Found a video on how to deal with sunken ship survivors

[Flamingboat]

I know there was a thread recently where we were talking about this. This is from the pacific but I thought the way survivors from the sunk merchant were handled was interesting. *semi graphic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmyq2OJOVDw&feature=related

[GoldenRivet]

War is probably the most offensive of all human activities.

There were heroes on all sides of the conflict, just as there were atrocities committed by all sides. This is undeniable.

On thing that made the pacific war so dreadful is the particularly high level of hatred both sides had for one another and the particularly high level of desperation with which many of the battles were fought.

no words from any historian or scholar will ever justify the actions of some.

The important question is "what would you do?"

Personally, as i sit here in the safety and comfort of my own home its easy to say i would provide the survivors with what water could be spared and point them in the direction of land...i would stop short of 'rendering aide to the enemy' and i would do my best to remember that we are all human beings and that it could just as easily be me floating in that water.

on the other hand...

I cant promise the answer would be the same in the adrenaline fueled, highly emotional heat of battle.

as a civilian playing a game we have the luxury of speculation, but until you wear a uniform and put your arse on the line like some here have... you wont know.

[Flamingboat]

The important question is "what would you do?"



I might regret it later but I would probably do the same thing because that was back when America was a great nation. It was a free country worth fighting over and Pearl Harbor was fresh on everyones minds. That America doesn't exist anymore and I could never kill anyone present day so America can rob everyone blind and build a McDonalds with a Wal-Mart.

[GoldenRivet]

im going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

America is a great nation worthy of my best efforts on the battlefield.

despite the darkness she currently finds herself temporarily lost in... this is far from her darkest hour.

That said... she is currently crippled by poor leadership. The two parties in power have griped and pissed and moaned and they have forgotten who they work for...

..YOU AND ME.

there are loud noisy revolutions, and there are quiet, patient revolutions. America was founded by revolution and revolution will sustain her.

Never give up the ship mate! Stand tall with your head held high. Be proud to be an American...

Her cause your cause, her flag... your flag. :up:

[Catfish]

Hello,
hmm even when some scenes were constructed, two or three give evidence that they indeed shot at castaways - which the survivors obviously were after suviving a sinking ship, or a crashed plane. Very bad, i have heard of "Mush" Morton and others etc., but to see it ... this definitely is a war crime.
I think some films should probably not be shown in utube or publicly.
Even if it is "the Pacific" and "a lot of hate", why ? Every war starts with one nation attacking another without real warning - why this special hate towards the japanese ? Seems this propaganda machine has once more raised its ugly head.
Greetings,
Catfish

[GoldenRivet]

oh it did happen numerous times.

I have heard some veterans of that terrible war explain that some guys did it just because, others were ordered to do it because the surivors often planted live grenades on themselves with intent to detonate them once dragged aboard.

very sad either way you look at it

[Myxale]

Wow, that was distrubing!
Sure i know about the Kamikaze and stuff, but I had no idea that the Silen Service used to gun down the survivors of the Torpedoed Shipping!
:shifty:

But then again the hidden explosives make kinda sense! Not that this a justification of any kind or any side!

[Yorktown_Class]

im going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

America is a great nation worthy of my best efforts on the battlefield.

despite the darkness she currently finds herself temporarily lost in... this is far from her darkest hour.

That said... she is currently crippled by poor leadership. The two parties in power have griped and pissed and moaned and they have forgotten who they work for...

..YOU AND ME.

there are loud noisy revolutions, and there are quiet, patient revolutions. America was founded by revolution and revolution will sustain her.

Never give up the ship mate! Stand tall with your head held high. Be proud to be an American...

Her cause your cause, her flag... your flag. :up:

Cound not have said that better myself:up:

[Catfish]

Hello,
i have heard the story of hand grenades as an excuse or justification for so much situations - this is probably not the whole truth.
Gunning down wounded japanese in a hospital " ... we thought they had hand grenades under their blankets ...", survivors of destroyed ships, Kamikaze and "normal" japanese pilots, normal soldiers, officers with their Samurai codex of honour, all with hand grenades ? :shifty:

I take it that in a situation were you may be killed every second, and thus living on a high alert level and adrenaline, together with propaganda constantly dehumanizing the enemy in every sentence and spreading gruesome stories, it will make you kill "just because".

"Would you do it?" Thank god i never was in a situation to have to decide it. When the situation occurs you have no time of thoroughly deciding, and if you are young and foolish, believing propaganda, you probably just do it. But everyone has to live with what one did for the rest of his/her life, even if some may not even waste a thought at it when it's over, for the rest of their life.

This is an interesting as well as a disturbing thread, but i will not bump it again in posting here.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[GoldenRivet]

Its a tough topic. And has little or nothing to do with SH3.

I expect it will be locked quite soon.

[yamato9]

The good part of japanese soldiers haved an SAMURAI-like spirit builded in their minds, and you know what is samurais thinking about the enemy, surender and war prisoners. All japs. soldiers( including those WW2 samurais and all other...meaning on thos who did not know what a fu..k they doing there) are trained with high wildnes, fanaticsm (for the Emperor), unhumain torture of their officers(during training and service) and contempt against death. So that it is not very odd when they act very wildly to their POW´s when they did not showing no more remorse to their own people. Normaly that this way of behaveior was reflected to US soldiers and later lead to mutual heatred.

Japanese officers(normaly not all of them but good part did practice this) did not speaking with their lower ranks/soldiers becaus this was below their honor.

I read Saburo Sakai´s book "Samurai" (fantastic autobiography and i recommend you all to read this, for those who did not know Sakai is jap. WW2 air ace) and he was write in his book nice examples about those odd behavior of their officers.

NORMALY at the end, did not every jap. and amer. soldier a war criminal but 10 lunatics is enough to fu..k up entire brigades honor and respect, so you can´t blaim every japanese or american for some war crimes and you can´t put them all in same pocket like they were all cold blooded kilers.

[Sailor Steve]

Why? Why do we have serial killers and child molesters? Because some people are just wrong. Couple this with the fact that sixty years ago the screening process was nowhere near as sophisticated as it is today (is it really that good today), and some bad folks get in. Couple it with the fact that in reality the very people who are the most physically able to fight - the young - are also the most impressionable, and you have people who would "never hurt a fly" perfectly ready to do the most horrible things to each other.

No-one goes into combat without first being trained, physically and mentally, to kill; and if you don't hate your enemy you aren't going to be inclined to try to kill him. I'm sure there are a lot of other factors involved, but it's a simple fact that if you're ready to go to war, you're only a step or two away from doing exactly what you might later call "war crimes".

[Flamingboat]

My appologies if this came off as too controversial. I wasn't trying to rock anyones boat or anything. I just thought it was a good rare color WW2 video dealing with submarines. I was surprised when they shot them in the water with small arms. Then again I wasn't. This video is only viewable now that it is 2008 and the government does not control all the media anymore. You have to remember in America anyway color photos of WW2 were not allowed because color was deemed "too graphic" for sensitive Americans. This is also shocking because world war 2 films always show the "bad guys" doing bad things and not the other way around. The guy who filmed this is probably dead. He kept it though.

I'm sort of surprised you all are shocked at this. When you step off the discovery channel you see bad things like shooting the unarmed, torture, rape and looting was not done by axis forces only. It's just history. I'm not Monday night quarterbacking or anything. Like I said I just stumbled onto this looking at what I thought was a run of the mill WW2 submarine film.

[Laufen zum Ziel]

Ditto to GoldenRivet. Good clip find for history but highly disturbing for all Honorable sub skippers. I am glad I have heard more good things then bad things.

http://silent-hunter-addict.com

[Frank0001]

I just finished watching the video, that was disturbing! (although it's nice to see any footage in colour, that's rare!)
At first I thought the Americans shot the pilot who was floating in the sea, but it appears he pulled a grenade himself :huh:

[Flamingboat]

At first I thought the Americans shot the pilot who was floating in the sea, but it appears he pulled a grenade himself :huh:

Ha ha. This made me think of the hunters in southpark where they yell "OH my god it's comming right for us!" blam!

[Brag]

GoldenRivet,
I hope you are right and our present situation is only temporary and a not prelude to a bigger disaster.

[9th_cow]

Hello,
hmm even when some scenes were constructed, two or three give evidence that they indeed shot at castaways - which the survivors obviously were after suviving a sinking ship, or a crashed plane. Very bad, i have heard of "Mush" Morton and others etc., but to see it ... this definitely is a war crime.
I think some films should probably not be shown in utube or publicly.
Even if it is "the Pacific" and "a lot of hate", why ? Every war starts with one nation attacking another without real warning - why this special hate towards the japanese ? Seems this propaganda machine has once more raised its ugly head.
Greetings,
Catfish

those ppl would be well aware of 2 things, the way the japs treated prisoners and civilians ( they used chinese for bayonet practice) and the fact that there was a high chance that if you did want to save them, there would be a good chance they would blow themselves up anyways, killing your crew.

many probably were full of hate at having to live that life so far away from home, and many probably lost friends.

well at least those are my opinions.

be thankfulll we only do this in a game.

[Flamingboat]

One thing you have to remember about the military. They will give you medals for killing other men and kick you out for loving other men. :o

[GoldenRivet]

GoldenRivet,
I hope you are right and our present situation is only temporary and a not prelude to a bigger disaster.
me too.

America is starving for unification... only true, capable leadership can deliver it. She has lost her way and is dancing on the knife's edge of disaster.

but i do think (and hope) it is temporary.

of course 'temporary' in terms of the fate of a nation can mean 50 years

[Frank0001]

One thing you have to remember about the military. They will give you medals for killing other men and kick you out for loving other men. :o

Hahaha, a great way of bringing back some humour to this topic...:up:

[Jimbuna]

Very disturbing footage....further evidence of mans inhumanity to his fellow man.

Regardless of individual opinions, let us hope it spurs our present generation on to see that we never see a further repeat of global warfare.

[Madox58]

I'm not convinced by watching that video that we are seeing everything.
It's very easy to clip out parts to make it appear as the poster wants.
I know for a fact I have seen parts of that vid where the reason the
crew fired on those near the Sub was because they pulled a gun.
Haveing been in situations like that?
Pull a weapon on me?
You died!

That is a bad example of true life.
But a perfect example of editing to suit your needs.
:nope:

[GoldenRivet]

your right.

in one scene it appears as if bullets are splashing all around one guy in the water, when upon closer inspection it is clearly a rope landing near him. :roll:

a lot of edits make the clips a bit unbelievable at times... not to say it didnt happen, but not nearly as much as the vid suggests

[Jimbuna]

I'm not convinced by watching that video that we are seeing everything.
It's very easy to clip out parts to make it appear as the poster wants.
I know for a fact I have seen parts of that vid where the reason the
crew fired on those near the Sub was because they pulled a gun.
Haveing been in situations like that?
Pull a weapon on me?
You died!

That is a bad example of true life.
But a perfect example of editing to suit your needs.
:nope:

I reckon you've a valid point there.....take the guy with the Thompson machine gun as an example, why didn't the camera man pan to the right to show what the target was http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1817/thinkbigsw1yo4.gif

Sooooo.....no award for the director I'm afraid http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3990/oscar230fb7.gif

[Madox58]

Dang it!!

[Madox58]

If you dig deep enuff into any countries History there are events we can not
condone today.

Vlad Dracula is pretty much a near perfect example.

In truth?
A Hero and Saviour to his country.
But today the epitome of Evil because of one book.

So, where does the truth lie?
It use to be:
'Don't believe everything you hear!'
And:
'Seeing is believeing!'

Now those are as fake as the vid!

[Flamingboat]

That is a bad example of true life.
But a perfect example of editing to suit your needs.
:nope:

You may be right but I wouldn't go so far as to blame "clever editing" becase the subject matter is uncomfortable. I didn't think some japanese getting shot in the water was all that interesting compared to what was done to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That video is childs play compared to the A-Bombs.

Again though I just posted this because it was a cool color submarine video from WW2. I wasn't trying to be controversial. I thought everyone just knew that a lot of people get messed up in wars, right or wrong. I guess it's different to see the footage.

[Flamingboat]

let us hope it spurs our present generation on to see that we never see a further repeat of global warfare.

*cough Iraq *cough

[Jimbuna]

If you dig deep enuff into any countries History there are events we can not
condone today.

Vlad Dracula is pretty much a near perfect example.

In truth?
A Hero and Saviour to his country.
But today the epitome of Evil because of one book.

So, where does the truth lie?
It use to be:
'Don't believe everything you hear!'
And:
'Seeing is believeing!'

Now those are as fake as the vid!

The truth is out there....does anyone know the URL

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd320/pasquarade/drunkcob.gif

[GoldenRivet]

personally i dont think you were being controversial.

These atrocities happened and were committed by every side of the war. it is impossible to walk away from a war with clean hands.

though this video probably paints a picture that is a little deviated from reality.

nobody can look at this video and say that every crew did these things.

[Madox58]

I don't have any problem with you posting it.
It's actually a cool vid taken with a grain of salt.
:up:

The A-bomb topic is a totally different area.
I never agreed with the targets.
But always agreed with dropping them.
I think had we dropped a couple off-shore
we would have gotten the same results.
That's not how it was played out though.
And I think those in charge at the time were abit closer to
the problem.
Right or wrong,
It's already been done.
I wonder how many regret attacking Pearl Harbor.
Or the Hell Ships, Death Marches, and on and on.

[GoldenRivet]

we could have dropped two A-bombs and accepted surrender... or we could have waited a short while and let Stalin drop his A-bombs and accepted the near extinction of an entire race of people.

thats the way i look at it.

[Madox58]

I think if Stalin had the Bomb at the time?
There would be no Berlin.

[Flamingboat]

I didn't think the Russians got the bomb until the 1950's? Anyone know?

[Madox58]

1949

[Ducimus]

The linked video is a nice edit job. I particuarlly like this one part.

You have a clip of what was orginally a guy shooting a BAR at a mine.

But the mine was clipped out, instead a survivor being rescued put in its place..

But the acutal rescue of the survior was clipped out, and what looks like Kamikaze being shot put in its place. (although as someone noted, it was probably a rope)

End result. American sailor machine gunning surviors with a BAR.

Nice. *golf clap*

edit: And the music sucks. Seems to me this is someone with a poltical agenda wanting to make a music video for Youtube and splicing together a bunch of WW2 color footage to suit the message the author is crafting.

[Sailor Steve]

Vlad Dracula is pretty much a near perfect example.

In truth?
A Hero and Saviour to his country.
But today the epitome of Evil because of one book.
Hardly because of one book. Dracula may or may not have been evil by his own lights, or those of his time, but he was certainly one of the most brutal men who ever lived.
http://www.eskimo.com/~mwirkk/castle/vlad/vladhist.html

[LukeFF]

Again though I just posted this because it was a cool color submarine video from WW2. I wasn't trying to be controversial. I thought everyone just knew that a lot of people get messed up in wars, right or wrong. I guess it's different to see the footage.
Next time, try linking to a video that (a) isn't spliced together to suit someone's political agenda and (b) isn't overlaid with some godaweful music in the background. As Ducimus has pointed out, the REAL footage shows sailors shooting at a mine, not at prisoners floating helplessly in the sea.

If you want to see the REAL footage the linked YouTube video uses, go here: http://www.realmilitaryflix.com/public/794.cfm

(Caution: it might cause you to re-think how the Americans dealt with sunken ship survivors).

[Madox58]

Perhaps brutal by todays standards I admit.
By the standards of the times?
Brutal by needs.

History judges from the worst perspective.
We don't know everything so we speculate by our standards.

There were times the entrances to Rome were lite by burning Christians.
They were impaled also.

Little thought seems to be given to that fact.
That would make the rulers of Rome at that time even worse Brutes.
As they were not Combatants used to scare away invaders?
Why do we not fear the Dark Roman?
But we all fear Dracula?

@Ducimus and LukeFF

Thanks for comeing in and backing up the observations!!

[Dowly]

Again though I just posted this because it was a cool color submarine video from WW2. I wasn't trying to be controversial. I thought everyone just knew that a lot of people get messed up in wars, right or wrong. I guess it's different to see the footage.
Next time, try linking to a video that (a) isn't spliced together to suit someone's political agenda and (b) isn't overlaid with some godaweful music in the background. As Ducimus has pointed out, the REAL footage shows sailors shooting at a mine, not at prisoners floating helplessly in the sea.

If you want to see the REAL footage the linked YouTube video uses, go here: http://www.realmilitaryflix.com/public/794.cfm

(Caution: it might cause you to re-think how the Americans dealt with sunken ship survivors).

Now that was unnecessary. Maybe he havent seen the real footage before. :-?

[Madox58]

I'll agree with you Ferret.
I did post early on it was faked,
the poster apologized not knowing all the facts.
There is no need to slap his hands.

@LukeFF, it's ok man.
We all know it's BS of the highest order.
A mistake was made and I believe all of us have corrected it.
:yep:

[Sailor Steve]

@Privateer: I agree, lot's of folks in the past and present have been brutal beyond our comprehension. For example, the ancient Assyrians were said to be lenient with towns who surrendered without a fight, but would make a hill of the skulls of those who resisted. I just differed on the concept that all our knowledge of the big D comes from Stoker.

I also agree the film could be doctored, but I would like to see the originals. It's true all was not sweetness and light, even with the 'good guys'. I read about My Lai when it was front page news.

[Madox58]

@ Sailor Steve

You and I see alot of things alike.
If any of use were to really dig?
OMG!!!
The horrors Man has delt to Man in many names and fashions!!
:nope:
One day, We of this day and age also will be looked upon
with repulse and horror.
And so it goes.
For myself,
the saddest part is that what was good and kind
of all past History is overshadowed.
Oft forgotten or not considered.
There had to be the kind and forgiveing.
Else I doubt any of us would be here.

[Ducimus]

Modding for SH4 and the pacific submarine war, has had me scrounging the net for any.. any resources, any material, any research, etc. So i like to think ive seen all the footage there is to see. When i saw the link in the original post, i had high hopes for new material. Turns out its quite the opposite. :shifty:

As LukeFF cited, some of the footage used in that fake video came from here:
http://www.realmilitaryflix.com/public/794.cfm

Now if anyone here has a genuine interest, you may find this video, alot more interesting. Its a 44 minute history channel program on subs in the pacific:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2427972655646186523&q=silent+service&total=559&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8


As an aside:
There was only one recorded incident of "machinegunning" as we know it in the pacific. It was on USS Wahoo's third patrol (http://www.warfish.com/warpatrolfrm3.html) under the command of Dudley W Morton:
http://www.warfish.com/patrol3con.html
http://www.mackinnon.org/wahoo-3rdmission-controversy.html


Similarly theres only one recorded incident of machine gunning in the atlantic. It was the first patrol of U-852 under the command of Heinz-Wilhelm Eck. Search U-boat.net, im sure you'll find the apporpriate links.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Okay lads, topics like this one have been discussed before, and has been mentioned, this one clearly looks like it has been doctored to meet somebodies own agenda.

My advice, check out Ducimus's links above. This one will stay open ( but not for much longer ) so folks have a chance to see his post.


RDP

[Flamingboat]

[/quote]
Next time, try linking to a video that (a) isn't spliced together to suit someone's political agenda and (b) isn't overlaid with some godaweful music in the background. As Ducimus has pointed out, the REAL footage shows sailors shooting at a mine, not at prisoners floating helplessly in the sea.

(Caution: it might cause you to re-think how the Americans dealt with sunken ship survivors).[/quote]


Close your eyes and ears if you are sensitive. I'm ex infantry and I am pissed. Stop reading now if you want!

Save your flippant little lecture. I've posted numerous times in this thread that I had zero agenda posting this video. Trust me when I say if I wanted to post a video showing Americans or any troops doing bad things in war I would have posting something that would have made you puke on your keyboard and not sleep for a week. Those videos are all over the net. I'm sorry the mere hint that American sailors in WW2 might not have always acted like boy scouts has upset your delicate sensitivities snowflake.

I came accross it watching some SH4 videos and posted it here because we were talking about dealing with prisoners several days ago. It's 99% just naval action and about 1% dead Japanese. I'm starting to get pissed off at a few people acting like I attempted to stir up something political. I don't care if it's real or fake. It's obvisouly WW2 footage. Trust me when I say if it was my goal to post some **** about American military people doing bad things I would not have used this video. I would have posted about all the rapes done by Americans from France to Germany. The fire bombing of Japanese civilians. The list goes on.

One other thing. If you don't like the music mute the damn video.

[ReallyDedPoet]

And on that stellar note, thread closed.


RDP