manual targeting (yes, it's hard)

[Bosje]

Good morning, excentric and expert friend and fellow Kaleuns

I am in base after Freiherr Beckman's second patrol (first feindfahrt after a shakedown) in late 1942, the idea being a new war journal detailing The Duke's adventures on a 100% realism career.

For this, I'm using GWX 2.0 and SH3 Commander with map updates ON (showing the contacts on the map without any further details.

So this requires manual targeting without weopon officer assistance.

On the feindfahrt I sank some 25.000 tons including a very lucky shot on a light cruiser at 15knots but I am not yet fully understanding it all so here are my questions:

-Is it possible to do the targeting partly through the notebook and partly though manual override input?
I manage to get the range right in calm weather through the stadimeter and the AoB is easily calculated from the chart but the speed is always wrong so I input that manually after having set up the rest. As soon as i put the speed in, it seems the torpedo stops tracking.
So i need to fire immediately after correcting the speed?

even on mirror seas with a lone merchant steaming across my bow at 1kilometer, the torpedo does not hit where I want it to.

I'm running a new career starting 1939 just to practise, as in 1942 it's terribly hard to do the calculations in between all the escorts and airplanes but I'm still having trouble.

reading all the manuals and forum topics but I'm still not grasping this
any ideas?

[joegrundman]

-Is it possible to do the targeting partly through the notebook and partly though manual override input?
I manage to get the range right in calm weather through the stadimeter and the AoB is easily calculated from the chart but the speed is always wrong so I input that manually after having set up the rest. As soon as i put the speed in, it seems the torpedo stops tracking.
So i need to fire immediately after correcting the speed?


Yes
shouldn't
no

Erm, this may seem like a strange question, but you are remembering to turn the TDC back onto auto after you make your speed correction, aren't you?

[Bosje]

oh i forgot, the point being to act a bit like Der Alte in das boot:

the fat one over there, 2 torpedoes. single shots on those 2 smaller ones

target 1, distance... 2000 meter, speed 8, aob 55 port

... set, herr kaleun!

target 2, distance... 1740 meter etc........


fire 1-4

for convoy engagements, the idea is of course to have the speed, heading, aob etc as preset values. but how the hell do I implement this?

all I learned so far is this:
if the convoy is about to cross my bow at 90degrees, i point the uzo/periscope at 000, then set the correct speed and aob manualy into the tdc, switch tdc back on auto, and then it is a simple matter or aiming the periscope at the target, get a final range check with the stadimeter, TICK the notepad for that range and fire away at a desireable gyroangle???

this is what i read but it doesnt work at all :(


edit: yeah joe I turn it back onto auto

[joegrundman]

How you want it to work is how it works, at least for me.

Point 1, all merchants in a convoy have the same speed
Point 2, all merchants have the same course

AOB, course and bearing to target is a formula, such that if one is constant, the other two are linked.

So, if so long as you don't change your submarine's own course, once you have inputted a correct AOB for the target course, then the AOB will automatically be updated for every ship in the convoy when you pass your scope view over it.

The only variable is range, and so long as you are firing reasonably straight ahead and the target is presenting a side-on view, range doesn't matter much.

My conclusion is: either you aren't using the TDC properly (which you insist you are) or you have inaccurate speed or course estimates. Most probably speed.

HOWEVER: there is 1 important aspect of using the notepad, and the TDC on auto.

Because the AOB in the TDC is relaetd to scope bearing for a fixed target course, it varies quite a lot in the TDC. But the original inuptted AOB, which is ofetn still written on the notepad, is only for 1 particular bearing. If you then sight on a new target and send range to target to the TDC you may also be sending the out of date AOB which is sending erroneous data to the TDC.

I have missed lots of torps this way - by forgetting to clean the notepad after sending aob.

A way to bypass this is to set up the TDC as soon as you know the target course and your own anticipated course at the moment of firing. The ideal arrangement is taht you lie perpendicular to the target track, in which case you zero the UZO straight ahead, go to the TDC, put the TDC on manual, set the AOB to show what the AOB should look like when it passes straight in front of you (in this case 90), then click auto on, and that's your TDC set up for the attack. you just have to make sure that you are on your anticipated firing course at the moment of firing.

This is known as fast90 targetting and wasserman wrote a much better guide for this than i just have.

Then with the notepad clean, all you need to use it for is sending range.

joe

[danlisa]

While you're learning, have the Weapon Officer Assistance active.

This way, you can enter all the targeting notepad details etc after conducting your calculations/measurements and if you're not sure about them, use the WO options to recalculate the data to see if yours match.;)

[Bosje]

ahhhh that explains a lot, Joe

yeah that seems to be the problem, the notepad is littered with crappy values and i tick the notepad when i select the tube
so thats wrong...

You're saying I do the plotting and information gathering beforehand, zero the periscope and set the TDC MANUALLY to the aob which it will be at 0 and the speed.

my own position should remain as fixed as possible and then i ONLY set identification values and range into the notepad. then, as i tick the notepad it will update for the range but the aob and speed will be those which i inputted manually (the aob automatically recalculated as the scope swings around

correct?

edit: danlise, i did that several times and they seemed to sort of match but I'm now trying to understand how the tdc actually works together with the notepad. which values are tracked and calculated automatically, which values remain fixed.

[Bosje]

running the naval academy convoy mission, i have it sorted now

my mistake was to get all the data into the notepad and then correct it manually, but of course the stupid speed setting was still there so each time i adjusted range or aob on the notepad, the speed would be back to the wrong setting

the trick is to leave the notepad blank except for the values you want to get through the periscope (notably range)

another thing i found: getting range through the stadimeter is done not by putting the centerline on the target's waterline but on the horizon. much more accurate

thanks a bunch, people!

now i'll be implementing this in my career, get ready for more questions :)

[antikristuseke]

I recomend the OLC ui mod for manual targeting. Personaly i am confident in attacking small targets like destroyers from about 3km away with the longest range successfuls shot i have pulled off being a large merchant from 7.5km away when i hit it with 3 torps from a spread of 3.

[joegrundman]

You're saying I do the plotting and information gathering beforehand, zero the periscope and set the TDC MANUALLY to the aob which it will be at 0 and the speed.

my own position should remain as fixed as possible and then i ONLY set identification values and range into the notepad. then, as i tick the notepad it will update for the range but the aob and speed will be those which i inputted manually (the aob automatically recalculated as the scope swings around


Glad to be of help :D

It seems you have got it:D . You don't need to be stationary btw, just don't change course, or rather be on the exact course and don't vary from it. I typically set it up for a 90 or 100 degree shot while i'm still approaching, having already calculated what course i need to be on for this firing position. I don't like to be rushed with setting up the TDC once i'm in the firing position. I like it just to be about patiently waiting for the moment, and thinking about other things like spread angle.

So for example, the target is travelling due north, I'm approaching on a course of 045. I decide a 110 degree track angle is fine for my firing position. That means my firing course is 070. While i'm still on my 045 course i program my tdc for a port 110 angle of bow with a being of 000. Then i just have to swing to a course of 070 at the last minute and I'm ready to fire.

the advntage of this is there's no rush to set the tdc at the last minute, or conversely i can continue to close distance at a useful intercept angle for longer rather than adopting the firing course while still quite far out. This sort of thing can make a big difference if you are trying to keep your speed down for whatevr reason

Finally as antikrist... said, there are the U-jagd tools, also incorporated into the excellent OLC GUI. these are aids to manual targetting which i developed with hitman and olc. The olcgui needs no introduction - it's stickied; if you just want the tools, you can get them from my sig :up:

joe

[Bosje]

yeah i got it, thanks a lot

i'll look into the tools later, now i'm taking it to a convoy in 1942. You'll be able to read how it goes in the soon to be posted war journal

I just annihilated the convoy in the academy with full manual targeting so I guess I am ready :arrgh!:

the fast 90 thing really works, learning something every day :know:

[bert8for3]

... I typically set it up for a 90 or 100 degree shot while i'm still approaching, having already calculated what course i need to be on for this firing position. I don't like to be rushed with setting up the TDC once i'm in the firing position. ...

I set up in advance also if at all possible (and by and large it is). I find the trickiest part of manual targeting is getting range. Not for the actual shoot, 'cause if you're pretty close to the target, say within 1000 metres, the range is less important. But for getting target course (and from that AoB) and speed. I need to refine this, because I realized recently that I've slipped into relying on WO range reports. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, mind you, just that for personal preference I'd rather not since the range reports are too accurate, and which makes plotting a 3:15 course and speed very easy. Of course, if it's a convoy, it's pretty hard anyway getting a WO range report on one of the merchants, since closest target is usually going to be an escort.

I've started using OLC's Gui, but I'm not really familiar with the tools just yet. My impression, which may be quite wrong, is that targets have to be fairly close to get a range.

[antikristuseke]

not in my experience, geting range withing 5000m is easy, any more than that and you have to use a bit of guestimation.