Realistic sinking times, how long can they be?

[GoDeep]

I have a question about the realistic sinking times, in combination with GWX 2.1.
Twice now in my current career I have had to leave a ship still floating after hitting it with a single, last torpedo. I'm in a Type II, so I try to do the "one eel, one kill" thing, but it's not always possible and I realize that.
However, yesterday I came across a small 2000 ton merchant which I thought would be a good target for my final torpedo. The torpedo stuck just aft of the smokestack, which stopped the ship dead in the water. I watched as she got lower and lower in the water...and that was it. With her deck just above the level of the water, she just sat there. I knew that the sinking could take some time, and I also know that historically, some ships survived for more than 24 hours after being struck be a torpedo.

Because I wouldn't get the credit for the kill if I just sailed off, I waited nearby to see if she would go down. I waited there for over 8 hours, before being chased off by a task force of several destroyers. They forced me to run deep and silent. I never got the "She's going down" message, so I didn't get the credit for the kill.

This is not criticism but I am just wondering if a 2000 ton vessel could last that long after a torpedo impact in rough seas (wind speed was 6 or 7). The torpedo hit deep below the waterline, so I am imagining that flooding was pretty serious. I can understand a big ship being able to take quite a pounding, but such a little one?
I know that this sort of thing must have happened to the real kaleuns back then and it is very frustrating from having to leave your wounded prey like that. Just decided I would ask, because this is the second time in two patrols that I had to leave a ship dead in the water, without her sinking... :damn:

[coinbird]

for whatever reason those little guys are really durable i find.

[Brag]

Sometimes ships carry bouyant cargo, like cork, ping pong balls. It can take as long as 24 hours for a ship to sink.

[Tango589]

Sometimes ships carry bouyant cargo, like cork, ping pong balls.

English merchants often import American ping-pong balls to give to the simple-minded Tommy something to keep him occupied when the mighty German army decides to stop shooting at them for a while.

[Jimbuna]

The variables around sinking times when viewed in conjunction with weather conditions, structural and area of damage, mean you can break a ships back and see the immediate effect or put a hole in the hull and wait the effects of flooding amongst others.

Pretty close to what it was probably like in RL IMHO and one of the strengths of GWX http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[richardphat]

I've never tried GWX but maybe captain of that ship order his crew to close "portes blindes" (sorry it is in french and i dont know how to explain ) so water wont get in other "compartiment". Maybe because it is not heavier compared to other ship thats why it would take more time to sink than you had imagine...........
(This is just a opinion)

[GoldenRivet]

i know of a tanker off the US East coast that listed and was stationary while burning for something like 3 to 5 days before finally sinking.

i think the longest i ever waited for a ship to sink in GWX was about 24 - 30 hours

[flag4]

im reading about the very thing at this moment here

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Convoy-Merchant-Sailors-War-1939-1945/dp/1557501378/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209929602&sr=1-1

a wonderful book i posted up not long ago.

apparently sinking times depend on many factors as has been outlined above. cargo; if its fuel or ammo it maybe a matter of seconds, if its wood it may float for days and make it back to port with damaged engines, heavily listing taking on water and burning to !!
weather is another strong factor.
if its in ballast it can bob along with a hole in its side with not too much a problem.
so anything from minutes to days. some ships have been abandoned for days and crews have returned to try and save her.
one report says a crew member wanted to go back and get his winnings from a card game even though the ship was ladened with steel and russian bullion in its holds; he was prevented by his captain !!
there are many references and descriptions here in this wonderful book - especially the grim PQ17 convoy.

reading a book like this makes those 'virtual merchants' take on a whole look as i stalk and sink them.
if you want to know about life above the waves in all its conditions regarding the merchants, here it is...

[GoldenRivet]

i think a large part of the problem too is some folks are used to stock and they want to just sail around plopping torpedoes into everything and sinking all with one shot and having them sink with massive explosions and split in half nearly every time... these types download GWX to make the game "look" better without considering that GWX is not a graphics mod... its a REALISM MOD... desptie the fact that it has good graphics.

fact remains that a ship sinks based upon either the size of the hole or the number of holes you poke in it.

i think it is fairly realistic to have a ship sink within about 3 hours in game tops... sometimes longer... but an average maximum of 20 - 30 minutes in game.

[GoDeep]

i think a large part of the problem too is some folks are used to stock and they want to just sail around plopping torpedoes into everything and sinking all with one shot and having them sink with massive explosions and split in half nearly every time...

I'm not one of those folks. I don't feel that everything I hit has to go down neatly, with lots of pyrotechnical extravaganza in a matter of minutes. If I were, I wouldn't be downloading mods like GWX or even playing a U-Boat simulation. I'd probably be playing something with instant gratification like a FPS or a combat flight sim (not that they aren't complex, but the action is a lot faster).
Instead, I am playing a U-Boat simulation and I have added GWX because I want more realism. As long as I can remember, I have been fascinated by the war in the Atlantic and in particular the U-Boat as a weapon of war. There's something so sinister about a submarine lurking in the depths, stalking its victim... I find that very fascinating. :ping:

I was simply wondering if it was very realistic for a small ship to be able to survive a torpedo impact so well, because torpedos are powerful weapons and merchants weren't and aren't designed to take that kind of firepower. On the other hand, I have been reading the responses above and I think there's lots of solid reasons (except perhaps the ping-pong balls...:hmm:) offered why this might happen, despite it being frustrating. I'm sure in real life the crews on board the U-Boats were very frustrated a lot of the time, due to bad weather, poor visibility, dud torpedos, etc. So I am fine with ships not sinking even if I hit them. I'm also playing with duds because the real crews had duds. Just wondering about the realism, that's all.

Something which has occured to me, is that a small ship might actually be able to withstand a torpedo impact better, if you don't hit it in a critcal area or don't cause critical damage. Maybe the much bigger ships, because of their bulk and mass, tend to suffer more by flooding, because it adds stress to their structure, which has already been weakened by the blast, especially in rough seas. A smaller ship has less mass, so can cope with this added stress better. Does that make sense?

And of course I realize that the crew of any vessel you hit, will do their utmost to stay afloat.

Thanks everyone for their insight, appreciate it. :up:

[onelifecrisis]

Recently in GWX 2.1 I split a Passenger/Cargo in half with the deck gun and, although I got the credit immediately, neither half sank! I would have thought that even with the most buoyant cargo a ship split in half ought to sink fairly quickly. :hmm:

[GoDeep]

Recently in GWX 2.1 I split a Passenger/Cargo in half with the deck gun and, although I got the credit immediately, neither half sank! I would have thought that even with the most buoyant cargo a ship split in half ought to sink fairly quickly. :hmm:

You split a Passenger/Cargo in half with the deck gun? :o
I knew the Germans were researching some spectacular weapons, but a deck gun on a U-Boat that was actually a Type 1 Phaser...? :hmm:
That would have some interesting ramifications! :yep::lol:

[GoldenRivet]

I'm not one of those folks. I don't feel that everything I hit has to go down neatly, with lots of pyrotechnical extravaganza in a matter of minutes. If I were, I wouldn't be downloading mods like GWX or even playing a U-Boat simulation.
And i certainly didnt hope to suggest that you were:up:

But this has been the case many times in the past:nope:

[rls669]

I've given up on a few ships in GWX. I waited over a day while they were dead in the water with decks awash and they never went down.

re: splitting ships in half with the deck gun . . . the manual says GWX decreases the deck gun effectiveness by about half, but I've found it's actually a lot more effective than stock, especially the 105 which is just crazy powerful. Maybe it's just my gunnery, I've always been good at hitting below the waterline and I guess the GWX damage model rewards that. I'm routinely sinking small merchants with 5 shots or less with the 105 and Empire freighters are about the same. Like I need more incentive to use up my torps on the escorts so I can surface and run amok with the gun :p

[GoDeep]

And i certainly didnt hope to suggest that you were:up:

But this has been the case many times in the past:nope:

Sorry if I sounded a bit defensive.... ;)
I read my post back and I guess I did sound that way.

Of course games attract people from many walks of life and I assume there are some who hope to get some kind of arcade experience out of SHIII. They're going to get dissappointed real fast! But I guess that happens when you don't read the box and/or manual...
For people who actually love complex simulations, these types of games are excellent, though. Especially after the GWX team got busy :up:

[Bosje]

hmmm i thoroughly enjoy the gwxperience but i do want to know this one thing:

how come the empire freighter, crippled and listing more than 45 degrees, is able to put holes in my lovely boat?

i crippled it in a convoy run, after the escorts broke off I stalked the convoy track and found this one sitting still. i surfaced and prepared to sink her with a couple well placed rounds but instead i found myself running away fast

her gunners scored over 50% accuracy, againt perhaps 5% from my own gunners.

that kind of pissed me off because it put my boat down to 40% hull integrity. i can't imagine that being very realistic, nor historic.

other than that: great stuff

[Schwuppes]

Some RL realism questions from me... :know:


So when A U-Boat scored a hit on a single merchant... would they hang around until it sinks?
Also what about convoy attacks... when the U-Boat had to evade dive for several hours in order to escape.... how did they know if the target was actually sinking?

[Sailor Steve]

Sometimes they would hang around, and sometimes not. There are many records of even 'confirmed kills' turning up in port, and post-war the scores were changed; so nothing was always certain. With convoys they might hear the ship breaking up as it sank, but the best confirmation was the intelligence system. BdU would intercept 'SSS' distress signals, and they could read published reports of what ships didn't make it. Again, some of the details had to wait until the end of the war for final confirmation, but both sides had a pretty good idea of what the other was doing.

[GoDeep]

hmmm i thoroughly enjoy the gwxperience but i do want to know this one thing:

how come the empire freighter, crippled and listing more than 45 degrees, is able to put holes in my lovely boat?

i crippled it in a convoy run, after the escorts broke off I stalked the convoy track and found this one sitting still. i surfaced and prepared to sink her with a couple well placed rounds but instead i found myself running away fast

her gunners scored over 50% accuracy, againt perhaps 5% from my own gunners.

that kind of pissed me off because it put my boat down to 40% hull integrity. i can't imagine that being very realistic, nor historic.

other than that: great stuff

I read that from 1941 onward, many merchants were fitted with guns. So even a wounded ship could have fired at a U-Boat. I don't think that realisticly there would be a problem with that.
The GWX manual also explains that a surface vessel makes a stabler gun platform than a U-Boat. That could explain the accuracy of their fire. On the other hand, I don't know if the people who operated the guns on those merchants were highly experienced. I would think they would have had at least some basic training in how to do ship to ship shooting.
And I bet they wanted to stay alive, so all in all, I think it is realistic that they're going to fire at you. Just because the ship is crippled, doesn't mean the crew is! Probably a warning for all skippers who surface near a wounded ship. :yep:

[rls669]

I find the accuracy of merchant gunners highly suspect. These aren't Home Fleet battlewagon gunners, just guys with a crash course in gunnery who have probably never fired the weapon in combat until they encounter your U-boat -- in which case they are probably on the receiving end of naval artillery for the first time as well. Not a situation in which good performance is likely.

[Cohaagen]

Remember that guns wouldn't have been manned by merchant sailors. DEMS (Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships) had dedicated Army gunners who'd man heavy deck guns and multiple mounts, etc. Army isn't a mistake either - I know it sounds like it'd make more sense for the gunners to come from the Royal Marines, but they provided the gunhouse crews for the surface Fleet instead.

Ore ships were the worst - they were generally knackered old tubs that went down in seconds.

There was actually a sea master in the Falklands STUFT flotilla, Ian North, who'd survived a torpedo attack in the second war only to die in the water during Operation Corporate. Think it might have been the Atlantic Conveyor incident, I'll check the book again and see.

(yep, it was)

http://www.sama82.org.uk/garden/1/0/4/home.htm

[Jimbuna]

Remember that guns wouldn't have been manned by merchant sailors. DEMS (Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships) had dedicated Army gunners who'd man heavy deck guns and multiple mounts, etc. Army isn't a mistake either - I know it sounds like it'd make more sense for the gunners to come from the Royal Marines, but they provided the gunhouse crews for the surface Fleet instead.

Ore ships were the worst - they were generally knackered old tubs that went down in seconds.

There was actually a sea master in the Falklands STUFT flotilla, Ian North, who'd survived a torpedo attack in the second war only to die in the water during Operation Corporate. Think it might have been the Atlantic Conveyor incident, I'll check the book again and see.

(yep, it was)

http://www.sama82.org.uk/garden/1/0/4/home.htm

Sadly, I remember it well :nope:

He was a well respected veteran skipper....and quite a character by all accounts.