Richard O'Kane Method Revisited

[secretgimp]

Hi All,

Just wanted to share, this is a cross post to Ubi Official Forums:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/3501089746

Best Regards,
Secretgimp

[Platapus]

it is a good method. I did not believe it when I first tried it, but son of a gun, it works!

[Rockin Robbins]

Werner Sobe (I think) is the originator of this attack method, but I could not find it and I quote here Rockin Robbins's post:

Hahahahahahahahaha! I'll not enlighten them. Makes no difference there anyway. This is my forum and here I stay.

OH! This is secretgimp's first post: WELCOME!!!:up:

Edit: I've just updated my The Dick O'Kane (UB & FB) and Fast-90 (UB only) attack methods (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67) post to include new, easier to understand step-by-step (follow the bouncing ball!) procedure PLUS a brand new tutorial on Wazoo's great Fast-90 attack technique for U-Boats. Yes, if you order now I'll give you our Dick O'Kane slide seminar, the simple, step-by-step directions that even your cat could use successfully, and if you order in the next thirty minutes, I'll include absolutely free of charge, my entirely new, easy to understand procedure for Wazoo's incomparable Fast-90 U-Boat attack! That's three great tutorials for the cost of one! Then you can say with me "Yea, though I walk through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the meanest son of a biscuit eater in the valley!"

Please note that although I share credit for the Dick (not Richard) O'Kane attack procedure with aaronblood and gutted, the Fast-90 technique was originated and named by Wazoo. Names are important and it ticks me off to see lazy people not give credit where credit is due and who take it upon themselves to rename something created by others. Damn, I sound as cranky as Ducimus!:rotfl: Typical of that other forum and one of several reasons I don't go over there.

[peabody]

I am having a little bit of trouble with this. I still have a probelm wrapping my pea brain aroung "range doesn't matter, but it will come to me.

Questions
Now go to your attack map and look at the projected torpedo path. You should be able to perceive the torpedo’s projected path of travel at an angle off your starboard bow. This angular deviation from your straight ahead bearing 0º is actually the mirror (on axis AC) of angle A of our triangle. Measure and remember this angle. There are no tools in the attack map to measure the angle. Do I need a MOD to do it?

Next thing you need to do is to set the "actual" AoB. This is actually angle B of our triangle. You can quickly calculate angle B by subtracting angle A from 90º. E.g. if angle A is 12º, then AoB is 78º. Make sure you set AoB on the correct side of the target ship. In this example, AoB is set on starboard side of target (for target crossing your bow from port to starboard).
Do I click send here or AFTER I move the scope to angle A? I assume after because that would overwrite the first send anyway, right?
Am I reading this wrong, do you leave the AOB at 90 or do you change it to angle b.

Peabody

[Rockin Robbins]

I am having a little bit of trouble with this. I still have a probelm wrapping my pea brain aroung "range doesn't matter, but it will come to me.

Questions
Now go to your attack map and look at the projected torpedo path. You should be able to perceive the torpedo’s projected path of travel at an angle off your starboard bow. This angular deviation from your straight ahead bearing 0º is actually the mirror (on axis AC) of angle A of our triangle. Measure and remember this angle. There are no tools in the attack map to measure the angle. Do I need a MOD to do it?
Yup! I guess you're using the stock game. Find the 360º bearing plotter mod and you'll have the bearing ring around your boat in both the attack and nav maps. Sorry, I'm so used to Trigger Maru that I forget all it does for the game sometimes.

Next thing you need to do is to set the "actual" AoB. This is actually angle B of our triangle. You can quickly calculate angle B by subtracting angle A from 90º. E.g. if angle A is 12º, then AoB is 78º. Make sure you set AoB on the correct side of the target ship. In this example, AoB is set on starboard side of target (for target crossing your bow from port to starboard).
Do I click send here or AFTER I move the scope to angle A? I assume after because that would overwrite the first send anyway, right?
Am I reading this wrong, do you leave the AOB at 90 or do you change it to angle b.
You've got it! First, you enter the speed of the target.

Angle A is the amount of lead you need for the torpedo to impact at a perfect right angle. Since the perfect right angle isn't critical, any angle within 10º one way or the other of angle A will work. You're right, point the periscope at angle A toward the direction the target is coming from and hit the send range/bearing button!

Then you have to figure out angle b, which is the angle on the bow (at time of firing): nothing more than the bearing from to target to you! Subtract the angle you chose to fire from (perhaps angle A) from 90. Suppose you decide to fire 15º before the target gets to 90º. Then you would set the AoB to 75º starboard or port. If he's coming from your starboard, the Aob is port. If he's coming from your port the AoB is starboard. Set angle b as your AoB, press the send AoB button and you're ready to fire.

Now, point the periscope at angle you decided to fire from, 75º in this case. When the ship is in the crosshairs you will hit the ship exactly where the vertical hairline intersects the hull of the ship. That means each torpedo is individually aimed at its own part of the ship, unlike shooting with the PK where all torpedoes but one are wasted because they hit the same spot on the target. You can saturate that CV from one end to the other with distributed shots that are MUCH more likely to sink your target.

[XLjedi]

I am having a little bit of trouble with this. I still have a probelm wrapping my pea brain aroung "range doesn't matter, but it will come to me.


The torpedo firing solution is based on the Constant Bearing Formula. :ping: If two ships are traveling in a straight line and the distance between the two ships is getting shorter but the bearing is not changing, that means you're on a collision course. The constant bearing formula determines the proper course to take given target speed and heading and intercept speed. The course the torpedo tracks would show that any point along the course, the bearing to target would be exactly the same. Therefore, assuming a flat 2D plane you could extend the distances to infinity and the course to intercept would not change.

http://www.xl-logic.com/mobo/tutorial_pics/range_na.png

Notice in the example above, how targets M1-M5 are all tracking 210° at 7kts on a 20° bearing. Notice how the firing solution for every one of them is the same. Therefore, for any target bearing 20° heading 210° at 7kts, the firing solution is 7°. This is true for any target on a 20° beam regardless of distance.

Distance can skew a solution if you are not firing at close to a 0° gyro angle. That's why positioning yourself at 90° helps to simplify the process. The skewness has to do with torpedo advance, the torpedo runs straight for a distance and then begins it's gyro turn toward target. If your gyro angles are relatively low (as in our 7° angle above) the error is not significant enough to effect your shot inside of 2000m.

It is interesting to note that we all have this "sense" built into us. Most kids growing up in the US play football. Do you remember when you were trying to run down that person streaking down the sideline, you probably didn't realize it, but the way you figured what direction to take in order to tackle that person was to run toward them such that your head was locked on them. You were subconsciously holding bearing to your target constant while moving in a direction (close to a straight line) and closing distance. Thankfully it was a skill that the coaches didn't have to teach, we were all just born with it.

[peabody]

Thanks for the answers guys, I set up a little practice mission in the editor, but when Rockin said to look at the attack map and the fish would be coming straight out of the tube, well mine weren't so I knew I was doing something wrong. And by setting up a practice mission, I knew what the speed was so if it didn't work right I knew it wasn't a speed calculation error. Just one step at a time.

And Thanks for the range info. I lost all 'sense' a long time ago. I think what was messing me up is I was thinking since it would take the fish longer to get to the far ship, it shouldn't work, but thinking it through: it will take longer for the fish to get to the farthest target but if they are lined up side by side (not the way you show them but like in a convoy) it will take longer for the close one to get to the firing solution. So the fish will be almost to the far ship before you even shoot at the closest one. So the pieces are starting to fall into place.
Do you remember when you were trying to run down that person streaking down the sideline No, I just tackle him behind the line of scrimmage so I didn't have to chase him. LOL.


Peabody

[Rockin Robbins]

That program he shot the screenprints from is MoBo: the electronic maneuvering board and suchi maker. OK, I made up the part about the suchi. But after you see all the things you can do with it, you'll think it's really capable of making the suchi too. He's in his own corner of SUBSIM and MoBo is a free download.

[peabody]

That program he shot the screenprints from is MoBo: the electronic maneuvering board and suchi maker. OK, I made up the part about the suchi. But after you see all the things you can do with it, you'll think it's really capable of making the suchi too. He's in his own corner of SUBSIM and MoBo is a free download.

I actually downloaded mobo but haven't had the chance to check it out. Ya know with life getting in the way and all.

Peabody

[secretgimp]

Hi all, thanks for the warm welcome.

@peabody:
Yes sir, I forgot about the angle measurement in attack map. I am using Trigger Maru Overhaul, and it super imposes a compass on my ship in attack and nav map. Sorry bout that, Rockin Robbins is right, you'll need a mod to have it there.

AoB is not actually that important in this method because you leave your PK off, so the torpedo firing solution will not change. You can even set the AoB of 90º on whichever side (starboard side in the example) and leave it there. But I personally like to setup all variables correctly. Having the "actual" AoB properly put into the TDC will allow you to double check your solution, it will let you see if you might have made blatant careless mistakes on target track calculation or some such. Also, it might just prove useful if you discover escorts and need to move away from your 90º position. Then you'll switch on the PK and launch a snapshot at the target while moving around.

1. Put in target speed in TDC, click send.
2. Put AoB 90º, click send.
3. Set periscope 0º, click send.
4. Go to attack map and figure out angle A.
5. Go to AoB and adjust to precise angle (angle B), click send.
6. Offset periscope by angle A, click send.
7. Go to attack map to double check everything.
8. Wait for target to cross your aim point (corner B).

No need to worry about overwrites or sequence, because the stadimeter portion of the TDC supplies bearing information and the AoB portion supplies relative target track information. Different pieces of data, there is no overwrite.

[secretgimp]

Oh yeah, if you're not using mods that will give you the compass overlay in attack map, then you can still set this up properly by performing this procedure:

1. Put in target speed in TDC, click send.
2. Put AoB 90º, click send.
3. Set periscope 0º, click send.
4. In periscope view, look at the PK's lower dial, hover mouse over lower dial, you'll get a readout telling you the torpedo gyro angle. Or you might be able to read the angle right off the dial face. This is Angle A.
5. Go to AoB and adjust to precise angle (angle B), click send.
6. Offset periscope by angle A, click send.
7. Go to attack map to double check everything.
8. Wait for target to cross your aim point (corner B).

[peabody]

No need to worry about overwrites or sequence, because the stadimeter portion of the TDC supplies bearing information and the AoB portion supplies relative target track information. Different pieces of data, there is no overwrite.
First of all, I didn't notice it was your first post until I read Rockin Robbins post. Welcome!!

Second you commented the stadimeter supplies bearing, wouldn't it have to also supply range, wouldn't that be the reason for measuring the mast height? Which of course doesn't apply with this meathod, but that is why I thought they might overwrite, because AOB would give direction the ship is travelling in relation to the sub and I thought that might include range info. Thanks for the step by step. I kind of had the idea, I was doing something wrong because the torp wasn't coming out straight in the attack map. But I finally did it straight and sank two BBs that I set up in Mission Editor. But like I commented I cheated because I already knew the speed because I put it in.
I commented to the others that I am still on auto targeting, I haven't had the game very long and it's the first sub sim I've ever played so I want to learn how to do these things but I also want to be able to have a good time without being frustrated constantly. So every once in a while I try something new and piece by piece it's coming together. I also pick up a few tricks now and then which I'm sure the good players have already done many times. One is attacking convoys, after I shoot I always swing aroung before I drop the scope to see if the DD saw me. A lot of times I see him heading straight at me. So I leave the scope up and 'ahead flank', as he gets close enough I shot one right at his bow the turn a bit port and let one go and a bit starboard and let another one go, about 7 times out of 10, he turns right into it trying to avoid the one head on. I'm not so sure that would work in like TM or Mods where they are more "intelligent" DDs.
I had an unbeliveable day well night (till 2:30 AM.:doh: boy am I tired)last night, I demolished two convoys. I did the first on auto target and the second I tried this technique, but once the ships got scrambling around the speeds changed so I missed a few times. Those misses went by
twice and hit DDs charging in. Next thing I know it's just me and four merchants left. (No DDs, talk about luck) Both convoys only had one ship get away. In fact I ended up having to finish off a couple with the deck gun, no fish left. (I did refit between convoys, I didn't do two convoys with one load of torpedos)

Here's a little tip you may already know but it's the first time it happened to me. I am using the kind of purple color torps (I'll look it up....MK-23) even though they are one speed they seem to work good for me so I buy them at $100 each. Well, if you stop at a refit station they load you with whatever you already have on the boat, but I went right by the refit and went back to port. I had to buy them again. I could have gotten them free if I had stopped at the refit.

Again, Welcome, you will meet a lot of helpful people here. And good hunting. And if you read the recent threads you'll see one about helpful people but one made a comment about the moderators, he hasn't been heard from since. We're pretty sure he is strapped to the conning tower of a gato at 300 ft.

Another thing you might find interesting, I knew if wasn't right but I had no other way to do it since I didn't have the mods. I used the spread angle dial to put the torp straight out the front of the boat and read the angle off of there to get angle A. (resetting to zero after) Then of course after the next step they will be coming straight out the front.

Peabody

[Rockin Robbins]

I HAVE to make up a movie on Dick O'Kane. That way people can see exactly how it's done. I found out last night that since my graphics card and CPU upgrade I can do that, so it's my next goal.

Tried it last night and blew the attack! I was so busy setting up and explaining I talked while the ship cruised right by the aiming point.:oops:

Learned some things, though, which I'll pass on when I do the real thing. There are ways you can compensate when you know your solution is wrong. I'll get to it and hopefully put those little details to rest when I'm done.

[capt_frank]

I HAVE to make up a movie on Dick O'Kane.

Looking forward to that. I popped a ship from as far out at 1600 yards using this method only to sometimes have my torps run behind the target, yes even after checking my speed three to five times.

Would be nice to see how the master does it!

[Rockin Robbins]

I've blown two videos! It's amazing what can go wrong in a 15 minute sequence. Stay tuned!!

Question: with Hypercam why would the sound be unsynchronized from the video, by as much as 10 seconds! The sound was lagging behind the video, so you see me making like mad with the map tools with no explanation. One more junked!

[secretgimp]

@peabody


Yeah, the stadimeter portion of the TDC actually supplies 2 pieces of data. One is the range and the other is the relative bearing. If you click the send button without using the stadimeter, you be only putting in the bearing.

[Munchausen]

I've blown two videos! It's amazing what can go wrong in a 15 minute sequence.

Forget trying to explain what's going on while in the game. Save it until you edit ... then dub it all in.

[Rockin Robbins]

Remember, just the recording was impossible before, so I'm below grass level looking at the roots. What's a good tool for dubbing sound on a video track?

[Doolan]

I had never heard of the Dick O'Kane method (although I had indeed heard of him!) and it didn't make a lot of sense until aaron's excellent explanation.

I won't have access to my gaming PC for a week or so though, so I can't test it out. Trying to work out the problem in my head, some questions remain.

Apparently, I just input the target's speed and the theoretical AOB of 90º just to find out the lead angle for a perfect perpendicular hit, then input the correct AOB, move the periscope that number of degrees towards the target's approach course and fire at different spots of the ship as it goes by the vertical mark. So far, so good.

Still, for the constant bearing formula to apply, my fleet boat would have to be moving, correct? Does this method work from a static boat?

Also, technically for the formula to work completely and the bearing to remain truly constant, there would have to be a perfect marriage between the target's speed and the sub's speed, which is obviously not always the case. I assume the inaccuracy is negligible for normal firing ranges (600 to 1200 yards in my case)?

Also, did Dick O'Kane actually invent or use this method? Where's the reference? :D

Man, I love this forum. Thanks everyone for your endless wisdom.

[Munchausen]

The formula is independant of sub's speed. The only thing a moving sub will do is increase or decrease the distance to the target.* And, as you already know, distance is not an important factor in the attack geometry.

* Granted, it might impart a little extra momentum to the torpedo but not enough to make any appreciable difference.

[Rockin Robbins]

Dick O'Kane had two books, "Clear the Bridge!" about the USS Tang and "Wahoo." I have not read the books but while developing U-Boat techniques for the fleet boat, aaronblood told me about passages in both books where O'Kane mentioned shutting down the PK and shooting as the target passed the mark. That's about as specific as O'Kane gets, but we were searching for an appropriate name for our technique and as a tribute to O'Kane and seeing that he COULD have used something very close, we decided to call it the Dick O'Kane method. His original idea that I approved of.

Note that the constant bearing isn't from the POV of the submarine, but the POV of the torpedo! As the torpedo speeds toward the target, the bearing of the target from the torpedo does not change until BOOM!

Well, here's a good setup with a double-blown attack. What did I do wrong here? First, I waited too long while I ran my mouth to raise the periscope. Then by the time I raised it the last half of the ship was passing my chosen shoot bearing. So I changed the aiming point all the way up to about 15º AFTER zero, that's 30º after I planned to shoot and shot five anyway. Then after carefully explaining that you have to push the send range/bearing and AoB send buttons twice, I only pushed it once.:cry: See what happens with this blown attack. Hope it gives you a lot of confidence.

Blown Dick O'Kane tutorial attack (http://files.filefront.com/Dick+OKane+targeting+video7z/;9969063;/fileinfo.html), courtesy of your source of "endless wisdom" and fumble fingers: Rockin Robbins. Yeah, "Endless Wisdom" blew the attack! How do you like THEM apples? Ha!:rotfl:

[XLjedi]

Still, for the constant bearing formula to apply, my fleet boat would have to be moving, correct? Does this method work from a static boat?

Also, technically for the formula to work completely and the bearing to remain truly constant, there would have to be a perfect marriage between the target's speed and the sub's speed, which is obviously not always the case. I assume the inaccuracy is negligible for normal firing ranges (600 to 1200 yards in my case)?

Also, did Dick O'Kane actually invent or use this method? Where's the reference? :D

Man, I love this forum. Thanks everyone for your endless wisdom.

Yes, it works from a stationary position. No, for the bearing to remain constant the two objects DO NOT have to be going the same speed.

You're not calculating the intercept course for the sub to impact the target... it's the torpedos constant speed! Your sub can be sitting perfectly still or creeping toward the target on a perpendicular path to the target's course. If my sub was moving closer to the targets course, all I would be doing is shortening the distance to the impact point. ...and we know distance is irrelevent in the calculation.

In my plot example above the subs heading is perpendicular to the targets path, and could be moving or stationary. The plotted intercepts in that case relate to the constant speed of the Mk1 torpedo moving at 18kts.

In the Wahoo book, O'kane was Mush Morton's XO. It was while he served under Morton that he developed the tactic of holding the aiming wire constant and firing while the target points of interest passed the aiming wire.

Here's a link to the book: http://www.submarinebooks.com/WahooHB.htm
I found it at my local library and would have to re-check it out to find the exact page references.

In the Tang book O'Kane also mentions that he continues to use his method of holding the aiming wire constant... but it doesn't go into too much detail beyond that.

Neither book gives me the impression that O'kane completely ignored the PK. On the contrary, I was under the impression that he made deadly use of it. In fact he was constantly practicing and drilling his crew with a model ship on a lazy susan to help better estimate AoB. I believe he entered the data in the PK, watched how the ship tracked against his estimated AoB, made slight adjustments based on VERY BRIEF peeks with the scope, and when it came time to fire he held the wire and fired while points of interest passed.

It's the notion of momentarily freezing the aiming wire that deserves the nod to O'kane.

[Doolan]

Hmmmm...

Thanks *a bunch* for the explanations!

After reading your amazing description and looking at the Mobo image again, I believe I get it, and the method is simply genius, not to mention a tad simpler than most other methods and, if your plot to the target is good enough, more accurate, specially since the stadimeter apparently hates my guts.

Of course, it calls for a really good speed estimate, but on the other hand it makes aiming at different parts of the target more intuitive than the usual method of resorting to the spread angle dial. I also assume this would be extremely useful for convoy attacks, since all ships in a convoy supposedly hold the same course and speed...

If you're lucky, you might even fire at a distant ship in a convoy first and at a closer one second, and hit both roughly at the same time, minimizing the chance of evasion.

I'll get both books. So far all I've read about O'Kane was in Beach's book, and I already had the impression that he was a wicked dude, but this is way too much! :D

[Hitman]

Neither book gives me the impression that O'kane completely ignored the PK. On the contrary, I was under the impression that he made deadly use of it. In fact he was constantly practicing and drilling his crew with a model ship on a lazy susan to help better estimate AoB. I believe he entered the data in the PK, watched how the ship tracked against his estimated AoB, made slight adjustments based on VERY BRIEF peeks with the scope, and when it came time to fire he held the wire and fired while points of interest passed.


Yes, I readed his books and a lot more of stuff and I think that the PK was used by him a lot for the tracking party. However, once the target data were confirmed and the attack position chosen, he switched it off in favour of a stuck firing solution with the fixed wire. Which incidentally is also what the germans most usually did :D Interesting to see how in opposite sides of the world they came to the same method :hmm:

[capt_frank]

Great video RR!! :up:

Ah Ha! One needs to send data to the TDC twice, I was only clicking once...

Thanks!

[Doolan]

After doodling around in my whiteboard this magical thing called Richard O'Kane method, I saw that it would work brilliantly with Sugar Boats as well. I was using the Kulick method with sugar boats to some success, but this would work a tad better!

It's really a nifty solution, since the stadimeter is pretty inaccurate most of the time (at least in my hands!) and spreading torpedoes along a hull using spread angle is a pain.

While I wait till I have time to resurrect my gaming PC, I'll purchase the expansion so I'm all set for TDC action by the weekend.

[Munchausen]

Yes, I readed his books and a lot more of stuff and I think that the PK was used by him a lot for the tracking party. However, once the target data were confirmed and the attack position chosen, he switched it off in favour of a stuck firing solution with the fixed wire.

I got the same impression. Since neither O'Kane nor Morton had the advantage of "automatic map updates" to determine target speed, they probably inserted a WAG into the TDC, then watched to see how closely their estimate fit the ongoing geomety.

If I remember correctly, O'Kane even made mention of it in one of his books ... comparing each observation against how the picture progressed via PK. Once he was reasonably certain of the target's speed, he reverted to using 90-degree attack geometry.

[Rockin Robbins]

Great video RR!! :up:

Ah Ha! One needs to send data to the TDC twice, I was only clicking once...

Thanks!
Can you believe I messed up the attack at the end by pressing the send button only once? :damn:

@munchausen: I think you've it on it perfectly there! O'Kane was considered a TDC/PK wizard, who knew his equipment totally. Using the PK to refine speed measurements is exactly what he would do. However, I think he would also have been able to measure speed precisely with two radar fixes. Then the PK would just verify that the target had not changed speed or course. Then he would turn off the PK at the end of the attack to shoot as they pass the wire. All this is just speculation but it is educated speculation, knowing that O'Kane used every tool at his disposal to avoid misses. He HATED to waste a precious torpedo.

[Midnight Hunter]

Even though you blew that attack, it was a great video... really gives a straight ahead approach to how it should be done and as long as we aren't talking to ourselves while on our attack runs we shouldn't foul it up lol..


Thanks very much for the vid, can't wait to see another without the oops!!

[Munchausen]

All this is just speculation but it is educated speculation, knowing that O'Kane used every tool at his disposal to avoid misses. He HATED to waste a precious torpedo.

:cool: Indeed. It was an "old" torpedo that literally bit him in the backside. He had a feeling it needed servicing but, in the heat of battle, decided not to "waste" the opportunity.