View Full Version : Try to explain this!
October 1944,North Atlantic,Type VIIC41.
I am in pursue of a convoy, instead a task force comes into view. I dive. I am in perfect position to torpedo the bogue class escort carrier. It sinks! The destroyers come after me and despite the damages i manage to finally slip away after almost 2 hours.
It was then when my sonarman reported contacts: port side, 270deg, convoy closing. What happens now is that the destroyers start pinging me! I was at 200meters running at silent mode, speed 2 knots but still, it wasn't enough for crying out loud!:x
Jesus! I had to face 3 destroyers and had no luck against those hedgehogs...
I know that GWX adds historical "weight" to SH3 and that it restores its realism level to its maximum but (i) the apparent ability of the destroyers to find a Uboat despite how deep it lies and (ii) the laser-guided hedgehog depth charges seem to be extra-ordinary aspects for me(at least for the time being).
Yes! I have read the manual: "Try to avoid task forces... Crew too experienced..."
"... if you simply lie in front of a convoy destroyers will find you..."
So, here we go. How realistic is for the destroyers being able to find a Uboat at 200meters when it is moving at 2 knots? Was this possible (and not probable) at that time?
Were the depth charges so accurate?
I don't know but staying alive after attacking a task force and being discovered by the convoys' escort destroyers despite the high stealth measures is too much for a veteran commander like my Kapitanleutnant...:stare:
I am just trying to understand how GWX works.
Nevertheless.............. LOCK AND LOLL & SINK'EM ALL:rock:
If they really were hedgehogs then it must be later on in the war, right? I never make it that far so I can't offer any advice
:dead:
I think hedgehogs were the ones that formed a ring in the air after their launch. This is what i see through the event camera very often since the beginning of 1944.
Hey!
Correct me if i'm wrong but I think those 2kts is enough for the escorts to be able to hear you, I don't know how that deep depth should affect their ability to hear you in real life, but in sh3?
I think 0-1kts at around 50 rpm is the only way to be on the safe side when there is escorts coming at you.
How far away were the destroyers when they found you?
About the hedgehogs, I think they should be pretty accurate about your position, but when it comes to the depth of the target I do not know how accurate destroyers were during the time being.
Does anyone know how destroyers calculated a uboat's depth??
/Bracer
Madox58
04-11-08, 07:53 PM
October 1944,North Atlantic,Type VIIC41.
I am in pursue of a convoy, instead a task force comes into view. I dive. I am in perfect position to torpedo the bogue class escort carrier. It sinks! The destroyers come after me and despite the damages i manage to finally slip away after almost 2 hours.
It was then when my sonarman reported contacts: port side, 270deg, convoy closing. What happens now is that the destroyers start pinging me! I was at 200meters running at silent mode, speed 2 knots but still, it wasn't enough for crying out loud!:x
Jesus! I had to face 3 destroyers and had no luck against those hedgehogs...
I know that GWX adds historical "weight" to SH3 and that it restores its realism level to its maximum but (i) the apparent ability of the destroyers to find a Uboat despite how deep it lies and (ii) the laser-guided hedgehog depth charges seem to be extra-ordinary aspects for me(at least for the time being).
Yes! I have read the manual: "Try to avoid task forces... Crew too experienced..."
"... if you simply lie in front of a convoy destroyers will find you..."
So, here we go. How realistic is for the destroyers being able to find a Uboat at 200meters when it is moving at 2 knots? Was this possible (and not probable) at that time?
Were the depth charges so accurate?
I don't know but staying alive after attacking a task force and being discovered by the convoys' escort destroyers despite the high stealth measures is too much for a veteran commander like my Kapitanleutnant...:stare:
I am just trying to understand how GWX works.
Nevertheless.............. LOCK AND LOLL & SINK'EM ALL:rock:
Many Good Men in Real Life faced things We can only imagine.
GWX tries to implement that 'unknown' factor.
We can read all the Books,
research all the website,
interview actual veterens.
But it does not change several basic facts.
Those who died can't tell us why,
memories are not totally reliable,
and those who write a book tend to fog the facts or just don't remember
events exactly.
You expect to survive.
So did the real crews.
Check the ratio for those who came home
compaired to those who are on Eternal Patrol.
You get another chance.
They did not.
October 1944,North Atlantic,Type VIIC41.
I am in pursue of a convoy, instead a task force comes into view. I dive. I am in perfect position to torpedo the bogue class escort carrier. It sinks! The destroyers come after me and despite the damages i manage to finally slip away after almost 2 hours.
It was then when my sonarman reported contacts: port side, 270deg, convoy closing. What happens now is that the destroyers start pinging me! I was at 200meters running at silent mode, speed 2 knots but still, it wasn't enough for crying out loud!:x
Jesus! I had to face 3 destroyers and had no luck against those hedgehogs...
I know that GWX adds historical "weight" to SH3 and that it restores its realism level to its maximum but (i) the apparent ability of the destroyers to find a Uboat despite how deep it lies and (ii) the laser-guided hedgehog depth charges seem to be extra-ordinary aspects for me(at least for the time being).
Yes! I have read the manual: "Try to avoid task forces... Crew too experienced..."
"... if you simply lie in front of a convoy destroyers will find you..."
So, here we go. How realistic is for the destroyers being able to find a Uboat at 200meters when it is moving at 2 knots? Was this possible (and not probable) at that time?
Were the depth charges so accurate?
I don't know but staying alive after attacking a task force and being discovered by the convoys' escort destroyers despite the high stealth measures is too much for a veteran commander like my Kapitanleutnant...:stare:
I am just trying to understand how GWX works.
Nevertheless.............. LOCK AND LOLL & SINK'EM ALL:rock:
Many Good Men in Real Life faced things We can only imagine.
GWX tries to implement that 'unknown' factor.
We can read all the Books,
research all the website,
interview actual veterens.
But it does not change several basic facts.
Those who died can't tell us why,
memories are not totally reliable,
and those who write a book tend to fog the facts or just don't remember
events exactly.
You expect to survive.
So did the real crews.
Check the ratio for those who came home
compaired to those who are on Eternal Patrol.
You get another chance.
They did not.
Maybe i was misunderstood. I am not trying to critisize GWX. As i said i am just trying to understand how GWX works. That's all.;)
bracer: If i remember correctly it was less than 2km.
Madox58
04-11-08, 08:17 PM
I understand your views.
And I should have also stated:
The SH3 Game Engine only allows so much sway, shall we call it?
Several problems with the AI.
AI should be defined as Actually Ignorent.
To many routines to control a REAL AI are missing.
How many ships, in RL, could SEE through land?
How many actually tried cutting a land mass in half?
And on and on.
Not all the reactions you see in SH3 are GWX related!
[quote=privateer
Not all the reactions you see in SH3 are GWX related![/quote]
Thanks. Now i begin to understand!:smug:
I think 0-1kts at around 50 rpm is the only way to be on the safe side when there is escorts coming at you.
As far as I know you are silent if you keep it under 100RPM. And GW set it so when you go to silent running it puts you so you are under 100RPM.
The problem is that below 150meters the Uboat can't hold its depth when moving with less than 2 knots.
I think 2knots is 500 rounds per min.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377
If you haven't read this sticky thread by Ducimus then give it a minute.
It's really good and informing!
And according to that info and if it is based on real life they should realisticly have a small chance of hearing you in the situation you were in: three destroyers closing in from your port side scaning the area infront of the convoj, they are probably alerted since you sunk a carrier two hours earlier in the nearby area and you running at 200 metres around 100rpms and exposing your port side to the sonar.
Sounds realistic enough IMHO for a guy with small knowledge about ASW.
/Bracer
I think 0-1kts at around 50 rpm is the only way to be on the safe side when there is escorts coming at you.
As far as I know you are silent if you keep it under 100RPM. And GW set it so when you go to silent running it puts you so you are under 100RPM.
I'm pretty sure that you need to be closer 50rpm to stay silent enough to avoid the escorts, I think so both because of experiences in SH3 and that I've read it somewhere. I always go to helmsmans view and set the speed with the speed dial and check that the rpms get as close to 50 as possible....
Thanks!:up:
I will also try to keep in mind what privateer said: "AI : Actually Ignorent"
I think 0-1kts at around 50 rpm is the only way to be on the safe side when there is escorts coming at you. As far as I know you are silent if you keep it under 100RPM. And GW set it so when you go to silent running it puts you so you are under 100RPM.
I'm pretty sure that you need to be closer 50rpm to stay silent enough to avoid the escorts, I think so both because of experiences in SH3 and that I've read it somewhere. I always go to helmsmans view and set the speed with the speed dial and check that the rpms get as close to 50 as possible....
Yeah. 50rpm means that you are silent. I have to remember that.
But if i set "rig for silent running" wouldn't GW set the rpm to 50?
IIRC "silent running" in GWX sets it at 2kts at ca 100rpm... You have to slow it down further manually with the speed dial....
Of course I can't swear that the difference you get in game by reducing rpms to 50 from 100 is a matter of life and death!!
But I do believe so :arrgh!:
Sink em all...
About the hedgehogs, I think they should be pretty accurate about your position, but when it comes to the depth of the target I do not know how accurate destroyers were during the time being.
Does anyone know how destroyers calculated a uboat's depth??
Just read at uboat.net that hegdehogs have impact detonators which explain there accuracy even though you were at 200 meters depth!
/Bracer
Yep, they hit either the boat or the seabed. They also had no depth set.
Phaedrus
04-11-08, 09:32 PM
The extensive manual that comes with GWX explains in detail about how the sonar works, as well as the in game AI.
Appendix C I believe.
As far as " did it really happen that way ? " ... in the later years only 2 of every 10 boats that left port was expected to return.
Keep in mind that your U-boat is 251 feet long (IX boats; VII is slightly smaller, IXD2 slightly larger).
Thats 83 yards long.
Its a 1178 ton steel cylinder almost as long as a football field suspended near the surface in well over 4000 feet of water.
It is, therefore, a bit of an anomaly in the undersea world.
So, would it be possible for a mid-war, late-war Asdic (sonar) to detect your boat?
Most definitely.
Try to present the smallest profile possible to an approaching destroyers Asdic....
... and if you value your boat and crew, I would also suggest you heed the advice given, and stay away from task forces.
Those "task forces" historically had a different name:
Hunter-Killer Groups.
Which means they are bad news.
Besides, even if you torpedoed all 4 destroyers and the escort carrier, it would still be worth less tonnage than two good sized merchants, or three medium sized merchants.
As far as I know, GWX is not designed for shoot-em-up style gameplay.
If you wish to engage in that style, expect to be disappointed, you will die early and often.
The repetitive deaths will probably prove more frustrating / boring for you than for the AI sprites doing the hedge-hogging and depth charging.
danurve
04-11-08, 10:26 PM
The problem is that below 150meters the Uboat can't hold its depth when moving with less than 2 knots.
I think 2knots is 500 rounds per min.
May depend on the boat and condition but even in good health 50 rpms is about 1 knot. Easy enough to set but not easy to control at depth.
"D" is set planes for normal dive. I can't help but wonder what the boat at depth would would be like with a reverse of this control.
Subject
04-12-08, 03:14 AM
October 1944,North Atlantic,Type VIIC41....
...So, here we go. How realistic is for the destroyers being able to find a Uboat at 200meters when it is moving at 2 knots? Was this possible (and not probable) at that time?
Were the depth charges so accurate?
October 1944?
GWX AI is "under-über" compared to reality that late in the war...
You may find some useful info here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=134471
Consider yourself lucky!
At least you lost your boat to a Hunter Killer group - my best boat ever was lost to two Flower Class Corvettes in dec. 1944 :roll:
In RL it was common practise for convoy escorts to alternate between pinging and listening with passive sensors periodically. This means they were always alert particularly late war.
In GWX and SH3 DD's only ping if they are alerted to a uboat's presence. It does not mean that they heard you but that they were alerted to your presence. Perhaps sinking the carrier they were escorting tipped them off.:hmm:
Escorts also will sit "silent" waiting for you to make a wrong move and call their friends back into the fray when they think they have something. LAtewar the sensors are fairly hard to avoid being picked up on at any depth or speed, with the exception of >300m at which point the sensors lose you.
I would have said that your experience was fairly "realistic" within the confines of what is possible to replicate in SH3. I base this comment on several years of research, talking to WWII submariners about their experiences, reading, watching both movies and documentaries on the subject of submarine warfare in WWII. Fortunately I am not old enough to have personal experience of the subject matter.
Certainly based on the testing I've been doing for the past year or so with GWX your experience is not something I would consider extraordinary, regardeless of how frustrating it is when something like that happens.
I think 0-1kts at around 50 rpm is the only way to be on the safe side when there is escorts coming at you. As far as I know you are silent if you keep it under 100RPM. And GW set it so when you go to silent running it puts you so you are under 100RPM.
I'm pretty sure that you need to be closer 50rpm to stay silent enough to avoid the escorts, I think so both because of experiences in SH3 and that I've read it somewhere. I always go to helmsmans view and set the speed with the speed dial and check that the rpms get as close to 50 as possible....
Yeah. 50rpm means that you are silent. I have to remember that.
But if i set "rig for silent running" wouldn't GW set the rpm to 50?
I haven't found this to be true. Even when set for silent, I have to reduce speed manually to at or below 1 knot to remain silent. If you lose depth set dive planes or speed up during detonations. Very small rudder turns also.
Whether they can hear you or not is something in the game files. What I said about 100RPM I got from the guys who did Grey Wolves. Maybe something's changed since they said it, or I misunderstood, but I'm gonna trust what they say about files they've had their hands in rather than what you think seems to be the case.
It was a couple of releases ago but I remember that under 100RPM was silent and that's why they set Silent Running to be just below 100RPM.
Remember, in 1944, they don't need to hear you to find you. In about a dozen convoy attacks with GWX2.0 I've not been detected once moving at 100RPM.
Not once. I'm pretty sure that's the limit. But you know, do it how you want.
Jimbuna
04-12-08, 09:07 AM
I'm just relieved you get another chance if your destroyed.....In RL they didn't http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif
Catfish
04-12-08, 09:20 AM
Hello,
it seems possible in 1944, ASDIC was refined, the crews had had time to learn and get experience. And without a thermal layer the ping echoes will show your boat on the screens in real life. I do not think they heard you at that depth, pressure eliminates all kind of cavitation and background noise even if you were running at 3-4 knots. Did you do a silent run ? If not hearing you would have as well been no problem if you think of tools smashing against the hull.
Problem was most probably they knew you were somewhere in the vicinity, you were too deep to evade the sonar cone, and you presented your broadside.
Greetings,
Catfish
Kpt. Lehmann
04-12-08, 09:53 AM
My response to AI matters:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=836146&postcount=275
Now that my mind is clearer i can see things clearer too.
First of all, thanks for your support guys. I hoped that i would survive the war and to be honest my tonnage had fallen dramatically after autumn 1943. I had many encounters with patroling destroyers and convoys were difficult to approach. But this time i've had it, the result is allready known to you.
To Catfish: Yes, i was running at silent mode.
Now, TarJak reveals a whole new perspective to me with his reply! "... will ping you if they are alerted to your presence... they don't have to hear you to do so..." Can you explain this a little bit more? Do you mean that since an escort carrier was sunk then the destroyers had a good reason to "keep an eye open?" In this case , i should be more cautious next time.
Secondly, "...destroyers sitting silent and waiting for you to make a wrong move...". Well, this is very challenging! I hope they do that in GWX 2.0 though i haven't noticed anything like it yet.
My opinion is that i exposed my port side to the enemy sonar for some time and with the Hunter-Killer destroyers looking for me... i was PROVOCATIVE:yep: but i could not go faster guys. "Too much risk", this was my thought.
Kpt Lehmann, i would also add: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377
bracer posted the link at a previous post of his at this thread.
All in all, i am very happy that i had a "fairly realistic" experience as TarJak said.
This means that GWX simply rocks!!!!!!
Still, sonar detection and AI sonar are very interesting matters. I am sure more questions will be brought up...
Nevertheless, LOCK AND LOLL & SINK 'EM ALL.:rock:
Now, TarJak reveals a whole new perspective to me with his reply! "... will ping you if they are alerted to your presence... they don't have to hear you to do so..." Can you explain this a little bit more? Do you mean that since an escort carrier was sunk then the destroyers had a good reason to "keep an eye open?"
The ping sound from the destroyers sonar is heard in the uboat even though the "sound beam" doesn't hit you're boat. So you can hear the destroyers search for uboats with their sonar, but when you hear the destroyer go from longrange to shortrange sonar (shorter time in between the pings) then you can be sure that they have found something, most sertainly your uboat. Time for pain in other words....
This is an interesting articel if you would like to read more about this stuff:
http://www.uboat.net/allies/technical/asdic.htm
I would also like an answer on how long the escorts in the area stay "alerted" in SH3 after you've sunk something?
This means that GWX simply rocks!!!!!!
Still, sonar detection and AI sonar are very interesting matters. I am sure more questions will be brought up...
Couldn't agree more to both of these statements!!
There is lots of people playing GWX on this forum that should try to revert back to stock SH3 and fresh up their memory of how the AI sucked in stock! Then they will most certainly stop bugging the GWX crew for their work! GWX has certainly brought life to the AI within the limits of the SH3 engine!
GWX does simply rock!
/Bracer
Thanks for the link.:up:
According to my experience after a torpedo impact the destroyers will stay for less than an hour if they haven't managed to make contact (that is around 40min). If they make contact but lose it for some reason then, it will be certainly an hour. 1944 and onwards they might stay longer but i can't be more exact. I remember a destroyer pinging me for over an hour after i attacked a small convoy. This destroyer was its only defense (!) and was desperate to kill me. I had to go to periscope depth and launch a T IV torpedo.
What troubles me is the behaviour of the armed trawlers (the flower class ones). It stayed long after the destroyers had left and despite the fact that it had no more depth charges it kept pinging me. It wouldn't go! I had to surface the boat and attack with the deck gun. My watch officer was killed.:nope:
Question. How many depth charges a destroyer could carry on average?
P.S. Next time i will be ready. I'll have the "Knocking on Heavens Door" by Bob Dylan playing when the "Abandon Career" screen appears!
Keep pinging! :rock:
danlisa
04-12-08, 02:27 PM
How many depth charges a destroyer could carry on average?
Start counting from the first explosion and stop when they do.:arrgh!:
I think somewhere between 100-200 but that figure is completely optional depending on what the carrying ship wanted to remove in exchange for the DC's.
Start counting from the first explosion and stop when they do.:arrgh!:
:rotfl:
Never crossed my mind(!)
Phaedrus
04-12-08, 02:37 PM
In GWX I think they carry a little bit more than the realistic amounts, depending on the classes.
Flower Class corvettes carried 80.
River Class frigates carried 150.
Tribal Class carried between 100 - 160 depending on the nationality.
Hunt Class carried 40.
But just because it didn't go away, doesn't mean it's not realistic.
DC attacks by escorts could last well over 12 hours... or more.
In Iron Coffins, Werner mentions an attack lasting 35 hours.
Depending on the location of the attack, if the rest of the DD's had to move back to the convoy. A single ship would stay and await the arrival of a dedicated Hunter-Killer group that did not have a convoy to look after.
Many U-boats were lost not to depth-charging, but instead to surface action or scuttling after the U-boat crew's oxygen / CO2 levels reached an unsustainable state, or mental and physical fatigue took their toll and forced them to blow tanks and surface.
But just because it didn't go away, doesn't mean it's not realistic.
Of course not.
bigboywooly
04-12-08, 03:05 PM
Not totally sure on the amount of DC a DD carries but a rough figure is 20 per DC device
Late war escorts notably Frigates are your worst nightmare
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_038-2.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_039-1.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_040-1.jpg
predavolk
04-12-08, 09:38 PM
Rather than throw in a blanket "The AI is supposed to be tough!" and "At least it's not real life!", I'll give you some of my limited advice.
1- What was the surface condition? That can play a major role in your success. I prefer attacking convoys in medium seas. Heavy seas are OK for quick in and out surface attacks, but that's risky (probably suicidal after radar). Calm seas are nasty in making their sonar much more effective. Consider that when you attack a well-guarded group.
2- If they have you, don't be afraid to use speed and turns to your advantage. It takes a fair bit of time for charges or bombs to fall 200M, and you can evade them if you like. A "cheat" method of sorts is to use the observation scope to watch for boats above you. I've used it in shallow med waters to simulate reality, and to teach me when/how to turn to avoid charges. I'd recommend trying it to familiarize yourself with the noises destroyers make relative to their position to your boat in an attack run.
3- If you're late in the war, I can't give any experienced advice, but I would assume that you should be using decoys if at all possible, plus acoustic torps, as defense against pesky destroyers. If acoustic torps aren't available, I'd suggest long-range shots with pattern torpedoes to give yourself enough time and room to get the hell out of dodge before your torps hit.
4- Do NOT stick around waiting to watch your torps hit. You get credit for the kill if you're within 40km I've heard. Certainly creeping away at 2 kts, you should be able to be close enough to get credit for sinking the ship even if you're not there watching it. As soon as you fire, get the hell out of dodge.
I don't know how much of this you're doing already, but it is possible for boats to pick you up at 200M in WW2, and against a team of them, you're in seriously, seriously bad shape. Against a well-trained group of 3 surface ships, in the later part of the war, I'd say the realistic odds of survival would have to be less than 1 in 10. Maybe 1 in 100.
Now, TarJak reveals a whole new perspective to me with his reply! "... will ping you if they are alerted to your presence... they don't have to hear you to do so..." Can you explain this a little bit more? Do you mean that since an escort carrier was sunk then the destroyers had a good reason to "keep an eye open?" In this case , i should be more cautious next time.That is precisely what I mean. When you sink a ship the escorts get alerted and are usually active in looking for what sunk one of their charges.
Even if they appear to go away from your position for a while they can still pick you up if you make a wrong move. They will ping if they suspect they have a contact but may not be pinging you. Bracer is spot on with his description.
Secondly, "...destroyers sitting silent and waiting for you to make a wrong move...". Well, this is very challenging! I hope they do that in GWX 2.0 though i haven't noticed anything like it yet.:yep: They certainly do that in GWX2.0. And it's meant to be challenging.:arrgh!: Late war is all about survival not about making easy kills. After 1943 you need to change your tactics or end up sunk. Stealth becomes your means of survival and steering clear of TF's or strongly defended convoys and going after the rare loners or unescorted small convoys is the only chance of making any real tonnage.
All in all, i am very happy that i had a "fairly realistic" experience as TarJak said.
This means that GWX simply rocks!!!!!!
Still, sonar detection and AI sonar are very interesting matters. I am sure more questions will be brought up...
Nevertheless, LOCK AND LOLL & SINK 'EM ALL.:rock: Good to see you are enjoying the GWXperience.... Can you survive the Xperience?
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa54/TarJak/GWXPropganda21-1.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa54/TarJak/GWXPropganda43.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa54/TarJak/GWXPropganda21-1.jpg
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Now I won't dare to start GWX again for sure............
That's indeed a scary picture..........
predavlok, i am aware of the 4 points you mentioned but it is still very very hard with three destroyers above you.:roll: As you also said, the chances of surviving this nightmare are decreasing exponentially...
Since you asked for the sea conditions as far as i can remember the sea was calm enough.
Tarjak, thanks for explaining your previous answer.
bracer, the poster scares me too:huh:.
Now, since i don't want to create false impressions i have to make some corrections to my own previous statements. Here we go.
When i started this thread in my first post wrote:"...the laser-guided hedgehog depth charges... extra-ordinary aspects..."
I had another look on appendix C (GWX manual) as some people suggested.
The GWX team states c l e a r l y the following: "The integration of sonar to the weapons fire control system of the destroyers enabled them to aim their fire where they had previously "guestimated"."
Although i recall having read these lines i don't recall recalling them when i should have done so.
In conclusion, since the Allies have all the tecnological advantages as the war progresses, we should try to evolve and adapt our tactics accordingly amd maybe we might survive the Xperience!:rock:
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