Dutch memorial getting build for German Wehrmacht hero

[Skybird]

While there are many German language reports on this, I did not find a related English link, so I must refer to this forum entry.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=130836


If this is remarkable or not depends onw hat you assume the relations between the dutch and the Germans to be. I was often told that many Dutch still have ressenbtiments against the Germans and have not forgiven them, but I must say the Dutch people I met or have talked to in my life were all missing this "feature", and in fact made friendly partners for talking. Even the "hostility" between Dutch and German football fans is - for the most - not to be taken serious: you often can see Germans and Dutch celebrating together after the match between both national teams, no matter who won.

Probably a generation issue. The younger people are, the more relaxed they seem to deal with each other.

Just the language sounds terrible :D .:-j

[Dowly]

I have to say I'm quite happy about this. And I dont see anything "controversial" in it. For too long, the Wermacht has been shadowed by what the Waffen SS has done. I actually saw a doumentary on telly the other day about Finns (or Norwegians, cant remember) who lived in the towns that were in direct contact daily with the germans. And one woman said, that the soldiers of Wermacht were very nice ppl, just ordinary men who you could just chit-chat with. But she also said that the SS were a whole different bunch, a true robots with whom an ordinary civilian of the area couldnt have a chat, they just would ignore or drive the nosy civvy out.

And the story about this hero is one good example that even if a soldier fought for Germany, he wasnt a mean grinning killing-machine who breaks the legs of an baby just for amusement.

But of course, there were those who enjoyed killing and then, the SS.

[Letum]

Jolly good.
It is important to consider the "humans-in-the-circumstances" and not just the
circumstances the humans are in.

*edit* I am very jealous of the German word "Mann". There is nothing in English to replace it well.

[CaptHawkeye]

And the story about this hero is one good example that even if a soldier fought for Germany, he wasnt a mean grinning killing-machine who breaks the legs of an baby just for amusement.



Clearly, fighting for Germany involves invading all of its neighbors and declaring martial law on everyone. :)

[Dowly]

And the story about this hero is one good example that even if a soldier fought for Germany, he wasnt a mean grinning killing-machine who breaks the legs of an baby just for amusement.


Clearly, fighting for Germany involves invading all of its neighbors and declaring martial law on everyone. :)

And refusing would very well mean an execution of you and possibly your family. Not much of a choice is there? Fight for your country that is lead by a fricking lunatic or die. Dont know how many of you have read books about Wermacht fighting in the Russian front. They didnt give a flying frick about Hitler, nor the Germany after a year or so there. They fought to survive, surrender wasnt an option, Russians were savages to them. And I cant blame them, a book I read awhile back ( I think it was the Forgotten Soldier, not sure), said how they came to an bunker, where 2 German soldiers had been killed by the Russians, the other had his face literately split in two with an axe and his gold tooth had been taken off. :nope:

[Letum]

Good book the Forgotten Soldier, but bear in mind that the author may not have stuck
100% to the truth.

Thats not a point relevent to this topic, but it's intresting.

There is even controvsy about wheather he was even in the wehrmacht.

[Dowly]

Good book the Forgotten Soldier, but bear in mind that the author may not have stuck
100% to the truth.

Thats not a point relevent to this topic, but it's intresting.

There is even controvsy about wheather he was even in the wehrmacht.
Yes, I'm aware of that. But even if it wouldnt be true, the pictures and the documentaries from the eastern front backs what he said. Not a fun place to be. :nope: As for the brutality of some Russian soldiers, we've had few occasions of veterans telling about some quite sick things they've seen, like at one time they found a finnish woman tied up to a tree with her breasts split in two. :-? War is hell, for every side.

And as for the book, it has to be one of the beast books I've read. The end especially was very touching.

[Skybird]

Contains a picture of the model for the sculpture.

http://www.welt.de/politik/article1959600/Niederlande_wollen_deutschen_Soldaten_ehren.html

It's the intention that counts, I assume. :)

[Dowly]

Seems like it's the initiative of a few individuals honouring another individual, in a 20000 people city, it's not like if it were a national thing. If the people there are fine with it, why not ?
By the way, never read "Forgotten Soldier" but I've read a book by a french waffen SS who was among the last defenders of Berlin. Strange read but there's some details that put some light on the fact that history is written by the winners.

You really should read The Forgotten Soldier, written by an half-german, half-french (cant remember the term for that), serving in the GrossDeutchland unit in the Eastern Front. Like Letum already pointed out, it has been questioned if it is real or a hoax, but from what I've searched from the internet, the hoax-sayers are pointing to small things, uniform details and such and on the opposite side there's even veterans from the GD unit backing him.

Anyways, a really gruesome and real description of the war on Eastern Front, the finnish version is ~800 pages, so really a 'brick', but I didnt get bored once. Highly recommended. :up:

And lastly, got this from Wikipedia (I know, I know):
Dutch film director Paul Verhoeven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Verhoeven) has discussed with *Mouminoux the possibility of turning The Forgotten Soldier into a film.

I like Verhoven's movies, would like to see how he does an WWII war movie. It would be gory, that's for sure. :hmm:

*Mouminoux is the real surname of the author of the book.

[Fish]

While there are many German language reports on this, I did not find a related English link, so I must refer to this forum entry.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=130836


If this is remarkable or not depends onw hat you assume the relations between the dutch and the Germans to be. I was often told that many Dutch still have ressenbtiments against the Germans and have not forgiven them, but I must say the Dutch people I met or have talked to in my life were all missing this "feature", and in fact made friendly partners for talking. Even the "hostility" between Dutch and German football fans is - for the most - not to be taken serious: you often can see Germans and Dutch celebrating together after the match between both national teams, no matter who won.

Probably a generation issue. The younger people are, the more relaxed they seem to deal with each other.

Just the language sounds terrible :D .:-j

The German language, aye.:cool:

A poll today told us even people above 65 have no longer resentment to our neighbours.
But uhhh, die manshaft is scheisse.:rock:

[Dowly]

The other book I talked about doesn't seem to have been translated in any language, I had a hard time finding it 3 years ago :-?
Aye, that's a sad thing. I have a great book about an Luftwaffe ace named Günther Lützow (108 confirmed kills IIRC), who was in a big part on designing the new tactics for Luftwaffe during the Spanish Civil War (He flew in the Legion Kondor). But AFAIK, it is only available in Finnish, Sweden and German.

Sad, as pretty much every historian give full credit of the new tactics to Werner Mölders, nor does he usually get anykind of mention in the mutiny against Goering, it was Lützow who had the balls to speak out to Goering and so was "exiled" to (IIRC) Sicily to command the LW units there. And not to forget that he saved one officers life when Goering ordered the officer to be executed, as he had brought an camera crew with him to one of the channel front airfields and he wanted to see the squadron to take off and intercept the bombers they were warned of, the officer refused to give the order because the clouds were very low and the winds were rather strong. Lützow got a call from that particular airfield and immediatly drove there and gathered official weather reports on the way to show as proof to Goering that the conditions werent suitable to scramble the fighters. And all in all, he was very liked by the ones who served under him. He usually spend his time not in the comfy commander's building, but out in the fields with the crew. Great pilot and a great person, sadly he is a MIA to this day after taking off on his Me262 to intercept B26's late in the war. Chilling, that the book has a picture taken of Lützow walking with Galland towards their Me262's just before Lützow left to his last mission.

[Happy Times]

I have to say I'm quite happy about this. And I dont see anything "controversial" in it. For too long, the Wermacht has been shadowed by what the Waffen SS has done. I actually saw a doumentary on telly the other day about Finns (or Norwegians, cant remember) who lived in the towns that were in direct contact daily with the germans. And one woman said, that the soldiers of Wermacht were very nice ppl, just ordinary men who you could just chit-chat with. But she also said that the SS were a whole different bunch, a true robots with whom an ordinary civilian of the area couldnt have a chat, they just would ignore or drive the nosy civvy out.

And the story about this hero is one good example that even if a soldier fought for Germany, he wasnt a mean grinning killing-machine who breaks the legs of an baby just for amusement.

But of course, there were those who enjoyed killing and then, the SS.

Havre to say that it is proven that Waffen-SS had many units that didnt commit a single war crime.
The Waffen-SS ideological side is often over blown and the military side forgotten.
Many things in armies today are influenced or copied from them.

[Dowly]

I have to say I'm quite happy about this. And I dont see anything "controversial" in it. For too long, the Wermacht has been shadowed by what the Waffen SS has done. I actually saw a doumentary on telly the other day about Finns (or Norwegians, cant remember) who lived in the towns that were in direct contact daily with the germans. And one woman said, that the soldiers of Wermacht were very nice ppl, just ordinary men who you could just chit-chat with. But she also said that the SS were a whole different bunch, a true robots with whom an ordinary civilian of the area couldnt have a chat, they just would ignore or drive the nosy civvy out.

And the story about this hero is one good example that even if a soldier fought for Germany, he wasnt a mean grinning killing-machine who breaks the legs of an baby just for amusement.

But of course, there were those who enjoyed killing and then, the SS.
Havre to say that it is proven that Waffen-SS had many units that didnt commit a single war crime.
The Waffen-SS ideological side is often over blown and the military side forgotten.
Many things in armies today are influenced or copied from them.

Right you are, I could have said it better. But compared to Wermacht, I'd bet that the SS was the one doing more atrocities.

[Happy Times]

I have to say I'm quite happy about this. And I dont see anything "controversial" in it. For too long, the Wermacht has been shadowed by what the Waffen SS has done. I actually saw a doumentary on telly the other day about Finns (or Norwegians, cant remember) who lived in the towns that were in direct contact daily with the germans. And one woman said, that the soldiers of Wermacht were very nice ppl, just ordinary men who you could just chit-chat with. But she also said that the SS were a whole different bunch, a true robots with whom an ordinary civilian of the area couldnt have a chat, they just would ignore or drive the nosy civvy out.

And the story about this hero is one good example that even if a soldier fought for Germany, he wasnt a mean grinning killing-machine who breaks the legs of an baby just for amusement.

But of course, there were those who enjoyed killing and then, the SS.
Havre to say that it is proven that Waffen-SS had many units that didnt commit a single war crime.
The Waffen-SS ideological side is often over blown and the military side forgotten.
Many things in armies today are influenced or copied from them.

Right you are, I could have said it better. But compared to Wermacht, I'd bet that the SS was the one doing more atrocities.

Im not sure, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht#Vinkt_massacre

The thing with war crimes is that they are done mostly by troops that are in the rear, occupying and possibly fighting against insurgents. Frontline and elite troops seem to commit them more rarely. Maybe they feel they are above that kind of stuff or they dont have the time.

[jumpy]

'The Forgotten Soldier' is a great read, and if not a verbatim factual account (as claimed by some) it certainly has enough of the feel for life on the eastern front to have my esteem for anyone who suffered it.
Another good one is 'Sniper on the Eastern Front' pretty brutal stuff, but a good read none the less.

On another note, there was a history channel program on about the Waffen SS no so long back; one of the men they interviewed was speaking about a russian attack on their trenches: he said 'this russian, a huge fellow attacked me with his bayonet, down in the trench... and, ...I don't like to speak about what I did then. Well, I bit him, with my teeth, in the throat ...like an animal, I killed him.' or words to that effect. He goes on to talk about the overwhelming will to live and the things you become capable of in those conditions. Most of the veterans are all visibly scarred emotionally, which becomes so clear when they are recounting their experiences; the look in their eyes, as they relive events of 60 years ago like it was just yesterday, is a painful thing to behold.

TBH I think there's always going to be a little bit of 'storytelling' involved with books of these kinds; after all they are not textbooks - look to our modern counterparts 'Bravo 20' (andy mcnab) and 'The One That Got Away' (chris ryan) they might be based to a greater or lesser extent on reality, but remember that a factual account of such things would most likely be rejected out of hand by a publisher for being too dull, so we have embellishment for the benefit of the reader and sales.
Perhaps our own resident novelist could shed some light on the business of negotiating a manuscript with publishers?

[Dowly]

I have to say I'm quite happy about this. And I dont see anything "controversial" in it. For too long, the Wermacht has been shadowed by what the Waffen SS has done. I actually saw a doumentary on telly the other day about Finns (or Norwegians, cant remember) who lived in the towns that were in direct contact daily with the germans. And one woman said, that the soldiers of Wermacht were very nice ppl, just ordinary men who you could just chit-chat with. But she also said that the SS were a whole different bunch, a true robots with whom an ordinary civilian of the area couldnt have a chat, they just would ignore or drive the nosy civvy out.

And the story about this hero is one good example that even if a soldier fought for Germany, he wasnt a mean grinning killing-machine who breaks the legs of an baby just for amusement.

But of course, there were those who enjoyed killing and then, the SS.
Havre to say that it is proven that Waffen-SS had many units that didnt commit a single war crime.
The Waffen-SS ideological side is often over blown and the military side forgotten.
Many things in armies today are influenced or copied from them.
Right you are, I could have said it better. But compared to Wermacht, I'd bet that the SS was the one doing more atrocities.
Im not sure, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht#Vinkt_massacre

The thing with war crimes is that they are done mostly by troops that are in the rear, occupying and possibly fighting against insurgents. Frontline and elite troops seem to commit them more rarely. Maybe they feel they are above that kind of stuff or they dont have the time.

Mate, I'm aware that Wermacht were part of atrocities, I'm not denying that. But, taking in account that Wermacht was the Jäger of the finnish army of today, the backbone of the infantry. The SS were the elite, nazi ideogonially-trained soldiers, good what they did, fighting for the gatherland, but most of they were so into it that they didnt think the other races to be humans and had no problem killing them. One could say some (not all!) were senseless killers in the name of the Fatherland.

Come on HT, you know what I mean. ;)

[Aur0ra145]

Alright everyone here's a brief, very brief insight into the Wermacht and SS during WWII.

First off, not everyone in the Wermacht was a Nazi, and not every Nazi was in the Wermacht. Same goes for the SS. Also, not everyone in the SS was a German or Austrian.

There were two main divisions in the SS: The Allgemeine SS and the Waffen SS.

The Allgemeine SS was also known as the General SS generally didn't have any contact with KZ (concentration camp) and VL's (extermination camp.) They generally served in other branches of the military to fulfill tasks a normal, lesser trained soldier could do.

The Waffen SS were the dangerous guys. They not only were the most effective fighting force of the German military in WWII, they also had a hand in extermination of Jews in Poland.

There are several noteworthy units in the Waffen SS (though there were many more):

The Adolf Hitler detachment (SSLSAH), which served as personal body guards to Hitler. It's hypothesised that the SS was made b/c when Hitler met with Hindenburg back in the early 1930's (at which Hindenburg called him "The Bohemian corporal") Hitler felt grossly inferior and became suspicious of officers. Thus Hitler made his own military unit that swore all allegence to him.

The Totenkopf (SSTV) unit, which for the most part served their fair share of time running camps such as Birkenau, Sobibor, Dachau, Chelmno, Auschwitz, Triblinka, Belzec, Majdanek and many others.

The Reserve (SSVT), which was mainly made of up draftees and conscriptions that would replace frontline troops that were killed or wounded in battle. In fact, if a man was found to try and draft dodge, he was usually placed in this unit b/c they were the first to fight, and had a very high casualty rate.

The Wiking unit, which was completely made of of foreigners. Which also went against all Nazi doctrine allowing Slavic men into their military, but not only their military; the branch which was held in the highest estee. Though, there was a catch which was this; the Wiking units were not allowed to wear the "SS" on their shirt colors, nor the deathshead.

Order Police and Einstatzgruppen:

These were the fellows that swept through the Soviet Union behind Operation Barbarossa and murdered Jews, Gypsies and undesirables on a massive scale.

Sources will say these fellows were part of the SS, but neither were required to swear allegiance to Hitler, nor had any of the special privileges the SS were accustomed to. None of the troops in either group held SS rank and for the most part, neither group was combat trained. These are the poor guys that fell victim to circumstance, many of them had been police officers before the war and when the war broke out, they were told they were to go secure the recently conquered area and act as a police force; little was mentioned about their other task, issuing a bullet to the neck of every Jew, Gypsie and undesireable they came across.

Alright before people start calling me a NSDAP member; I just finished a college course of "Nazi Era History: 1919-1945" and my exam was yesterday, so all this stuff is fresh in my head. If ya'll have any questions, ask and I'll answer them the best I can.

I'm also open to intelligent discussion about the SS and any Nazi doings, or if you just want clarification on an event, I can point you in the right direction of where to go.

If any of this sounds interesting to you, I have a few books for you to read.

The Nazi Seizure of Power by William Sheridan Allen, which is an account of how the Nazi party began and operated from 1922-1945 in a small German town. It's a very good read, and gives you an idea of just how the Nazis were so sucessful in winning hearts and minds.

Ordinary Men by Christopher R. Browning, this book follows an Order Police unit which was working as an Einstatzgruppen in eastern europe and depicts the perils and tribulations of being given the task of extermination.

Auschwitz: A Doctors Eyewitness Account by Dr. Miklos Nyiszli, Dr. Nyiszli was a Sonderkommando in Auschwitz which was given the task of assisting Dr. Mengele in research regarding twins, diseases and trying to prove that there was a degeneration between the races. This book was written in 1946 following Dr. Nyiszli's liberation from Nazi captivity.

Hitler's Second Book by Adolf Hitler, this was an unfinished work of Hitler's which was to be his sequal to Mein Kampf. It depicts Hitler's views on the war of race and space.

[Dowly]

That's nice, but you're missing a whole part of the waffen SS by saying that the wiking was the "foreign unit". Wiking was ONE foreign division of the waffen ss, but there were many other, such as Nordland, Charlemagne, a Belgian division too (can't remember the name), also Estonian, among others, plus other smaller combattant units from various countries.

I think V(W)iking was the whole of scandinavia. Not sure tho. :hmm:

[Aur0ra145]

Wiking was one of many, you are correct. I was just trying to prove the point the Nazis were hypocrits when implementing any sort of racial doctrine. The reason I cited the Wiking as one of these international units is b/c it's the one I know the most about.

Maybe my writing was a bit off if I gave the impression that the Wiking unit was the only foreign unit within the Waffen SS.

[NEON DEON]

I was watching BBC America the other night and this comercial came on for one of the BBC comedy shows.

Two British Actors dressed in SS uniforms. One turns to the other and asks:

I say do you think we are the baddies, after all we do have these skulls on or our caps.;)

[Dan D]

While there are many German language reports on this, I did not find a related English link, so I must refer to this forum entry.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=130836


If this is remarkable or not depends onw hat you assume the relations between the dutch and the Germans to be. I was often told that many Dutch still have ressenbtiments against the Germans and have not forgiven them, but I must say the Dutch people I met or have talked to in my life were all missing this "feature", and in fact made friendly partners for talking. Even the "hostility" between Dutch and German football fans is - for the most - not to be taken serious: you often can see Germans and Dutch celebrating together after the match between both national teams, no matter who won.

Probably a generation issue. The younger people are, the more relaxed they seem to deal with each other.

Just the language sounds terrible :D .:-j

The German language, aye.:cool:

A poll today told us even people above 65 have no longer resentment to our neighbours.
But uhhh, die manshaft is scheisse.:rock:

@Fish
We would have given the bikes back, that we once have stolen.
But we can't find the keys (for the bike lock).
Sorry.

[bradclark1]

die manshaft is scheisse.:rock:
Does that mean they were gay?

[antikristuseke]

That's nice, but you're missing a whole part of the waffen SS by saying that the wiking was the "foreign unit". Wiking was ONE foreign division of the waffen ss, but there were many other, such as Nordland, Charlemagne, a Belgian division too (can't remember the name), also Estonian, among others, plus other smaller combattant units from various countries.

I think V(W)iking was the whole of scandinavia. Not sure tho. :hmm:

Wiking, as far as i know was drawn from scandinavian voulenteers and from 43 onwards some estonians units fought in that formation aswell.

Wiking was one of many, you are correct. I was just trying to prove the point the Nazis were hypocrits when implementing any sort of racial doctrine. The reason I cited the Wiking as one of these international units is b/c it's the one I know the most about.

Maybe my writing was a bit off if I gave the impression that the Wiking unit was the only foreign unit within the Waffen SS.

Well the men who were withing the Wiking division were concidered aryan ennough by the nazis, so its not a good example of nazi hypocricy, though it did exist.

[Dowly]

I was watching BBC America the other night and this comercial came on for one of the BBC comedy shows.

Two British Actors dressed in SS uniforms. One turns to the other and asks:

I say do you think we are the baddies, after all we do have these skulls on or our caps.;)

I take you mean this one? :rotfl: It's from " That Mitchell and Webb Look"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsNLbK8_rBY

Aaaand here's one about Doenitz from the same guys (posted numerous times her eat SubSim):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcQpj2XUsc8

[Dowly]

die manshaft is scheisse.:rock: Does that mean they were gay?
No idea of the other words but Scheisse = sh*t. ;)

[NEON DEON]

I was watching BBC America the other night and this comercial came on for one of the BBC comedy shows.

Two British Actors dressed in SS uniforms. One turns to the other and asks:

I say do you think we are the baddies, after all we do have these skulls on or our caps.;)

I take you mean this one? :rotfl: It's from " That Mitchell and Webb Look"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsNLbK8_rBY

Aaaand here's one about Doenitz from the same guys (posted numerous times her eat SubSim):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcQpj2XUsc8


:rotfl: :up:

Yeah kinda made the words my own but thats it. Thanks for the videos they were good. :D

[Aur0ra145]

Yes, they may of "looked" aryan to some extent, but the slavic people were viewed as under-man in comparision to the aryan super-man. Read Hitlers Second Book, he talks all about it.

The Wiking group might have been a bad choice, but I don't like to bring up subjects I haven't studied. The mere fact that the Waffen SS conscripted people out side of Germany to fight in their elite forces is quite a large plight. After all, "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer."

As far as Nazis go, they never had any of their own ideas. Everything from their salute to their symbol was stolen. Even the idea of anti-semitism.

[Aur0ra145]

As an aside and double post:

I'd like to thank the Subsim community for having an intelligent debate and/or audience. It's too often that the internet becomes clouded with flaming and biggotry.

Thank all of you for being able to discuss matters in a mature tone.

-Aur0ra145

[Happy Times]

die manshaft is scheisse.:rock: Does that mean they were gay?
No idea of the other words but Scheisse = sh*t. ;)

Die manshaft(Germanys national football team) is sh#t.;)

[Aur0ra145]

die manshaft is scheisse.:rock: Does that mean they were gay?
No idea of the other words but Scheisse = sh*t. ;)

Die manshaft(Germanys national football team) is sh#t.;)

Guess that's a soccer thing. Ya'll soccer fans are crazy, in a good way.

[Happy Times]

While there are many German language reports on this, I did not find a related English link, so I must refer to this forum entry.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=130836


If this is remarkable or not depends onw hat you assume the relations between the dutch and the Germans to be. I was often told that many Dutch still have ressenbtiments against the Germans and have not forgiven them, but I must say the Dutch people I met or have talked to in my life were all missing this "feature", and in fact made friendly partners for talking. Even the "hostility" between Dutch and German football fans is - for the most - not to be taken serious: you often can see Germans and Dutch celebrating together after the match between both national teams, no matter who won.

Probably a generation issue. The younger people are, the more relaxed they seem to deal with each other.

Just the language sounds terrible :D .:-j

The German language, aye.:cool:

A poll today told us even people above 65 have no longer resentment to our neighbours.
But uhhh, die manshaft is scheisse.:rock:

@Fish
We would have given the bikes back, that we once have stolen.
But we can't find the keys (for the bike lock).
Sorry.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[CaptHawkeye]

And refusing would very well mean an execution of you and possibly your family.
Not much of a choice is there?

Didn't stop White Rose.

Fight for your country that is lead by a fricking lunatic or die.

And who put said lunatic in power in the first place? And then mindlessly supported every decision he made until the war turned obviously grim? Even Germany admits to the mistakes it made during World War 2. So why defend what they won't even touch themselves?

Dont know how many of you have read books about Wermacht fighting in the Russian front. They didnt give a flying frick about Hitler,

Except for the part where they still invaded on his orders. If they didn't give a hell, why DID they participate in the invasion so willingly?

nor the Germany after a year or so there. They fought to survive, surrender wasnt an option, Russians were savages to them.

And none of this would have needed to happen had they not supported Hitler anyway. How ironic.

And I cant blame them, a book I read awhile back ( I think it was the Forgotten Soldier, not sure), said how they came to an bunker, where 2 German soldiers had been killed by the Russians, the other had his face literately split in two with an axe and his gold tooth had been taken off. :nope:

War is hell. Maybe next time, Germany shouldn't start it.

[Happy Times]

And refusing would very well mean an execution of you and possibly your family.
Not much of a choice is there?

Didn't stop White Rose.

Fight for your country that is lead by a fricking lunatic or die.

And who put said lunatic in power in the first place? And then mindlessly supported every decision he made until the war turned obviously grim? Even Germany admits to the mistakes it made during World War 2. So why defend what they won't even touch themselves?

Dont know how many of you have read books about Wermacht fighting in the Russian front. They didnt give a flying frick about Hitler,

Except for the part where they still invaded on his orders. If they didn't give a hell, why DID they participate in the invasion so willingly?

nor the Germany after a year or so there. They fought to survive, surrender wasnt an option, Russians were savages to them.

And none of this would have needed to happen had they not supported Hitler anyway. How ironic.

And I cant blame them, a book I read awhile back ( I think it was the Forgotten Soldier, not sure), said how they came to an bunker, where 2 German soldiers had been killed by the Russians, the other had his face literately split in two with an axe and his gold tooth had been taken off. :nope:

War is hell. Maybe next time, Germany shouldn't start it.

If we go down this road you will have to start to look in the mirror also.

[Skybird]

And refusing would very well mean an execution of you and possibly your family.
Not much of a choice is there?

Didn't stop White Rose.

Fight for your country that is lead by a fricking lunatic or die.

And who put said lunatic in power in the first place? And then mindlessly supported every decision he made until the war turned obviously grim? Even Germany admits to the mistakes it made during World War 2. So why defend what they won't even touch themselves?

Dont know how many of you have read books about Wermacht fighting in the Russian front. They didnt give a flying frick about Hitler,

Except for the part where they still invaded on his orders. If they didn't give a hell, why DID they participate in the invasion so willingly?

nor the Germany after a year or so there. They fought to survive, surrender wasnt an option, Russians were savages to them.

And none of this would have needed to happen had they not supported Hitler anyway. How ironic.

And I cant blame them, a book I read awhile back ( I think it was the Forgotten Soldier, not sure), said how they came to an bunker, where 2 German soldiers had been killed by the Russians, the other had his face literately split in two with an axe and his gold tooth had been taken off. :nope:

War is hell. Maybe next time, Germany shouldn't start it.

Please, some of the indicated generalisations are - simply unjustified.

Some germans were active, convinced Nazi supporters. Most were not - but were born in the wrong place and the wrong time - and this was true for most of the Wehrmacht soldiers. That the officer corps was living by the old Prussian ideals of loyalty, serving, being precise and efficient, and not questioning orders, did not help, of course. But it is the same ideals that you see in all Western armies today, sold to the public in pictures and slogans like service in the army today it sold in recruiting videos of the US forces. Nobody blow up, please - but if you compare the style and picture language of such videos, and propaganda art by the Nazis, you will easily see striking similarities. Many US boys today join the forces for comparable reasons why young Germans back then joined the Hitler youth or the army - and liked it. And their parents, having experienced WWI, probably were not as enthusiastic, in most cases. Also, Hitler was said to have been able to be very charming with women, and very convincing and blending with high ranking generals, whom often visited him with critical news - and left him with conviction on their face, and lightened spirit again. the man was a perfect blender, like there have been other blenders later, and before, and even today in the present. Some of the leaders today are capable of exactly the same. and as we know - they are successful.

If somebody believes hitler was only possible in Germany, then he is making a most dangerous mistake. Most western people allowed themselves to get blinded on this and that issue. Many even re-elect the leaders that blind them. In case of Hitler, the historic constellation was just especially explosive, and fertile for the ideology of darkness the Nazi had on their mind - and thought about as being an ideology of light and a vision of a bright future. Carefull guys! don't spend your trust, your loyalty and your service so easily and uncritically.

Not everybody has what it takes to sacrifice himself, like the Scholls did. Get this video
http://www.amazon.com/Sophie-Scholl-Final-Julia-Jentsch/dp/B000H5V8H2/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-0889863-7241421?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1209895805&sr=8-2
and then ask yourself wether you would have the selfdenying greatness of hers, too, if being in her place.

And to see it from young people's perspective, and why children fell for the Nazis uncritically: http://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Die-Bruecke-Folker-Bohnet/dp/B0000646UM/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0889863-7241421?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1209896609&sr=8-1

These two are amongst the best film about that era I know of. Ironically, both of them are German. but maybe that isn't any ironic at all - nobody knows all that stuff better than today's Germans' parents and grandparents.

Or take the brother of my grandfather - the reason why I take your offhanded comments a bit queer. Both of them were officers the Wehrmacht. My grandfather indicated that he was shot after having refused to participate in one of those "cleaning" operations behind the front usual special units of the SS carried out. they did not want to let it become known, he said, what was happening. Such units for the most were made up of loyal Nazi-soldiers, like were KZ-guards.

If you know so well how Hitler came to power, then you know that the opinion of the majority of the German people was not really a factor - most did not like the Nazis, but saw little strength and courage to stand up against them - and that would not be any different today, with any people in the world. Hitler had sympathizers both in Austria and in Germany, but it can be doubted that they were a majority. Most people probably just thought about how to protect their families and not getting into conflict with the secret police. - Beyond that, it must be said that initially the Nazis created jobs after a long economic crisis that left many families in despair. It was temtping to tolerate the Nazis when suddenly you have bread and butter on your table again and somebody gives you a vision for a bright future after the years of the treaty of Versaille.

[CaptHawkeye]

Please, some of the indicated generalisations are - simply unjustified.

And these ones aren't. Based on the simple fact that, gasp, Hitler and the Nazis got into power in the first place.

Some germans were active, convinced Nazi supporters. Most were not - but were born in the wrong place and the wrong time - and this was true for most of the Wehrmacht soldiers.

Who had absolutely zero qualms about invading one foriegn country after another. Even holding onto them after it was clear the Allies weren't going to take it. Sure, they weren't supporting the Nazis. They were only following their orders. :roll:

That the officer corps was living by the old Prussian ideals of loyalty, serving, being precise and efficient, and not questioning orders, did not help, of course. But it is the same ideals that you see in all Western armies today, sold to the public in pictures and slogans like service in the army today it sold in recruiting videos of the US forces.

That's because the US has become very militaristic over the past 60 years to the point where the American public has a massive persecution complex over its soldiers and immiedietly starts foaming at the mouth whenever someone decides to criticize their holy army or something. Germany was a lot like that before it decided to go on a rampage.

Nobody blow up, please - but if you compare the style and picture language of such videos, and propaganda art by the Nazis, you will easily see striking similarities.

You will. Scary huh?

Many US boys today join the forces for comparable reasons why young Germans back then joined the Hitler youth or the army - and liked it. And their parents, having experienced WWI, probably were not as enthusiastic, in most cases.

This is a red herring.

Also, Hitler was said to have been able to be very charming with women, and very convincing and blending with high ranking generals, whom often visited him with critical news - and left him with conviction on their face, and lightened spirit again.

Because he was Germany's public face. No one was leaving his office with a happy look on their face post 1940.





And to see it from young people's perspective, and why children fell for the Nazis uncritically: http://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Die-Bruecke-Folker-Bohnet/dp/B0000646UM/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0889863-7241421?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1209896609&sr=8-1

And why their parents did absolutely nothing to resist after it was apparent the Nazis were raping their children with racial nonsense.


Or take the brother of my grandfather - the reason why I take your offhanded comments a bit queer. Both of them were officers the Wehrmacht. My grandfather indicated that he was shot after having refused to participate in one of those "cleaning" operations behind the front usual special units of the SS carried out. they did not want to let it become known, he said, what was happening. Such units for the most were made up of loyal Nazi-soldiers, like were KZ-guards.

A nice anecdote. Too bad more Wehrmacht soldiers weren't like him. Otherwise the war might not have happened in the first place.

If you know so well how Hitler came to power, then you know that the opinion of the majority of the German people was not really a factor - most did not like the Nazis, but saw little strength and courage to stand up against them - and that would not be any different today, with any people in the world.

Nonsense. The Nazis started as a bar club. They only rose and won as many seats as they did because they got popular public support.

Hitler had sympathizers both in Austria and in Germany, but it can be doubted that they were a majority.

They were mostly unemployed workers aggravated by conditions brought on by the Depression.

Most people probably just thought about how to protect their families and not getting into conflict with the secret police. - Beyond that, it must be said that initially the Nazis created jobs after a long economic crisis that left many families in despair. It was temtping to tolerate the Nazis when suddenly you have bread and butter on your table again and somebody gives you a vision for a bright future after the years of the treaty of Versaille.

One of the great myths of history is that the Nazis helped Germany's infrastructure and improved its economic living standards. All of the improvements brought on by the Nazis were hollow and supported only by them inflating the Reichsmark. In other words, if it wasn't for the war, Germany would have been dead broke and bankrupt again by 1940. Too bad declaring war on the powers around it will only doom Germany into fighting a war it can't possibly win. Thus is the bane of the Depression, by trying to get out of it quickly and painlessly, Germany ended up enduring more pain and what's more, spread it to everyone around it. How lovely.

[CaptHawkeye]

If we go down this road you will have to start to look in the mirror also.

Uhhh, ok. I hear making vague statements about my moral stance refutes my argument now?

[Dowly]

Uh oh.. Neal just got up with a huge hangover, watch your words, I see him wandering around, waiting to lock something to make him feel better. :D
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/Finnish_Ferret/6xuxm9y-1.gif

[Happy Times]

If we go down this road you will have to start to look in the mirror also.

Uhhh, ok. I hear making vague statements about my moral stance refutes my argument now?

The Western allies did nothing when Hitler started to rise in power.
They did nothing when he annexed Austria and rolled in to Czechoslovakia.
and made deals with him.
They declared war only after he attacked Poland but didnt actually fight him, USA didnt even do this.
They didnt declare war on USSR when Stalin also attacked Poland.
They didnt declare war when Stalin occupied Baltic states and attacked Finland.
They allied themself with Stalin from -41, made deals and armed him, USA finally declared war to Germany after Hitler had done it first.
They let Germany and USSR beat each other to pulp in the East before joining the fight in Europe while millions of people died.
They liberated half of Europe from Nazi terror but left the other half under Bolsevik terror.

This all leads one to think that they didnt try to do what was morally right but what was in their nations interest at a given time.
From Central and Eastern European perspective too much moralisation from these countries that suffered considerably less from the war is annoying.
USA practically sit aside for almost three years, lended money, made tanks/planes, and dropped a nuke.

[Dowly]

If we go down this road you will have to start to look in the mirror also.
Uhhh, ok. I hear making vague statements about my moral stance refutes my argument now?
The Western allies did nothing when Hitler started to rise in power.
They did nothing when he annexed Austria and rolled in to Czechoslovakia.
and made deals with him.
They declared war only after he attacked Poland but didnt actually fight him, USA didnt even do this.
They didnt declare war on USSR when Stalin also attacked Poland.
They didnt declare war when Stalin occupied Baltic states and attacked Finland.
They allied themself with Stalin from -41, made deals and armed him, USA finally declared war to Germany after Hitler had done it first.
They let Germany and USSR beat each other to pulp in the East before joining the fight in Europe while millions of people died.
They liberated half of Europe from Nazi terror but left the other half under Bolsevik terror.

This all leads one to think that they didnt try to do what was morally right but what was in their nations interest at a given time.
From Central and Eastern European perspective too much moralisation from these countries that suffered considerably less from the war is annoying.
USA practically sit aside for almost three years, lended money, made tanks/planes, and dropped a nuke.

That pretty much sums it up. :yep:

[CaptHawkeye]

If we go down this road you will have to start to look in the mirror also.

Uhhh, ok. I hear making vague statements about my moral stance refutes my argument now?

The Western allies did nothing when Hitler started to rise in power.
They did nothing when he annexed Austria and rolled in to Czechoslovakia.
and made deals with him.
They declared war only after he attacked Poland but didnt actually fight him, USA didnt even do this.
They didnt declare war on USSR when Stalin also attacked Poland.
They didnt declare war when Stalin occupied Baltic states and attacked Finland.
They allied themself with Stalin from -41, made deals and armed him, USA finally declared war to Germany after Hitler had done it first.
They let Germany and USSR beat each other to pulp in the East before joining the fight in Europe while millions of people died.
They liberated half of Europe from Nazi terror but left the other half under Bolsevik terror.

Dude, if you make a list of complaints about the allies during World War 2, trust me, i'll HELP you write it. My problem isn't this, it's the blatent Axis apologism here.

This all leads one to think that they didnt try to do what was morally right but what was in their nations interest at a given time.
From Central and Eastern European perspective too much moralisation from these countries that suffered considerably less from the war is annoying.
USA practically sit aside for almost three years, lended money, made tanks/planes, and dropped a nuke.

To say the US was insignifigant during the war is totally false. They contributed more than 70% of the allies overall industrial output and didn't even use their full strength during the war. Post 1945 they were producing more than 50% of the world's GDP. I've got no love for Joe Redneck chest pounding American nationalists either, but to act like America's contribution to the war effort was minimal is just lunacy. It was the deciding factor.

[Happy Times]

If we go down this road you will have to start to look in the mirror also.

Uhhh, ok. I hear making vague statements about my moral stance refutes my argument now?

The Western allies did nothing when Hitler started to rise in power.
They did nothing when he annexed Austria and rolled in to Czechoslovakia.
and made deals with him.
They declared war only after he attacked Poland but didnt actually fight him, USA didnt even do this.
They didnt declare war on USSR when Stalin also attacked Poland.
They didnt declare war when Stalin occupied Baltic states and attacked Finland.
They allied themself with Stalin from -41, made deals and armed him, USA finally declared war to Germany after Hitler had done it first.
They let Germany and USSR beat each other to pulp in the East before joining the fight in Europe while millions of people died.
They liberated half of Europe from Nazi terror but left the other half under Bolsevik terror.

Dude, if you make a list of complaints about the allies during World War 2, trust me, i'll HELP you write it. My problem isn't this, it's the blatent Axis apologism here.

This all leads one to think that they didnt try to do what was morally right but what was in their nations interest at a given time.
From Central and Eastern European perspective too much moralisation from these countries that suffered considerably less from the war is annoying.
USA practically sit aside for almost three years, lended money, made tanks/planes, and dropped a nuke.

To say the US was insignifigant during the war is totally false. They contributed more than 70% of the allies overall industrial output and didn't even use their full strength during the war. Post 1945 they were producing more than 50% of the world's GDP. I've got no love for Joe Redneck chest pounding American nationalists either, but to act like America's contribution to the war effort was minimal is just lunacy. It was the deciding factor.

You said it.
Im not denying the economic importance, it was the deciding factor.

[Skybird]

CaptHawkeye, I bow to your fundamental knowledge and deep insight. Germany really owes you.

[NEON DEON]

CaptHawkeye, I bow to your fundamental knowledge and deep insight. Germany really owes you.

Okay have we heard from Italy and Japan yet?;)

[Fish]

die manshaft is scheisse.:rock:
Does that mean they were gay?

No, ****heads.:smug:
Only before and during the match. ;)
Have to remember we are a just very small country measured to our neighbours.

[Fish]

While there are many German language reports on this, I did not find a related English link, so I must refer to this forum entry.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=130836


If this is remarkable or not depends onw hat you assume the relations between the dutch and the Germans to be. I was often told that many Dutch still have ressenbtiments against the Germans and have not forgiven them, but I must say the Dutch people I met or have talked to in my life were all missing this "feature", and in fact made friendly partners for talking. Even the "hostility" between Dutch and German football fans is - for the most - not to be taken serious: you often can see Germans and Dutch celebrating together after the match between both national teams, no matter who won.

Probably a generation issue. The younger people are, the more relaxed they seem to deal with each other.

Just the language sounds terrible :D .:-j

The German language, aye.:cool:

A poll today told us even people above 65 have no longer resentment to our neighbours.
But uhhh, die manshaft is scheisse.:rock:

@Fish
We would have given the bikes back, that we once have stolen.
But we can't find the keys (for the bike lock).
Sorry.

Right, I want my dads bike back. :arrgh!:

[Fish]

I was watching BBC America the other night and this comercial came on for one of the BBC comedy shows.

Two British Actors dressed in SS uniforms. One turns to the other and asks:

I say do you think we are the baddies, after all we do have these skulls on or our caps.;)

I take you mean this one? :rotfl: It's from " That Mitchell and Webb Look"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsNLbK8_rBY

Aaaand here's one about Doenitz from the same guys (posted numerous times her eat SubSim):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcQpj2XUsc8


:rotfl: :up:

Yeah kinda made the words my own but thats it. Thanks for the videos they were good. :D

An other priceless comedy from the UK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZCOCUTY5k8&feature=related

[bradclark1]

This all leads one to think that they didnt try to do what was morally right but what was in their nations interest at a given time.
America didn't disregard any treaties like the Europeans did. Europe sat on it's ass and let it's neighbors be destroyed. Europe brought WW2 upon itself. Why should the U.S. get involved in Europe's f#@k ups? A country can't afford morals and must always act in it's own interests. If countries were going to act just on morals the world would be in a permanent state of world war.

USA practically sit aside for almost three years, lended money, made tanks/planes, and dropped a nuke.
And that was very good of us too. There is no way you can even cheapen it. Without it you were lost, period. Most Americans preferred not to get involved with that self made mess and some political circles wanted to aline with Germany. You can thank Hitler for declaring war on us because without it we still might not of gotten militarily involved. The president had to be thrilled to bits when Hitler did that.

[Happy Times]

This all leads one to think that they didnt try to do what was morally right but what was in their nations interest at a given time.
America didn't disregard any treaties like the Europeans did. Europe sat on it's ass and let it's neighbors be destroyed. Europe brought WW2 upon itself. Why should the U.S. get involved in Europe's f#@k ups? A country can't afford morals and must always act in it's own interests. If countries were going to act just on morals the world would be in a permanent state of world war.



USA practically sit aside for almost three years, lended money, made tanks/planes, and dropped a nuke.
And that was very good of us too. There is no way you can even cheapen it. Without it you were lost, period. Most Americans preferred not to get involved with that self made mess and some political circles wanted to aline with Germany. You can thank Hitler for declaring war on us because without it we still might not of gotten militarily involved. The president had to be thrilled to bits when Hitler did that.

I was just replying to an argument that individual Germans should have stood up against Hitler in a time when the worlds most powerful nations didnt. Also moralisation about the Holocaust is kinda empty if someone feels it was not your place to get involved. I know the Israelis see this hyppocrisy and probably have better relations with Germany than with many of the so called Allies.

[bradclark1]

I was just replying to an argument that individual Germans should have stood up against Hitler in a time when the worlds most powerful nations didnt. Also moralisation about the Holocaust is kinda empty if someone feels it was not your place to get involved. I know the Israelis see this hyppocrisy and probably have better relations with Germany than with many of the so called Allies.What worked for Hitler is that he picked Germany up out of the dirt. He had a huge propaganda machine that painted Jews as one of the main reasons for Germany's hardships.
So with continual military victory's, prosperity and intense nationalistic feelings there was no voice raised about the Jewish question. It was also personally unhealthy to protest Hitler and companies actions. The brown shirts would beat protesters to death with the polezi watching.
Lets be straight about the morality issue. Even after the war nobody wanted the Jews in their country. Even in America they went from the ship to virtual prison camps at first. That was part of the reason for the birth of Israel (in my opinion). Morality in a nation is an issue when it is to it's advantage to have it. Showing morals as a German citizen would have you ostracized from your friends and neighbors and could see you in a concentration camp. How strong would your moral outrage be?

[Happy Times]

I was just replying to an argument that individual Germans should have stood up against Hitler in a time when the worlds most powerful nations didnt. Also moralisation about the Holocaust is kinda empty if someone feels it was not your place to get involved. I know the Israelis see this hyppocrisy and probably have better relations with Germany than with many of the so called Allies.What worked for Hitler is that he picked Germany up out of the dirt. He had a huge propaganda machine that painted Jews as one of the main reasons for Germany's hardships.
So with continual military victory's, prosperity and intense nationalistic feelings there was no voice raised about the Jewish question. It was also personally unhealthy to protest Hitler and companies actions. The brown shirts would beat protesters to death with the polezi watching.
Lets be straight about the morality issue. Even after the war nobody wanted the Jews in their country. Even in America they went from the ship to virtual prison camps at first. That was part of the reason for the birth of Israel (in my opinion). Morality in a nation is an issue when it is to it's advantage to have it. Showing morals as a German citizen would have you ostracized from your friends and neighbors and could see you in a concentration camp. How strong would your moral outrage be?

Very well summed up, and people should stop beating the Germans every time with their countrys past. No country has made as much effort to learn from the past.
Its even gone to a point, that it has started to be a disability in foreign and internal politics.

[Schroeder]

people should stop beating the Germans every time with their countrys past. No country has made as much effort to learn from the past.
Thanks.:up:
But I've got to confess that some of my countrymen are about to forget what has happened or are even denying the facts.:damn: (especially in areas with a high unemployment rate...) Lets hope the economic "boom" will settle that...

[Happy Times]

people should stop beating the Germans every time with their countrys past. No country has made as much effort to learn from the past.
Thanks.:up:
But I've got to confess that some of my countrymen are about to forget what has happened or are even denying the facts.:damn: (especially in areas with a high unemployment rate...) Lets hope the economic "boom" will settle that...

In the East especially, but they lived their childhood under another dictatorship.
But you are being apologetic again, theres probably more neo Nazis in other countries.

[Skybird]

In the East especially, but they lived their childhood under another dictatorship.
But you are being apologetic again, theres probably more neo Nazis in other countries.

Hm. In a wider context, a second view on something that is somwhat linked to it:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,551423,00.html

[Happy Times]

In the East especially, but they lived their childhood under another dictatorship.
But you are being apologetic again, theres probably more neo Nazis in other countries.

Hm. In a wider context, a second view on something that is somwhat linked to it:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,551423,00.html

More on the official realations.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,541892,00.html

[Skybird]

question is if the official relations can really cover up the less enthusiastic unofficial sentiments. Politicians love to paint reality in different colours. If I would need to give an advice to Israel, it would be: don't put your trust in Germany, for our politicans are election-bitches like every other nation's too. I also would say that it seems to me more of europe would prefer Israel to just be gone over night and get closer with Isiamic nations, instead the other way around. and not few countries do not hide their hostility towards Israel and their one-sided bias at all.

[Happy Times]

question is if the official relations can really cover up the less enthusiastic unofficial sentiments. Politicians love to paint reality in different colours. If I would need to give an advice to Israel, it would be: don't put your trust in Germany, for our politicans are election-bitches like every other nation's too. I also would say that it seems to me more of europe would prefer Israel to just be gone over night and get closer with Isiamic nations, instead the other way around. and not few countries do not hide their hostility towards Israel and their one-sided bias at all.

Thats the biggest reason they have the nuke.:D