Chavez to buy Russian subs

[Trex]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/04/04/russia.venezuela.ap/index.html

Can you all spell Kilo?

[SUBMAN1]

Good. Our subs need something to shoot at.

-S

[AVGWarhawk]

Good. Our subs need something to shoot at.

-S

:rotfl:

[CCIP]

You just wait! Chavez will get so rich on the oil, he'll buy not Kilos, but Akula Extreme Uber-edition that has more torpedo tubes and towed arrays and towed torpedo tubes than you can shake a stick at.

In fact nay. He'll buy a Typhoon with Catapillar drive. Then it will sink the entire US Navy and Air Force. Ha ha.




Well, I'm sure he'd love to, anyway :roll:

[August]

In fact nay. He'll buy a Typhoon with Catapillar drive. Then it will sink the entire US Navy and Air Force.

Naw, before that happens the Venezuelans answer to Capt Ramius, along with his officers, will defect to the US bringing their fancy schmancy sub with them. I dreamt it in a hollweird movie... :yep:

[FIREWALL]

I wonder if this will be like South Africa. Buy the Subs and noone knows how to work them then the lights go out.

In their case the oil runs out. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[peterloo]

Kilos, I can almost tell

Russians is still a giant without enough food to keep it running. That's why she tries to export arms to different countries to earn extra income.

And, she has already sold missiles to many countries, including North Korea. Remember the Mig-27s?

I wonder if this will be like South Africa. Buy the Subs and noone knows how to work them then the lights go out.

In their case the oil runs out. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Of course, they might be paying in terms of hard currency, and that's oil. However, once they get the submarine, they can reverse engineer it or incoperate it's feature in their own submarines. As a result, they no longer need Russia as they can run their sub project.

China gathered a large number of Romeos in the 1950s. She copied that and gave them to the North Koreas in 1970s. China obtained 8 Kilos in the 90s, and now improving their Song Class submarines by incoperating Kilo design.

This is highly likely as anyone smart will not entirely depends on foreign technology.

[Dmitry Markov]

Another customer for worn out stuff - welcome , welcome!!!! :)

[AdlerGrosmann]

Russians..will always be willing to buy a new weapon or military machine of any kind. :hmm: I've seen alot of HUGE submarines, probably bigger than my house.

[Steel_Tomb]

Russia is playing a dangerous game with its arms exports, I don't say the UK is clean as a whistle either I was strongly against the arms deal recently signed between Sadi Arabia and BAE Systems. I recall (I may be wrong) that Russia was in the process of selling Skyval's to Iran of all places!!! I can understand selling some arms aborad, nothing wrong with that... but Russia is selling their arms to all the wrong people, I think its pretty obvious the troubles that are occuring near Venezuela and now Russia is going to throw a couple of modern subs their way?! I don't know why Russia would sell more arms to North Korea either, especially with the state North Korea is in. Surely Kim Jong Il should be concentrating on improving the welfare of his own citizens instead of his armed forces. Typical behaviour of autocratic regimes, sell arms to make the world a more unstable place :down:.

[Thunder]

We got three subs(south africa), and can barely manage to run one but we manage to run it quite well methinks...mmm?:rotfl:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ext.php?ref=http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=318355&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/

[mrbeast]

Russia is playing a dangerous game with its arms exports, I don't say the UK is clean as a whistle either I was strongly against the arms deal recently signed between Sadi Arabia and BAE Systems. I recall (I may be wrong) that Russia was in the process of selling Skyval's to Iran of all places!!! I can understand selling some arms aborad, nothing wrong with that... but Russia is selling their arms to all the wrong people, I think its pretty obvious the troubles that are occuring near Venezuela and now Russia is going to throw a couple of modern subs their way?! I don't know why Russia would sell more arms to North Korea either, especially with the state North Korea is in. Surely Kim Jong Il should be concentrating on improving the welfare of his own citizens instead of his armed forces. Typical behaviour of autocratic regimes, sell arms to make the world a more unstable place :down:.

Countries have a right to defend themselves I suppose, even ones we might not like very much, but to single out Russia is unfair seeing as they aren't doing things any differently to anybody else. Also its not the autocratic regimes that are the biggest arms exporters either its the US and UK and were not too fussy to who well sell to. US miltary aid to Israel ran at some 2.76 billion dollars in 2003. Israel is the most beligerant state in the middle east and the US even concedes that its human rights record is poor in occupied palestinian territories, and thats not the worst of it.

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_17.shtml

The UK has a very shady past concerning arms deals:


The UK is the second largest arms exporter in the world (after the USA) and has, according to government figures, exported over £27 billion of military equipment in the past five years alone. For decades the UK Government has had a policy of promoting arms exports, seemingly at any cost. The result of this policy is that the UK continues to arm repressive regimes around the world. In 2000, the UK licensed military exports to 30 of the 40 most repressive regimes in the world and British weapons are being used in most of the world's current conflicts.

http://www.caat.org.uk/campaigns/shelling-out/briefing.php


The UK government has an inclusive attitude to DSEI: regimes who abuse human rights are happily allowed in. Previous guests included Indonesia, Libya, Israel and of course Saudi Arabia - the tyranny of choice for the UK's largest arms company BAE Systems. India and Pakistan both attended DSEI in 2005 - where they could buy weapons to aim at each other. While this year's guest list is still to be released, we can be sure that despotic regimes are likely to return.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/symon_hill/2007/09/guarding_the_gunrunners.html

Countries identified by the government as having poor human rights records have been invited to the arms exhibition which opens in London's docklands today.
They include Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, Colombia, Algeria, Jordan, and Indonesia, whose human rights records have been criticised by the Foreign Office. So, too, have two of the west's new allies - Libya and Iraq.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/sep/13/politics.armstrade

Looks like we supply quite a few of the 'wrong' countries too.

[Steel_Tomb]

I did actually point out our past failings, but Russia does it hell of a lot more consistantly than us! Sell sell sell, without thinking of the consequences of their actions... sounds like Putinesque politics to me "I know, to solve a seige on a school we'll ram the walls down with Tanks and use gas!!" Yes... very subtle that! :doh: Not an example of arms sales, but of one where they've not thought their actions through, with very costly consequences! Of course they didn't take the blame for their mistakes in that terrible episode, same with the theatre seige. They administered an "experimental" nerve agent unevenly without a working antidote... very clever! Killed more people than the terrorists did!

[XabbaRus]

Actually the theatre seige in terms of taking out terrorist was a success. I read an article by an anti-terrorist officer that the Russian method though resulting in loss of non-combatant life was a success as considered by western agencies.

It would be interesting to how it would have progressed had it happened here in the west. I bet we'd have offered them tea and biscuits if they came out peacefully a free lottery ticket and a flight out of here plus a group shag with Vanessa Redgrave.

[AkbarGulag]

The only failing for Russia in the Beslan siege was not moving faster. Remember, the guys (and gals) taking those poor children hostage were extremists. No different to ones that fly planes into buildings. They have the attitude 'my cause justifies killing you' and that makes them unworthy of any negotiation.

I'm surprised nobody here has mentioned the French in arms exports, those guys usually do really well at competing for global share. There is nothing sinister in Russia selling weapons to countries like Venezuela, it's not like providing them with cluster weapons and military equipment designed to supress and kill in urban theatres. It's a kilo sub, hardly likely to be used to supress opposition supporters on the streets of Caracas :lol:

[Trex]

Top arms exporters (including non-payment transfers) for 2007, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute website (billions of $ US):

1. USA 7,821
2.Russia 6,463
3. Germany 2,891
4. France 1,586
5. Netherlands 1,575
6. UK 978
7. Spain 825
8. Italy 694
9. PRC 562
10. Sweden 437
11. Poland 255
12. Israel 246
13. Canada 210
14. Switzerland 208
15. South Korea 80

[NefariousKoel]

I'd like to see an estimate in terms of quantities. I'm sure it'd look different.

[Steel_Tomb]

Yeah, the USA may have sold/made the most money from their exports, but their technology is typically much more expensive that the cheap, mass produced products Russia makes. I was surprised to see the Netherlands made higher arms exports than the UK, not what I was expecting!

[Trex]

One thing to keep in mind with the figures I cited is that they probably include all natures of military and naval equipment, from naval vessels, tanks and jet fighter to mess tins, radios, trucks and field hospital tents.

There have been more than a few PhD's earned trying to unravel this entire topic. Frankly, it's not my area of expertise. SIPRI, despite their sometimes holier-than-thou attitude, generally has some pretty good info. There are others' the UN maintains some data, as does the Federation of American Scientists (try this one to start: http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/asmp/index.html).

The problem, as noted, is made much more complex by the initial cost of the equipment, whether it is new or used, whether or not it is passed with a cost subsidy or even made a gift. As well, some of the data is compiled on a SWAG basis as the nations involved are not generally forthcoming with info.

Much of what the the old Soviet Union provided (at least for complex stuff like aircraft and AFVs) during the Cold War were 'monkey models', much-simplified and less-capable models of what they themselves were using. The Soviets were (rightly) worried about their kit falling into enemy hands and also about the capabilities of their clients to use and maintain sophisticated gear. (Considering that most Soviet equipment was specifically designed to be used by semi-trained conscripts on a two or three-year term, the latter thought seems a bit thin.) I get the impression that Chavez will be not be getting monkey models however; the Project 636 boats on order are an improvement over the older Project 877 KILO design.

[Dmitry Markov]

I think our guys at shipyard will definitely "forget" to put something important in... Anyway when they would be ready it seems they would be of not much use to Chavez whose reign doesn't seem to last SO long :hmm:

As for Beslan - there was a difficulty for spec ops guys concerned with locals. You see on Caucasus everyone has firearms - shotguns, hunting rifles, trauma pistols and so on (sometimes illegal ones like AK-74, M-16 or else - in Chechnya totally illegal including machineguns, grenade throwers and mortars). It's a part of their mentality.
So when "highland freedom fighters" took the kids as hostages everybody in Beslan came at school building with what gunnery he could bring with him. And they all were eager to fight right now. Of course lot of them were parents of the kids inside the building. Spec ops spent a lot of time trying to persuade locals not to interfere into operation. And even after combat began, should any Police officer turn out of sight, locals immediately opened fire towards the terrorists (as they thought). The result was Spec ops members were caught between two fires - enemy's and friendly.
And even in such circumstances Spec ops managed to eliminate all those bastards.

[Dmitry Markov]

Sorry for slight offtop, but there is more on Beslan.
There were of course mistakes in execution of this operation.
First of all authorities being guided by unconfirmed info decided not that this is a local crime and let the local officials to solve the problem. Leaders of the emergency staff were not the trained FSB officers but civilian officials.
They called for Alpha Spec Ops group of course, but this group is responsible for only a tactical part of any operation and they are trained best for tactical actions - strategy means a lot too and on this part there was a gap.
First of all local officials didn't care to make an effective perimeter and to prevent armed citizens from interfering into operation.
Then nobody was ready when combat began - there was no plan for assault.
Alpha group members where without body armour as they were taking observation stands. And straight from there they went into combat. They've had heavy losses (R.I.P. guys :nope: ). Taking into account that all this situation was a complete improvisation thanks God Alpha managed to rescue most part of hostages - about 600 out of 1000.

[Steel_Tomb]

Thats really dodgey. The SAS over here make an imidieate action plan as soon as they arrive on station. the spec ops were there for some time if they hadn't make a plan if things turned sour before they could draw up a complete plan thats piss poor in my books. For something like spetznaz thats not good at all. Still no excuse to use tanks though, I mean christ its an anti-terrorist operation not Kiev! Probably killed a great deal of people who were on the other side of the walls they bashed down. Russian CQB teams seems to need a lot of training, as frequently their actions result in a very much unaceptable loss of civilian life. When terrorist operations happen in Russia, is it controlled independently by the police/fsb chief on the ground or does the modern reincarnation of the politburo control everything? If its all controlled centrally by the government its a prime example of how when everything is centralised it leads to mistakes and wasted time, it only serves to stifle personal initiative of those at the scene.

[Dmitry Markov]

You didn't understand my point. Thing is not in was this specific operation lead centrally or not. It was lead by wrong people.
Well there were whole pile of other terroristic acts including plane-theft when FSB officers ruled the operation and result was positive.
Alpha is trained to highest standarts and they have a lot of experience but they can do a little when inept civilian officials are in command.
Staff's job is to weaken terrorists and to produce a moment for an assault goup to act. And that wasn't done in Beslan.
On the contrary there was hostage-taking act in Sochi in the year 2000 and everything went tip-top because there were FSB staff from the beginning until the end and no civilians at all.
I agree with you on the terms that centralisation is not always the best possible way.

[Trex]

Out of curiosity, have any other security services been faced with a hostage situation the size and scope of either the Beslan school or the Moscow theatre? There have been several airplane rescues (including Entebe) and embassy rescues, but I get the impression that these were all an order of magnitude smaller. No doubt the Russian SOF capability could be improved (whose cannot?) but mass hostage situations would seem to add an additional level of complexity.

[XabbaRus]

Yea Waco TX, as big a cock up as Beslan.

[August]

Yea Waco TX, as big a cock up as Beslan.

Or Grenada 1983. Not a screwup though, perhaps more by luck than anything else.

[Trex]

Waco, whatever the politics involved or perceived, was hardly a classic hostage situation, with bad guys holding a gun on good guys a rescue was effected by other good guys. Which is not to say that the feds handled it well...

As to Grenada, I supported (and still do) the invasion, but the 'hostages' were clearly an excuse as opposed to a reason. Ways could have been found to get them out without fighting. Again, it hardly fits the classic hostage situation.

But thanks for mentioning them.

There is no argument that the Russian handling of Beslan was a Class A Gong Show, but it is far from certain that another agency (SAS, GSG-9, Delta Force, your choice) could have done substantially better. Huge numbers of captives, large numbers of willing-to-die fanatical captors armed with suicide belts, automatic weapons, grenade launchers, etc, the place wired to blow - it was a recipe for a poop sandwich no matter how you look at it.

[August]

As to Grenada, I supported (and still do) the invasion, but the 'hostages' were clearly an excuse as opposed to a reason. Ways could have been found to get them out without fighting. Again, it hardly fits the classic hostage situation.

An excuse for what? Grenada was hardly a strategic objective.

[Trex]

That US students were studying medicine there and, presumably, were in critical danger, was specifically cited by the US govt as one rationale for invading.

[Zayphod]

Good. Our subs need something to shoot at.

-S

Damn, you took the words right off my keyboard. :up:

[Zayphod]

I'd like to see an estimate in terms of quantities. I'm sure it'd look different.

Our hammers and toilet seats cost thousands. :up:

[Zayphod]

I think our guys at shipyard will definitely "forget" to put something important in.

The starter, perhaps. :rotfl:

[August]

That US students were studying medicine there and, presumably, were in critical danger, was specifically cited by the US govt as one rationale for invading.

The students were pretty glad to see us as i recall, having been locked up in their dorms for several days by the thugs that took over that island or risk summary execution. Remember this was just a couple years after the Iran hostage crisis, except this time it was 1000 youngsters instead of 65 adult embassy personnel.

[XabbaRus]

Yea also Reagan pissed of Maggie with the Grenada operation considering it was a UK protectorate and didn't consult with the UK. I'm sure if he had asked Maggie would have been ok with it.