Bush's fresh-water-policy illustrated

[Skybird]

Warning: this is just a distant shadow of the real thing, but some people already may find it worrysome. But if UK movies show it in public next month, it can be shown here, too.

And aren't you all playing war occasionally? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ7lSPA9g8s

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/amnesty-unveils-shock-waterboarding-film-813325.html

"You have a purpose-built table with straps in a pattern so that people can be strapped and unstrapped quickly. The head is strapped down in such a way so they cannot resist the water. The head is elevated so the water goes down the oesophagus. The water is poured very carefully over the nose – you keep a constant pour. You are drowning in water but you don't have the ability to hold your breath. You feel the water going in, you understand that water is filling your lungs.
(...)
Malcolm Nance, who trained hundreds of US servicemen and women to resist interrogation by putting them through "waterboarding" exercises, demanded an immediate end to the practice by all US personnel.
He said: "They seem to think it is worth throwing the honour of 220 years of American decency in war out of the window. Waterboarding is out-and-out torture, and I'm deeply ashamed President Bush has authorised its use and dragged the US's reputation into the mud." "

If America wants to regain at least some part of it'S moral credibility, it has to stop and ban full-scale torture: and nothing else waterboarding is. It is enforced drowning and stopping it at the last moment. In movies on WWII, you can soemtimes see the past interpretation of waterboarding: holding the subjects and pushing it'S head into a bathtube full of water.

What's the difference to today's more economic use of water? the answer is simple: none.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-a-presidents-shameful-legacy-793662.html

If such techniques are so useful, why did he consent to a previous bill in 2005 that outlawed their use by military, as opposed to CIA, personnel?
Moreover, Mr Bush provides no evidence to support his argument that such techniques have yielded results. In fact, all the evidence points the other way. The CIA publicly admitted last month that it water-boarded three terror suspects between 2002 and 2003 and recorded the sessions. But now those tapes have mysteriously been destroyed. If the information gleaned from these interrogations was so manifestly "critical", is it conceivable that they would have been destroyed?
The President shows no signs of understanding the damage done by giving free rein to interrogators. It is a sure-fire way to produce gross prisoner abuses of the sort we saw at Abu Ghraib in Baghdad. Mr Bush may claim until he is blue in the face that "we do not torture", but torture is exactly what his administration has facilitated with its disgracefully relaxed attitude to constraining interrogators.

[SUBMAN1]

If America wants to regain at least some part of it'S moral credibility, it has to stop and ban full-scale torture: and nothing else waterboarding is. It is enforced drowning and stopping it at the last moment. In movies on WWII, you can soemtimes see the past interpretation of waterboarding: holding the subjects and pushing it'S head into a bathtube full of water.

What's the difference to today's more economic use of water? the answer is simple: none.

Yadda yadda yadda. I bet Germany wants us to give up our nukes too. After we do that, they will say, to live in peace, you must now give up your weapons too. Then they will say, to get rid of all crime, you must have you rresidents give up their guns now.

2 Weeks after all this happens, news headlines read - Germany conquers America virtually unchallenged!

Caption would read - Germany says, "We did it for the American peoples own good".

Then if you aren't blond and blue eyed..... :|\\

-S

[antikristuseke]

Have you gone completely insane?

[caspofungin]

wow

[Konovalov]

Yadda yadda yadda. I bet Germany wants us to give up our nukes too. After we do that, they will say, to live in peace, you must now give up your weapons too. Then they will say, to get rid of all crime, you must have you rresidents give up their guns now.

2 Weeks after all this happens, news headlines read - Germany conquers America virtually unchallenged!

Caption would read - Germany says, "We did it for the American peoples own good".

Then if you aren't blond and blue eyed..... :|\\

-S
Care to offer a counter argument to Skybird's post rather than your melodramatic claptrap above?

[kurtz]

Well, so long as they only do it to the baddies:shifty:

[SUBMAN1]

Nope, just sick of hearing about all this waterboarding BS. Reporters do it to try it - so what? Gee - must be terrible then. There is no reason to be harping on it unless their is an ulterior motive, and I suspect there is.

-S

[August]

I don't believe we should be waterboarding prisoners, but to see yet another attempt by Skybird to equal that with real torture methods like tearing out fingernails, drilling through knee caps, chopping off limbs, acid showers and the like is just as disgusting.

[Tchocky]

Waterboarding is real torture.
The only reason anyone would argue otherwise is if you're caught doing it, having already said that you weren't torturing...

SUBMAN - Hilarious.

August - This isn't just Skybird's opinion. I read this in the Independent yesterday, and watched the video. I would have posted this myself if I wasn't already aware of how the thread would go. Although SUBMAN seems to have pulled a particularly nonsensical rabbit out of his hat today.

[SUBMAN1]

Waterboarding is real torture.
The only reason anyone would argue otherwise is if you're caught doing it, having already said that you weren't torturing...

SUBMAN - Hilarious.

August - This isn't just Skybird's opinion. I read this in the Independent yesterday, and watched the video. I would have posted this myself if I wasn't already aware of how the thread would go. Although SUBMAN seems to have pulled a particularly nonsensical rabbit out of his hat today.Glad I made you laugh! :D

-S

[Skybird]

Well, so long as they only do it to the baddies:shifty:

Well, that is the crossroads here. some month ago there was a poll on torture and wether it is accepted or not. there I said in principle the same like you: that I could imagine it to be used on the baddies. Well, actually, I put it much more strictly and said: in some very special, extremely tightly defined cases, if there is a public awareness for it, and a consensus of society, and any trustworthy countercontrol to monitor the use and report any abuse of it. For eventually, for some exceptionel reason, you may want such "baddies" telling what they klnow in order to save an innocent's life, but their "badnes" and the rules by which torture would be accepted being defined as tight and precsie as possible, and you do not want tax fraud falling under this definition, or bank robbery, etc. . This is my main argument against torture: it is almost impossible in today's societies and states to make sure that such strict situational contexts in which it eventually may be used - read it: eventually - are obeyed. In case of the bush adminsitration, there is no trustworthiness and credibility left, and like guantanamo imprisonment, the legal rules and civil countercontrol of proceedings are bypassed. It is beyond control, and people are left to believe and what they hope. That simply is not good enough.

You say it is okay if it only the baddies getting it. the point is you do not lknow if it really is only baddies getting it whose badness jusrtifies the means - and not suspects as well. and there have been quite a prominent number of suspects being detained in Guantanamo now - who later has been released for after two years or so if came out they got the wrong one. You do not want the wrong suspect become exposed to torture - and this is a very big problem. Thus I insist on using torture only extremely rarely, if the context is beyond any doubt, and better: don't use it at all.

I doubt that such self-restraint exists in a government as stupid and lying and criminal as the bush adminstration. I doubt there is any government in the West being that reasonable, and in control. therefore: don't touch torture at all.

the second problem I have is that the bush administration is so shamelessly and hypocritically lying about torture, legitimizing torture and by just exchanging a single label tries to tell people that they are not torturing at all. Obviously they consider the people to be braindead and completely dumb and idiotic. At the same time these lying hypocrites keep on babbling about morals and ethical values and how morally superior they are, while when mikes are switched off they all kick their claims with boots and throw the seriousness of their claims into the garbage bin. and that is not what America wants to stand for by it's once valid ideals of the past. It should hold itself in higher self-respect.

The minimizing and downplaying of drowning torture, as being practiced by some, is just this: sick, showing a deeply disturbed mind. If it really were so harmless, I wonder why subjects exposed to this torture are said to be so desparately willing to cooperate and tell everything the interrogators want to hear.

I once have been shown a film on the French resistance drowning a german during interogation. That was no acting, that was real. If you think the amnesty video is hard, you better wake up. the reality is much more brutal and grim. I also was engaged in therapeutical treatment of torture victims from the Balkan wars, only some months, but that was enough to teach me what torture does, especially if it is not used for interrogation, but for individual destruction and collective intimidation. People taking questions of torture lightly and minimizing it and dealing with it only by stupid catch-phrases and easy jokes, earn only one thing from me: fullheartly given my utmost contempt. Amnesty made this film, and what you see is play-acting only. I just wish they would show footage from a real session - to open people's eyes what they allow to be done in the name of their people. Becasue if only they knew, their is a higher chance that they would not allow these things to be continued.

[trekchu]

If America wants to regain at least some part of it'S moral credibility, it has to stop and ban full-scale torture: and nothing else waterboarding is. It is enforced drowning and stopping it at the last moment. In movies on WWII, you can soemtimes see the past interpretation of waterboarding: holding the subjects and pushing it'S head into a bathtube full of water.

What's the difference to today's more economic use of water? the answer is simple: none.

Yadda yadda yadda. I bet Germany wants us to give up our nukes too. After we do that, they will say, to live in peace, you must now give up your weapons too. Then they will say, to get rid of all crime, you must have you rresidents give up their guns now.

2 Weeks after all this happens, news headlines read - Germany conquers America virtually unchallenged!

Caption would read - Germany says, "We did it for the American peoples own good".

Then if you aren't blond and blue eyed..... :|\\

-S

I am offended, really. That is SO not funny. :nope: :down:

[Iceman]

Have ya got a head start on Hillary,Obama and McCain Skybird?...

One of them will be your next target of finger pointing and I just wonder if you already have a good amount of dirt on each of them....

let the stone tossing commence Skybird and let ole GWB off the hook now...I Love You MAN!

[SUBMAN1]

I am offended, really. That is SO not funny. :nope: :down:It wasn't meant to be funny. If you're offended, don't read it. Can't please everybody. It's the only logical conclusion I can come up with against Skybirds constant anti-US bashing that seems to be every day. What else can he be after?

-S

[Wolfehunter]

Nothing is going to change what government bodies will do to local and foreign captive in there secret prisons. It doesn't matter whos flag flies ontop of the prison. All contries in some form or way do it weither they say it openly or not.

This is what happens to citizen who don't follow state rule or spies getting caught and more.

Anyhow were all animals and we will treat each other like animal till one day we will evolve.

I don't see that day comming anytime soon.:hmm:

[mrbeast]

I am offended, really. That is SO not funny. :nope: :down:It wasn't meant to be funny. If you're offended, don't read it. Can't please everybody. It's the only logical conclusion I can come up with against Skybirds constant anti-US bashing that seems to be every day. What else can he be after?

-S

How is he going to know he will be offended by it if he doesn't read it in the first place?

[SUBMAN1]

Nothing is going to change what government bodies will do to local and foreign captive in there secret prisons. It doesn't matter whos flag flies ontop of the prison. All contries in some form or way do it weither they say it openly or not.

This is what happens to citizen who don't follow state rule or spies getting caught and more.

Anyhow were all animals and we will treat each other like animal till one day we will evolve.

I don't see that day comming anytime soon.:hmm:I don't think this thread is about that, though I do value your opinions and think they are correct. It is more about not bending to Germany's will. Anyone that doesn't bend to their will is bad in their book and given this type of treatment. Here is another example:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,548749,00.html

This German mag doesn't like this guy for the same reason they don't like the US. That is why I am tired of it. Anti US bashing is the norm from 90% of SB's posts.

-S

PS. Sorry if I offended anyone. Its in the name of ending this anti-US bashing by some members here. It is not meant to offend anyone here.

[CptSimFreak]

Torture never produced proper and accurate info ....and it never will. And people who thinks it does watched too many Hollywood videos and are gullible fools. :down:

[Platapus]

My opinion on water boarding has not changed

If it was done on US troops by our enemy would we consider it

1. Enhanced interrogation and therefore it is not a problem
2. Torture and we would raise holy stink

I believe that most people would opt for answer 2. I know I would.

Given that, if we would believe it would be torture if done to our troops, why would it be justified if done on their troops?

Gooses and ganders, pots and kettles

[bradclark1]

Torture and we would raise holy stink. And the biggest stinks will be from the herd that says it's okay to do it to others.

[Sonarman]

Its in the name of ending this anti-US bashing by some members here. It is not meant to offend anyone here.

Most of the people I know in Europe have no issue with the US as a country or her people only with the Bush administration who have systematically and cynically ill-used the troops and resources under their command to further their pursuit of power and business interests.

A Government who are the first to cut the size of the military budget when things get tough in "bean counter land" and ban their media from telling the truth about how many body bags are coming home. A Government who flout international law, lie about the reasons for going to war, torture and restrict at will. A Government who cherry-picks items from international conventions to suit their needs rather than adhering to the spirit or letter of them. A government who rewrite the constitution of their country at will, bend and twist international agreements to suit their aims & flagrantly defy international law. By their illegal and immoral actions it is they who have brought the brave men and women of the US armed forces and indeed the country as a whole into disrepeute.

One of the main reasons we went into Iraq was on humanitarian grounds "apparently" to stop the torture inflicted by the "evil" regime of Saddam and yet here we are merrily torturing prisoners in our own backyard, how far we have come, where will this madness end?

[bradclark1]

Anti US bashing is the norm from 90% of SB's posts.

-S

Actually I think it's anti-administration bashing. Thats permissible.

[Platapus]

Its in the name of ending this anti-US bashing by some members here. It is not meant to offend anyone here.

Most of the people I know in Europe have no issue with the US as a country or her people only with the Bush administration who have systematically and cynically ill-used the troops and resources under their command to further their pursuit of power and business interests.

A Government who are the first to cut the size of the military budget when things get tough in "bean counter land" and ban their media from telling the truth about how many body bags are coming home. A Government who flout international law, lie about the reasons for going to war, torture and restrict at will. A Government who cherry-picks items from international conventions to suit their needs rather than adhering to the spirit or letter of them. A government who rewrite the constitution of their country at will, bend and twist international agreements to suit their aims & flagrantly defy international law. By their illegal and immoral actions it is they who have brought the brave men and women of the US armed forces and indeed the country as a whole into disrepeute.

One of the main reasons we went into Iraq was on humanitarian grounds "apparently" to stop the torture inflicted by the "evil" regime of Saddam and yet here we are merrily torturing prisoners in our own backyard, how far we have come, where will this madness end?

I am very glad that there are people in Europe who are willing to make the difference between Americans, America, and the current administration and its policies. It gives me hope that we can repair our reputation.....in time.

[August]

Anti US bashing is the norm from 90% of SB's posts.

-S
Actually I think it's anti-administration bashing. Thats permissible.

Mostly, but i've never seen him talk of anything American in a positive light.

[Wolfehunter]

I don't think this thread is about that, though I do value your opinions and think they are correct. .Well thankyou for valuing my point.

See I don't care about what language people speaks. I don't care what colour of skin anyone has, tatooed or not. I don't care weither people are nude or are fully robed. I don't care what beer anyone drinks. Christ if I give a damb what religion people worship. I sure is don't give a rats behind what colour of briefs or boxers people wear too. What I do give a damb about is why are we still acting like savages towards each other. Are we not suppose to be evolve to our stone aged counterparts? The only thing different then and now is we have perfected in a fasters and more efficient ways in torturing and killing. Socially were still living in the stone age clubing each other to death.

People also fail to see that nation bashing is what drives hatred and keeps fears and ignorance. It doesn't matter if is just americans or Germans or chinese or russians or any nations, torture or killing isn't a solution or acceptable at any level. We will never learn from our past if we keep repeating it over and over again.:roll:

Problem is there are powerful interest groups who don't want change. Who like it just the way it is.:nope:

[Skybird]

Hm, I think I need to spend a personal word here.

I am very glad that there are people in Europe who are willing to make the difference between Americans, America, and the current administration and its policies. It gives me hope that we can repair our reputation.....in time.

I ALWAYS made that distinction, and over the past years have said that word by word, a million times. No American here must suspect that I am hostile to him just becasue he is american. I may not even be hostile to him if he has another opinion than me. I may be critical on some aspects of american culture as I perceive it and experience it over here, like I am critical on many other, even european, even German things as well, but that is one thing. Personal hostility or even hate is something totally different.

And so I am hostile towards certain ways of some people's behavior. And then it is no problem with their nationality, but with these people personally.

Beyond that, I watch nations in two ways: by what they want to be and claim to be and historically may have meant to be, and by what they actually are in the present, and what they actually are doing. This I do with Germany. With the EU. And with America as well. And in all three cases I see extremely huge differences between claim and history and contemporary reality. That explicitly includes the US, of course.

If that qualifies for a description of US-bashing, okay, so be it: I will be a proud and convinced nation-basher then. But I put my trust in the many reasonable minds here to know it better.

-----

Guys, I strongly recommend to simply ignore that constant barrage that I can conclude from your answers that Subman has established it (again). Reacting to it is useless, and does not deserve any effort. I have both Subman and August on my ignore list and do not care for them anymore. This is not because of different views or other opinions, but behavior, and unpolite if not cheating style, and playing tricks. You must not defend me against any of them, nor fight in my place with them. Keep on topic, focus on those people with whom you can talk and have an exchange of thoughts in a reasonable way, leave all the personal name-calling out and ignore those not doing so. ;) some of the most interesting conversations I had here were with people who did NOT agree with me, but with whom I nevertheless was able to talk friendly, at least polite, since we both left out personal insults. This does not mean to exclude being clear in what one says. And that kind of conversation is what it is about. Sometimes one can be carried away a bit, or miscommunication simply happens, but I found that in many cases this can be repaired if clearing it up in PMs, or in talking abouzt it in the forum, and eventuqally offer or accept an apology. I have been there, any many of you as well. I have wasted plenty of time dealing with bullying guys, but finally - finally! :lol: - understood that this is what it was indeed: a waste of time. Focus on the good people here, and we all will enjoy our time being spend. In that way and with that spirit I am convinced it is possible to even talk on controversial issues.

On the topic, I cannot see it beeing any more or less legitimate to be set up here like most of the other forum threads as well, the only difference is that it may have a more serious request than many others. So, no need for fighting, as far as I see it.

[August]

What a riot! :rotfl:

[TheSatyr]

I've heard over and over again the question of "what would you do if you had a terrorist prisoner who knew about or placed a nuke in a major city and you only had 24 hours to get the info from him".

To me,the answer is that you are screwed. If you torture him(or her) they are likely to give you a false location to end the torture. If you use standard interrogation you are not likely to get any info.

Your only choice is basic police work. Find out where he has been and who he has been with and try to track down the bomb that way...and hope you find it in time.

Torture has never been an effective means of finding out ANYTHING,or do you really believe those women killed in Salem were really witches? People will say anything under torture to get it to stop...even admitting to things they didn't do.

[August]

Torture has never been an effective means of finding out ANYTHING,or do you really believe those women killed in Salem were really witches? People will say anything under torture to get it to stop...even admitting to things they didn't do.

Ahem. Not to take away from your basic point dude but those woman (and man) as Salem were killed because they WOULD'NT admit to something they didn't do.

[Skybird]

I've heard over and over again the question of "what would you do if you had a terrorist prisoner who knew about or placed a nuke in a major city and you only had 24 hours to get the info from him".

To me,the answer is that you are screwed. If you torture him(or her) they are likely to give you a false location to end the torture. If you use standard interrogation you are not likely to get any info.

Your only choice is basic police work. Find out where he has been and who he has been with and try to track down the bomb that way...and hope you find it in time.

That is the dilemma, and torture imo is not effective if you have a time limit. but if you have time enough to test the information you get, and in case it was wrong you can come back to the informant - and he knows that you will come back - then it is a different ballgame altogether.


Torture has never been an effective means of finding out ANYTHING,or do you really believe those women killed in Salem were really witches? People will say anything under torture to get it to stop...even admitting to things they didn't do.
In the history of wars, I assume you can find plenty of example for exactly the opposite as well.

By this I do not wish to say in general "let's allow torture!" I refer to my comments earlier.

[Tchocky]

The issue of torture isn't really about the accuracy of information that is gained. It's about how a society views itself, and the values it seeks to promote.

Of course, that torture produces unreliable information is a helpful argument for its proscription.

EDIT - Looking at the accusations of anti-Americanism in this thread, I find them more than a little silly. Skybird, for instance, always makes it clear about whom he is referring: elements of government and executive, not the country as a whole.
Mostly, but i've never seen him talk of anything American in a positive light. One could say the same thing about the many threads SB starts about German politics, does that make him anti-German?
Mostly here the talk is of plane crashes, not safe arrivals.