Should females be allowed in the millitary

[Seth8530]

Well should they be allowed in, but just not in combat areas, or not at all?

[Letum]

The daughtor of a friend of mine serves in combat with the RAF. she has been on
deployment twice and seen action as the gunner on a helicopter; the same job her
farther had in the RAF in Vietnam. (I didn't know the RAF was in 'nam either!).

Tell her se can't do her job?
I like the way my bones are all internal and my jaw connects to my face too much to do that. :huh:

[Letum]

Last time this came up for review in the UK (where there is a ban on front-line fighting for women, but not on combat):

"Mr Hoon said the key issue was not whether women could cope physically, but how their presence affected the cohesion of teams in "high intensity close combat"
"To admit women therefore, would involve a risk without any offsetting gains in terms of combat effectiveness.""

"As part of the review, field exercises were conducted with about 50 men and women soldiers.
Although mixed teams performed no differently from single-sex teams, officials said the tests did not adequately replicate the stress of actual combat."


I'm with Germany on this one. If all applicants are up to standard and there is no
effect on performance, then by all means, let everyone fight and kill. If some guys
can't "cohese" with women then that is their problem. This isn't the Scared Band ffs!

[Schroeder]

As long as they aren't forced to serve and choose it voluntarily I don't see any reason to deny them something that men are allowed to do.

[darius359au]

If they can do the job then fine ,Russians already proved that in ww2.

[Sailor Steve]

What about another poll, "should women be allowed to vote ?"
Exactly. Like most men, I have arguments against if, but the fact is that if there is even a question of "allowed", then you're society is not free, no matter how much you argue to the contrary.

[Foxtrot]

sure. Just their fellow male soldiers should respect them, and not try to rape them.

[AJ!]

What about another poll, "should women be allowed to vote ?"

:rotfl:

After ending up through the windscreen of a womans car i feel a poll "should women be allowed to drive" to be a good suggestion

[Letum]

What about another poll, "should women be allowed to vote ?"
:rotfl:

After ending up through the windscreen of a womans car i feel a poll "should women be allowed to drive" to be a good suggestion
They have lower inurance for a good reason you know. ;)

[Happy Times]

Im my experience over 90% women cant cut it in the infantry, other combat roles are possible.

[August]

Im my experience over 90% women cant cut it in the infantry, other combat roles are possible.

I agree that Infantry would be the toughest for women to handle. Carrying a 100lb rucksack, or a 200lb casualty, for any distance is beyond most womens capabilities. Beyond a fair amount of mens as well.

However if a women can handle that, all other considerations, affecting morale, being raped if captured, etc aren't valid reasons to prevent them from serving.

My only concern is that physical standards always end up getting lowered because somebody doesn't like the higher washout rate of females who can't hack it.

[Letum]

Im my experience over 90% women cant cut it in the infantry, other combat roles are possible.

Im my experiance that about matches the ammount of men who can't cut it.

But even if 99.9% of women could not "cut it", that should not stop the 0.01% from getting in.

[Happy Times]

Im my experience over 90% women cant cut it in the infantry, other combat roles are possible.

I agree that Infantry would be the toughest for women to handle. Carrying a 100lb rucksack, or a 200lb casualty, for any distance is beyond most womens capabilities. Beyond a fair amount of mens as well.

However if a women can handle that, all other considerations, affecting morale, being raped if captured, etc aren't valid reasons to prevent them from serving.

My only concern is that physical standards always end up getting lowered because somebody doesn't like the higher washout rate of females who can't hack it.

Thats why we have lowered physical tests in most jobs. They are the same with fighter pilots and SF, i know of one female pilot, and i know that no one has passed SF tests. We had a unofficial ban in the recon unit, we were told that women will not be taken when we were giving our points after basic training. Remember the Israeli study that men could risk their unit and mission if women are on the battlefied?

[TheSatyr]

It worked for the Soviets,it worked for Israel,it even worked for some "special" units the Japanese used in Burma...an entire brigade of Female Indians who wanted to fight the British...from what I understand they were absolutely nuts in combat...total fanatics...sheesh.

[Letum]

My only concern is that physical standards always end up getting lowered because somebody doesn't like the higher washout rate of females who can't hack it.
If anything women should raise standards.
Allowing women will raise applications and give the selection people a wider choice to
cream off the best.

[Sulikate]

As long as they aren't forced to serve and choose it voluntarily I don't see any reason to deny them something that men are allowed to do.
I second that.

[Randomizer]

As long as we pretend to live in an inclusive, democratic society how can one reasonably exclude fully 50% (slightly greater than 50% in most regions) of the population from the responsibility of actively defending it?
Good Hunting

[Letum]

As long as we pretend to live in an inclusive, democratic society how can one reasonably exclude fully 50% (slightly greater than 50% in most regions) of the population from the responsibility of actively defending it?
Good Hunting

I disagree. I think that if there was a good argument for excludeing women, than they should be excluded at the cost of fairness and equality, but there isn't.

[August]

If anything women should raise standards.
Allowing women will raise applications and give the selection people a wider choice to
cream off the best.

I don't follow your reasoning Letum.

What happens in real life is around 20% of male and 80% of female applicants are not physically able to handle the physical rigors of Infantry combat training (and therefore the RL combat situations the training is designed to test suitability for). This disparity leads to accusations of sexism, which forces the Army to lower the training standards so that more women can pass. The overall effect is a less able infantry force with higher casualty rates.

[Letum]

If anything women should raise standards.
Allowing women will raise applications and give the selection people a wider choice to
cream off the best.
I don't follow your reasoning Letum.

What happens in real life is around 20% of male and 80% of female applicants are not physically able to handle the physical rigors of Infantry combat training (and therefore the RL combat situations the training is designed to test suitability for). This disparity leads to accusations of sexism, which forces the Army to lower the training standards so that more women can pass. The overall effect is a less able infantry force with higher casualty rates.

I follow what you are saying and agree that it is essential that this is prevented.

I shall try to explain my point with a example:

Say the army needed 100 soldiers to fight.

In scenario A only men are allowed to fight.
200 men volunteer and that means that the top 50% are selected. (50% of 200 is
100)

In scenario B both sexes are allowed to fight.
200 men volunteer and 50 women volunteer. This means that the top 40% are
selected. (40% of 250 is 100)

Assuming that at least 1 woman makes the grade in scenario B, the standard of the
100 soldiers will be higher than that resulting from scenario A because a higher
percentile (60%-100% as opposed to 50%-100%) has been creamed off.

The numbers used here are for example only.

[Platapus]

The real question should be "should women continue to serve in combat".

In case anyone has not been keeping up with current events women are in combat and doing an honourable job too. :up:

[August]

Letum, Mikhayl:

I fully agree it should work like that, unfortunately its been my experience that it doesn't. Politics will raise its ugly head like it always does.

[Skybird]

Allow anybody to the military who voluntarily choses to join - and can handle the duties and challenges - physically, mentally and emotionally, and if it can be managed by organisation procedures. Where, for example, muscle strength and physical stamina is demanded, females have to pass the standard set by the males. Where communication or social competence is demanded, males have to pass the standard set by females. You get the idea. Take the best of both sexes and let that be the standard by which men and women can qualify or fail for service.

I see no reason, if she can bear the challenges physically and mentally, why a woman should not become active combat soldier in a special unit, or drive a fighter plane in hot action. and a female as division general - why not, if she is competent by the same standards that are used to estimate her male colleagues. And I have troubles to imagine how it could be a good idea to have mixed crews in isolated, crowded environements like submarines.

My grandpa told me one of the most feared threats at the Eastern front were - Russian units formed of exclusively female snipers. they had a much higher score than male sniper units, and acted more agressive. So don't even try to tell me a woman cannot fight in battle - I take that as total nonsens. she either has the stamina to endure battle and war, or not. If she has it, I have no problem with the idea of women belonging to combat troops.

the Israelis, btw, report that females allowed in units have a balancing, positive overall influence on moral and discipline, and help to raise overall efficiency, and reduce social tensions. I once read a long briefing on it, three or four years ago.

[Ducimus]

In my experience there are VERY FEW things that i haven't seen a woman do, as well as any man can.

Part of my enlistment, i spent in a unit that is the USAF's version of the Navy SeaBee's. During this time, ive seen women lay block, work concrete, frame walls, do foundation work, operate tractors and other assorted heavy equipment, wield, etc, JUST AS WELL AS ANY MAN. Its worth noting that one of my supervisors, according to her, was.. i think she said, the 5th or 8th women ever allowed into this type of unit. Up until that point, it was male only because units of this type operate, and i quote "in remote hostile locations with limited resupply of consumables".

If there was any work that ive done that would show women incapable it would have been masonry and concrete. Ive seen women work concrete pours ALL DAMN DAY, and let me tell you, pouring enough crete to see around 100 transit trucks pass thorugh your jobsite in a single day, every day, is nothing to sneeze at. Every try raking 3 to 4" slump concerte in front of a screed board all day? It hurts, and it burns every muscle in your body. Ive seen women do that all day just as well as any man. My boss, she loved laying cinderblock walls.

Seeing all that, i will very rarely, if ever, buy the excuse of, "I can't do that, its too hard, I'm just a girl", or "She's just a girl, thats too hard for her." Bullschitt, i know better.

Having said that, acutal infantry duty, im not sure about, which is why im not voting in the poll. I have no doubt that a women could perform well as an infantryman. My concern is more over fratrinization, and what should occur if she was ever captured.

[Fish]

We have a female captain on a fregate, Hr. Ms. De Ruyter (F 804)

[Dimitrius07]

Well should they be allowed in, but just not in combat areas, or not at all?

Why not ? We have girls who serve in special comando forces for example and they are good fighters, belive me i saw them in action (and no its not what you thinking damn pervets :lol: ) and you would not mess with them ;).

I have (at least i hope i have) a picture in my computer were young Israel girl hold a heavy machine gun :D

[Hakahura]

Get over people. Women are in many armed forces around the world.
They do serve at the front, they kill and get killed.
I serve alongside them and so long as they can do their job I don't care if they sit down to pee.
Fraternisation? Oh FFS we are talking about the Armed Forces, not the Boy Scouts.
Capture and rape? What on earth makes anybody think this could only happen to women?
Oh and if you had to serve a stint in the desert what would you rather see every day? Just loads of sweaty blokes, or the occasional sweaty woman?

[Happy Times]

Well should they be allowed in, but just not in combat areas, or not at all?

Why not ? We have girls who serve in special comando forces for example and they are good fighters, belive me i saw them in action (and no its not what you thinking damn pervets :lol: ) and you would not mess with them ;).



Can you tell what unit? This is the first ive heard of this.

[Dimitrius07]

Can you tell what unit? This is the first ive heard of this.

I don`t know the exact names of unit for girls, therefore i belive that its mix up with boys. However i can tall what i know, when i resived my traning (wich is something like 2 month) i was witness that groups of girls are training the same way. How to shoot, throw greenades and etc... In thise period you don`t know where the army will send you affter the traning was complited. So thats the main reason why i can`t answer to you direct ;).

Try to search in google if you have free time, i belive you can find there more about it :up:

[RickC Sniper]

Women are already there, but if you "allow" them equal status how can you exempt them if a draft were instated?

Be careful where you tread. Do you want your daughters or granddaughters to be drafted?

I do not.

[Dimitrius07]

In Israel you will be drafted anyway. The question is to were ;).

[Happy Times]

Can you tell what unit? This is the first ive heard of this.

I don`t know the exact names of unit for girls, therefore i belive that its mix up with boys. However i can tall what i know, when i resived my traning (wich is something like 2 month) i was witness that groups of girls are training the same way. How to shoot, throw greenades and etc... In thise period you don`t know where the army will send you affter the traning was complited. So thats the main reason why i can`t answer to you direct ;).

Try to search in google if you have free time, i belive you can find there more about it :up:

There is the mixed unit Caracal Battalion but you spoke of "Commando units", are you talking about Sayeret units? Im sure Yamam, Shin Beth or Aman could use women in the field somehow, but as operators, im not sure.

[Platapus]

?

Be careful where you tread. Do you want your daughters or granddaughters to be drafted?

I do not.

I don't want my son or grandson drafted. But if that duty is required, I hope they would do their duty. But in no way would I "want" this for any of my children regardless of sex.

[Ducimus]

Fraternisation? Oh FFS we are talking about the Armed Forces, not the Boy Scouts.


I dont know about the UK services, but i know in the US, fratrinzation can be a big problem in some scenarios. No, not all situations, but in some, it can be. It certaintly doesnt take much for someone to get investigated for sexual harrasement or what not. Not saying i ever was, but ive seen it happen. Its a promotion and career stopper. And much like the civilian world, the investigatve offices usualy sides with the woman. In a case of her word against his, they'll take her word for it.

[Dimitrius07]

Can you tell what unit? This is the first ive heard of this.

I don`t know the exact names of unit for girls, therefore i belive that its mix up with boys. However i can tall what i know, when i resived my traning (wich is something like 2 month) i was witness that groups of girls are training the same way. How to shoot, throw greenades and etc... In thise period you don`t know where the army will send you affter the traning was complited. So thats the main reason why i can`t answer to you direct ;).

Try to search in google if you have free time, i belive you can find there more about it :up:

There is the mixed unit Caracal Battalion but you spoke of "Commando units", are you talking about Sayeret units? Im sure Yamam, Shin Beth or Aman could use women in the field somehow, but as operators, im not sure.

I`am sorry, i just didn`t use a proper word. English is not one of my strongest sides:shifty: . But the buttom line is that girls serve in army and they are fight just like man.