Bayonets

[Dronston]

About 15 years ago my Grandmother gave me two bayonets that had belonged to my Grandfather. The story was that he had been part of Dutch resistance and these bayonets were captured from the Germans, which can't be the whole story 'cause one of them is British. (nobody is left alive to ask :cry:) They have been in my fathers attic and I recently got them back.

So I tried to identify them but am not sure. Does anyone here know for sure?
http://www.worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/bayonet_identification_guide.html

The one on the bottom is German and seems to be a M1884/98 III (http://www.worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/Germany__Post_WW_I_/B1074/b1074_0.html)

The one on top seems to be British: "Sword bayonet for use with the Short Magazine Lee-Enfield No. I Mk. III (SMLE) .303 caliber rifle. These rifles were the British mainstay during WWI. The SMLE also saw extensive use by Commonwealth countries during WWII."(http://www.worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/Britian__Pre_WWII_/B1072/b1072_0.html)

Confirmation would be appreciated.


http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2655/bayonetsim0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/%3Ca%20href=%22http://imageshack.us%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2655/bayonetsim0.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Image %20Hosted%20by%20ImageShack.us%22/%3E%3C/a%3E%3Cbr/%3E

[Steel_Tomb]

I can't possitively confirm it, but the top one deffinately looks like a british one to me from what I've seen in documentaries and the like. Can't say about the German one at the bottom though. Perhaps the Jerry he got them off had gotten a British one from the initial fighting?

[Dronston]

Perhaps the Jerry he got them off had gotten a British one from the initial fighting?

I guess that's possible. I'm afraid I'll never know the exact story.

[Dronston]

I'm still searching the net for more info but I have the impression that the leather belt attachment (frog) belongs to the german bayonet in stead of the British one and were apparantly switched.

[Trex]

Bottom one is almost certainly for the Kar 98, the standard WW2 German bolt-action rifle. It was basically a shortened and otherwise-modified Gew 98 (their standard WW1 rifle) AND was adopted in 1935. The '98' refers to the year of adoption of the basic design, BTW.

Top one appears to be the SMLE bayonet as you say. However, there are some very similar ones, so dimensions and, in particular, markings would be useful. Look on the wood handle and at the base of the blade.

As to the frog on the top sheath, good question. It does not look like the typical British-issue one, but the pressures of WW1 may have led to non-standard ones being used. As well, the SMLE was used in many commonwealth nations until well after WW2; this could be a non-British SMLE frog. Alternatively, as suggested by Dronston, this could be from another type of bayonet entirely; it does resemble the KAR 98 frog. Again, markings would help if you can find any.

[Stealth Hunter]

Trex is right. The short and somewhat stout one is definitely made for the K98 bolt-action rifle, standard issue for the German army. The first one appears to be a British sword bayonet for the Lee-Enfield Mk.III.

This is pretty cool. I've got a couple of old bayonets and swords, but I've never really bothered to look into them. My favorite bayonet I'm fairly sure is Japanese (definitely a sword bayonet; has a wavy blade), but I could be wrong on that. Most of the swords I have are not from Germany or Britain, though. I've got a pair that have silver grips/hand-guards that are modeled to reflect the particular style of Indian craftsmanship and another that is a Janissary saber from the 15th Century (or so I was told by my grandfather; don't know if it's true or not).

You've sparked my interest into investigating these weapons more and more. Thanks for the post. This is a really good topic.

[Dronston]

You've sparked my interest into investigating these weapons more and more. Thanks for the post. This is a really good topic.

You're welcome, and thanks for your reply.

Again, markings would help if you can find any.

Will try to post the markings later today, first I need to recharge my camera's batteries :damn:

[Dronston]

OK, here are the markings.
Sorry for the poor quality pics, cannot get close / sharp enough.

Top (British): Symbol that looks like a swastika (odd enough) with one leg missing and a small arrow beneath it. (the rest is damage) No further markings on any part.

Bottom: (German): 510 b and on the scabbard 6517 d No further markings on any part.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6750/markingsaxo4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Top (British): you can see a crown and in the darker part of the blade some symbols- one says 43 or 45 and one looks like a 5 but may also be just some damage. No further markings on any part.

Bottom: (German): 42 cof and on the scabbard 44 crs No further markings on any part. Found out that 42 cof means its manufactured by Carl Eickhorn Waffenfabrik, Solingen, I presume in 1942. The scabbard was made by Paul Weyersberg und Co, Solingen I presume in 1944. (http://www.donet.com/~mconrad/bcncode.htm) http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/661/markingsbqk4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/%5Burl=http://imageshack.us%5D%5Bimg=http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/661/markingsbqk4.jpg%5D%5B/url%5D

[Trex]

Haven't my reference books available right now, but that tiny arrow confirms the one as British (or at least Commonwealth). The broad arrow goes back hundreds of years, to the time when certain trees, because of their straightness and size, were reserved for Royal Navy masts before they were cut by marking them with it. The particular symbol was selected as distinctive, very British and conventient (just six axe strokes). Virtually all British military equipment is marked with the broad arrow.

So it is indeed an SMLE.

More to follow when my books surface. Hope this helps.

More thoughts: The British stopped making the SMLE in 1943 and switched over to the Enfield No. 4 (which used a completely different bayonet). It is possible that they kept manufacturing SMLE bayonets and such to support those rifles still in service.

However, both Australia and India made the SMLE throughout WW2 and for some time after, so the '43' or '45' could indicate a date. Further, the SMLE was issued to troops from across the empire and it would not be surprising to find that the local govt stamped its eqpt with a distinctive marking. The style of crown indicates that it was made pre-1952 or so. Final option - Khyber Pass copy. Unlikely, but still possible.

My gut feel? Indian manufacture, with the 'swastika' a manufacturer's mark from a small factory or even cottage industry. I stand to be corrected on that. It's a pity the markings are so blurred.

[AdlerGrosmann]

My brain tells me:
1st- British
2nd- British
3rd- German

[Dronston]

Haven't my reference books available right now, but that tiny arrow confirms the one as British (or at least Commonwealth). The broad arrow goes back hundreds of years, to the time when certain trees, because of their straightness and size, were reserved for Royal Navy masts before they were cut by marking them with it. The particular symbol was selected as distinctive, very British and conventient (just six axe strokes). Virtually all British military equipment is marked with the broad arrow.

So it is indeed an SMLE.

More to follow when my books surface. Hope this helps.

More thoughts: The British stopped making the SMLE in 1943 and switched over to the Enfield No. 4 (which used a completely different bayonet). It is possible that they kept manufacturing SMLE bayonets and such to support those rifles still in service.

However, both Australia and India made the SMLE throughout WW2 and for some time after, so the '43' or '45' could indicate a date. Further, the SMLE was issued to troops from across the empire and it would not be surprising to find that the local govt stamped its eqpt with a distinctive marking. The style of crown indicates that it was made pre-1952 or so. Final option - Khyber Pass copy. Unlikely, but still possible.

My gut feel? Indian manufacture, with the 'swastika' a manufacturer's mark from a small factory or even cottage industry. I stand to be corrected on that. It's a pity the markings are so blurred.
Thanks for your effort.
I think it's pretty certain now we correctly indentified the British bayonet as a SMLE.
I don't think it would be a replica, these two bayonets have always been together (I'm pretty certain) since at least '45. I think I saw the "swastika" symbol on some other "real" bayonets as well.

I also got confirmation from Ralph who runs the site mentioned in my first post. I sent him an email with the same picture and he confirmed that my identifications were right. He als confirmed that the leather frog on the British bayonet actually belongs to the German one.

Datum: 07/04/08 01:48 AM
> > > Van: "Ralph Cobb"
> > > Aan: "Dronston"
> > > CC:
> > > Onderwerp : Re: Can you help me identify?
> > >
> > >Dronston,
> > >
> > > You're right on all counts. The bayonets are as you have identified them. The frog is German, for the M1884/98 III. I usually store the frog separate from the bayonet. Very nice pieces!
> > >
> > >
> > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Ralph E. Cobb
> > > www.worldbayonets.com
> > > 98k Bayonet Collectors' Network (BCN) Member NRA Endowment Life
> > > Member C & R FFL

So I guess I have all my questions answered. Their actual story and how they came into the hands of Dutch resistance will always be unknown. Pity.

One extra thing: I actually got a third item with these bayonets, claimed to be also from the same period and circumstances -- brass knuckels, but made (pressed?) from aluminium (very light). I did no research whatsoever. Any comments on that one? :smug:

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5951/knucklessu7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5951/knucklessu7.9eb07ba749.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=523&i=knucklessu7.jpg)

It's not a big item. I'm not a big guy (1.75 metres) and have a normal size hands but can only just get my fingers in and it feels that if I would hit someone with it I would break all my fingers because the back rest (?) doesn't give enough support.



Thanks again all.