operational question

[GoldenRivet]

As i begin my patrol toward the United States East Coast again i find myself wondering about an operational consideration for U-boats in my position.

Assume your orders are to head to the US east coast to take part in paukenschlag.

but en route you stumble across a juicy convoy... lets say middle of the pack are 3 large tankers, a few troop ships and some ammo carriers.

does attacking this convoy with full force (therby seriuously depleting your armament stores) take precedence over the standing orders to voyage to the USA? Or would you simply radio in the contact report and proceed undetected without firing a shot?

My thinking is that you would radio BdU something like "U-35 currently en route to paukenshchlag area... we have sighted massive convoy with multiple high value targets urgently request permission to engage"

or would that even be necessary... i would assume that if a u-boat skipper encountered such a target he would be expected to attack it.

next question... if the attack was successful, and only 3 or 4 torpedoes remain aboard, would the skipper be expected to continue his patrol to the USA... or would he return to base... or would he be routed to a resupply boat somewhere.

for example, turn back and dock at Max Albrecht supply ship, rearm and continue patrol or stop in and pay a visit to a milk cow.

i have never really been sure myself.

[Sailor Steve]

My philosophy is that you can never go wrong with the old teenagers' rule: It's easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission. I'd say go for it.

On the other hand, I understand that the Germans liked to micromanage a lot, so they might not think too kindly on you thinking for yourself.

On the other other hand, aren't they always telling us "Be more agressive!"?

[GoldenRivet]

well this situation is entirely hypothetical so far.

But i was curious about this because i thought i remember reading that USA bound u-boats were not to attack any targets until closing within a certain distance of the USA.

personally i think i would hit the convoy and then go rearm

[Sailor Steve]

....i thought i remember reading that USA bound u-boats were not to attack any targets until closing within a certain distance of the USA.
On the other other other hand, if that's true then maybe we should follow orders.:-?

[GoldenRivet]

well let me rephrase what i said about those orders...

there was a blind spot in the atlantic where boats were not to attack which was intended to not tip off the USA that the u-boats were on the way.

[HW3]

I believe that the u-boat would radio in the convoy and await further orders. BdU would either have them track it sending beacon signals if other boats are nearby, or attack it if none are near enough. I doubt BdU would pass up a chance to attack a convoy.

[Elmer Kosterman]

I think I remember reading in Peillard's Schlacht im Atlantik that boats in Paukenschlag were to maintain radio silence on the way over but could attack extremely favorable targets of opportunity.

[Bosje]

Assuming the boats in Drumbeat/Paukenschlag were not part of any wolfpack, I'd say BdU would want to know about the convoy but they would also want you to not reveal your intention of travelling to the US coast

since radio reports don't seem to have any effect ingame and since it's very (unrealistically) hard to send one as the war progresses -> I can't seem to be able to send a report from long range and I get detected at shorter range, it's probably best to save the torpedoes for the much easier pickings near the US coast

btw how do you people deal with radio reports? do you actually send em at all?

[Platapus]

From the U-Boat Commander's Handbook

Section II b 105 c

"Never delude yourself by assuming that it is right not to attack on the instant, or not to hold on the enemy with the utmost determination, because there may be reason to hope and believe that a better target will subsequently be found elsewhere. What you have got, you have got..."

In other words a tanker in the crosshairs is worth two in the gulf.

"Next question... if the attack was successful, and only 3 or 4 torpedoes remain aboard, would the skipper be expected to continue his patrol to the USA... or would he return to base... or would he be routed to a resupply boat somewhere."

3 or 4 torpedoes can mean 3 or 4 ships sunk. You should continue on your mission. Unless there are fuel concerns, a Kaluen that returns before reaching his assigned mission area with 3 or 4 torpedoes on board will be an ex-Kaluen scraping barnacles from old training subs.

A resupply would be nice, but even if you have no torpedoes you can still support the mission by sighting and reporting convoys and even using your deck gun if you can catch a loner.

The Submarine, sir, is an offensive weapon. Only food and fuel should limit the mission duration and contact with the enemy....and the crew can go hungry if necessary.:arrgh!:

Good hunting to you.

[GoldenRivet]

excellent references there platypus.

i assumed this was the case... as it is said "...always attack"

unfortunately i have not encountered this scenario yet. two trips to the USA and both times the passage was quiet.

my hunch on a good hunting spot was right on, bagged 3 large tankers, 2 granvilles, 1 medium tanker, and a medium cargo.

i was about 50 miles too far out to sea on the previous patrol, though still pretty happy with that one.

great hunting off norfolk between 30 and 60 miles from shore up and down the coast if you can stand the shallow waters.

returned to base for fuel concerns with 2 torpedoes remaining for just over 46,000 grt

[Brag]

In other words a tanker in the crosshairs is worth two in the gulf.


.

Very good, Platapus :D

[Jimbuna]

Great feedback here :up:

In RL, high priority targets (Tankers, Troopships, Carriers, BB's) were not to be ignored, especially if a favourable firing position could be obtained.

In game, I'd certainly welcome the opportunity and sink the higher tonnage ships.

3 to 4 torpedoes left in RL, a U-boat would usually radio to announce it's arrival at the deesignated patrol area. Most definitely in extenuating circumstances (and I'd contend being off the east coast of US with only a handful of eels left as being a prime example).

It was not uncommon for a IX returning from a mission without all it's ordnance and fuel spent to meet up with an 'incomer' and pass over a little fuel or the odd eel.

In game, I'd head for a milch cow then proceed to the original grid after replenishment.

If your playing GWX2.1 you won't get any renown for the patrol grid either way anyway.

[Frank0001]

So entering and completing 24 hours in the assigned grid will get you more renown? (in GWX 2.0)
It's not the first time that I've encountered convoys before reaching my assigned grid, I'd hit it with full force (all torpedoes depleted). After sending a patrol report, BdU tells me to 'return to base'!

[Gunnar]

I think given that the U-boats involved at the start of Operation Drumbeat operated under sealed orders not to be opened until the boat was at sea with only basic radio transmissions of position and weather allowed, it is likely that targets of opportunity were to be ignored.

I think this is a rare case of strategic orders taking precedence over all other tactical considerations with no exceptions. I think in one documentary it was pointed out that U-boats sailed without charts of the US coast in order to maintain security but of course little did they know that their routine transmissions were being decoded and sent to the American Navy. Even more amazingly, according to various sources, Admiral King, simply ignored this priceless intelligence and allowed tankers to travel along the coast as a single unit whilst making no real attempt to interdict the U-Boats.

On this basis I would argue (given the current circumstances faced by the U-Boat commander involved) that the strategic aims of Drumbeat over-ride all other considerations and that targets of opportunity should be noted and a brief transmission should be sent to the appropriate authorities for their perusal.

Given the absolute over-riding necessity to disrupt US coastal sea traffic, I would argue that the Kaleun in receipt of Drumbeat orders is to disregard all other targets in order to maximise the surprise factor and success of their coastal operations.

[Jimbuna]

So entering and completing 24 hours in the assigned grid will get you more renown? (in GWX 2.0)
It's not the first time that I've encountered convoys before reaching my assigned grid, I'd hit it with full force (all torpedoes depleted). After sending a patrol report, BdU tells me to 'return to base'!

If/when you move on to GWX2.1 there will be no renown awarded....only for those ships that you sink http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Puster Bill]

I think given that the U-boats involved at the start of Operation Drumbeat operated under sealed orders not to be opened until the boat was at sea with only basic radio transmissions of position and weather allowed, it is likely that targets of opportunity were to be ignored.

I think this is a rare case of strategic orders taking precedence over all other tactical considerations with no exceptions.

That's not ENTIRELY true; BdU sent this message to U-123 (Hardegen) while it was proceeding to the East Coast of the US for the first wave of Paukenschlag:

OFFICER. TO HARDEGEN U-123. ON 1 JANUARY EVENING IN SQUARE BC4335 GREEK SHIP DIMITRIOS INGLESSIS REQUESTED TUG ASSISTANCE OWING TO DAMAGED RUDDER. YOU MAY ATTACK IF NOT FARTHER THAN 150 MILES FROM POSITION GIVEN.



And here is the excerpt from the BdU KTB for January 1st, 1942:

4) U 123 is to make for Greek "Dimitros-Inglessis" in the event she is not more than 150 miles away. This ship requested aid from tugs on the evening of 1 January in area BU 4335, because of rudder damage.

The Dimitrios Inglessis was only 5,275 GRT.

In any event, the operational order for Paukenschlag contained this language:

You will not attack any enemy ships before that date unless Groner shows them at 10,000 GRT or unless specifically permitted or directed to do so by BdU.

Clearly, exceptions for high value targets were considered worth the risk. I would expect that if you ran into a convoy and decided to sink several tankers and large merchants, that all would be forgiven.

[FIREWALL]

I'm never going to pass up juicy targets no matter where I'm heading for.

Tonnage, Tonnage, Tonnage.

If you think about it. They were coming from the USA east coast.:p

[von hally]

yeah im with firewall

im pretty sure...from the books ive read...that after departing port...and outwith any specific patrol gids and extra orders...a u-boat captain was prett mutch expected to use his guile, initiative and determination to see his boat safely back to port.. i assume this meant targets passing through the crosshairs that are too good to give up must be attempted....tonnage is good wherever its sunk:rock:

[Frank0001]

Yes sir, a convoy should never be left in peace. After all, isn't the U-boat meant just for this purpose, to harass enemy shipping?

[Elmer Kosterman]

I think I remember reading in Peillard's Schlacht im Atlantik that boats in Paukenschlag were to maintain radio silence on the way over but could attack extremely favorable targets of opportunity.

Page 231 relates Dönitz's intstructions to the five type IX captains of Paukenschlag that they could attack any warship from cruisers on up and merchant ships greater than 10,000 tonnes, but only if they sailed "in front of your tubes."

[klh]

I agree - attack if at all possible. Also from the U-boat Commander's Handbook (paragraph 1)...


The essence of submarine warfare is the offensive! For the commander of a submarine, therefore, the maxim: "He who wants to be victorious on the sea must always attack!" has special meaning.


As for when to return to base, I stay out until I'm out of torpedoes, out of fuel, out of food (if that was modeled), or seriously damaged. It's an embarrassment to return to base with fish in the tubes. :arrgh!: