What can SHV learn from SHIII?

[GoldenRivet]

Im sure for many of us this topic has been discussed at great length, but you can never have too many ideas... after all, out of 100 ideas for the next generation of a specific game are observed only about 1/4 of them will be implemented to any respectable degree.

SH3 captured our attention because it saught to do things that no other subsim had been able to do before; most notably IMHO the 3D interior and the interactive crew. not to mention the leap in enviromnental apsects of SH3.

Check out a few of the things floating around my mind... and then submit your own :up:

here goes: (LONG LIST)

1.Overhauled environmental system like you would expect in a top brand flight simulator
a.Weather systems are no longer “global”. Storms can be seen building from many miles away, and the storm moves slowly from place to place and even dissipates.
b.On clear days with isolated storms, the sub can be hidden within the storm from the prying eyes of aircraft and surface ships which you commence repairs or other surface activities.
c.More weather besides just rain, now snow and dense translucent fog forms.
d.Ice can form on the U-boat in northern latitudes; crews must spend several minutes chipping off the ice in order to use deck guns or AA guns.
e.Variable cloud layers, low stratus clouds drift on the wind, cumulus clouds hang high on relatively clear days, and cirrus clouds sit high above at 30,000 feet. Each of these cloud layers can conceal enemy aircraft, and each cloud type appears with the appropriate weather conditions.
f.The world upon which you fight is truly spherical; latitude and longitude match that of real world maps.


2.A living U-boat
a.Crew men fill every compartment
b.Micromanage your crew, or delegate certain tasks to officers.
c.Shift rotation, every eight hours crewmen change shifts and can be seen climbing up and down ladders, and moving from compartment to compartment.
d.Every inch of the u-boat is re-created in detail from the bow tubes to the stern tubes and everything in between.
e.Complex external stores loading process must be timed and often prevents diving or moving the sub… the process is animated from start to finish!

3.Completely overhauled crew / boat management system
a.Before each mission, torpedoes must be loaded, munitions stored and even food and water stowed aboard the u-boat, all of this is done within a virtual 3D first person sub pen where workers can be seen repairing and overhauling your sub and completing various tasks.
b.Pack enough food for 10 days 20 days 60 days or 90 days, food stores run low, the more you pack the more food you see on the u-boat… as time goes on the food begins to disappear.
c.You can manage each member of your crew or place an officer in charge of handling a specific situation. For example: if an internal torpedo storage rack is empty, upon surfacing in a non combat situation your weapons officer will ask if he can load the external torpedoes.

4.A living war, a living world
a.In the sky above you and the sea all around you the war rages on.
b.Cruise the North Sea in 1942, 1943, 1944 and 1945 and see the contrails of the bomber stream high above at 20,000 feet heading to and from Germany.
c.AI u-boats depart sub pens with their own set of orders. You may encounter them at sea and you may not. You may stumble across a destroyer depth charging a friend in the distance or you may not.
d.U-boats and available surface ships within a reasonable distance of your position respond to your radio reports and attempt to assist you.
e.Pinpoint your position by homing in on English, French, German, Canadian and American radio programs
f.Use caution when sailing on the surface! Enemy submarines can launch a devastating torpedo attack against you when you least suspect it!
g.Crippled ships launch flares and send distress signals which can be intercepted by your radio operator to aid in identification of the ship which was attacked.
h.A complete roster of historic ship types and ship names is updated every time you start a mission. Sink the hood in 1939? It will never be seen again for the remainder of the campaign!

5.Dynamic BdU
a.As tactical situations change, so do your orders.
b.Send a contact report after sighting a convoy and BdU will automatically “know” if other u-boats are within your area, if so you may get a radio message telling you to “broadcast homing beacon and await the arrival of other boats before attacking”.
c.Send and receive weather reports to and from BdU and other U-boats and surface ships, need to escape a storm? Clear weather may be in the next grid square but you will never know unless you ask!

6.Dynamic Navigation
a.The submarine symbol on your map is an estimate based on time speed and distance; your real position must be determined by use of the sextant. Another duty you may delegate to your navigator or accomplish yourself, once your position is “refreshed” the estimate of your position degrades over time.
b.Home in on other submarine homing beacons or on shore based radio stations to assist in navigation.

7.Working historic replica of the Enigma cipher machine
a.Option for Radio messages from Headquarters are transmitted in encrypted text which must be deciphered by the enigma.
b.Delegate this process to your radio operator or master this skill yourself. Messages could take 2 minutes or 10 minutes to decode depending on length and importance. But be aware… some messages from BdU are “Captain’s Eyes Only” and can only be deciphered by you.

8.Dynamic Shore Leave
a.Be a home body and stay on base, or go with a few crew members to the French bars and restaurants where you can learn of new strategy and scuttlebutt in a virtual 3D first person environment.
b.3D first person walk through Sub pens, offices, and barracks, are the locations where you will go to change settings or outfit your sub… the 3D interface replaces the 2D interface of SH3

9.Victims and survivors
a.Men leap overboard from ships while they sink, some men burning leap into the water.
b.Life boats begin to be manned and lowered as a sign that the ship is sinking… no more arbitrary “She’s going down” message.
c.Bodies float in the water with various other debris like boxes, barrels, life boats, and life rings, survivors swim to and cling to debris.
d.Your own wounded men receive a prognosis from the medic to include chances of recovery or an estimate of number of days left to live. Make the call to continue on in hope for the best or elect to abort the patrol and hurry back to base to save his life.

[Elmer Kosterman]

Wolfpacks are a must.

I'd like to interact with enemy merchant ships a little more. Maybe have the option of boarding them, allowing lifeboats to set early in the war, trying to find out the names of ships that you've sunk. Possibly being able to fish enemy pilots out of the sea.

I think it would be cool to direct the u-boat war, step into Dönitz's shoes. One could decide how many boats to send and where. Adapt the strategy based on war reports. Decide which boats to manufacture. Decide which rules of war to follow.

Otherwise, I think all the essentials are already in the game. Sure it'd be cool to chack out the engine rooms, but after that I probably wouldn't have reason to go back in there.

[Platapus]

Those are all pretty good suggestions, but I think they would add a few hundred gigabytes to the game. Once you walk through the sub pens 10 times would you really go back for the 11th?

I have the same issues with the harbours in SH3. I really wish that SH3 had the option of starting the mission out of port like you can in SH4.

My biggest gripe about SH4 is the interface. The SH3 interface seems so much smoother and intuitive. For me, everything seems to take longer using the SH4 interface.

As to your specific recommendations

- Environment - Yes some of these would be nice, but in my opinion, none of these is really necessary. I would rather put the gigabytes into more functionality inside the sub.

- Living U-boat - Having all 44+ crew members animated will take up a lot of processing power. I really don't need the forward torpedo room animated unless I can interact with the software.

I do agree with the crew rotation. What they do in SH4 seems like a much better and more realistic system

I also agree with your opinions concerning the external torpedoes. For one, we should not be able to load G7e torpedoes in the external storage tubes.

- Boat management - The loading of foodstuffs is eye candy and I don't want it to delay my starting my mission and playing the game. Once I see the food loading animation 10 times I don't want to sit through it the 11th.

I do agree that food rationing could be a factor in crew moral and that could add something into the game.

One of the biggest changes they need to make in boat management is getting the watch officer off his butt when we surface. It is so nice in SH4 to surface and not worry about sobering up the watch officer and getting him out of bed.

- Living world - I like the idea of AI controlled Subs even if they are not incorporated in wolf packs.

Being able to navigate by intercepting radio stations is very interesting indeed. I always wondered why we had a radio room where we an interact with, but can't do much.

Speaking of radio, I wish there was some way to use the radio operator to interpret the incoming radio messages and only let me, the Kaluen, know when there is an important message. I hate getting interupted by radio spam!!:damn: It does not add to the immersion it adds to the frustration.

- Dynamic BDU and Nav - Totally agree. This is some of the stuff we want to see in a simulation. Personally I can do without the fancy weather graphics if I can get more of this.

- Working enigma - that would be cool. As long as I don't have to take the time to decode every single stupid radio message (that's why I have radio crews)

It might be nice if the radio operator could try to decode other messages or give me the com externals.

- Dynamics shore leave - frankly I could do with out this.

-Victims - Always a touchy subject. How much gore do you put in a game? How much gore do you put in a game where you kill British and Americans? A little crew animations would be nice, but I don't need floating dead bodies.

I do agree with using the sub's medic for something other than ballast. Perhaps even have a burial at sea ceremony so we don't have Fritz stinking up the after torpedo room.

Some really good ideas, some eye candy. Good list :up:

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

i agree about the victims though, i always hated it to just sink the ship and go to the next :shifty:
in RL they aided the survivors, but in SH3 you cant even see em... i also would like to see survivors on the U-boat itselve (Laconia incident ;))

[Zajcev]

I wish somebody started an open source sub game like this. Then you would get all the features you ever imagined, but on the other hand, WW2 sub sim market would be dead. Therefore its unlikely any company will release source code that could be reused.

[DeepIron]

I wish somebody started an open source sub game like this. Well, the operative word here is "wish"... I've participated in OS game development, and for the most part, it sucks... Usually, things start out grand and then taper off until one or two developers are all that's left. There are some noticeable exceptions, VegaStrike comes to mind, Stellarium and Celestia, but in the long run most of these projects fizzle out. People come and go, code get hard to manage without a suffcient framework, promises are made and not followed through, there can be personal conflicts, etc.

In short: It takes a LOT of committment to see something like this through to any level of success. Most people are in love with the IDEA, but like any relationship, some of the realities are not so pleasant.

I've seriously considered starting such an initiative and developing an OS-based subsim like "Danger from the Deep" has started. (Which BTW, isn't a bad bit of source code to start with though it's got its share of bugs...)

But again, it's really hard to find people who will CONTRIBUTE real resources to the project, and not just "Well, THIS would be cool to do..."

[Wilcke]

Yes its tough to figure what these publishers will do in the long run. I am thinking that depending on how the SHIV Uboat Addon sells may have some bearing on future offerings. If you can have a couple of devs churn out new content to an already established sim then you can still make money and you are drawing new folks into the genre.

Then again I could be full of "you know what" with this theory. Also, If you are thinking you are going to get all "the bells and whistles", then a $40 price point is unrealistic.

Case in point is Steel Beasts, the title sells for $125.00 this buys you the sim a dongle for copy protection. Rather neat as you can install it on 100 plus PC's but you cannot play unless you get the dongle.

This also buys you endless support and ongoing patches and new content. The only reason the developer can do this is because the program is sold to military organizations world wide in a customized form and sold to the Tread Heads/Armor Grognards as an aside.

I would go with a Steel Beasts type of setup myself, but there has to be a way to sell a ton of units and have a dedicated team that can stick around and that takes bucks!

Anyway, happy hunting!

[FIREWALL]

I think all the ideas posted are great. I want to be clear on that.

But it ain't gonna happen.

Add-ons are the way of the present future for SH series IMHO.

More Buck for less Boom for UBI's pocket. Thats Bussiness.

Sadly the Devs don't run Ubisoft.

[Graf Paper]

For all its drawbacks, open source would be the only way to create a subsim that implements everything the community could want, within reason.

When the "bottom line" is your driving reason for creating a game, well, much gets sacrificed to get the product out the door and generating revenue ASAP.

On the other hand, the management and paychecks are great motivators to programmers and content creators to get the job done.

A full-blown sim that would be so detailed as to hold the lofty title of "artificial reality" would likely demand far too much to run smoothly on even the most modern desktop computers.

Things like weather effects, food rationing, and making the radio a truly useful tool would be a welcome addition and could be done without adding too much demand to resources.

The external torpedo loading, provisioning the u-boat, and many other full 3D animations could be done away with or made as optional cut scenes for the sake of efficiency.

Goodness knows there's enough resources available to learn all this but it would take years to have a nearly completed work even with devoting several hours each day to the task as if it were a full-time, paying job.

The time involved is why many prefer just modding existing commercial games. Even something as ambitious as GWX requires less effort than creating a sub sim from scratch, although it would not be much of a leap to take the assets made for GWX and apply them to an open-source engine, such as Crystal Space, then scripting modules and coding libraries for the A.I. and game-specific features.

[GoldenRivet]

Those are all pretty good suggestions, but I think they would add a few hundred gigabytes to the game. Once you walk through the sub pens 10 times would you really go back for the 11th?

Thats an excellent point, the game file size would be massive, at least three or four times the size of SH3, but IMHO... worth every KB. I guess to relieve some of the bordeom that could be developed by visiting the sub pen repeatedly is that each base could have a little bit different office or sub pen or barracks and the bars differ slightly from one another. Maps would actually be failry small, as opposed to a sprawling submarine base... just small sections to explore.

I have the same issues with the harbours in SH3. I really wish that SH3 had the option of starting the mission out of port like you can in SH4.

Very good point! Personally i like exiting the harbor sometimes... but when you run into a port that requires a lot of twisting and turning and your TC can never get above 4X... that would definately help!

My biggest gripe about SH4 is the interface. The SH3 interface seems so much smoother and intuitive. For me, everything seems to take longer using the SH4 interface.

I think the next subsim could learn a great deal from OLC's GUI mod... WOW!

- Environment - Yes some of these would be nice, but in my opinion, none of these is really necessary. I would rather put the gigabytes into more functionality inside the sub.

I had initially thought this very same thing, but i was watching battle 360 the other day on history channel, and there was a scene where the U.S.S. Enterprise was crusing on a fairly clear day with isolated rain showers... the Enterprise evaded an approaching enemy force by steering the task force into a small storm hding them from view! i thought man wouldnt that be a great tactic for transiting a noutouriously aircraft infested region in Silent Hunter

- Living U-boat - Having all 44+ crew members animated will take up a lot of processing power. I really don't need the forward torpedo room animated unless I can interact with the software.

I suppose this section of the game could be optional? i do know there are a lot of people out there who want the entire interior of the sub and its crew modeled.

I do agree with the crew rotation. What they do in SH4 seems like a much better and more realistic system

SH4 crew rotation was a vast improvement

I also agree with your opinions concerning the external torpedoes. For one, we should not be able to load G7e torpedoes in the external storage tubes.

Also if i recall correctly there came a time in later years when commanders elected to not even carry external stores... we dont yet have that option.

- Boat management - The loading of foodstuffs is eye candy and I don't want it to delay my starting my mission and playing the game. Once I see the food loading animation 10 times I don't want to sit through it the 11th.

Your probably right here... i remember how 688i used to have a list that would pop up that would tell you how many eggs, loafs of bread, cans of milk, etc. were loaded onto the sub... you would dismiss the message by signing your name or just clicking the "X" IIRC... was a neat immersive feature, but i think if you had to do it yourself it would be OLD in a hurry... perhaps something more simple like assembling the men on deck and the CE would tell you all provisions loaded and the boat is ready for sea? i dont know

I do agree that food rationing could be a factor in crew moral and that could add something into the game.

And water... i read of accounts of contaminated water forcing boats back to base

One of the biggest changes they need to make in boat management is getting the watch officer off his butt when we surface. It is so nice in SH4 to surface and not worry about sobering up the watch officer and getting him out of bed.

probably the most annoying crew managment aspect in SH3 IMHO

Being able to navigate by intercepting radio stations is very interesting indeed. I always wondered why we had a radio room where we an interact with, but can't do much.

I have read accounts of boats using their radio direction finder to triangulate their position by listening to American and British Radio Stations on particularly long stretches of poor weather which prevented celestial nav methods. it would be neat if this was included.

Speaking of radio, I wish there was some way to use the radio operator to interpret the incoming radio messages and only let me, the Kaluen, know when there is an important message. I hate getting interupted by radio spam!!:damn: It does not add to the immersion it adds to the frustration.

Yes and No... while it is frustrating sometimes to have the game interrupted it would be great to receive a message that was "Captain eyes only" once in a while... all other messages could be retained on a clip board type interface and await your reveiw at a time when you feel like it.

- Working enigma - that would be cool. As long as I don't have to take the time to decode every single stupid radio message (that's why I have radio crews)

yeah... they decode autonomously.... the only messages requiring you to physically decode would be "Captain eyes only messages" but these would generally be concise, and there would really be few of them in the campaign.

-Victims - Always a touchy subject. How much gore do you put in a game? How much gore do you put in a game where you kill British and Americans? A little crew animations would be nice, but I don't need floating dead bodies.

your right to an extent i guess... but the way i look at it, the human element is the largest element in war, and should therefore weigh heavily in any historically accurate war sim. perhaps in the options menu there could be a "gore" option as we have seen in many games.

I do agree with using the sub's medic for something other than ballast. Perhaps even have a burial at sea ceremony so we don't have Fritz stinking up the after torpedo room.

Absolutely, im particularly partial to the idea of clicking on a wounded sailor and a pop up says "This man should fully recover within a matter of days" or something more grim like "This man is mortally wounded, and will probably die within the next 3 days unless we get him to a hospital" the call is yours of course... if you let him die crew morale takes a nose dive, but if you rush back to base before the "deadline" crew morale takes a huge jump. i think this could really add to the game

Some really good ideas, some eye candy. Good list :up:

Thanks... and i appreciate all of the comments so far!

[Steel_Tomb]

Its let the Ubi suits know that they can pay for 50% of the game to be made and then let you wonderful modders do the rest!!!

Its a shame I can't really say anything else, a very sad thing but I feel I'm right... look what happened with SHIV!

[Graf Paper]

Sad but true.

Pretty much every game company takes for granted that a mod community will expand and finish the game for them. All they have to do for support issues is release patches to the game engine these days.

It's outsourcing of the worst kind.

[Platapus]

"Absolutely, im particularly partial to the idea of clicking on a wounded sailor and a pop up says "This man should fully recover within a matter of days" or something more grim like "This man is mortally wounded, and will probably die within the next 3 days unless we get him to a hospital" the call is yours of course... if you let him die crew morale takes a nose dive, but if you rush back to base before the "deadline" crew morale takes a huge jump. i think this could really add to the game"

Things like this are what's needed. Decisions that the game player that will have an effect on the game. If I come back early to save my crew, I better have a good reputation with BdU. Otherwise I could lose my boat or get crappier assignments.

Conversely, if I ignore my crew that will have effects on how my crew operates in times of stress.

This gives the Kaluen the tough choices. There is no right or wrong answer, but like in life, it has an effect.

Pretty much every decision should have some effect on the game. Good and bad.

[Iron Budokan]

Good suggestions overall. Dunno about the dynamic shore leave, but I would love more nuts and bolts detail for my U-boat and seeing contrails in the sky as the battle rages around you is an awesome idea.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Its a shame I can't really say anything else, a very sad thing but I feel I'm right... look what happened with SHIV!

Not much different than SH3 really. At least we have a game that is very moddable. Not saying I agree with games that are half-released, not at all, but it is the end product that matters. Both SH3 and now 4 had and have good foundations to build on.

That being said there is always room for improvement, some nice ideas here :yep:


RDP

[Uber Gruber]

For me at least the number one thing that I would like to see improved is THE SEA.....considering we spend most of our time looking at it either via the UZO, scopes, binnocs or the bridge then the more realistic sea state and environment would be nice. Look how much ROWs work was appreciated in SHIV.

A greater variety of sea state, big storms, big waves, SPRAY, boat physics, sub physics. I'd happily pay twice the cost of SH3 and SH4 combined for that....no, really, I would. Its the most influention emersion factor on top of what we already have.

Oh who am i kidding.....:cry:

[TarJak]

The one thing I would like to see is a more realistic trim management for the boat. If you calculate your trim wrong then you put your boat and crew at risk so the 3 P's are what being a submariner is all about.

Making sure you had the right tanks filled to the right amount was important when diving. I was recently reading Command by Antony Melville-Ross in which he points out the difficulties and danger associated with getting your trim wrong.

If ice coating the boat in winter latitudes were included then this should upset the balance and trim of the boat making it more dangerous to dive because you cannot make accurate trim calculations.

The problem with doing this is of course it takes away some of the accessibility of the game for those not bothered to understand the dynamics involved so make realistic trim a realism option like limited fuel or batteries.

Additionally I would like to see players being able to take part in any theatre on either side. In the Pacific, Atlantic and Med players could choose to play either Axis or Allied subs depending on their preferences for game play.

Better weather and sea modellingwould be a great improvement as well.

[Sailor Steve]

The one thing I would like to see is a more realistic trim management for the boat.

The problem with doing this is of course it takes away some of the accessibility of the game for those not bothered to understand the dynamics involved so make realistic trim a realism option like limited fuel or batteries.
Maybe a median option, so the actual trimming of the boat is automatic (done by the crew), but you have to take the time to make the trim dives every day, or it starts to go bad.

[Madox58]

I think the question is wrong.

Useing my best JFK voice, It should be:

"Ask not what SH5 can learn from SH3 and SH4.
Ask what should the DEVELOPERS of SH5 learn from the mistakes and successes
of SH3 and SH4!"

:rotfl:

[bracer]

Hey mates!

Lot of nice ideas here!
Can't help to share my dreams.

What I miss the most is, as already mentioned above, more advanced control over the sub, like total control over the dive planes. And some sort of advanced engine control too, I like the part in SH4 were you can see which parts of the sub belongs to the other and which is needed for what functions, but I would like some more detailed control over for instance which parts to repair.
Hmm, don't know how to explain myself, but some sort of tactical engine-managment, sacrifice something to repair something else...
The possibillity to modify the engines somehow.
Taking the roll of for instance the engineer.
I also like the idea of a more advanced radio station.

I think the devs are onto something great in the SH4 addon where you can call scout planes and stuff, this could evolve endelessly into a great tactical part of SH.

I also want a really busy campaign layer, lots of more battles both in the air, land and sea!! IMO one of the biggest kicks I got from GWX 2 when I installed it after playing stock SH3 was the feeling like I really was in a war, seeing all the biggest towns in europe turn red and blue at different time periods, getting radio messages about the invasion of norway when sailing out from Wilhelmshaven and two hours later seeing squadrons of stukas heading north flying over me. I also think this could be taken really far.

And at last: a really beautiful model of the uboat, it should be so detailed and sexy that I don't need any TC, I should spend hours just looking at my beautiful type VII, roaming the interiors, see the diesels work, water dripping down the walls and just drewl when in exterior view.......mmm......

Better stop before I carry away too far......
/Bracer

[johnm]

Open Source is the only real way of getting a realistic sim as the software companies need cash so release the game ASAP finished or not.

T

One of the biggest changes they need to make in boat management is getting the watch officer off his butt when we surface. It is so nice in SH4 to surface and not worry about sobering up the watch officer and getting him out of bed.



I wish this could be done as a mod, It's crazy that you have to kick him up to the deck every time. Especially as you need him up there before you can order a surface action.

You should be able to issue orders like : Gun action, target merchant at 3,000 mtrs, 250 degrees: BEFORE surfacing! Then surface and watch officer gets on deck, as does guns crew and they open fire without further action from you.

Oh, if only! - well, any one can dream.