean the citizens in my area don't deserve liberty or safety? Are we turning into a police state? What would Ben Franklin say?

Oh, and the left-wingers shouldn't even be quoting Ben. Didn't they get the memo? He was a Very Evil Slave Owning White Man! (tm)

[antikristuseke]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
... and will in the end lose both.

Way too simplistic.

Freedom of speech is essential but outlawing the right to yell fire in a crowded theater will hardly bring down the republic.

Standing armies are the bane of freedom but try surviving in this world without one.

Don't even bother. This is not about reason - it's about a massive inferiority conflex and decades of rabid anti-Americanism.

I agree that this way of thinking is too simplistic. Let me tell you about freedom and security - In my region the government decided to deprive a "person" (and I use the term loosely) of his freedom because he hacked some people to death with a machete. Does that mean the citizens in my area don't deserve liberty or safety? Are we turning into a police state? What would Ben Franklin say?

Oh, and the left-wingers shouldn't even be quoting Ben. Didn't they get the memo? He was a Very Evil Slave Owning White Man! (tm)

Excuse me? First of all, I am not anti american, secondly im not a left winger, nor am I a right winger. Thirdly, inferiority complex? Get over yourself.
Allso locking up a convicted murderer hardly constitutes giving up liberty. Anyhow yes you are becoming a police state, but so is every other western world nation to some degree. The reason I quoted Franklin was to bring some attention to how your country is moving away from the principles it was founded on, not to say that imprisoning convicted criminals is somehow wrong.

Oh noes, a slave owner. I am a decendant of slaves, so what? Him owning slaves or not does not make his point any less valid.

[PeriscopeDepth]

iambecomelife, you are ignoring that Belgian, Danish, Dutch, Norwegian, German, and French troops have all seen combat in Afghanistan. Some have died. Pissing on that is pretty disrespectful, IMO.

PD

[trekchu]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
... and will in the end lose both.

Way too simplistic.

Freedom of speech is essential but outlawing the right to yell fire in a crowded theater will hardly bring down the republic.

Standing armies are the bane of freedom but try surviving in this world without one.

Don't even bother. This is not about reason - it's about a massive inferiority conflex and decades of rabid anti-Americanism.

I agree that this way of thinking is too simplistic. Let me tell you about freedom and security - In my region the government decided to deprive a "person" (and I use the term loosely) of his freedom because he hacked some people to death with a machete. Does that mean the citizens in my area don't deserve liberty or safety? Are we turning into a police state? What would Ben Franklin say?

Oh, and the left-wingers shouldn't even be quoting Ben. Didn't they get the memo? He was a Very Evil Slave Owning White Man! (tm)

Inferiority complex my foot. Rabid Anit-Americanism equally so. Have you ever considered that maybe poeple tend to dislike America nowadays not because it is America per se but simply because what you do is sometimes against everything Millions of British, French Soviets and Americans died for just about 70 years ago? Or what we have learned since then? I am not against detaining criminals but if Germany started detaining people like you do in Guantanamo I have a strong suspicion that Washington would be the first to cry "NAZIS" and point their finger at us. Now if you do that we are all supposed to shut up as we are nto allowed to critizie the United States since the fight for Freedom (tm) ? Oh bloody hell....... :damn:

[iambecomelife]

iambecomelife, you are ignoring that Belgian, Danish, Dutch, Norwegian, German, and French troops have all seen combat in Afghanistan. Some have died. Pissing on that is pretty disrespectful, IMO.

PD

Um, did you read my earlier post? I acknowledged the people abroad who ARE fighting with the US.

[iambecomelife]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
... and will in the end lose both.

Way too simplistic.

Freedom of speech is essential but outlawing the right to yell fire in a crowded theater will hardly bring down the republic.

Standing armies are the bane of freedom but try surviving in this world without one.

Don't even bother. This is not about reason - it's about a massive inferiority conflex and decades of rabid anti-Americanism.

I agree that this way of thinking is too simplistic. Let me tell you about freedom and security - In my region the government decided to deprive a "person" (and I use the term loosely) of his freedom because he hacked some people to death with a machete. Does that mean the citizens in my area don't deserve liberty or safety? Are we turning into a police state? What would Ben Franklin say?

Oh, and the left-wingers shouldn't even be quoting Ben. Didn't they get the memo? He was a Very Evil Slave Owning White Man! (tm)

Inferiority complex my foot. Rabid Anit-Americanism equally so. Have you ever considered that maybe poeple tend to dislike America nowadays not because it is America per se but simply because what you do is sometimes against everything Millions of British, French Soviets and Americans died for just about 70 years ago? Or what we have learned since then? I am not against detaining criminals but if Germany started detaining people like you do in Guantanamo I have a strong suspicion that Washington would be the first to cry "NAZIS" and point their finger at us. Now if you do that we are all supposed to shut up as we are nto allowed to critizie the United States since the fight for Freedom (tm) ? Oh bloody hell....... :damn:

Strawman. Maybe someone could do me a favor and find the post where I said everyone should "shut up" and fall in line. The Euro's have got the right to foam at the mouth over GWB. I have the right to an opinion about the foaminess, myself - I guess.

All the Euro's rhapsodizing about how the US used to be their idol are full of it. I read an interesting story about how some French observers acknowledged one of the recent D-Day anniversaries. How did they celebrate it? By focusing on the rapes that American soldiers had committed. Way to grasp the historical context, people!:up: BTW, feel free to erect another strawman about me hating all the French, etc etc. I can smell it coming. :sunny:

[iambecomelife]

http://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/:Kommentar-Amerika-Westen/551571.html

"We Are All Americans Now": Exhibit # 2 :D

[trekchu]

All the Euro's rhapsodizing about how the US used to be their idol are full of it. I read an interesting story about how some French observers acknowledged one of the recent D-Day anniversaries. How did they celebrate it? By focusing on the rapes that American soldiers had committed. Way to grasp the historical context, people!:up: BTW, feel free to erect another strawman about me hating all the French, etc etc. I can smell it coming. :sunny:


I rest my case.


Edit: Seriously though, That is NOT an inferiority Complex. Germany starting to World Wars, thats an inferiority Complex. But we are past that, and that is something that some Americans don't understand. We have learned from two World Wars that alternate solutions are almost always the best.

[iambecomelife]

All the Euro's rhapsodizing about how the US used to be their idol are full of it. I read an interesting story about how some French observers acknowledged one of the recent D-Day anniversaries. How did they celebrate it? By focusing on the rapes that American soldiers had committed. Way to grasp the historical context, people!:up: BTW, feel free to erect another strawman about me hating all the French, etc etc. I can smell it coming. :sunny:


I rest my case.


Edit: Seriously though, That is NOT an inferiority Complex. Germany starting to World Wars, thats an inferiority Complex. But we are past that, and that is something that some Americans don't understand. We have learned from two World Wars that alternate solutions are almost always the best.

Let me be the first person to say that I do NOT consider modern-day Germans at all responsible for what SOME of their forefathers did - if I did then there is no way that I would play this game. After all, it's not like the US has anything to boast about when it comes to violence & treatment of minorities. I get extremely angry with people when Germany comes up in the course of a conversation and five seconds later someone makes a stupid crack about the Nazis. I still remember when someone at my supposedly "tolerant" college did this in front of a visiting German professor. :nope:

When I speak of an inferiority complex I am referring to some of the more extreme "professional" anti-Americans. I am not referring to the anti-war movement as a whole because there are plenty of excellent reasons to oppose the war (and other aspects of US foreign policy).

[trekchu]

Double post, but this does not fit into an edit.


What I also meant to say is that I admit there is some serious America Bashing going on here. But have you ever considered that we might be equally annoyed about the Euro bashing going on in the States simply because we didn't want to be drawn into any more military ****-ups?

[iambecomelife]

Double post, but this does not fit into an edit.


What I also meant to say is that I admit there is some serious America Bashing going on here. But have you ever considered that we might be equally annoyed about the Euro bashing going on in the States simply because we didn't want to be drawn into any more military ****-ups?

Fair enough although IMO this war does not compare with prior conflicts in terms of bloodshed.

Nevertheless, that's right - every country has the right to decide whether or not it will participate in a conflict.

However, all I ask is for the people who flaunt their "loathing" for America not to be surprised when the "Amerikkkans" start to tune them out.:roll:

[trekchu]

Let me be the first person to say that I do NOT consider modern-day Germans at all responsible for what SOME of their forefathers did - if I did then there is no way that I would play this game. After all, it's not like the US has anything to boast about when it comes to violence & treatment of minorities. I get extremely angry with people when Germany comes up in the course of a conversation and five seconds later someone makes a stupid crack about the Nazis. I still remember when someone at my supposedly "tolerant" college did this in front of a visiting German professor. :nope:


I never said you did.


BTW, there are no professional anti-americans here, and I still don't get wha critizizing American foreign policy in the press implies an inferiority complex. If we had one we'd be brownosing the States all the time.


EDIT: But then they have to live with the fact that we a) start nagging about them b) start laughing about them and c) at some point simply ingnore them.

2nd Edit: I need coffee.... *impersonates Zombie*

[iambecomelife]

BTW, there are no professional anti-americans here, and I still don't get wha critizizing American foreign policy in the press implies an inferiority complex. If we had one we'd be brownosing the States all the time.

But I DON'T think criticizing America in the press NECESSARILY implies an inferiority complex. It's all about tone and context. Some writers criticize specific aspects of foreign policy, propose plausible alternatives, and refrain from drawing conclusions about the population as a whole. Others - well, let's just say they take a different approach.

[trekchu]

BTW, there are no professional anti-americans here, and I still don't get wha critizizing American foreign policy in the press implies an inferiority complex. If we had one we'd be brownosing the States all the time.

But I DON'T think criticizing America in the press NECESSARILY implies an inferiority complex. It's all about tone and context. Some writers criticize specific aspects of foreign policy, propose plausible alternatives, and refrain from drawing conclusions about the population as a whole. Others - well, let's just say they take a different approach.

*nods* I have to admit that you do have a point there. Several of my Friends are from the States ( including my best mate ) and they are pretty normal. ( As normal as an American can be seen in Europe. ;) )

However: The same goes for the American press, and as long as they keep doing that ours will do so aswell. While this may seem childish in a way its just fair IMVHO.

[PeriscopeDepth]

iambecomelife, you are ignoring that Belgian, Danish, Dutch, Norwegian, German, and French troops have all seen combat in Afghanistan. Some have died. Pissing on that is pretty disrespectful, IMO.

PD
Um, did you read my earlier post? I acknowledged the people abroad who ARE fighting with the US. Yes, but regardless of that you seem to generalize Euros as anti-American. Which certainly can't be the case if their elected governments deem sending their citizens to die for our cause as appropriate.

PD

[Happy Times]

BTW, there are no professional anti-americans here, and I still don't get wha critizizing American foreign policy in the press implies an inferiority complex. If we had one we'd be brownosing the States all the time.




Im critical of some things in America, but i dont see its fair to not talk about the lots of positives that i feel are greater than the negatives.
To be honest, there are lots of professional anti-americans in Europe. All socialists i know despise their politics, no matter who is in power, but also the whole American way of life. The ideals of capitalism and minimal state control over individual scares them.
Some others might embrase all the comforts and entertainment originating from America but stilll are very critical and like to look down on Americans.
I would say there is lots of envy in Europe towards America that explains this,
I dont know about the German psyche too much, but looking from outside they seem to have a collective trauma going on.
France can openly say they want protect their culture from "Americanization" and project their power in many ways.
Britain is both laughed at and envyed, because of if its special realationship, in the mainland Europe.
Off course the are many that only oppose the current goverment in the US because off their policies and dont mix anything else with it, nothing wrong with that.

[Happy Times]

Just in case you didn't notice, France government changed last year, and the new president is wetting himself for GWB. He was for the Irak war despite saying the opposite later when he saw that most people are against. He can't do anything about it now because there would be riots, but he's gonna send more troops to Afghanistan to please Rice and GWB, plus the carrier which is currently in dry dock for refit. And as said thousands of times, being anti Irak war is hardly anti american, calling GWB a moron isn't either. Anti americanism is an urban legend for me, you'll find tons of not much educated people in france who don't like americans. Right, but they don't like britishs either, they're also anti arabs, anti blacks, you get the picture. Now tell me that sort of people doesn't exist in every country in the world ?
France protecting its culture, seriously, what culture are we talking about here ?
Edit : for guantanamo as for any jail for that matter, locking people without charges is just like starting a time bomb, try to imagine yourself in that situation.

I ment, France wants to be an independent player in the world politics and it promotes its culture and language openly. He is going to send troops to Afganistan because thats in the interest of France, he also wants to increase Frances influence in the middle east, rivaling with US and UK. Anti Americanism isnt a myth, im not sayin its the majority either. Majority of socialists are against anything American, il stand by that claim, do you no many that arent?

[iambecomelife]

iambecomelife, you are ignoring that Belgian, Danish, Dutch, Norwegian, German, and French troops have all seen combat in Afghanistan. Some have died. Pissing on that is pretty disrespectful, IMO.

PD
Um, did you read my earlier post? I acknowledged the people abroad who ARE fighting with the US. Yes, but regardless of that you seem to generalize Euros as anti-American. Which certainly can't be the case if their elected governments deem sending their citizens to die for our cause as appropriate.

PD

Not sure how you can "generalize" someone like Margaret Drabble as anti-American. She and those who share her policies ARE anti-American (although I don't really know your politics - perhaps you consider her article to be rational criticism). Don't equate criticizing her ilk with generalizing about Europe as a whole.

[Ishmael]

To me the solution is quite simple. Military commissions have no basis or validity under law and any "Trials" would be seen as the kangaroo courts they are by the Muslim world. So the question becomes, how do you try these guys in such a way as to show legitimacy in the Muslim world?

The solution? Try them in Islamic courts under the most stringent Taliban application of Sharia by our own hand-picked Islamic judges under the full glare of publicity. Then, when they're convicted, take them out into intenational waters, hoist the Jolly Roger, cut off their right hands and make them walk the plank in shark-infested waters as an example of Islamic "mercy". That way we can say we didn't kill them, the sharks did. I would also videotape them being eaten and send copies to the families.

[Schroeder]

Well, the point that bothers me most is that everyone seems to believe that every guy in Guantanamo is guilty. We had a case recently when a German citizen had to be released from Guantanamo because he was innocent.

How do you know that all of them are guilty? Almost no one has been tried. You can throw everyone in there as "a matter of national security" and don't have to proof a thing. They don't have a chance to defend themselves. That's what is unjust. That are basic rules of every country that considers it self a state under the rule of law.

As I already said, if they are guilty let them rot in hell, but you have to proof it. Otherwise you are acting like China or North Korea.
I really don't like the Islam at all. (some remember my position on Christianity from the thread about the “disturbing Christian website"? I think the Islam is much worse.) And therefore we shouldn't lower ourselves to their level.

By the way, there is a saying that goes:
One who is fighting a monster must be very careful not to become a monster himself.
(I forgot where I have it from and from what nation it was, but I think it is true.)

[Skybird]

To me the solution is quite simple. Military commissions have no basis or validity under law and any "Trials" would be seen as the kangaroo courts they are by the Muslim world. So the question becomes, how do you try these guys in such a way as to show legitimacy in the Muslim world?

The solution? Try them in Islamic courts under the most stringent Taliban application of Sharia by our own hand-picked Islamic judges under the full glare of publicity. Then, when they're convicted, take them out into intenational waters, hoist the Jolly Roger, cut off their right hands and make them walk the plank in shark-infested waters as an example of Islamic "mercy". That way we can say we didn't kill them, the sharks did. I would also videotape them being eaten and send copies to the families.
Don't lower yourself to such levels, not you! I usually have a high opinion of you. ;)

It's also a bit illogical to assume that Sharia could work in defence of Western values , views and civilisation. So, "handpicked Islamic judges" would be the reason why all this would not do well at all in showing legitimacy to the Muslim world.

[iambecomelife]

Well, the point that bothers me most is that everyone seems to believe that every guy in Guantanamo is guilty. We had a case recently when a German citizen had to be released from Guantanamo because he was innocent.

How do you know that all of them are guilty? Almost no one has been tried. You can throw everyone in there as "a matter of national security" and don't have to proof a thing. They don't have a chance to defend themselves. That's what is unjust. That are basic rules of every country that considers it self a state under the rule of law.

As I already said, if they are guilty let them rot in hell, but you have to proof it. Otherwise you are acting like China or North Korea.
I really don't like the Islam at all. (some remember my position on Christianity from the thread about the “disturbing Christian website"? I think the Islam is much worse.) And therefore we shouldn't lower ourselves to their level.

By the way, there is a saying that goes:
One who is fighting a monster must be very careful not to become a monster himself.
(I forgot where I have it from and from what nation it was, but I think it is true.)

Much of this stems from the extremists' tactics of blending in with civilians and not fighting in uniform. Now that it's been proven how advantageous it is to violate traditional rules of war, we can expect more of this in future conflicts. How many WWII POW's benefited from having legal counsel, or were the subject of demonstrations by citizens afraid that their "rights" were being violated? I suppose some people prefer to fight AQ, while others prefer mainly to question the motives of the people who captured the detainees.

[Schroeder]

Much of this stems from the extremists' tactics of blending in with civilians and not fighting in uniform. Now that it's been proven how advantageous it is to violate traditional rules of war, we can expect more of this in future conflicts. How many WWII POW's benefited from having legal counsel, or were the subject of demonstrations by citizens afraid that their "rights" were being violated? I suppose some people prefer to fight AQ, while others prefer mainly to question the motives of the people who captured the detainees.
POWs of WWII had uniforms and so it was clear that they were enemies of the side that captured them. So why should they have been tried?
In the case of Guantanamo we have no clue how it was determined that these people are really terrorists. Theoretically any person could be arrested and claimed to be a terrorist (that could even cause blackmailing: Give me 5000$ or I'll arrest you as a terrorist and there is nothing you could do about it. You will neither be tried nor allowed to defend yourself in any other way....)
I don't know whether anything like that has happened yet but it could go that way couldn't it?

By the way, who can accuse people of being terrorist? Every soldier of the US? Do they have to proof it when they accuse someone?

What makes you so sure that every guy in there has deserved that fate?

Not every Muslim is a terrorist and as long as those people aren't tried fairly there is no telling how many of those might just have been at the wrong place at the wrong time.
"Everyone is innocent until guilt has been proven." is a sentence that can be found in pretty much all states under the rule of law.
Ignoring that puts America on the same level as countries like North Korea.

I think it is quite odd to claim to fight for human rights, democracy etc. while not even sticking to basic rules of humanity.

(Yes I know the terrorists don't stick to humanity too but that's just one more reason to do it.)

Just my very humble opinion.

[iambecomelife]

Much of this stems from the extremists' tactics of blending in with civilians and not fighting in uniform. Now that it's been proven how advantageous it is to violate traditional rules of war, we can expect more of this in future conflicts. How many WWII POW's benefited from having legal counsel, or were the subject of demonstrations by citizens afraid that their "rights" were being violated? I suppose some people prefer to fight AQ, while others prefer mainly to question the motives of the people who captured the detainees.
POWs of WWII had uniforms and so it was clear that they were enemies of the side that captured them. So why should they have been tried?
In the case of Guantanamo we have no clue how it was determined that these people are really terrorists. Theoretically any person could be arrested and claimed to be a terrorist (that could even cause blackmailing: Give me 5000$ or I'll arrest you as a terrorist and there is nothing you could do about it. You will neither be tried nor allowed to defend yourself in any other way....)
I don't know whether anything like that has happened yet but it could go that way couldn't it?

By the way, who can accuse people of being terrorist? Every soldier of the US? Do they have to proof it when they accuse someone?

What makes you so sure that every guy in there has deserved that fate?


Not every Muslim is a terrorist and as long as those people aren't tried fairly there is no telling how many of those might just have been at the wrong place at the wrong time.
"Everyone is innocent until guilt has been proven." is a sentence that can be found in pretty much all states under the rule of law.
Ignoring that puts America on the same level as countries like North Korea.

I think it is quite odd to claim to fight for human rights, democracy etc. while not even sticking to basic rules of humanity.

(Yes I know the terrorists don't stick to humanity too but that's just one more reason to do it.)

Just my very humble opinion.

So now America = North Korea, eh? Anti-US sentiment: the biggest Urban Legend of all time.:roll:

Did I say that everyone accused of terrorism is a terrorist? Did I say that every Muslim is a terrorist? Step back for a second, take a little time to read the other posts, and stop putting words in my mouth.

No telling how many are innocent? OTOH, there's no telling how many are guilty. In law enforcement & war it is inevitable that some innocent people will be punished. The devil's in the details - is the system MOSTLY punishing the innocent or is it accurate the vast majority of the time? When they are released, sometimes the world ends up paying a price.

And you're talking RIGHT past me. My point is that from now on, assuming nothing changes it will be considered highly advantageous to fight out of uniform. Because it will be easier to profess innocence non-uniformed combatants will claim the right to counsel, immediate repatriation, and other privileges not normally accorded uniformed combatants. I know it's what I'd do if I were an opponent of the US. This is nothing but militant radicals using their opponents' comparative humanity against them.

[Schroeder]

After reading my last post again I have to confess that it sounds as if I accused you of thinking that all Muslims are terrorists. Sorry for that, I didn't intend to do that.:-?
I wanted to point out that I fear that some people were arrested arbitrarily.

I chose the America=North Korea comparison because NK is one of the worst examples for abandoning basic human rights. I know that the US is still far away from that but there is a tendency in that direction and that should be stopped.

But how about you answer some of the questions I asked in my last post.

1. How was determined that those people are terrorists?
2. Who is allowed to accuse people of terrorism and arrest them?
3. How is ensured that those people can't abuse their power if no one is ever asking questions (the police has to collect evidence to convince a judge of the guilt of someone)
4. Can fundamental laws be cast aside if they become inconvenient?

You are right that it is difficult to stick to common laws if the enemy doesn't. But what separates us from them if we lower ourselves to their level? We just create more people that hate us.

By the way I'm not anti American, I'm just anti "some sh*t happening in the US right now". That doesn't make me hate the entire US.:cool::yep:

[Platapus]

....In the case of Guantanamo we have no clue how it was determined that these people are really terrorists. Theoretically any person could be arrested and claimed to be a terrorist (that could even cause blackmailing: Give me 5000$ or I'll arrest you as a terrorist and there is nothing you could do about it. You will neither be tried nor allowed to defend yourself in any other way....)

Were we not paying bounty hunters cash for every "terrorist" that they brought in? Talk about conflict of interest! For the right bounty I am sure everyone looked like a terrorist to a hungry bounty hunter.

I wonder how much we paid for each of these "terrorists"?

[iambecomelife]

After reading my last post again I have to confess that it sounds as if I accused you of thinking that all Muslims are terrorists. Sorry for that, I didn't intend to do that.:-?
I wanted to point out that I fear that some people were arrested arbitrarily.

I chose the America=North Korea comparison because NK is one of the worst examples for abandoning basic human rights. I know that the US is still far away from that but there is a tendency in that direction and that should be stopped.

But how about you answer some of the questions I asked in my last post.

1. How was determined that those people are terrorists?
2. Who is allowed to accuse people of terrorism and arrest them?
3. How is ensured that those people can't abuse their power if no one is ever asking questions (the police has to collect evidence to convince a judge of the guilt of someone)
4. Can fundamental laws be cast aside if they become inconvenient?

You are right that it is difficult to stick to common laws if the enemy doesn't. But what separates us from them if we lower ourselves to their level? We just create more people that hate us.

By the way I'm not anti American, I'm just anti "some sh*t happening in the US right now". That doesn't make me hate the entire US.:cool::yep:

Fair enough. I suppose it's all a balancing act in which you try to protect your country without violating people's civil rights. As much as I dislike some of the people on the opposite end of the political spectrum, without their dissenting opinions I think America WOULD end up becoming the police state that they fear.

I wish there was some effective way to hold these people accountable for fighting outside of uniform without resorting to collective reprisals, or capturing people just based on the word of the tribesmen in the Northern Alliance.

[Schroeder]

:up:

[Tchocky]

This is the kind of thing that gives me no confidence whatsoever in those responsible for Guantanamo.

http://kdka.com/national/Mohammed.al.Qahtani.2.722412.html

A guy involved in 9/11 (allegedly, but let's assume for argument's sake that they're right).
The main event that comes to mind when people think of terrorism. THis is the kind of person who should be in jail, but they went ahead and tortured him anyway. Now the confession is inadmissable, and charges are dropped.
This doesn't help to dispel the notion that this is about revenge.

EDIT - Fits in the same vein as stories like this - http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=178&a=6573
Pat Tillman, Jessica Jynch, etc
Bit like creationism, conclusions before facts