EX-Prez Carter to meet with Hamas...

[DeepIron]

This should be interesting...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/04/17/carter.hamas/index.html

Hope he takes some peanuts along...;)

But the likely meeting has rankled the Israeli and U.S. governments, which say it runs counter to their policies of not negotiating with terrorists.
Good for him. I'm for just about anything that will upset the "status quo" in this regard.

[Platapus]

nothing wrong with talking.

During the cold war when the propaganda was predicting that either the Soviets or the Chines (or both) were bent on world domination and the end of freedom, we talked to them.

That is one of the many things that frustrates me about the current administration. They seen afraid to talk to anyone but our allies.

Talking does not mean agreement
Talking does not mean surrender

Talking does lead to understanding so perhaps that's why this administration is reluctant. We already know everything and how everyone thinks and what everyone wants:nope:

One of the silliest arguments against talking is that the "bad guys" can spin a meeting with the United States for their propaganda purposes. Here's a news flash: Doing anything can be spun for propaganda... even not doing something can be spun. So we might as well talk.... unless there is another reason we don't want to talk :hmm:

[DeepIron]

That is one of the many things that frustrates me about the current administration. They seen afraid to talk to anyone but our allies.Me too. I thought it was in the Baker - Hamilton Report regarding Iraq that dialog with other "involved nations" was given high regard. Yet the Bush Administration appears to have a "deaf" ear when it comes to dialogs...

[bradclark1]

Hamas is first and foremost a terrorist organization. A president(even a past president) talking to them sets a bad precedence. It will be seen as a propaganda feather in their cap. I'm not against dialog but it should be low level. Carter is dead wrong doing this.

[Konovalov]

Hamas is first and foremost a terrorist organization. A president(even a past president) talking to them sets a bad precedence. It will be seen as a propaganda feather in their cap. I'm not against dialog but it should be low level. Carter is dead wrong doing this.
Agreed absolutely. :yep: Talking should be done at a lower level and behind the scenes. What was former US President Carter thinking? :-?

[DeepIron]

Hamas is first and foremost a terrorist organization. A president(even a past president) talking to them sets a bad precedence. It will be seen as a propaganda feather in their cap. I'm not against dialog but it should be low level. Carter is dead wrong doing this. Ok, just being the Devils Advocate...

Only the militant wings of Hamas is "officially" considered "terrorist". Yes, the Hamas govenment is described as a "group involved in terrorist attacks" but they did legitimately win a majority of seats in the legislative council of the Palestinian Authority...

How "low level" would we have to be to initiate a dialog? I doubt that if the US send a junior attache from the US Embassy to talk, that any good would come from it. Higher level "official" dialogs between Hamas, Israel, US, et al have failed to produce any significant results and I'm pretty certain there were "lower level" discussions as well...

The world is told that progess is being made and time after time, we see an "accord" between the two groups, only to be "busted" by one or the other.

One thing Carter can do is bring more notice to the situation perhaps...

[mrbeast]

Think in the end its all going to have to boil down to talking. Take Northern Ireland for example. 30 Years of terrorism, killings and destruction; brought to an end by talking. Military action can only do so much.

[August]

Hamas is first and foremost a terrorist organization. A president(even a past president) talking to them sets a bad precedence. It will be seen as a propaganda feather in their cap. I'm not against dialog but it should be low level. Carter is dead wrong doing this. Ok, just being the Devils Advocate...

Only the militant wings of Hamas is "officially" considered "terrorist". Yes, the Hamas govenment is described as a "group involved in terrorist attacks" but they did legitimately win a majority of seats in the legislative council of the Palestinian Authority...

How "low level" would we have to be to initiate a dialog? I doubt that if the US send a junior attache from the US Embassy to talk, that any good would come from it. Higher level "official" dialogs between Hamas, Israel, US, et al have failed to produce any significant results and I'm pretty certain there were "lower level" discussions as well...

The world is told that progess is being made and time after time, we see an "accord" between the two groups, only to be "busted" by one or the other.

One thing Carter can do is bring more notice to the situation perhaps...
More notice to the situation? How much more notice of the Palestinian problem does the world need? It's been a nearly daily news item for the past 40 years. Carter of all people is not going to change that.

This is Jimy Carter we're talking about. He has been playing self appointed diplomat for well over a decade now with no more success than he had during his presidency.

[DeepIron]

Hamas is first and foremost a terrorist organization. A president(even a past president) talking to them sets a bad precedence. It will be seen as a propaganda feather in their cap. I'm not against dialog but it should be low level. Carter is dead wrong doing this. Ok, just being the Devils Advocate...

Only the militant wings of Hamas is "officially" considered "terrorist". Yes, the Hamas govenment is described as a "group involved in terrorist attacks" but they did legitimately win a majority of seats in the legislative council of the Palestinian Authority...

How "low level" would we have to be to initiate a dialog? I doubt that if the US send a junior attache from the US Embassy to talk, that any good would come from it. Higher level "official" dialogs between Hamas, Israel, US, et al have failed to produce any significant results and I'm pretty certain there were "lower level" discussions as well...

The world is told that progess is being made and time after time, we see an "accord" between the two groups, only to be "busted" by one or the other.

One thing Carter can do is bring more notice to the situation perhaps...
More notice to the situation? How much more notice of the Palestinian problem does the world need? It's been a nearly daily news item for the past 40 years. Carter of all people is not going to change that. That's the point. This situation hasn't changed in decades. I don't see why the administration is upset as, AFAIK, all "official' channels have led to nothing... What I'm saying is "Why not?". What further "damage" can be done that hasn't already? I can't see where using ex-Prez Carter in any propaganda will change anything either... The worst that can happen is, what? That these people will continue to kill one another? Status Quo...
This is Jimy Carter we're talking about. He has been playing self appointed diplomat for well over a decade now with no more success than he had during his presidency.Who knows?

[JSLTIGER]

Hamas is first and foremost a terrorist organization. A president(even a past president) talking to them sets a bad precedence. It will be seen as a propaganda feather in their cap. I'm not against dialog but it should be low level. Carter is dead wrong doing this.
Agreed!

Ok, just being the Devils Advocate...

Only the militant wings of Hamas is "officially" considered "terrorist". Yes, the Hamas govenment is described as a "group involved in terrorist attacks" but they did legitimately win a majority of seats in the legislative council of the Palestinian Authority...
To respond to this one, if Hamas was legitimately elected to a legitimate governmental body, then that makes the actions of the entire party a governmental action.

Hamas was the group in charge when members of Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldier by the name of Gilad Shalit in 2006. As you've already established that Hamas legitimately was elected to a legitimate government body, then that means that the actions of its members represent the actions of the Palestinian government. I don't know what you call the kidnapping of one government's agent by another government's agent, but AFAIK, it's called an act of war.

You cannot separate "Hamas" from "Hamas' militant wing." They are one and the same, sharing the same ideas and views. You cannot simply select the parts of Hamas that you want to and not hold them responsible for Hamas' actions.

[Skybird]

A treaty or deal or agreement with a terror organisation that is totally hostile to what is valued in Western culture is worth nothing. They will play ball only as long as they see fit. I usually have a good opinion of Carter, but this time I totally disagree with him, completely. Every word negotiated with Hamas is a waste of breath.

[August]

Hamas is first and foremost a terrorist organization. A president(even a past president) talking to them sets a bad precedence. It will be seen as a propaganda feather in their cap. I'm not against dialog but it should be low level. Carter is dead wrong doing this. Ok, just being the Devils Advocate...

Only the militant wings of Hamas is "officially" considered "terrorist". Yes, the Hamas govenment is described as a "group involved in terrorist attacks" but they did legitimately win a majority of seats in the legislative council of the Palestinian Authority...

How "low level" would we have to be to initiate a dialog? I doubt that if the US send a junior attache from the US Embassy to talk, that any good would come from it. Higher level "official" dialogs between Hamas, Israel, US, et al have failed to produce any significant results and I'm pretty certain there were "lower level" discussions as well...

The world is told that progess is being made and time after time, we see an "accord" between the two groups, only to be "busted" by one or the other.

One thing Carter can do is bring more notice to the situation perhaps...
More notice to the situation? How much more notice of the Palestinian problem does the world need? It's been a nearly daily news item for the past 40 years. Carter of all people is not going to change that. That's the point. This situation hasn't changed in decades. I don't see why the administration is upset as, AFAIK, all "official' channels have led to nothing... What I'm saying is "Why not?". What further "damage" can be done that hasn't already? I can't see where using ex-Prez Carter in any propaganda will change anything either... The worst that can happen is, what? That these people will continue to kill one another? Status Quo...
This is Jimy Carter we're talking about. He has been playing self appointed diplomat for well over a decade now with no more success than he had during his presidency.Who knows?
Well actually the worst that could happen was to have a former US presidents head sawn off on al jazzera, but seriously I'd rather not see a him played like the chump I know he will be.

I do suppose however that a little official displeasure by the Bush administration might give Carter some stock in whatever negotiations he's going to attempt.

[DeepIron]

Well actually the worst that could happen was to have a former US presidents head sawn off on al jazzera, but seriously I'd rather not see a him played like the chump I know he will be.Let's hope not, on both points!
I do suppose however that a little official displeasure by the Bush administration might give Carter some stock in whatever negotiations he's going to attempt.Again, why not? Nothing else has worked, and perhaps it might spur a little more "urgency" from the BA. Now THAT would good on GWB's resume... achieving some long lasting peace between Palestine and Israel... One can only hope..

[NEON DEON]

Hamas is first and foremost a terrorist organization. A president(even a past president) talking to them sets a bad precedence. It will be seen as a propaganda feather in their cap. I'm not against dialog but it should be low level. Carter is dead wrong doing this. Ok, just being the Devils Advocate...

Only the militant wings of Hamas is "officially" considered "terrorist". Yes, the Hamas govenment is described as a "group involved in terrorist attacks" but they did legitimately win a majority of seats in the legislative council of the Palestinian Authority...

How "low level" would we have to be to initiate a dialog? I doubt that if the US send a junior attache from the US Embassy to talk, that any good would come from it. Higher level "official" dialogs between Hamas, Israel, US, et al have failed to produce any significant results and I'm pretty certain there were "lower level" discussions as well...

The world is told that progess is being made and time after time, we see an "accord" between the two groups, only to be "busted" by one or the other.

One thing Carter can do is bring more notice to the situation perhaps...
More notice to the situation? How much more notice of the Palestinian problem does the world need? It's been a nearly daily news item for the past 40 years. Carter of all people is not going to change that.

This is Jimy Carter we're talking about. He has been playing self appointed diplomat for well over a decade now with no more success than he had during his presidency.

Carter won the Nobel peace prize in 2002. :cool:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/11/carter.nobel/index.html

"Carter has been repeatedly nominated for the prize, worth $1 million, and came close to winning in 1978 when he brought Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and Egyptian President Anwar Sadat together to sign the Camp David Peace Accords"

He can self appoint any time he wants.:up: :yep:

[SUBMAN1]

This is just dumb. All this is doing is acknowledging Hamas's legitimacy to exist and at the same time, telling people that they are practically a recognized government. Maybe we will all get lucky and Carter will be assassinated. That way it will be a message the the rest of the world of what it is exactly that you are dealing with.

-S

[NEON DEON]

Maybe we will all get lucky and Carter will be assassinated.-S

Wow you are hoping a former head of state of your country be assassinated.

:down: :down: :down: :down:

Or are you just trolling?

My opinion:

That is disgusting and I dont see how you can say crap like that!

[SUBMAN1]

Wow you are hoping a former head of state of your country be assassinated.

:down: :down: :down: :down:

Or are you just trolling?

My opinion:

That is disgusting and I dont see how you can say crap like that!Figuratively. But he deserves it for going there against everyones wishes.

Even the Israelies refused to give him a security detail - basically they say the same thing through actions. They are ticked.

-S

[DeepIron]

Figuratively. But he deserves it for going there against everyones wishes. Meaning the Bush Administration and the Israelis... Hey, the man is still a citizen of a free country. If he wants to meet with someone, how dare the BA or anybody interfere or critisize. He has made his intention plain enough, no cloak and dagger, no backroom deals...

Even the Israelies refused to give him a security detail - basically they say the same thing through actions. Not giving him a security detail has probably saved his life... Who knows where a bullet might come from...

They are ticked.So what? This is the United States of America and since when do we cowtow to Israel? I hope they stay ticked. Might be interesting to find out just what Hamas has to say that isn't filtered through US and Israeli bias...

[SUBMAN1]

Meaning the Bush Administration and the Israelis... Hey, the man is still a citizen of a free country. If he wants to meet with someone, how dare the BA or anybody interfere or critisize. He has made his intention plain enough, no cloak and dagger, no backroom deals...Bush never said anything that I know of. He has been counciled away from doing this however by many parties, most non-political

Not giving him a security detail has probably saved his life... Who knows where a bullet might come from...Tell that to the Secret Service - they are all ticked that he has become a possible target because of this and they don't have the capability to protect him without the Isralies help.

So what? This is the United States of America and since when do we cowtow to Israel? I hope they stay ticked. Might be interesting to find out just what Hamas has to say that isn't filtered through US and Israeli bias...Hardly. You'll get a bunch of propaganda - that is the only for sure thing there is, besides the fact that you are boosting Hamas's credibility throughout the world by having an Ex US President pay them respect. Say what you will, but this is the worst idea ever. Maybe Carter is working to redeem himself from a pathetic presidency, so he is shooting for a jackpot in a casino that is known for taking your money.

-S

[DeepIron]

Hardly. You'll get a bunch of propaganda - that is the only for sure thing there is, besides the fact that you are boosting Hamas's credibility throughout the world by having an Ex US President pay them respect.C'mon S, we're going to get the propaganda anyway...

So what has paying them NO respect gotten us?

Norwegian Nobel Committee praised Carter's decades of "untiring effort to find peaceful solutions to international conflicts, to advance democracy and human rights, and to promote economic and social development."
Carter has been repeatedly nominated for the prize, worth $1 million, and came close to winning in 1978 when he brought Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and Egyptian President Anwar Sadat together to sign the Camp David Peace Accords, but his presidency faltered under the weight of the Iran hostage crisis.

"Pathetic" presidency or not (to each his own, I liked him). Not everyone wins the Nobel Prize... so I wouldn't judge his actions solely based on his term in office...

[August]

"Pathetic" presidency or not (to each his own, I liked him). Not everyone wins the Nobel Prize... so I wouldn't judge his actions solely based on his term in office...

Aside from his Habitat for Humanity project I don't think much of his actions since he left the White House either. What is at issue here is his skill as a mediator and in this, especially post presidency, he has been an abject failure.

[DeepIron]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7354027.stm

But Israeli industry minister Eli Yishai has told Mr Carter he is willing to meet Hamas leaders to negotiate the release of prisoners held by the group. His spokesman said Mr Yishai had passed the proposal to Mr Carter ahead of his trip to Syria, saying he was "ready to meet with all necessary Hamas members" - including Mr Meshaal - for talks.Hey, at least it's something...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7354027.stm
Israelis to build 100 homes in the West Bank... Israel is doing this despite protests from the International Community to freeze further developments in the West Bank.

[bradclark1]

Tell that to the Secret Service - they are all ticked that he has become a possible target because of this and they don't have the capability to protect him without the Isralies help.
-S
Carter still has a Secret Service detail and I'm sure it will be beefed up plus Israel while being against it will still provide background security just because it wouldn't look good if he got knocked off in their back yard.

[SUBMAN1]

Carter still has a Secret Service detail and I'm sure it will be beefed up plus Israel while being against it will still provide background security just because it wouldn't look good if he got knocked off in their back yard.Nope - Carter got the shaft on this one. No increased Secret Service, and completely shunned 100% by the Israelies. Quite frankly, it would look good for the Israelies if he got bumped off in their backyard. This would translate into further support for fighting Hamas.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Things are getting uglier. Notice how they say the same thing I said - it lends support and legitimacy to a terrorists organization.

-S



NEWS Release

http://www.house.gov/list/press/nc09_myrick/pr_house_seal.jpg


U.S. Rep. Sue Myrick

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/pr_house_seal.jpg Representing North Carolina’s Ninth District


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 16, 2008
Contact: Andy Polk
(202) 225-1976
Rep. Myrick Calls for Former President Jimmy Carter’s Passport to be Revoked


(Washington, D.C.) – Today, Rep. Sue Myrick (NC-9) called on Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to revoke former President Jimmy Carter’s passport. This is in response to the former President traveling to Syria to meet with Hamas, an organization officially designated by the United States as a Foreign Terrorist Organization.

“Former President Carter has acted in contradiction of international agreements to isolate Hamas. He has acted in defiance of both United States policy and international policy. His actions reward terrorists, lend support, and provide legitimacy to their belief that violence will eventually get them what they want,” said Rep. Myrick.

After Hamas won the 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections the Quartet (US, UN, EU and Russia) called on Hamas to renounce terror, recognize Israel and recognize the previous agreements between the Palestinian Authority and Israel as they seek an agreement to make peace. Hamas has categorically rejected these three conditions for more than two years.

Congress granted the Secretary of State the power to grant and verify passports. In 1981, the United States Supreme Court held in the case of Haig v. Agee that the Secretary of State has the implied power to revoke passports as well (453 U.S. 280).

Background
Carter embraces Hamas official at West Bank meeting: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080415/D902HRSO0.html (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080415/D902HRSO0.html)
http://www.house.gov/list/press/nc09_myrick/041608carterpassport.html

[Konovalov]

Myrick is hysteric suggesting such a thing. :down: It will not happen and rightly so. :yep:

[SUBMAN1]

Myrick is hysteric suggesting such a thing. :down: It will not happen and rightly so. :yep:Using the word 'hysteric' sounds very sexist. Hysteric- from the Greek notion that hysteria was peculiar to women and caused by disturbances of the uterus.

[bradclark1]

Things are getting uglier. Notice how they say the same thing I said - it lends support and legitimacy to a terrorists organization.

-S
She's just trying for face time on the news is all.

[SUBMAN1]

She's just trying for face time on the news is all.I don't think so. I think she is trying to be just and do the right thing. Carter however is just looking for cam time.

-S

[DeepIron]

What a joke.

The United States, the greatest freedom loving country in the world wants to revoke a Nobel Peace Prize recipient and former Presidents travel visa because he has an interest in trying to revive a stalemated peace process...

Carter however is just looking for cam time.To what end? He has constantly avoided the spotlight personally, allowing his foundation work on the issues...

[EDITED FOR POTENTIALLY INFLAMMATORY CONTENT]

[SUBMAN1]

Not even close. Who exactly elected Carter in this great democracy to go over there and create worse issues for our country by talking with known terrorists? These are the same people that dance in the street when US citizens are blown up! :down: ANd now you want to give them credibility? Real nice. Get a grip on reality for once. Nothing good can come out of this, and Carter is going there acting on his own behalf, yet he brings it like he is representing our country and they will see it like he is representing our country? Are you nuts? This is the craziest idea ever!

-S

[Tchocky]

There can be no peace between Israel and Palestine without Hamas, seeing as how they represent the majority of Palestinians. The current US/Syrian/Israeli attitude of isolation will do nothing but harden attitudes.
Trying not to go over what Platapus said, the propaganda spin that Hamas put on this isn't going to be a fair reference of what actually takes place. Find me a government or political party that doesn't do this.
They are a terrorist group, yes. But they are also the legitimately electedd governement of the Palestinian people, which itself demands a response other than ignorance.
Saying that this visit by Carter is what confers legitimacy on Hamas is silly, and insulting to those who elected them.

[DeepIron]

@tchocky... :up:

An interesting quote from U.S. Policy World: http://www.uspw.org/index.php?title=Israel/Palestine

In April 2004 Bush accepted Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's unilateral plan to permanently absorb the huge West Bank settlement blocs and their 220,000 settlers into Israel. For the first time, the United States explicitly and officially rejected the internationally recognized and UN-sanctioned Palestinian right of return. The Bush-Sharon agreement was the U.S. quid pro quo for Israel's decision to withdraw the illegal Israeli settlers and Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip. Bush thus essentially banished any commitment to achieving a serious and comprehensive solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Bush's "new status quo"—permanent Israeli occupation, no right of return for Palestinians, and no viable Palestinian state—has set the terms for the next indefinite period.
'nuff said...

[EDITED ONCE AGAIN FOR POTENTIALLY INFLAMMATORY CONTENT] One day I'll learn...

[DeepIron]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/04/18/carter.hamas/index.html

Two of the most sensible things I've read yet: "I'm not a negotiator. I'm just trying to understand different opinions and communicate, provide communications between people that won't communicate with each other," Carter said earlier this week at the start of his trip.
You should never give in to the terrorists; you should never accept their demands, but you should never be the ones refusing to talk," said Jonathan Powell, who was chief of staff for former British Prime Minister Tony Blair. In more than a decade in his job, Powell supported a secret channel of communication to sworn enemies in the Northern Ireland conflict. He said it was the only way to make peace.

[SUBMAN1]

There can be no peace between Israel and Palestine without Hamas, seeing as how they represent the majority of Palestinians. This is only because you are willing to give them legitimacy. The current US/Syrian/Israeli attitude of isolation will do nothing but harden attitudes. Hardly - we don't negotiate with terrorists since that only encourages more of the same actions.

They are a terrorist group, yes. But they are also the legitimately electedd governement of the Palestinian people, which itself demands a response other than ignorance. oh are they? Did they not force people to vote for them? I believe they did. And any person that takes joy in the killing of my people, or the Jewish people... Why do you support these barbaric acts? Are you a Muslim that enjoys the killing of Westerners? Every post you make on the subject points that direction.

Saying that this visit by Carter is what confers legitimacy on Hamas is silly, and insulting to those who elected them.No one ELECTED him to do this. Did you elect him? You probably did after the fact, but your vote means nothing in the US, so it means nothing. So I hope its insulting to the people who elected him - which is one person - Carter, who is the only one who elected that he do this on his own. He needs to be insulted.

Now since the Koran requires that Hamas kill the Jews, nothing will come of this either, except insults to the Western world. And I'll tell you who its really insulting to - the United States of America. Screw Carter. He might as well stay over there since he is not welcome over here anymore.

-S

[Tchocky]

There can be no peace between Israel and Palestine without Hamas, seeing as how they represent the majority of Palestinians. This is only because you are willing to give them legitimacy.Are you joking? Most Palestinians support Hamas, it is therefore logical that agreement between Israel and Palestine will, at least these days, involve Hamas. Excluding Hamas from discussion will embitter their supporters, making further progress that much more difficult in a region where unnecessary problems have to be avoided. THe legitimacy, however distasteful, is already conferred through election.
The current US/Syrian/Israeli attitude of isolation will do nothing but harden attitudes. Hardly - we don't negotiate with terrorists since that only encourages more of the same actions.Hamas occupy the unusual position of being both terrorists and popularly elected government. If you want peace in the Middle East, you deal with the factions that exist, not imaginary ones. Excluding Hamas alienates a huge number of people, and popular support for a workable peace is desperately needed.
They are a terrorist group, yes. But they are also the legitimately electedd governement of the Palestinian people, which itself demands a response other than ignorance. oh are they? Did they not force people to vote for them? I believe they did. The elections were professionally conducted, albeit with tactical platforming by Hamas which makes their majority appear more than it actually is.
And any person that takes joy in the killing of my people, or the Jewish people... Why do you support these barbaric acts?No straw men please, I've never said anything of the sort. I'm advocating negotiation in the place of exclusion and conflict. If you have to invent things to argue then please do it with someone else's posts.
Are you a Muslim that enjoys the killing of Westerners? Every post you make on the subject points that direction. Back this up please. Failing that, keep your vaguely racist constructions to yourself.

Saying that this visit by Carter is what confers legitimacy on Hamas is silly, and insulting to those who elected them.No one ELECTED him to do this. Did you elect him? You probably did after the fact, but your vote means nothing in the US, so it means nothing. So I hope its insulting to the people who elected him - which is one person - Carter, who is the only one who elected that he do this on his own. He needs to be insulted. You misunderstand. I am referring to the election of Hamas, not Carter.

[SUBMAN1]

There can be no peace between Israel and Palestine without Hamas, seeing as how they represent the majority of Palestinians. This is only because you are willing to give them legitimacy.Are you joking? Most Palestinians support Hamas, it is therefore logical that agreement between Israel and Palestine will, at least these days, involve Hamas. Excluding Hamas from discussion will embitter their supporters, making further progress that much more difficult in a region where unnecessary problems have to be avoided. THe legitimacy, however distasteful, is already conferred through election.
The current US/Syrian/Israeli attitude of isolation will do nothing but harden attitudes. Hardly - we don't negotiate with terrorists since that only encourages more of the same actions.Hamas occupy the unusual position of being both terrorists and popularly elected government. If you want peace in the Middle East, you deal with the factions that exist, not imaginary ones. Excluding Hamas alienates a huge number of people, and popular support for a workable peace is desperately needed.
They are a terrorist group, yes. But they are also the legitimately electedd governement of the Palestinian people, which itself demands a response other than ignorance. oh are they? Did they not force people to vote for them? I believe they did. The elections were professionally conducted, albeit with tactical platforming by Hamas which makes their majority appear more than it actually is.
And any person that takes joy in the killing of my people, or the Jewish people... Why do you support these barbaric acts?No straw men please, I've never said anything of the sort. I'm advocating negotiation in the place of exclusion and conflict. If you have to invent things to argue then please do it with someone else's posts.
Are you a Muslim that enjoys the killing of Westerners? Every post you make on the subject points that direction. Back this up please. Failing that, keep your vaguely racist constructions to yourself.

Saying that this visit by Carter is what confers legitimacy on Hamas is silly, and insulting to those who elected them.No one ELECTED him to do this. Did you elect him? You probably did after the fact, but your vote means nothing in the US, so it means nothing. So I hope its insulting to the people who elected him - which is one person - Carter, who is the only one who elected that he do this on his own. He needs to be insulted. You misunderstand. I am referring to the election of Hamas, not Carter.Basically, if you have anything of substance to add other than attacks, then please, lets continue this discussion. This is a pretty pathetic response.

-S

[Tchocky]

Basically, if you have anything of substance to add other than attacks, then please, lets continue this discussion. This is a pretty pathetic response.

-S See the first two segments of my post. They describe why I feel that engagement is a better policy than exclusion.

[SUBMAN1]

See the first two segments of my post. They describe why I feel that engagement is a better policy than exclusion.Well, on the idea that its a good idea this is happening, though its not, but if it was, remember who you are dealing with. Carter is known for having no clue on how to deal with terrorists organizations. He just doesn't understand them. He thinks they think like him, and they aren't.

Your first clue that he doesn't understand them is that he is going there in the first place against the wishes of anyone who has advised him on the subject.

Your second clue is 444 days of hostage crisis in Iran during his presidency. You also had airline hijacking through this time, and he couldn't resolve those either. These people simply used him in the past to further their aims and goals, and they are doing it yet again.

I can't believe he just doesn't get it, yet how could we have elected him as president for 4 years? It is pretty obvious why he didn't get a second term.

-S

PS. The point is - Carter is giving them a platform in the world where none existed before. His simple presence means people are going to look. This is how they are using him.

[DeepIron]

These people simply used him in the past to further their aims and goals, and they are doing it yet again.How so? I haven't seen one single article or item that indicates that Hamas or any other group is using this event in any propagandist way. Not one...

PS. The point is - Carter is giving them a platform in the world where none existed before. His simple presence means people are going to look. This is how they are using him.No one has "used" him yet. As for a platform, I'm glad to see Carter involved in this humanitarian crisis. What don't these people deserve to exist? Aren't Palestinians human beings?

Everyone wants to color this through "terrorism-colored" glasses. I call BS. These are people who are being denied their existence. Just like the friggin' Jews... And the Jews NEVER let the world forget about THEIR struggle.

Just like the world judges the US by the actions of our government, so we are guilty of the same thing. We forget these are PEOPLE, not just a religious idealism. Hamas IS a legally recognized government whether we like it or not.

Shutting them out and closing the channels of communications the way the US and Israel have leaves the Palestinians little choice in how to be heard by the rest of the world.

[SUBMAN1]

These people simply used him in the past to further their aims and goals, and they are doing it yet again.How so? I haven't seen one single article or item that indicates that Hamas or anyother group is using this event in any propagandist way. Not one...

PS. The point is - Carter is giving them a platform in the world where none existed before. His simple presence means people are going to look. This is how they are using him.No one has "used" him yet. As for a platform, I'm glad to see Carter involved in this humanitarian crisis. What don't these people deserve to exist? Aren't Palestinians human beings?

Everyone wants to color this through "terrorism-colored" glasses. I call BS. These are people who are being denied their existence. Just like the friggin' Jews... And the Jews NEVER let the world forget about THEIR struggle.

Just like the world judges the US by the actions of our government, so we are guilty of the same thing. We forget these are PEOPLE, not just a religious idealism. Hamas IS a legally recognized government whether we like it or not.

Shutting them out and closing the channels of communications the way the US and Israel have leaves the Palestinians little choice in how to be heard by the rest of the world.Here is your people:

-S

HAMAS

Militancy and terrorism


Suicide attacks

Suicide attacks are the main element of what the group sees as its asymmetric warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_warfare) against Israel. Since the group considers all Israel to be a "militarized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarism) society" Hamas condones attacks on civilian targets. The group's willingness to target civilian facilities including buses, supermarkets, and restaurants is the reason why some governments classify it as a terrorist movement (although Hamas claims being a national liberation movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_liberation_movement)).

Hamas' first use of suicide bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombing) occurred on April 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_16), 1993 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993) when a suicide bomber driving an explosive-laden van detonated between two buses parked at a restaurant. It was Hamas' 19th known attack since 1989 (the others being shootings, kidnappings and knife attacks).[98] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-97)
Hamas continued to launch suicide attacks during the Oslo Accords period (see List of Hamas suicide attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hamas_suicide_attacks)).

During the second Intifada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada), Hamas, along with the Islamic Jihad Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad_Movement), spearheaded the violence through the years of the Palestinian uprising.[99] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-98) Since then Hamas has conducted many attacks on Israel, mainly through its military wing — the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades). These attacks have included large-scale suicide bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombing) against Israeli civilian targets, the most deadly of which was the bombing of a Netanya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netanya) hotel on March 27 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_27), 2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002), in which 30 people were killed and 140 were wounded. This attack has also been referred to as the Passover massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netanya_suicide_attack) since it took place on the first night of the Jewish festival of Passover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover). Overall, from November 2000 to April 2004, 377 Israeli citizens and soldiers were killed and 2,076 wounded in 425 attacks by Hamas. (Source: IDF website (http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=30286.EN).) The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs maintains a comprehensive list of Hamas attacks. March 2004.htm (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terror+Groups/Hamas+terror+attacks+22)
In a 2002 report, Human Rights Watch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch) stated that Hamas' leaders "should be held accountable for the war crimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime) and crimes against humanity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity)" that have been committed by its members.[100] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-hrw.org-bombing-99)
A few female suicide bombers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_suicide_bomber), including a mother of six and a mother of two children under the age of 10 have also executed suicide bombings. Abdel Aziz Rantisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdel_Aziz_Rantisi) has said, "The Hamas movement is prepared to stop terror against Israeli civilians if Israel stops killing Palestinian civilians ... We have told (Palestinian Authority Prime Minister) Abu Mazen in our meetings that there is an opportunity to stop targeting Israeli civilians if the Israelis stop assassinations and raids and stop brutalizing Palestinian civilians."[101] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-100)
In May 2006 Israel arrested Hamas top official Ibrahim Hamed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Hamed) whom Israeli security officials claim was responsible for dozens of suicide bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombings) and other attacks on Israelis.[102] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-101)
On Feb 7, 2008 Hamas resumed the suicide bombings against civilian targets inside Israel killing an 74 year old woman and wounding her husband and other civilians[23] (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2253015,00.html),[24] (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/951556.html),[25] (http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=991),[26] (http://www.philly.com/dailynews/national/20080206_Hamas__Suicide_bombing_was_ours.html),[27] (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200802/INT20080207b.html)
On March 5, 2008 various news services reported that Hamas had claimed responsibility for the killing of 8 Yeshiva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshiva) students in Jerusalem. [103] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-102) A spokesman for Hamas has rebutted the claim, stating that it is "an honour we have not claimed yet", and the official position is that the attack has been attributed to the "Free Men of Galilee", who are affiliated with Hezbollah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah). [104] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-103)

Shelling and rocket attacks on civilians

Since 2002, Hamas has used homemade Qassam rockets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket) to hit Israeli towns in the Negev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev), such as Sderot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sderot). The introduction of the Qassam-2 rocket has allowed Hamas to reach large Israeli cities such as Ashkelon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkelon), bringing great concern to the Israeli populace and many attempts by the Israeli military to stop the proliferation and use of the rockets. On March 2008 one of Hamas politburo members sent a letter to Arab leaders urging them not to condem attacks on civilians[28] (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3524753,00.html)

Guerilla warfare


Hamas has made great use of guerrilla tactics in the Gaza Strip and to a lesser degree the West Bank.[105] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-ynetnews_weight-104) Hamas has successfully adapted these techniques over the years since its inception. According to a 2006 report by rival Fatah party, Hamas had smuggled "between several hundred and 1,300 tons" of advanced rockets, along with other weaponry, into Gaza. Some Israelis and some Gazans both noted similarities in Hamas's military buildup to that of Hezbollah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah) in the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war.[105] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-ynetnews_weight-104)
Hamas has used IEDs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_explosive_device) and anti-tank rockets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_rocket) against the IDF in Gaza. The latter include standard RPG-7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7) warheads and home-made rockets such as the Al-Bana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Bana), Al-Batar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batar) and Al-Yasin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasin). The home-made rockets proved ineffective against Israeli armor[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)], while Popular Resistance Committees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Resistance_Committees)' IEDs destroyed 3 Israeli tanks in 2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002). The IDF has a difficult, if not impossible time trying to find hidden weapons caches in Palestinian areas — this is due to the high local support base Hamas enjoys.[106] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-105)

Others attacked

In addition to killing Israeli civilians, Hamas has also attacked Israeli military and security forces (occasionally inside Israel), suspected Palestinian collaborators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborator), and Fatah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah) rivals.[107] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-106)
On February 2007, members of the Palestinian Red Crescent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Red_Crescent), speaking on conditions on anonymity, said that Hamas had confiscated their humanitarian supply convoys that were destined for Palestinian civilians. Hamas claims the supplies were heading to former members of Fatah. [108] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-107)

Call to attack United States targets

On November 8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_8), 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006) the military wing of Hamas called on Muslims around the world to attack American targets. "America is offering political, financial and logistic cover for the Zionist occupation crimes, and it is responsible for the Beit Hanoun massacre. Therefore, the people and the nation all over the globe are required to teach the American enemy tough lessons," Hamas said in a statement sent to The Associated Press. Ghazi Hamad, spokesman for the Hamas-led Palestinian government said that the group had no intention of attacking American targets and denied any involvement with the statement.[109] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-108)
It has been alleged that Hamas threatens the United States through covert cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_cells) on U.S. soil, and that the FBI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI) and United States Department of Justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Justice) are aware of these cells.[110] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-109)[111] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-110) Hamas has repeatedly stated that it is only interested in operations against the Israeli occupation and not a single suicide attack outside Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank has ever been attributed to Hamas.

Summary executions

Human Rights Watch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch) has cited a number of summary executions as particular examples of violations of the rules of warfare, including the case of Muhammad Swairki, 28, a cook for Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's presidential guard, who was thrown to his death, with his hands and legs tied, from a 15-story apartment building in Gaza City. [29] (http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/news/article_1316850.php/Human_rights_group_accused_Palestinian_militants_o f_&quotwar_crimes),[30] (http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/175819.aspx),[31] (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3412683,00.html)
Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups frequently extrajudicially execute or otherwise punish those they consider collaborators with Israel. Frequent killings of unarmed people have also occurred during Hamas-Fatah clashes.[32] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2090520.stm),[33] (http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1210), [34] (http://www.mideastweb.org/log/archives/00000599.htm),[35] (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldnews&storyID=2007-06-14T180139Z_01_FLE455032_RTRUKOC_0_US-PALESTINIANS.xml),[36] (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/10/wirq310.xml)

[Happy Times]

These people simply used him in the past to further their aims and goals, and they are doing it yet again.How so? I haven't seen one single article or item that indicates that Hamas or anyother group is using this event in any propagandist way. Not one...

PS. The point is - Carter is giving them a platform in the world where none existed before. His simple presence means people are going to look. This is how they are using him.No one has "used" him yet. As for a platform, I'm glad to see Carter involved in this humanitarian crisis. What don't these people deserve to exist? Aren't Palestinians human beings?

Everyone wants to color this through "terrorism-colored" glasses. I call BS. These are people who are being denied their existence. Just like the friggin' Jews... And the Jews NEVER let the world forget about THEIR struggle.

Just like the world judges the US by the actions of our government, so we are guilty of the same thing. We forget these are PEOPLE, not just a religious idealism. Hamas IS a legally recognized government whether we like it or not.

Shutting them out and closing the channels of communications the way the US and Israel have leaves the Palestinians little choice in how to be heard by the rest of the world.

There is no excuse for Hamas, they dont recognize Israels right to exist, they never will. The Palestinians struggle is of their own making, they have the power to stop the violance by not voting to terrorists. This is just another front of global Jihad and any Hamas supporter i consider as enemies.

[DeepIron]

So, what your saying is that it was perfectly acceptable to establish Israel as a nation by forcing the Palestinians from their lands... The Palestinians occupied the area now known as Israel for thousands of years until 1946... And you expect them to just "give up"?

Check out the map...

http://www.friendsofpalestine.org.au/images/Palestine%20Map%20Big.jpg

This is akin to the destruction of the Native American Nations in America during the expansion years in the 1800's....

[JSLTIGER]

Again, from my earlier post:

To respond to this one, if Hamas was legitimately elected to a legitimate governmental body, then that makes the actions of the entire party a governmental action.

Hamas was the group in charge when members of Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldier by the name of Gilad Shalit in 2006. As you've already established that Hamas legitimately was elected to a legitimate government body, then that means that the actions of its members represent the actions of the Palestinian government. I don't know what you call the kidnapping of one government's agent by another government's agent, but AFAIK, it's called an act of war.

You cannot separate "Hamas" from "Hamas' militant wing." They are one and the same, sharing the same ideas and views. You cannot simply select the parts of Hamas that you want to and not hold them responsible for Hamas' actions.

This is the type of people Carter's talking with (from a Reuters story published today):

Hamas was open to the release of the soldier, Gilad Shalit, "but not without a price," Nazzal said. Hamas has previously demanded Israel free hundreds of jailed Palestinians in return for his release.

When does the price become too high?

Just like the friggin' Jews...

I take extreme offense at that remark. It is incredibly inappropriate.



I wonder also, why no one remembers this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k

Why should we be supporting these people?

[DeepIron]

I take extreme offense at that remark. It is incredibly inappropriate.I apologize then. For my part, I'm incredibly tired of hearing about the Jews and THEIR struggle to survive when I look at their hypocrisy in what is being done to the Palestinian people.

[JSLTIGER]

So, what your saying is that it was perfectly acceptable to establish Israel as a nation by forcing the Palestinians from their lands... The Palestinians occupied the area now known as Israel for thousands of years until 1946... And you expect them to just "give up"?

Check out the map...

http://www.friendsofpalestine.org.au/images/Palestine%20Map%20Big.jpg

This is akin to the destruction of the Native American Nations in America during the expansion years in the 1800's....
Look at the source you're using, dude! Prior to the 1970s there WAS NO PALESTINIAN MOVEMENT. I know...I just spent an entire year writing a thesis on the Six Day War, which I handed in this afternoon. In 1967, there was not a single mention of the word Palestinian. This is because the West Bank was in Jordanian hands and the Gaza Strip was in Egyptian hands. Israel tried to give them back in the Allon Plan after the war, but neither the Jordanians nor the Egyptians would take them! Get your facts straight.

EDIT: It's the continued use of remarks like the one above that keep forcing Jews to remind people.

[bradclark1]

[quote]For my part, I'm incredibly tired of hearing about the Jews and THEIR struggle to survive when I look at their hypocrisy in what is being done to the Palestinian people.
To get into that you have to know the history of Israel. Have you read any of the history?

[DeepIron]

Forget it. I can't discuss this topic any longer without injecting a personal bias into it...

Live long and prosper...

[Happy Times]

So, what your saying is that it was perfectly acceptable to establish Israel as a nation by forcing the Palestinians from their lands... The Palestinians occupied the area now known as Israel for thousands of years until 1946... And you expect them to just "give up"?

Check out the map...

http://www.friendsofpalestine.org.au/images/Palestine%20Map%20Big.jpg

This is akin to the destruction of the Native American Nations in America during the expansion years in the 1800's....

Thousands of years? Please, they are mostly related to the Arabs conquerors. Many arabs declared to be palestinians after -48 to get in to the "refugee" camps were international aid was delivered. Its the Jews that have been there thousands of years.
There was no Palestine state when Israel declared independence and not after it, Egypt and Jordan took the arab territories and waged war from them.
Now that their genocide plans have failed every time they cry for sympathy, i dont have much, not abandoning their plans tough.
I expect nothing from them, but i except the civilized world not to give up to them.

[Tchocky]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0421/mideast.html

Hmm.

Former US president Jimmy Carter has said Hamas told him it would recognise Israel's right to live in peace if a deal is reached and approved by a Palestinian vote.


Mr Carter made the comments following two meetings in Damascus with exiled Hamas chief Khaled Meshaal. The meetings angered Israel and the US, which consider the movement a terror group despite its victory in 2006 elections.


'They said that they would accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders if
approved by Palestinians and that they would accept the right of Israel to live as a neighbour, next door, in peace,' Mr Carter told the Israeli Council on Foreign Relations think-tank.

Should have taken his passport when we had the chance! Dammit!

[Skybird]

The same day Carter reported that Mamas told him they were vready to accept Israel'S right to exist, german media quoted a spokesman of Hamas denying that Hamas has said that, instead they are ready to have a ceasefire for around ten years if Israel withdraws to the borders of '67, but he pointed out that they will not recognize Israel. Not now, not then.

My impression of it: words are cheap, good ol' Carter read to much into it this time, and in the ME, words come and go with the wind, like the seasons. And an agreement with an organization like Hamas I would not bet my life on anyway, at no cost.

[Happy Times]

Hamas rejects Israeli recognition

"We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as an alternative to recognition."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7359661.stm

:rotfl:

[Happy Times]

What is so funny here ? :hmm:

Well you cant take it seriously either.:doh:

[Happy Times]

I don't know, but it would be stupid to dismiss it, Hamas doesn't talk about peace with Israel that often :)

This isnt peace, its a truce, and they have offered that before. They just want 10yrs to rearm and grow in strength, the Israelis would be crazy to agree on this.

[Happy Times]

That's a simplistic view, but well, time will tell :)

I would say its a realistic wiew and yours is idealistic.

[Happy Times]

LOL, I barely said "dismissing talking about that option would be stupid", that's indeed highly idealistic :rotfl:

What is there to discuss? Its not in anyones interest but Hamas. Or do you see some possible way to turn this against Hamas? Then i would like to hear it.

[Skybird]

That's a simplistic view, but well, time will tell :)

I would say its a realistic wiew and yours is idealistic.

Ha, strange, really - down to the word selection and constellation of words: exactly the same answer I was about to post. Only possible that I would have produced one or two typos.

[TheSatyr]

Does anyone else understand at all that solving the Palestinian question would cut down on terrorist attacks on US interests around the world?

If the US took a major role in finally getting the Palestinians an Independant State,itwould take away a major reason for various terrorist organizations to attack the US and make it harder for Al Quaeda to recruit. They wouldn't be able to use the "plight of the Palestinians" as a recruitment tool any more.

It is in the USA's best interests to see a Palestinian State be created and if that means talking to the political wing of Hamas then so be it.

[Happy Times]

Does anyone else understand at all that solving the Palestinian question would cut down on terrorist attacks on US interests around the world?

If the US took a major role in finally getting the Palestinians an Independant State,itwould take away a major reason for various terrorist organizations to attack the US and make it harder for Al Quaeda to recruit. They wouldn't be able to use the "plight of the Palestinians" as a recruitment tool any more.

It is in the USA's best interests to see a Palestinian State be created and if that means talking to the political wing of Hamas then so be it.

Your logic is flawed, it would be a victory that would bring more supporters for Hamas and all terrorists.:nope: There is no sense in making truce with them and "peace" has too big of a price, the end of Israel. What would be next, Califate of Spain?

The Prophet Muhammad made a temporary hudna, or truce, with the Jews about 1,400 years ago, so Hamas allows the idea. But no one in Hamas says he would make a peace treaty with Israel or permanently give up any part of British Mandate Palestine.

“They talk of hudna, not of peace or reconciliation with Israel,” said Mr. Abusada, the political scientist. “They believe over time they will be strong enough to liberate all historic Palestine.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/world/middleeast/01hamas.html?ref=middleeast

[les green01]

they can have him

[Happy Times]

I recommend everyone really interested to read it through.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

[bradclark1]

Does anyone else understand at all that solving the Palestinian question would cut down on terrorist attacks on US interests around the world?

If the US took a major role in finally getting the Palestinians an Independant State,itwould take away a major reason for various terrorist organizations to attack the US and make it harder for Al Quaeda to recruit. They wouldn't be able to use the "plight of the Palestinians" as a recruitment tool any more.

It is in the USA's best interests to see a Palestinian State be created and if that means talking to the political wing of Hamas then so be it.
Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and neighboring Arab states eliminated Palestine as a distinct territory. With the establishment of Israel, the remaining lands were divided amongst Egypt, Syria and Jordan. The Arab governments at this point refused to set up a State of Palestine.
Arab countries sure aren't offering Palestinians lands for a Palestine and they never will. The problem isn't land, the problem is the destruction of the Jewish people.
It's common enough knowledge that whatever lands the Israeli's "give back" to Palestinian control is used for attacks against Israel so has to be reoccupied. There will never be peace in Israel as long as Israel is Israel or there are Jews in the region. Before Israel Jewish settlements were routinely butchered by Arabs so giving Palestinians a Palestine isn't going to accomplish squat.

[caspofungin]

um, the lands the egyptians and the jordanians held after 1948 are the gaza strip and the west bank, which would be the basis of any palestinian state today, so i'm not sure i understand the claim "Arab countries sure aren't offering Palestinians lands for a Palestine and they never will."

Before Israel Jewish settlements were routinely butchered by Arabs

the israelis did their own share of butchering arab settlements.

[Platapus]

the israelis did their own share of butchering arab settlements.

Yes, many people think that the history of violence in that area started out in 1946. The violent history between "israelis" and palestine goes back to the turn of the 20th century.

Violence on both sides. No one's hands are clean in that area.

[bradclark1]

um, the lands the egyptians and the jordanians held after 1948 are the gaza strip and the west bank, which would be the basis of any palestinian state today, so i'm not sure i understand the claim "Arab countries sure aren't offering Palestinians lands for a Palestine and they never will."
Prior to 67 they never offered to give that land for a new Palestine. As the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are occupied by Israel and not claimed to be part of Israel the Arabs could still offer those areas as a new Palestine. Some Palestinians, as well as some Arab states have stated that they would accept a 2-state solution based on pre-1967 lines. Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran,and others however, continue to call for the "liberation" of all of "historic" Palestine from the "Zionist Entity." While Hamas has recently offered a 10-year "hudna", or truce, contingent on Israel returning to the 1967 lines, they have stated publicly they would leave the ultimate solution to the conflict open to "future generations", thus leaving open the possibility that a solution based on the 1967 lines would not suffice, and they have steadfastly refused to alter their Charter, which explicitly calls for the destruction of the Jewish State and its replacement with an Islamic Theocracy. Would you believe a truce being honored. There has been none honored to date that I'm aware of.
The stumbling block is Israels right to exist. There are probably more Israelis and Palestinians that want to co-exist then don't but who is going to allow a state next to you who's ultimate goal is your destruction.
the israelis did their own share of butchering arab settlements.
Millions of Arabs with 800,000+ Jews living in nine middle eastern countries. How much butchering do you think they did? After the birth of Israel all Jews were persecuted, some countries in retaliation stripped Jews of all possessions, bank accounts, property and evicted. Some had no more than the suitcase in their hand.
About 560,000 made it to Israel the rest to European or American countries. Now it's estimated that approx 7,600 Jews live in Arab countries. Of those 5,500 live in Morocco and 1,500 in Tunisia.

[caspofungin]

After the birth of Israel all Jews were persecuted, some countries in retaliation stripped Jews of all possessions, bank accounts, property and evicted. Some had no more than the suitcase in their hand.

First, I'm not saying there wasn't persecution of the jews. but the israelis' hands aren't clean, either -- they persecuted the palestinians too, before and after 1948, culminating in forcing a significant proportion of the palestinians out of their homes. israel promulgates this fiction that the palestinians left willingly.

and that was in 1948. wouldn't you count what happens to the arabs in the occupied territories today as persecution?

but who is going to allow a state next to you who's ultimate goal is your destruction.

funny, that's how plenty of palestinians and israeli arabs view israel -- not without some justification.


There are probably more Israelis and Palestinians that want to co-exist then don't

i'd like to think so, otherwise things will only get worse.

[August]

First, I'm not saying there wasn't persecution of the jews. but the israelis' hands aren't clean, either

No human being who has outgrown their diapers is without some sin Caspofungin, but that don't make Mother Teresa as bad as Charley Manson, does it?

Car bombs, deliberate murder of children and innocents, kidnappings, hijackings, torture, daily rocket attacks aimed at civilian communities INSTEAD of miltary bases, WTF! The worst of Israeli transgressions can hardly compare to stuff like that.

[caspofungin]

that don't make Mother Teresa as bad as Charley Manson, does it?
that's not really the best analogy, is it? if you honestly believe that the way the israelis treat the palestinians is 100% justified, there's no point in further discussion.

From my perspective, both sides are guilty of murder of innocent civilians. somehow, though, no one calls the israelis to task for what they do.

The worst of Israeli transgressions can hardly compare to stuff like that.
you're joking right? the israelis have killed many more palestinian civilians than israli civilians have died, and let's not even count lebanese civilians in 2006. amnesty international, human rights watch, even israeli sources. and that's just the killing. how many israelis live in refugee camps in their own land, running water and electricity working at the whim of the occupiers? restrictions on travel, and so restrictions on health, education, trade?

an entire people living with an israeli jackboot on the back of their neck, punished for the "transgressions" of the minority? and i put transgressions in quotes, because i'll bet you anything you like, if some foreign country takes over your land, August, you'll be one of the first to take up arms in resistance, right? but you'd deny the same right to others?

placing all the blame on one side is pretty weak, both sides have a lot to answer for. but things aren't as clear cut, black-and-white as hollywood, congress, and the knesset would have you believe. and things aren't gonna get fixed when someone can't even attempt to establish a dialogue without being taken to task (to return to the original post.)

[August]

because i'll bet you anything you like, if some foreign country takes over your land, August, you'll be one of the first to take up arms in resistance, right? but you'd deny the same right to others?
Well you're wrong on both counts, but in my book "taking up arms in resistance" does not mean targeting civilians, nor does it mean using civilians as meatshields to hide behind. It does not mean strapping explosives to my childrens waists before i send them out to blow themselves in the nearest crowd of people. Get my drift?

placing all the blame on one side is pretty weak, both sides have a lot to answer for. but things aren't as clear cut, black-and-white as hollywood, congress, and the knesset would have you believe. and things aren't gonna get fixed when someone can't even attempt to establish a dialogue without being taken to task (to return to the original post.)

I believe I have already said that no side is blameless but things aren't gonna get fixed by some has been do-gooder letting himself get used for one sides propaganda effort either.

you're joking right? the israelis have killed many more palestinian civilians than israli civilians have died, and let's not even count lebanese civilians in 2006. amnesty international, human rights watch, even israeli sources. and that's just the killing. how many israelis live in refugee camps in their own land, running water and electricity working at the whim of the occupiers? restrictions on travel, and so restrictions on health, education, trade?
Oh I'm supposed to ignore anything that "hollywood, congress, and the knesset" says but take "amnesty international, human rights watch, even israeli sources" as gospel? Who's joking who here?

And why did Israel invade Lebanon in 2006? I don't know where you're from but i don't know of any country that would allow rocket attacks upon its territory. Again their enemy uses his own civilians as meatshields in order to score propaganda points with a sympathetic world press. Lovely.

an entire people living with an israeli jackboot on the back of their neck, punished for the "transgressions" of the minority?
You call walking into a sleeping household and murdering Israeli infants in their beds or blowing up school busses with suicide bombs "transgressions"?! :o

[August]

Yeah, I'm sure that the civilians killed up in Beyrouth and everywhere in Lebanon were highly involved in the kidnapping of that Israeli soldier.

The kidnapping of that soldier (who BTW has never been returned), the murder of those who were with him and the shelling of Israeli border towns you mean.

Maybe you you think that rocket sites firing from the tops of civilian buildings should be immune from attack?

The bottom line here is that Lebanon allows a foreign army, Hezbollah, to operate from their territory. That will have it's consequences when that army goes to war on Lebanons neighbors.

[Skybird]

Sure, you know I blame hezbollah for that "war" too, but shelling Beyrouth hundreds of km from the borders, and especially some christian parts of it is hardly an appropriate response to short range rockets. Dropping landmines in the countryside or bombing food factories neither. Everyone blamed hezbollah, that's ok, but when it comes to blame Israel for their illegal/immoral acts, there's no much voices to be heard.
How would you have fought them? they store weapons and ammo in schools. They locate their firing positions in civilian areas - and often kept the residents with force of weapon from running away. Thye place a rocket launcher on top of a hospital. they do not aim at Israel in order to hit the government or it's offices and the army, but they intentionally target for killing as many civilians as possible, and they try hard to provoke Iraels striking back - and due to the way they hide behind civilian infrastructure, Israels necessarily hits civilians when it intentionally targets fighters. that that civil infrastructuire that helps the enemy to fight, move and survive, also gets intentionally destroyed, comes by the logic of war, and should be no surpsie. You cannot win a war by saving and helping your enemy.

Your indignation makes little sense if you do not honour this difference between Israel, and Hezbollah, or Hamas. Israel targets Hezbollah and Hamas and that infrastructure that supports it, and by doing so it accepts to eventually kill civilians. Hezbollah/Hamas intentionally target civilians, and provokes Palestinian civil deaths and even arranges them so that it can score in the propaganda war - a score that you will to give them. Think twice. It is not as easy as you try to make it appear. Let's not forget that Hamas for example was voted into power last time, and that Hezbiollah was accepted into power in Lebanon. It is antidemocratic to save the Palestinians from the choice a suffienct ammount of their voters has made - you can see it also this way. the freedom in democracy works both ways: the voted gain their legitimcay from the election, and the voters can be held responsible for the choice they made and who they voted for. enough of the palestinians wanted Hamas, and they got what they wanted. The lebanese allowed long enought the deployment and strengthening of Hezbollah, and what they got is the logical conseqeunce from that: they are no longer master in their house, but depend from Iran's "legion etranger".

[Skybird]

That's exactly the point, I'm well aware that civilian casualties were unavoidable, just like they were when the Lebanese army attacked the Fatah al Islam in that refugee camp.
Now, I repeat, how on earth would hezbollah hide weapons in christian downtowns of Beyrouth ? How would they hide rocket in crop fields ?

They did, and still do, and that is what counts. Christian militias in Lebanon, and the Druse people, are not as strong as they were in the 80s anymore. Lebanon cannot do anything against the will of Hezbollah, behind which stands the full support and massed strength of Iran.

Since when personnal land mines are authorized ? Again, this was not an appropriate response, but it's Israel so almost nobody dares raising voice except anti war Israelis and a few occidental newspapers.

In war you do not care so much for what ways of killing yourn enemy are authorized by somebody not being involved, and what not. Your only care in war should be to kill and to destroy and to win. Leave peace missions, police operations and teaching a lesson to the UN, it has long reputation of being militarily impotent - of the Israelis I would have expected something better, and much tougher. War is not nice, as Nancy Reaan once put it in understatement - but that'S the very nature of war, and the reason why it is not called "picnic in the park". Both the bad planning and bad preparation and - in the end - the lacking willingness to go all the way rewareded Israel a very hurting defeat that has a long rat-tail of negartive consequences for Israel. The most important one: they have lost their aura to be unbeatable. They will never be as feared again as before, and Hezbollah has demnstrated by what tactics and weapons types the Israeli army can be fought down and being brought to a halt. From now on, and with Hezbollah alöready being armed up with ATGMs again in larger quantities than before - the Israeli army is vulnerable.

[August]

Sure, you know I blame hezbollah for that "war" too, but shelling Beyrouth hundreds of km from the borders, and especially some christian parts of it is hardly an appropriate response to short range rockets. Dropping landmines in the countryside or bombing food factories neither. Everyone blamed hezbollah, that's ok, but when it comes to blame Israel for their illegal/immoral acts, there's no much voices to be heard.

There is no way to fight a war around a civilian population Mikhayl. There is no smart bomb smart enough to distinguish a fighter from a civilian and mistakes will happen like they do in any other human activity of comparable complexity and scale.

The Palestinians in particular use this fact of war to their advantage. Their whole strategy is to make people such as yourself think the Israelis are as bad as they are, so they seem less horrible by comparison. They don't just do this with the Isrealis either as the Lebanese Army and the folks in the city of Nahr al-Bared found out last year.

[Happy Times]

Hezbollah Envoy: War on Israel to Widen

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/24/ap/world/mainD8J2C23G6.shtml

Hezbollah's representative in Iran struck a defiant tone Monday, warning that his Islamic militant group plans to widen its attacks on Israel until "no place" is safe for Israelis.

Hossein Safiadeen also reinforced earlier threats by Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah to widen the scope of attacks, which have included unprecedented missile strikes deep into northern Israel.

"We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis. There will be no place they are safe," Safiadeen told a conference that included the Tehran-based representative of the Palestinian group Hamas and the ambassadors from Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinian Authority.

"You will see a new Middle East in the way of Hezbollah and Islam, not in the way of Rice and Israel."

"We will expand attacks," he said. "The people who came to Israel, (they) moved there to live, not to die. If we continue to attack, they will leave."

Israel claims Iran has supplied Hezbollah with long-range missiles, which have hit the port of Haifa and other places. Iran denies the charges but does not hide its high-level support for Hezbollah.

"This war will be remembered as the beginning of the end for Israel," Safiadeen said.

This is what started it.

[August]

I know that August, what I'm saying is that the response was out of proportion. Obviously, as sad as it is, civilian deaths couldn't have been avoided in south Lebanon. But there's been a lot of "useless" targets, no matter what Skybird's own truth. On a political note that war is even more a failure for Israel, they destroyed a huge part of what had taken about 10 years to rebuild for the Lebanese. And who is paying for the re-rebuilding ? Hezbollah, gaining maximum popularity among the population. With Syria trying & killing Lebanese christian or anti syrian muslim politicians one at a time, you can see where the country is slowly heading at this rate. Anyway, Lebanon is hopefully in no way comparable to "Palestine" or any other Arab country for that matter, and I do hope it won't ever be.

Don't be mistaken, I don't support Hamas nor Hezbollah in any way, and I know what they do :) I'm saying that politically Israel is making things worse for itself, and the US don't really help IMO. Since the US started to openly support Abbas, what happened ? Gaza totally fell to Hamas, and Abbas has no more influence on a possible peace in the region.

Yeah it's a sad thing alright. That's why i see no resolution to the problem until one side or the other is ejected totally from the area.

[August]

What, you want to "wipe some countries out of the map" ? :p

Actually i'd like them to live together in peace and harmony. Hold hands and dance around the campfire singing "Cumbayah" and "I want to teach the world to sing". :yep:

I just don't think that's what is going to happen though.

[Skybird]

Mikhayl, I would be interested to know what you understand to be "Skybird'S own truths", since what I say is not just my own reasoning, but has been reflected in essays and articles throughout all the international press. I also would like to know what you mean by Israel's reply being out of proportion when going to war after it's territories, settlement and citizens having been under constant missile shelling since years. what else must they get thrown at them before finally starting a war in an attempt to destroy the faction doing so would no longer being considered as a disproportionate response? If I threaten your family and randomly shoot at your house several times per day - would you act disproportionatly when starting to finally shoot back at me and trying to kill me? And if you cannot see me, starting to lob grenades at my position, destroying the cars behind which I hide, and turn into flames the buildings from whose windows I am shooting at you? Hardly. Once you start firing back to protect your family from me, you would do your best to strip me off any covber, any help, any support, any location where I could rest. If you would not do that, first you would be an idiot, and next you would be dead. ;)

[Happy Times]

What, you want to "wipe some countries out of the map" ? :p

Actually i'd like them to live together in peace and harmony. Hold hands and dance around the campfire singing "Cumbayah" and "I want to teach the world to sing". :yep:

I just don't think that's what is going to happen though.

You..dont..believe...in.....world peace?! :o

[caspofungin]

You call walking into a sleeping household and murdering Israeli infants in their beds or blowing up school busses with suicide bombs "transgressions"?!
no, i call it murder, just like killing 5 or 6 civilians in a rocket strike to kill 1 militant.

let me get this straight -- the israelis can do whatever they deem necessary to protect themselves, flout whatever international laws they like, and that's "just war." but the other side is supposed to line up in an orderly fashion in an open field and wait to get mown down? if you're fighting against an army that's better equipped, better trained, better in every respect, then what wouldn't you do to win?

Their whole strategy is to make people such as yourself think the Israelis are as bad as they are, so they seem less horrible by comparison.
that's the point -- in my opinion, the israeli defence force is as bad as any militant group. both sides are horrible, with no respect for innocent life.

the crux of the matter is, is a dead israeli civilian more of a tragedy than a dead palestinian civilian? if so, why?

[August]

You..dont..believe...in.....world peace?! :o

"World peace". I've read of that concept somewheres. Isn't that when one has destroyed all their enemies, scattered their flocks and heard the lamentations of their women? :p

[August]

then what wouldn't you do to win

Hide behind the skirts of my family. Use my children as shields and weapons.

that's the point -- in my opinion, the israeli defence force is as bad as any militant group. both sides are horrible, with no respect for innocent life.

It's useless to debate this with you if you can't see any difference between civilians caught in a cross fire and their deliberate targeting.

[Happy Times]

Skybird, lol, I said twice what is a "out of proportion response", if you don't read don't reply, and if you don't get it check the numbers ("bilan") of the war. By the way you seem to mistake Hamas for Hezbollah, Hezbollah didn't "shell" Israel for six years. Now tell me how many hundred or thousands of times Israel crossed the border and entered illegally in Lebanon ? And your "analogy" is pretty childish and irrelevant, it could be turned either way and it doesn't give any answer to the political issue I talked about.

I agree, they shelled longer than six years and are more dangerous than Hamas.:D
If the Lebanese goverment just stopped a private army from conducting terrorist strikes from its soil, maybe Israel wouldnt have to cross the border.

[Platapus]

All Israel wants in the middle east is peace

Piece of Jordan
Piece of Lebanon
Piece of Syria
Piece of Egypt
Piece of Palestine.
:o

[August]

All Israel wants in the middle east is peace

Piece of Jordan
Piece of Lebanon
Piece of Syria
Piece of Egypt
Piece of Palestine.
:o

http://www.targetofopportunity.com/jewish_occupation.gif

[caspofungin]

nice map, what's the point you're trying to make?

It's useless to debate this with you if you can't see any difference between civilians caught in a cross fire and their deliberate targeting.
there is a semantic difference. the civilians end up just as dead.

[Skybird]

Skybird, lol, I said twice what is a "out of proportion response", if you don't read don't reply, and if you don't get it check the numbers ("bilan") of the war. By the way you seem to mistake Hamas for Hezbollah, Hezbollah didn't "shell" Israel for six years. Now tell me how many hundred or thousands of times Israel crossed the border and entered illegally in Lebanon ? And your "analogy" is pretty childish and irrelevant, it could be turned either way and it doesn't give any answer to the political issue I talked about.
If you say so, Mikhail, it must be true. Don't worry, I will never waste your competent thinking again. Forgive that I wasted your precious time.

[mrbeast]

nice map, what's the point you're trying to make?

It's useless to debate this with you if you can't see any difference between civilians caught in a cross fire and their deliberate targeting.
there is a semantic difference. the civilians end up just as dead.

I think the point goes something like this:

'Look you Muslims have got all this land so why can't Israel have this little bit.........'

[Tchocky]

Skybird, lol, I said twice what is a "out of proportion response", if you don't read don't reply, and if you don't get it check the numbers ("bilan") of the war. By the way you seem to mistake Hamas for Hezbollah, Hezbollah didn't "shell" Israel for six years. Now tell me how many hundred or thousands of times Israel crossed the border and entered illegally in Lebanon ? And your "analogy" is pretty childish and irrelevant, it could be turned either way and it doesn't give any answer to the political issue I talked about. If you say so, Mikhail, it must be true. Don't worry, I will never waste your competent thinking again. Forgive that I wasted your precious time.
Seriously, the analogy was clumsy and a waste of time. It's not a case of a bad someone shooting at your good house and you lobbing grenades back.
You mentioned terroritiories and settlements, many of those settlements have been declared illegal by the UN, EU, and others. That adds a certain layer of complexity. You mentioned destroying cars and burning buildings. Add in the people who drive those cars and live in the buildings. Another layer of complexity. Especially when on one side of your story a family is being threatened/shot at, and on the other it is only buildings and cars.

[August]

there is a semantic difference. the civilians end up just as dead.

More than semantics. One can be reduced by improvements to technology and a better effort, the other can only be increased by those same things.

[Skybird]

Skybird, lol, I said twice what is a "out of proportion response", if you don't read don't reply, and if you don't get it check the numbers ("bilan") of the war. By the way you seem to mistake Hamas for Hezbollah, Hezbollah didn't "shell" Israel for six years. Now tell me how many hundred or thousands of times Israel crossed the border and entered illegally in Lebanon ? And your "analogy" is pretty childish and irrelevant, it could be turned either way and it doesn't give any answer to the political issue I talked about. If you say so, Mikhail, it must be true. Don't worry, I will never waste your competent thinking again. Forgive that I wasted your precious time.
Seriously, the analogy was clumsy and a waste of time. It's not a case of a bad someone shooting at your good house and you lobbing grenades back.
You mentioned terroritiories and settlements, many of those settlements have been declared illegal by the UN, EU, and others. That adds a certain layer of complexity. You mentioned destroying cars and burning buildings. Add in the people who drive those cars and live in the buildings. Another layer of complexity. Especially when on one side of your story a family is being threatened/shot at, and on the other it is only buildings and cars.
You accept Hezbollah and Hamas (both do like this) having choosen a battle psotion and tactic that by your remarks Israel either should not attack at all for it causes collateral damage that is wanted and hoped for by Hamas and Hezbollah, or that Israel attacks and accepting that it will cause that bcollateral damage. That way you already have ruled that Israel should accept to just suffer from constantly being attacked and should not even allow itself to feel angry about that and not not to become more unwilling to seek peaceful and fair solutions. I think you simply cannot imagine what it means to live in Israel and having to take into account every day you let your children go to school and leave them in the garden playing that you may not see them again, or a Katyusha knocking on the roof of your house at night, anytime, sometime, maybe - you do not know if and when. I am aware of the death ratio between Palestinians/Lebanese, and Israelis. But fact is that this wopuld not be discussed if Palestinians and Hezbollah would not try to kill Israeli civilians, without any discrimination, whereas the Israeli military tries to kill activists and in that process accepts to kill civilians if they are standing in the way. I realise that many people here do not take care of that difference at all, but I insist on it making a difference.

This one-sided bias of rejecting Israel any right to defend its citizens is something that really amazes me, except in case of France which has a tradition to oppose Israel as a massively US-supported entitity, and the US and France is like trying to mix oil and water. Only rarely I hear as massive criticism of the Palestinians or the Hezbollah when they shell Israel with their missiles (and aim for getting missiles that allow them to cover all the state of Israel, not just the border regions), as I hear the EU constantly complaining how bad Israel is for having dared to reach out agaunst Hezbollah or to interrupt Hamas supply lines, accepting bay that cut that civilian supply lines are cut as well. You cannot fight Hezbollah or Hamas withiut harming the civilian and Lebanse infrastructure as well - and that is an intended strategy of Hamas and Hezbollha.

What does it tell you that Hamas and Hezbollah try to maximize losses of their own people to score in the propaganda war?

For Israel, the issue simply is this: people will die anyway, so we better make sure it is their people dying instead of ours.

My pragmatic reasons why I accept the right of Israel to exist two generations after it was founded, I have explained often enough. It is purely pragmatic an argument of mine indeed: you cannot delete the existence of Israel today without repateing an injustice of the same scale as was accepted back then, when Israel was founded. Two generations. In the long run, I see the founding of Israel as a huge historic folly, but we cannot help it: that is two generations ago. Also I see Israel in a psoition, as a result of this foolish act, that makes it unlikely to surive in the long run: it is so exposed and vulnerable, that I cannot see how it should survive for centuries and centuries to come. the rulers of Jerusalem have changed many times in history, and it will change again. The big question mark is the Israeli and - sooner or later - Arab nukes, and wether europe will survive the Israeli downfall, or not. If Israel falls, it will try to get europe involved in a last desparate attempt, and as I just mentioned: we live in the age of availability of nukes. In the end there is no heart-felt smypathy between europe and israel. At best one pragmatically cooperates, and uses each other. I would not call that friendship. Private, personal contacts between ordinary men, is a different thing, but here I talk of political realities. I do not believe in freindship between states and nations in general. Not even Britain and the US. last time these two tried to dance, the one massively abused each other, dancing on the road towards the Iraq war.

Fact also is that Palestinians had been given refuge in Jordan, and thanked the Jordan leaders by trying to overthrow them. Fact also is that the Palestinians are not liked or trusted anywhere in the Arabb world. the Arab world also is not completely innocent: before the Jordan coup attempt, and before they learned why it is no good idea to trust these troublemakers at all, and immediately after the founding of Israel, they would have been in a position to easily allow some of their territories being used by the Palestinians to form a separate state again. they denied that completely.

Fact is that Palestinians are used by Arab policiy-makers for propaganda purposes only, but that the do not really care for them, and do not really like them at all - a sentiment that I have met during my tryvels in the ME time and again. Palestinians are seen as untrustworthy trouble-makers. Many Arabas do not like that they are even there. Also Arab natiojns have come to terms with Israel'S existence, understanding that it doesnot mean any risk and threat to their own regimes and internal powerpolitics. the Palestinian issue gets blown up and gets abused for propaganda purposes, yes, but it is not the major conflict in the region: that is the confrontation between Sunni Arabia and Shia Persian Iran. And that manifests itself in the confrontation between Israel and Hezbollah - and Arab states being surprisngly tame whenever Israel reaches out against Hezbollah.

Things are not what on the surface they seem to be in the Orient. Never trust your eyes at first glance. Always try to listen beyond the flowery language people in these countries love so much.

There was some action movie with Keanu reeves many years ago, I do not remember the title, but he played a cop who was asked what he would do if the bad boy would hide behind a hostage and it would be needed to assume that when confronting him and following his demand to put down the weapon, he would use the opportunity to kill both the hostage and the cop. In that movie, Reeves said he would shoot at the hostage and hurt the person at the leg so that he/she would fall down, exposing the bad boy, and then he would shoot at the uncovered bad boy and kill him. I know, it's an action movie (which did not impress me), but in principle it illustrates my own policy. I assume you would allow him to escape and hoping that he will not kill the hostage, and hoping to catch the perpetrator later. That is two hopes I do not accept to influence. My prioritiy is to gain control of the situation at all cost, as fast as possible. If that means to dmaage the hostage but safe her/his life, okay. Hopes and assumptions is not good enough for me. as we say in German, translated: "trust is good - control is better".

Beyond that, you mentioned what the UN and the EU declared on settlements. Honestly said, I do not even smile about these anymore. I simply refuse to take them into acount anymore. The EU and the UN, and simple reality - are two totally different things. For you they yeem to be a justification, or an argument. For me they are a reason to not distibute any energy for leaving a communication channel open. For you that must be somewhat shocking. But at least I am more open and predictable in my antipathy then many states who intrigate against or abuse the UN if it serves their interest, while making lip-confession how positive they feel about them. seen that way, you can consider me to be an improvement. So in short: I refuse the UN to be a legitimate argument anymore. to me, it is corrupted, infiltrated, abused and impotent beyond repair.

[caspofungin]

having lived in the middle east, i'm well aware of how the palestinians are viewed by the rest of the arab world. i know that their plight is being used for propoganda and to justify illegal and immoral acts elsewhere.

it's not as if i expect israel to sit back and do nothing when attacked, and i certainly don't expect the efforts of the palestinians will ever pay off as well as they hope.

my issue is the way the israeli policies are viewed as acceptable by the rest of the world. You state, "I think you simply cannot imagine what it means to live in Israel and having to take into account every day you let your children go to school and leave them in the garden playing that you may not see them again, or a Katyusha knocking on the roof of your house at night, anytime, sometime, maybe - you do not know if and when."

I have 2 points with this.

1. Does anyone ever think about the state the palestinians live in -- living in what are essentially ghettos, electricity and running water available for only a few hours each day, your right to go to work or school or hospital up to the whim of some 18yr old on his national service manning his checkpoint -- if he wants to **** you over, there's no appeal.

2. As I see it, the israelis are an occupying force -- what right do they have to live in peace and security when those that were there before don't have that same right? If the world says, "they're a conquered people, they have no rights," then that exposes the world community to charges of hypocrisy, and people should stop complaining about the rights of conquered people everywhere. If the palestinians do have some modicum of rights, then why aren't those rights being protected?

regarding not trusting the words of people in the middle east -- it goes for both sides. the israelis try to portray themselves as the innocent victims of the rabid palestinians, when they are just as guilty of waging indiscriminate terror.

@August
As to the deliberate targetting of civilians
One can be reduced by improvements to technology and a better effort the israelis don't seem to be making much effort. but even if we disregard air strikes as part of a legitimate defense policy, what about the collective punishment of the entire palestinian people? how can one possible think that treating them the way the israelis do is going to do anything other than breed even more resistance and desire to inflict destruction on those responsible? when people feel they have nothing to lose, what's the incentive for them to act peacefully? if one is targetted for the actions of another, why should one not imitate those actions if you're going to be punished anyway?

ps -- the movie was "speed"

[LtCmdrRat]

"The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives." -- Winston Churchill

1.You can't have a deal with islam radicals. Even if they call themselves a freedom fighter... Because for them all others are just infedels.
You can give them billions of dollars for peace and rebuilding the economy , and these billions will disappear in the pockets of their leaders or appear as explosive belts or rockets fireworks.
2.You can have an argue about which group has more rights on Palestine land, who is an occupant and who is abused innocent kid over there and it never ends. What was the first egg or chicken?
Carter IMHO is too old to see problem clearly.
3. There is a lot of groups like Hammas over there....
All our plans (like road map etc ) just make situation worser...
We try to make a deal with tiger thinking that it is just big cat.

[August]

@August
As to the deliberate targetting of civilians
One can be reduced by improvements to technology and a better effort the israelis don't seem to be making much effort. but even if we disregard air strikes as part of a legitimate defense policy, what about the collective punishment of the entire palestinian people? how can one possible think that treating them the way the israelis do is going to do anything other than breed even more resistance and desire to inflict destruction on those responsible? when people feel they have nothing to lose, what's the incentive for them to act peacefully? if one is targetted for the actions of another, why should one not imitate those actions if you're going to be punished anyway?

ps -- the movie was "speed"

I agree that the Israelis could do more but after 60 years of constant attack i'm also thinking they're displaying enormous restraint. Lets face it there are a lot of cultures in the world that, if they were put in Israels position, would have driven the Palestinians out of the area long ago.

BTW what is the movie reference about?

[Happy Times]

@August
As to the deliberate targetting of civilians
One can be reduced by improvements to technology and a better effort the israelis don't seem to be making much effort. but even if we disregard air strikes as part of a legitimate defense policy, what about the collective punishment of the entire palestinian people? how can one possible think that treating them the way the israelis do is going to do anything other than breed even more resistance and desire to inflict destruction on those responsible? when people feel they have nothing to lose, what's the incentive for them to act peacefully? if one is targetted for the actions of another, why should one not imitate those actions if you're going to be punished anyway?

ps -- the movie was "speed"

I agree that the Israelis could do more but after 60 years of constant attack i'm also thinking they're displaying enormous restraint. Lets face it there are a lot of cultures in the world that, if they were put in Israels position, would have driven the Palestinians out of the area long ago.

BTW what is the movie reference about?

x2
Wonder what would happen if the roles were changed, i bet most Jews in the area would be dead.

You skipped Skybirds long post.:rotfl:

[Skybird]

Caspofungin,

the Palestinians wasted several opportunities to live a better, peaceful, more comfortable life in their own land. It's not as if only Israel has done it's share to torpedoe any such outcome - as I see it, the Palestinians heavily contributed to that too, driven by a mtovation that says "all or nothing at all". I said that the way Israel was founded back then was anything but clever, but I also said that this is more than two generations ago and that reversing it would cause at least as much injustice and suffering again like it it was accepted with Israel'S foundings. In a few years, the old will have all died completely. And in just so near a future, there will be no Israelis anymore who contributed by his own deeds to the founding fo Israel, and the intial war. and in an as few years again there will be no more palistinian alive anymore who has exoreirnced a live in what formerly was known as Palestine. So, there will be nobody who can claim by his lifetime that "his" territory is occupied, and that he has claim for the country, nor is there anybody who can say that the Israelis has taken somerthign from him in the late 1940s. fact is that arab and Jews lived toigether in that region for centuries before, sometimes beign at war, sometimes not. The land belongs to nobody - the land belongs to everybody. Jiust an attitude of all or nothing at all, pacticed by both sides, practiced by the Palestinians too, has given rise to the unrest the modern era has seen.

Reason and pragmatism, after six decades, would have demanded to become realistic, and make the best of what has happened one man's life ago. but no, not with the Palestinians. And so they made one bad choice after the other, with instinct picked one bad ally after the other, by wishful thinking followed one bad policy after the other, and showing camera teams keys for houses in Israel that since decades do no longer exist. and all that time there was glorious babbling of how brotherly all islamic peopole feel and how mach the Arab world cares, while since the jordan coup it inf act did not only care anymore, but in fact hoped that Israel will keep the pressure up so that the Arabas must not deal with the Palestinians themselves. Nice company there, really - seen from no matter what side.

So, Palestinians had many chances to come to better terms with Israels, but it never was good enogzh for them. there is a saying: you reap like you have sown. In the long term, that will be true for Israel, as I described in my earlier reply. But it is also true for the Palestinians immidiate present as well. I could say the same about the Lebanese who since long time accepted withiut resistance Hezbollah infesting it's state and it's national structures. And nwhen there was war, they complain about being hit, as a side effect. There is another saying for that: fly with the crows, get shot with the crows.

If there would be no terrorism by Hamas anymore, Israel would find it so incredibly much tougher to evade any binding settlement with the Palestinians anymore. If hezbollah would not be in Lebanon, and people woudl resist the Syrians actively, Israel would have no need to occasionally slam it's fist onto Lebanese lands (which both in the 80s and two years ago in the long run was no success anyway). The Palestinians, since many years, could already live in peace and reasonable prosperity if only they wpould not have decided wrong so often, and would not be driven by hot emotions and illusions so completely.

that Syria and Iran interfere so massively, and that it all is an Arab-Persian (shia-sunni) confrontation anyway, does not make it any easier, of course.

But however, when terroists fire rockets and missiles by the thiousands inbto Israeli society, the state not only has a reason but also an obligation to protect it's citizens from that. The reaction shown maybe be competent or noptl., but the basic principle of justification for action is not affected by that. And if the only way to reach the enemy is through crashing through civilian infrasrtructure as well, so be it. It makes sense to destroy all bridges in Lebanon, when these bridges are used by Hezbollah to transport troops, weapons, and to quickly reloacte. It makes sense to bomb a shcool whwere hezbollah has stored a weapons bunker, fi these weapons allow it to shoot back. It makes sense to bomb a hospital, if Hezbollah has raised a communication centre or a HQ there. Becasue if you leave this locations untouched, you cannot fight Hezbollah - and that is why Hezbollah deliberately has choosen these sites. Where is your portest for that, caspofungin? and your protest for Hamas firing rockets not aiming at military taregts,m but civilian areas, hoping to kill civilians, the more spectacular, the better? where is your protest, I cannot hear you? And wherre is your protest for hezbollah enforcing local residents to stay in place so that many of them can get killed by Israeli attacks on Hezbollah positions, giving nice pictures in the global media?
After the Lebanon war, politicians in Spain and France were the first proclaiming their countries would deliver most modern european anti-aircraft-missiles to Lebanon, which means nothing else than delivering the most effectice wepaonry from europe to Hezbollah so that it can shoot at Israel when it tries to stop hezbollah terrorizing Israel. that is the same Hezbollah that today has more ATGMs of more modern age and of higher effectiveness than it had two years ago. This is nothing else than a european declaration of war against Israel. we could as well send european troops fighting with Hezbollah side by side against Israel - to me it makes no difference. And that was France before Sarkozy (who meanwhile wants to dleiver the most modern combat helicpoter in the world, the europpean tiger, to Lybia, in violation with treaties with germany that say that amrs projects to whom an objecting partner contributrs in hardware cannot be exported without acceptance by that partner - and Berlin has signalled srong oppostion to sarkozy's tete-a-tete with a mass murderer, terrorist and slaughterer. to be precise: Berlin was compketely shocked when learning about that french lunatics stunt).

Ah, the ME, a totally messed up a place, lacking both reason and innocence. In a way one could sum it up and say: everybody is getting what he deserves. My sympathies are limited. I am only interested in the consequences for Europe. Beyond that: all hell, if wanted - I do not care. One could say: poor children, the innocent young being suffering: but the bitter truth is the poor innocent sufverign chidlren of today are already object to hatefilled indoctrination, and in just some years will have turned into the weapon-holding fighters of not far away tomorrow.

[LtCmdrRat]

:up: Skybird!!!

[Skybird]

Hezbollah tactics were successful, that's why the kill ratios are like they are. The civilian deaths would have been far smaller in numbers, if Hezbollah would not use civilians as human shields, and would not arrange them to get killed in as high as possible numbers, children preferred, for that makes sympathies of the world go with the Hezbollah thugs, and turns them against Israel that is expected to sit still and not complain with thiusands of m issiles over the past 5 years raining down on it and raising a state of constant thread, and besieging.

No word of criticism from you guys, eh? Lebanon allowed Hezbollah in, and people did nothing when they came - until it was to late to try to do anything anymore, for the guest had taken over major parts of the house by too strong power. Today, it is a state wirthin the state, and nothing goes against it, not even the Lebanese military can keep up with them. Of course, the Lebanese have nothing to do with it and are not in any way responsible for what they decided in the past, and what kind of guests they accepted, and what kind of infiltration they did not try to resist when there still was a chance - how could I dare to mention that.

You make a wonderful applauding audience for the Hezbollah propaganda show, really. And you fall for their intended tricks.

Instead, feel free to tell us what Israel should do instead, to be no longer harmed by this enemy that has no origin in Palestine, is not to be satisfied by anything less than the destruction of Israel, intentionally targets civilians instead of trying to keep civilian deaths low and fight the military and is neither Lebanese nor Palestinian by origin, but Shia, and Iranian/Persian. Only the ending of Israel'S existence would be acceptable for Hezbollah - is that the solution you propagate? and when Israel is gone, the confrontation between sunni and shia still is there, and the rivalry between Saudi Arabia and Iran still will be fought. but that is not important. Israel has dared to try to defend itself, now that is the real scandal here, eh?

that they lost the war, is Israels responsibility, though, no doubt. Bad planning, bad preparation, and not enough determination. I turned against them and stopped my support for them when I realised how bad they were prepared. The next war against Hezbollah is just a question of time, and Israel needs to improve dramatically, else it will get mauled very badly next time. Guerilla tactics, powerful hightech weapons, knowledge of the landscape, a clear determination to destroy Israel, religious fanatism and a total abuse of the civilian population makes for an extremely dangerous and lethal enemy.

[August]

You skipped Skybirds long post.:rotfl:

Like i'd skip eating broccoli... :up:

[Skybird]

Thank you very much for another competent and contructive personal comment. You're building a real history in doing so, smartass. Only offering realistic, functioning alternatives regarding the issue of debate - that you do not.

[Skybird]

<p>1) You obviously didn't read my previous posts since you're still assuming wrong things that I made clear at least twice, and base your sermons on these false assumptions, &quot;constructive&quot; indeed.</p>
<p>2) Insulting people on a board is pathetic, talk about &quot;building a history&quot;.</p>
Your haughty behavior towards me here and in another thread just days ago is a fact. I read your posts, and find them extremely one-sided and biased. I read some of your comments at other opportunities were I did not answer to you, and again found them to be extremely one-sided and biased. You form a history, a record of being like this, indeed. I win the impression from your comments that killed and terrorized Jews in Israel are of little concern for you, only when these people dare to trying to put an end to that and kill those thugs haunting them - you become loud in cricism. Not of the perpetrators, but of the victims. While the Lebanon war did not achieve its strategic objectives and thus: was a defeat, you have no altermative to offer than just trying to drive Hezbollah away or destroy them by force. Extremely one-sided and biased indeed. Hate to say it, but so far I see you confirming every opinion there is on Franc ebeing an extrmeely anti-Israel and maybe even antisemite political actor. That France delivers weapons to terrorist organisations that try to kill Israelis, just falls in the right spot of the overall picture, then.

I am reacting to you as you give a picture of yourself here. If you do not like my reaction, be something different.

And instead of accusing others not reading your posts - better start reading others' posts in completeness yourself. And if you did, I must say the ammount to which you arbitrarily ignore and fade out everything you do not like, is stunning.

And now, play with yourself. Personal wars I have had more than enough in the past years. I dealt with you already much longer than you deserved.

[caspofungin]

Where is your portest for that, caspofungin? and your protest for Hamas firing rockets not aiming at military taregts,m but civilian areas, hoping to kill civilians, the more spectacular, the better? where is your protest, I cannot hear you? And wherre is your protest for hezbollah enforcing local residents to stay in place so that many of them can get killed by Israeli attacks on Hezbollah positions, giving nice pictures in the global media?

i've said many times on this thread and others, i find fault with both sides of the conflict, both sides are doing what they feel is necessary to win without thought of the suffering inflicted on people who, for the most part, just want to get on with their lives.

but i think a more important question, is where is the us protest? we hear plenty about the evil terrorists, but not a whisper to the israelis to show some restraint or to be less collective in their punishments. no one has any issues with innocent civilians being killed by american-supplied missiles and rockets fired from american -made jets and helicopters, or by american-made rifles?

Lebanon allowed Hezbollah in, and people did nothing when they came - until it was to late to try to do anything anymore, for the guest had taken over major parts of the house by too strong power. Today, it is a state wirthin the state, and nothing goes against it, not even the Lebanese military can keep up with them. Of course, the Lebanese have nothing to do with it and are not in any way responsible for what they decided in the past, and what kind of guests they accepted, and what kind of infiltration they did not try to resist when there still was a chance - how could I dare to mention that.

i think that's a very simplistic view of the relationship between hizbollah and the lebanese government. hizbollah was formed in the turmoil of the lebanese civil war, where by definition the government has no control. due to its civil activities, it enjoys local popular support, as well as support from iran and syria. tell me, what exactly could lebanon have done to stop the formation of hizbollah, or to throw them out afterwards?

If there would be no terrorism by Hamas anymore, Israel would find it so incredibly much tougher to evade any binding settlement with the Palestinians anymore.

this would never happen. israeli treatment of palestinians in refugee camps and at checkpoints is pretty poor regardless of the level of violence -- with every ceasefire we've seen so far, the lot of the palestinians has improved only marginally, until some hothead breaks the ceasefire and the israelis strike back, and again, everyone pays. it's really a quite cunning game the israelis play -- they do whatever they like, keep the pressure on, and only have to show a little patience before they have an event to retrospectively excuse their behaviour. also, they hold the palestinian authority responsible for security while at the same time hamstringing its ability to deliver that security.

the israelis have no qualms about breaking international agreements using their standard self-defence excuse, what makes you think they would ever honor an agreement with the palestinians?

You make a wonderful applauding audience for the Hezbollah propaganda show, really. And you fall for their intended tricks.

really, the size of this audience is dwarfed by the size of the audience that israeli propoganda has reaped.

That France delivers weapons to terrorist organisations that try to kill Israelis, just falls in the right spot of the overall picture, then.

Some british lord once said, "nations don't have friends, they have interests." don't forget that france sold israel weapons in the past, too. and they're selling it to the lebanese government, not to hizbollah.

I see you confirming every opinion there is on France being an extrmeely anti-Israel and maybe even antisemite political actor.

please, don't equate being anti-israeli with being anti-semitic -- its the last-ditch bs generalization i'd expect from avon lady, perhaps, but not from you.

the Palestinians wasted several opportunities to live a better, peaceful, more comfortable life in their own land.

I couldn't agree with you more, and i'm impressed by your optimism. we'll see, i guess.

[Skybird]

i've said many times on this thread and others, i find fault with both sides of the conflict, both sides are doing what they feel is necessary to win without thought of the suffering inflicted on people who, for the most part, just want to get on with their lives.

But still there is a difference between intentionally firing into a civilian target and hoping to maximize civilian losses, and firing after military targets, planning a strike evntually to minimize civilian losses - but not being willing to let the vaöid targhet live becasue are civilians are near. For you, it seems to be the same. For me, it is not. Considering the duration of terror against Israel, I thinkt hey act with remarkable self-restraint most of the time. again, I am aware of the kill ratios between Palestinians and Israelis. but fact is that the IDF would not need to retaliate or kill activists if these would not open fire time and again, anbd from the middle of civilian crwods and building which they both use as human shields. This tactic of human shields is what separates the better ones from the bad ones. Ignoring all moral implications, it is an effective tactics though, militarily. An enemy killing the human shield to hit the rral taregts, loses. And if he does not launch action not to kill the shield, he loses again, and his target can keep on firing at him without getting punished or hindered.


but i think a more important question, is where is the us protest? we hear plenty about the evil terrorists, but not a whisper to the israelis to show some restraint or to be less collective in their punishments. no one has any issues with innocent civilians being killed by american-supplied missiles and rockets fired from american -made jets and helicopters, or by american-made rifles?

First, the extreme bias of the US in ME policies is simpy a historical fact. The US are no honest broker in the ME region, and never were. You, or me, can like it or not - it remains to be fact.

second, "collective punishement", one needs to look close here. Much of what you may see as being just that, I probably would see as attempts to discourage further generations of young to join the active fighters of the Palestinians, for example that a suicide assassin causes his family to see their houses flattened by bulldozers. And since it were this family raising the suicide assassin all to often, and often is noit only sad, but alos proud, I cannot crfitizise the Israelis to apoproach the problem by this attempt of holding the family responsible for what kind of attitudes they try to rise in their next generation. There may be exceptions from this rule, but I see it as a rule indeed that suicide assassins do not come from nowhere, and usually become what they are with knowledge and acceptance of their families. I also cannot argue against the Israelis stoopping to supply a hostile people that allows Israel to be constantly attacked and terrorised from within it'S middle. That they switch these blockades on and of and on and off, I see as inconsistent. To cut supply of money, fuel, ammo, wepaons to Hamas, you necessarily will need to stop supplying the Palestinians in their two territories as well. the Palestinians are free to judge that they do not want to live like this any longer, hand over the Palstinians terroists and weapons, and receive needed aid in return. It is only a question of who is being stronger. so far, Israel, as said, is inconsistent - and this has lead to decades of misery without end.

what i better: terror without end, or and end with terror? As I said, for pourely pragmatism I defend the right of Israel to exist, beyond that I am neither a close friend nor an enemy to it. and in the current conflict, the people who by life experience have any claims against Israel, are slowly but surely dying out. And only after at least another two or three generations have lived and died on both sides without a confrontation between both sides, there is a chance that eventually a peace will emerge from this: when nobody lives anymore who has any claims aginst the other in territory or property. but then those traditionalists who prefer to live in the past of their ancestors will be needed to be kept in check.

If there ever would be a seize-firing, and a future of relative peace - life in that time will be the most difficult for the old ones who still remember from their own life. not before they have all died and their memories with them, there is a chance for peace.

But that is probbaly too plenty of "ifs" and "whens". But it illustrates the timetables in which I think: generations, and centuries.

i think that's a very simplistic view of the relationship between hizbollah and the lebanese government. hizbollah was formed in the turmoil of the lebanese civil war, where by definition the government has no control. due to its civil activities, it enjoys local popular support, as well as support from iran and syria. tell me, what exactly could lebanon have done to stop the formation of hizbollah, or to throw them out afterwards?
Partially that is true, partially not, becaused the time of clahsing miltias in Lebanon, the 80s, are over, and since then the iranian influence was drastically, constantly being boosted by Teheran, and Syria playing it's own game as well. I see some windows of opportunities since after the 80s, where the Lebanese had fair chnaces to get rid of them or at least to keep in in check - but as I see it, they did not even try, were satisfied with a short moment of relative peave in the present momnent - and did not care for the future and what would come of the choices they made earlier.

People, individually and collectively, are always very fast to say that they could not do anything, and that it was not their responsibility, and that they had no choices. on the indiovidual level, as teacher and psychologist, I found this to be wroing almost always. People almost always have choices - but their are consequences as well, and the majority of these being unwanted makes people say: "I had no choice". but the choice nevertheless has been there. and in history, I see that to be true very often, too. Totally non-cultural, you can call it karma, if you want: cause and effect. And so, all what Lebanon did and did not, tried and tried not, wished and wished not, had consequences, and it has lead them to where they are. That is no question of sympathy or antipathy, hate or tolerance, friendly mindset and good heart: it just is how it is. Life, and the world, knows no morals. we can wish that it would be adifferent, but it doesn't matter. Only what is, can be the basis on which to improve life or the Palestinian or Lebanese situation. and a precondition for that is that they fight agaiunst the violence from within their own rows, and stop to behave like terrorists. If they behavelike terroists, they legitimiatly get labeled as terroists, and legitimitaly get treated like that.

I would like to compare it to the Tibet problem. Initially, after the chinese invasion, they was militantresitence raising, and even being financed by the CIA until the 70s. Even brothers of the Dalai Lama were involved in this. The dalai Lama nevertheless never authporized this kind of violent resistence. After a loinger while he realsised, that the independeance of Tibet had ended and was unliekly to be acchieved anymore. He then decided that it was no longer improtant wether the invasion was legitimate or was a barbaric act of aggression and injustice. From that moment on, he chnaged for the sake of being realiostic, and tried to improve tibetan'S situation and everyday-life by no congronting but working with China, and not calling for independenca but for being bound into china and stay there, but getting local autonomy only. and to be fair - it worked to some degree, becasue most basic questions of evberyday life for Tibetans found improvement indeed. The Tibet conflict is something that Palestinians and Israelis should learn from: the Palestinians should learn what they should do - acting like the Dalai Lama, and the Israelis should learn what to do NOT: acting like china. realism on both sides is needed - and no calls for all-or-nothing-at-all.

this would never happen. israeli treatment of palestinians in refugee camps and at checkpoints is pretty poor regardless of the level of violence -- with every ceasefire we've seen so far, the lot of the palestinians has improved only marginally, until some hothead breaks the ceasefire and the israelis strike back, and again, everyone pays. it's really a quite cunning game the israelis play -- they do whatever they like, keep the pressure on, and only have to show a little patience before they have an event to retrospectively excuse their behaviour. also, they hold the palestinian authority responsible for security while at the same time hamstringing its ability to deliver that security.

and who can accuse the Israelis to behave lime that? You said it yourself, with every seize-fire they have learnt over the past decades that it was just a question of time until the hotheads, as you call them, open fire again, and that any seizefire was not worth the paper it was written on. And you are wondering why they are so disgusted and angry, and maybe even treat Palestinians arrogantly at border controls etc. ? I would saY: that is no wonder. If my neighbour would behzave to me like the palestinians, I wouldn't like him either.

the israelis have no qualms about breaking international agreements using their standard self-defence excuse, what makes you think they would ever honor an agreement with the palestinians?

If there would be no more terror from Palestinians, international pressure would mount constantly on them now to play by the rules, too. i cannot see them being the only one braking rules. they do, with their settlement policies, but aginst that stands imo more opportunities where Palestinains broke seize-firings which they had used to regroup and resupply, or whatever. If you demand the Israelis to honiur agreements, you must demand them form the Palestinians as well - and they brake these on more occaisons, imo, becasue they play by the rule of all-or-nothing-at-all. At least a dominant majority of them.

really, the size of this audience is dwarfed by the size of the audience that israeli propoganda has reaped.

Is it? I hear mostly anti-Israel paroles from europe, whewreas the terror against Israel - often with the greatest naturalness - gets downplayed or even not mentioned at all. whenever suicide attackers crossed a border and killed a family at night, or blew up a bus: a thereelined report in the news, a reminder on Israel to react with caution and not to exaggerate it, better: don't do anything at all and do not brake what is not existing anyway: this illusion of the dialogue. but when Israel fires a hellfire that kills the minds behind that attack in their car or houses, there is a loud yelling to be heared in many Western medias. And if Israel builds a wall (the most clever and effective thing they did in a long while, and this says me who has lived inside the Berlin wall for ten years), they are told that is imoral, and they have no right to do that, and how shabby it is. But it has saved lives, many lives so far, and it has kept many assassins out.

Some british lord once said, "nations don't have friends, they have interests." don't forget that france sold israel weapons in the past, too. and they're selling it to the lebanese government, not to hizbollah.
that makes no difference. The Lebanese army today is inferior to the Hezbollah, and the Lebanese goivernment cannot act without approval by Hezbollah. whatever you deiver to the lebanese: hezbollah takes it'S share of it, and that is not a small one. I know somebody who knows these things by profession and from the inside. In weapons deals he says: 40% for Hezbollah - at least. I know that guy personally, and have reason to trust him.

Please, don't equate being anti-israeli with being anti-semitic -- its the last-ditch bs generalization i'd expect from avon lady, perhaps, but not from you.

I'm sorry to say that anbtisemitism is increasing, in Germany, in France, in the easten european countries, and it often combines with a sentiment of anti-Israel, too. the Arab world enjoys more sympathy in europe today, then Israel. And in the medias, it seems to me the anti-Israeli voices are much louder and greater in numbers, than those lining up with it.


the Palestinians wasted several opportunities to live a better, peaceful, more comfortable life in their own land.

I couldn't agree with you more, and i'm impressed by your optimism. we'll see, i guess.
What optimism? I am convinced that there will be no peaceful settlement in the ME for hundreds of years to come - not as long as no totally superior power takes control of the place and is beyond any doubt strong enough to force both sides to comply with brute force, and penalise them without mercy, if needed. Violence will be the only thing to work down there for generations to come. And since this will let more hate and disgust sink into people's minds on both sides - go figure. what still is called the holy land - in fact is a place of doom. One probably should annihilate Jerusalem completely, and all holy places of all religions there are - they only have caused madness, and bloodshed, on and on and on and on. No change in sight.

We simply disagree on many issues, let's face it. But nice that talking was possible witout things turning personally, as often on issues liike this, so thank you for that. But from here on, I cannot see this conversation leading anywhere else.

[Skybird]

One last post, since I just stumbled over these articles by chance while reading something different:

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2007/08/analysis_hezbol.php

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2007/02/hezbollah_amass_1.php

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fisk/hizbollah-turns-to-iran-for-new-weapons-to-wage-war-on-israel-805763.html

http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2370093

Hezbollah receives missiles of higher range as well, by which it can shell Israel from north of ther Litani river, like with the Katyushas that it has used by the thousands at closer ranges. A new round will be fought for sure. I do not take it for granted that Israel will win this time. Also, all Lebanon could be turned into a battlezone this time. Wether or not the Israeli Air Force remains effecient, remains to be seen. If Israel's Air force is substantially denied air rule, Israel's ground war hardly will be successful.

[Skybird]

Intel gathering and air control of Hezbollah activities on the ground by which it raises a heavily armed and secretly fortified defensive line and prepares firing positions for their new ground missiles by which they can strike farther into Israel from farther away, I suppose. ;)

that they do not get shot as, is no surprise. You do not give away your aces too early - and certainly not before the next war. The less Israel learns about them, the more a bad surprise they will turn out to be.

And since when has the UN in the area any credibility? they report their sightings of Israeli movements and maneuvers via radio to their important headquarter where these are importantly counted in important lists - and do not give a damn that their radios get overheared by Hezbollah and that they provide Hezbollah with intel data on Israeli activities that way.

Only Hezbollah agents sneaking into Israel and illegally crossing the border - this UNIFIL usually does not report via radio, and does not tell the Israeli. Strange.

Today alone (speaking of wednesday) 9 missiles impacted in an Israeli village, hurting several people. Everday news, every day missiles impact somwehre in Israel. Where is the protest? Where is the outcry? where is the condemnation of the assassins intentionally trying to kill civilians?

[Skybird]

Most missiles landing in Israel these days are Hamas terror strikes indeed, but I tend to not separate Hamas and Hezbollah too much. They have the same goal, they copy each other'S schemes and tactics, they both conduct terror indiscriminately, and Hamas gets delivered the same sophisticated missiles now than Hezbollah.

In expectation of the next Israeli attack being a much greater effort on the gorund, Hezbollah has given up poisitions south of the itani, but focusses on fortification-building North of it - and that includes allmost all of the north. Since they use human shields, that includes major settlements like Beiruth, also major part of their weapon supplies get smuggled via land traffic, and from the north. that why the IAF wants to keep an eye on it. In the end, the northern Lebanon will be the next battlefield, with the south being given up by Hezbollah, and the Unifil-area simply being ignored and overrun. Before Israel goes north, they will make sure that military pressure against Unifil is rising by a few close and well-placed threatening grenades, so that they cannot report Israeli ground movements to Hezbollah anymore. minor stories like this already happened the last time - and still the UN back then did not understand that it was actively engaged in supporting Hezbollah combat actions.

that Hezbollah was able to read radio comms in the past, is pretty much confirmed. Even more so since UN observers very often radioed uncoded reports. Hezbollah also has gotten plenty of ATGMs of more modern versions than those it used in the last Lebanon war. And back then they already were in possession of stuff like Milan, and Russian made latest versions of RGP7, the latest of these can crack any tank open if only knowing how to best use them. This is again no speculation, it is pretty much confirmed.

and Lebanese sovereiognity - that's just a word on paper. They are not master in their own house, and cannot control Hezbollah, as clashes in the past also have showed. Whatever gets delivered to Lebanon: Hezbollah gets it'S share of it. This one should remember when sending medicine, oil and money to Lebanon. Deliveri ng weapons, like Spain and France said after the last war, is the most stupid thing one can do, Hezbollah is said to get at least 40% of these.

All in all I would say the Israelis are very well advised in case of douibts not to respect soverei9gnity of Lebanon, but to go there and have a look by themselves. Unifil will does not much more than sitting where it is - and that'S it. The area where they sit is abandoned by Hezbollah since long, they moved north of the Litani, as already said. One could say that Unifil is of almost zero use. and if a new war is there, we have some thousand european troops sitting between the fronts, not respected by anyone, and serving as sitting ducks at best. Last time Hezbollah used UN positions to find firing positions there and hoping to prevent the Israelis to fire back. and when Israel refused to be passive, their was a public outcry. Not because Hezbollah abused UN positions - but Israel shooting at Hezbollah near UN positions.

[Skybird]

Yeah, but Hamas and Hezbollah don't operate in the same country, and these countries have a totally different population, government and situation, that makes quite a difference, political situation of Hezbollah isn't that of Hamas.

I know that, but since here is talked of on combat, terror and tactics, the two are not so different in these regards. After the last war Hamas saw how successful Hezbollah was with its tactcis and weapons choice, and has started to heavily copy the Hezbollah model.

As for north Lebanon being the next battlefield, that sounds like sci-fi to me judging by the struggle of Israel army in the south in 2006.

If you think that Israel can afford to live endless times long with a rattlesnake and a scorpion in its bed, I think you are wrong. Just short time ago I just have said that I take an Israeli victory in the next clash with Hezbollah as anything than granbted, but chances are that sooner or later they have no other choice than to at least try it. they will be better prerpared next time, no doubt, but so is Hezbollah. And if Israel does not decide it cannot afford to just watching how Hezbollah bcomes grater and greater a thread - then sooner or later Hezbollah will start to attack Israel again. It is their nature and self-definition to do so, so it is just a question of time.

Hezbollah has turned out to be an extrmeely dangerous enemy, and Hamas is chnaging its face, too. the siotuation would be defined as an asymmetrical war, but an asymmetrical war in which the "inferior" side has huge stocks of armour-braking hightech weapons and tank-killing capabilities, and already has demonstrated that it can strike at navy units with success, and now is found by observers to have gotten the wepaons to really have an effect in trying to neutralise Israeli air dominance. Add to this their use of guerilla tactics, their implementation of undicriminatory terror, and religiously motivated fanatism, and you have plenty of reasons to conclude that they do not depend to keep this ceize-fire forever.

that Israel performed so poorly last time, will cost them dearly next time, and in the forseeable future with it later conflicts. they have shown how they can be beaten - and that was a lethal mistake. Next time they MUST destroy Hezbollah in the region - no matter the cost. In other words: next time it will become extremely nasty, or Israel will suffer another - this time strategically crushing - defeat. If I were living in Lebanon, I would flee it, no matter where to go. The place is doomed.

[Skybird]

Major parts of Beirut fell to Hezbollah after recent fighting, conflict widening:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7391600.stm

not too bad for a militia standing up against a "popular and reliable institution". Maybe that is becasue a great share of weapüons delivered to Lebanon end up not with the army, but in the hands of Hezbollah?!

And must I take something special from reading that unlimited civil war can only be avoided when - the nation's own army remains "neutral"? Which translates into trust being low that it can really defeat Hezbollah, else the threat of civil war could be kept low - by force (which I would consider to be the job of a nation's army).

[Skybird]

Nasrallah keeps out of violence. And I am the emperor of China.

[Skybird]

Trying to take over a government 8since long) and gain control - what else is that if not open violence towards people and government?! ;) Hezbollah never has hidden that it wants to turn Lebanon into a Shia theocracy, and an attack basis against Israel.

[Skybird]

they dont have the numbers? Maybe that is why they have infiltrated the government, education sector (like Hamas did) and are able to split their share from every delivery to the army. some say and estimate it to be up to 40%.

Man you have nerves to say as long as there is no open violence in the streets you are not overly concerned! that would be just the final stage of escalation - do you realise that...? what you say is: I am not concerned as long as it is not too late, and no other path could be tried.

Well, so be it, I cant help it. I just gave an update link to what already again is going on down there. And Iran is supporting, orchestrating and paying for it. This is - by far - not just an internal powerstruggle in Lebanon.

[Skybird]

...So far nasrallah kept out of violence...
--->
Read : open violence toward lebanon population/government.
--->
... By open violence I meant it to the word, as long as they just tryed to take over with their fake political party BS I don't really mind (well actually I do, but not that much), they just don't have the numbers to do it. ...

...Trying to take over a government [since long) and gain control - what else is that if not open violence towards people and government?!...
--->
... they dont have the numbers? Maybe that is why they have infiltrated the government, education sector (like Hamas did) and are able to split their share from every delivery to the army. some say and estimate it to be up to 40%. Man you have nerves to say as long as there is no open violence in the streets you are not overly concerned! ...


And please don't tell me what I'm saying, especially if it's not what I'm actually saying, tsst.

:huh:...!?

Good luck to your friend though. He would be well-advised to get out there, if he can. since his country is just a playball of stronger powers, every investement he makes there will be one investement in vein. I stick to it: Lebanon is doomed, the shining, comfortable past is gone and will never come back.

[Skybird]

I see. I still read that in invisible ink written in that sentence. But okay, I understand you claim you meant something different.

Just don't know how that interpretation could be avoided, but maybe that's me.

[Skybird]

The comedy, as you call it, and the Saudi, egypt and Israeli views clearly support my own argument: this is, like the Palestinian question as well, not so much an issue regarding the existence of Israel, but a new round in the century-old confrontation between sunnis and shias. that'S why I see Iran having to accept the lion's share of responsibility. Syria wants influence only for suporting it's own agenda: reversing the penalty for being the agressor in the last war with Israel by being given back the Golan.

That's like Germany demanding back Eastern Prussia.