Running surfaced with periscopes up

[Orffen]

I've seen a few videos and some of the loading screen images showing subs running surfaced with both of their scopes up.

I realise this improves visual detection range a bit, but I'm curious as to what the doctrine was during the war.

Did sub commanders run with scopes up, or just rely on their deck watch while surfaced? Was there an official line, or was it just left up to each individual commander to decide?

[Torplexed]

I imagine in some cases scopes were simply left up because it looked impressive in a photograph or newsreel. Given the limited field of view through the lens, it really wouldn't be advantageous to have a man below manning the scope while surfaced when you have lookouts posted....and radar.

[Platapus]

That was called a "high Periscope watch"

From my readings there did not seem to be any official protocol on when a Captain could or could not use it.

I imagine the speed of the boat and the sea state would determine the effectiveness of a high periscope watch. A pitching/rolling boat will make that periscope, extended about 40' really sway.

[Sirkam]

I read somewhere a tactic to improve the visibility (specially in the night), a seaman go to the periscope when the sub is surfaced and see much more sea (Its method is real and very used by the submarine crew).

[Rockin Robbins]

High periscope watch was one of the brilliant strategies developed by Eugene Fluckey to increase his search radius. He calculated that high periscope almost doubled the area of sea surface he could search each day without using radar. Reference his book "Thunder Below" which I previously quoted on this same matter when some questioned the high periscope watch's authenticity.

Partly as a result of using high periscope watch and by his yo-yoing strategy of staying on the surface at cruising speed every possible second, Fluckey, whose career started in March or April 1944, a time when many boats were returning to base full of torpedoes finding no targets, garnered more decorations than any submarine of the war. But he was more proud of the one medal that was not awarded to any crew member of Barb: the purple heart.

[Nisgeis]

I have read war patrols where it has been entered 'spotted target on high periscope' trying to find an entry now. Preferably without the word 'Submerged' before it.

Edit:

USS Razorback,

11th March 1945

0945 Sighted submarine on high periscope bearing 191 degrees T; exchanged recognition signals and calls with USS SPOT (SS413).
1045 Sighted U.S. submarine, not identified.
1115 Made section dive; surfaced at 1145.

Although it should be noted that they also say they sight things through the high periscope whilst submerged also. Does high periscope actually mean height, or does it mean high power magnification? I understand there was a procedure for periscope searches, using fast low power sweeps and slow high power sweeps, especially important with the observation scope before surfacing for looking for enemy aircraft.

[peewee]

I think the important thing to note here is something RR said

"He calculated that high periscope almost doubled the area of sea surface he could search each day without using radar. "

Radar is fine until you meet a warship which can detect your emissions.......

[Wilcke]

Very good points. For historical realism purposes, is there a source on how the Navy (Silent Service) ran their procedures on the boats while on combat patrol. If you guys have ran into any sources by all means post the links or books.

I would really like to put together the SOPs for the periscope watches, pre-surfacing procedures and tracking party....etc...PDF them and up load them. I am not a sea guy at all, pilot so check lists for everything, even for going to the potty.

Thanks in advance!

[kylesplanet]

High periscope watch was one of the brilliant strategies developed by Eugene Fluckey to increase his search radius. He calculated that high periscope almost doubled the area of sea surface he could search each day without using radar. Reference his book "Thunder Below" which I previously quoted on this same matter when some questioned the high periscope watch's authenticity.

Partly as a result of using high periscope watch and by his yo-yoing strategy of staying on the surface at cruising speed every possible second, Fluckey, whose career started in March or April 1944, a time when many boats were returning to base full of torpedoes finding no targets, garnered more decorations than any submarine of the war. But he was more proud of the one medal that was not awarded to any crew member of Barb: the purple heart.

I'm reading Thunder Below right now and Admiral Fluckey sure comes off as a very smart, inovative skipper. I'm about halfway through it and I'll say this, he had some grapefruits. :yep:

[Orffen]

Great to see this many replies, thanks guys!

Very good points. For historical realism purposes, is there a source on how the Navy (Silent Service) ran their procedures on the boats while on combat patrol. If you guys have ran into any sources by all means post the links or books.

I would really like to put together the SOPs for the periscope watches, pre-surfacing procedures and tracking party....etc...PDF them and up load them. I am not a sea guy at all, pilot so check lists for everything, even for going to the potty.

Thanks in advance!

I'd love to see this :up:

[Buffalo9]

I use to do it in SHIII all the time. My biggest concern was could I dive to PD with the scope up and not tear it off.
Just remember that if you need to crash dive you really need to stow that thing away:yep::yep:

[-Pv-]

There is no damage modeling on periscope for high speed dive in 3 or 4, but the important thing is the shears are usually the last thing under and when being attacked, you want to get out of sight as fast as possible. When I crash dive, the Ctrl-Delete/Contrl-PageDown are the next keys I hit (even if I think they are already down.)
-Pv-

[Munchausen]

A couple places where "high periscope" is mentioned:

"Clear the Bridge" by O'Kane, page 67.
"Submarine Diary" by Mendenhall, page 181.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I wouldnt use that kind of watch scheme if I could help it. I'd much rather miss a task force than give them a silhouette to shoot at :p

[Takao]

Current Doctrine
Submarines

USF 25(A)

Prepared By
COMMANDER SUBMARINE FORCE, PACIFIC FLEET
FEBRUARY, 1944

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/SS-Doct/index.html

Chapter 1, Section 2:
1222. While cruising on the surface in daylight, the highest periscope should be manned, as an additional lookout station.

[Rockin Robbins]

Good find Takao!

Also mentioned throughout "Thunder Below" by Eugene Fluckey

[M. Sarsfield]

Another post in the Mods forums talks about persicope heights and the attack scope coud be extended 5 feet higher than the observation scope (67.5 ft. vs. 62.5 ft.).

[-Pv-]

Also, the observation scope is larger, sturdier, lets in more light. The trade off is it's easier for the enemy to see.

Until patch 1.4 it didn't seem to matter which scope I used as far as visibility. I just made sure I was using the A close in. Since 1.4 I noticed ships which are easily seen when submerged on the O scope don't show up at all on the A until they get a lot closer. I appreciated this when I discovered it. Also, ships which can be seen on the O scope surfaced, cannot when submerged until they are closer.

Not all the subs have this difference in height. Load em up and check it out.
-Pv-

[Nisgeis]

Also, the attack scope is larger, sturdier, lets in more light. The trade off is it's easier for the enemy to see.


That must be a case of thinking one thing and typing another?

[-Pv-]

Yes, typed this too late at night to catch the error. I was talking about the O scope.
-Pv-

[Cerberus]

Using a periscope whilst surfaced may help you see what's happening above a bank of sea mist.

(I suspect this happens a lot more in warmer waters)

[CDR Resser]

Do it all the time, even right after leaving port. Gives you two more pairs of eyes to spot some juicy target with, or spot one of those marauding aircraft.:up:

Respectfully Submitted;
CDR Resser

[Zayphod]

Current Doctrine
Submarines

USF 25(A)

Prepared By
COMMANDER SUBMARINE FORCE, PACIFIC FLEET
FEBRUARY, 1944

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/SS-Doct/index.html

Chapter 1, Section 2:
1222. While cruising on the surface in daylight, the highest periscope should be manned, as an additional lookout station.



Interesting reading. On this page....
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/SS-Doct/SS-Doct-2.html
....I found this passage:

For peace-time operations or for recognition purposes in war time, use submerged signal gun as prescribed in other instructions.

What in the world is a "submerged signal gun"? :doh:

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

It makes sense using the periscope in rough weather when waves are pounding your tower. I would guess to save his crew from being swept away a skipper would order all below deck and look out through the scope.

[thasaint]

except it'd be extremely difficult to use in rough seas because of the pitching and rolling of the ship

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Yeah, I guess so.

[gimpy117]

would this actually help with the view distance in game? and could an A.I see farther with it??

[CaptainHaplo]

It does not appear to have any effect in game.

[gimpy117]

ok could we make it???

[LukeFF]

except it'd be extremely difficult to use in rough seas because of the pitching and rolling of the ship

American periscopes were gyro-stabilized.

[kylesplanet]

except it'd be extremely difficult to use in rough seas because of the pitching and rolling of the ship

American periscopes were gyro-stabilized.

I had no idea they were gyro-stabilized.:88) Thanks for the info Luke!

[LukeFF]

I had no idea they were gyro-stabilized.:88) Thanks for the info Luke!

Not a problem!

[Sailor Steve]

except it'd be extremely difficult to use in rough seas because of the pitching and rolling of the ship

American periscopes were gyro-stabilized.
And how, exactly, did they accomplish that? I've looked all through the Submarine Periscope Manual http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/pscope/index.htm and can find no reference to any such device. Of course I could easily have missed something. Please show me.

[Able72]

except it'd be extremely difficult to use in rough seas because of the pitching and rolling of the ship
American periscopes were gyro-stabilized. And how, exactly, did they accomplish that? I've looked all through the Submarine Periscope Manual http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/pscope/index.htm and can find no reference to any such device. Of course I could easily have missed something. Please show me.
It's that check-box "Stabalize View".:rotfl:

[LukeFF]

And how, exactly, did they accomplish that? I've looked all through the Submarine Periscope Manual http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/pscope/index.htm and can find no reference to any such device. Of course I could easily have missed something. Please show me.
For the observation periscope (http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/pscope/chap4a.htm#4A):

The submarine periscope Type II is a general purpose instrument of 40-foot nominal length and 7 1/2-inch outer diameter. It is equipped with a tilting head prism capable of elevating the line of sight 74.5 degrees above the horizontal and of correcting for the roll or pitch of the vessel.
And the attack scope (http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/pscope/chap6a.htm#6A):

The submarine periscope Type III is a general purpose instrument of 40-foot nominal length and 7 1/2-inch outer diameter. It is equipped with a tilting head prism capable of elevating the line of sight 45 degrees above the horizontal and of correcting for the roll or pitch of the vessel.

Maybe gyro-stabilized wasn't the correct term, but they were stabilized nonetheless.

[-Pv-]

"would this actually help with the view distance in game? and could an A.I see farther with it??"

"It does not appear to have any effect in game."

I disagree. If you are submerged with the scope up, you will get a "ship spotted" even when you are not using it yourself. Overwise, you would only get radar and sonar contact voices.

View distance is not an advantage in the game. Compared to bridge and TBT views, the scopes are more restricted. The TBT has the highest power in the game. Very handy for spotting other ships before they show up in any other 3D view. Great for seeing the shoreline at long distance. Invaluable for spotting rescue pilot's smoke reliably further away than any other view

[Sailor Steve]

For the observation periscope (http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/pscope/chap4a.htm#4A):

The submarine periscope Type II is a general purpose instrument of 40-foot nominal length and 7 1/2-inch outer diameter. It is equipped with a tilting head prism capable of elevating the line of sight 74.5 degrees above the horizontal and of correcting for the roll or pitch of the vessel.
And the attack scope (http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/pscope/chap6a.htm#6A):

The submarine periscope Type III is a general purpose instrument of 40-foot nominal length and 7 1/2-inch outer diameter. It is equipped with a tilting head prism capable of elevating the line of sight 45 degrees above the horizontal and of correcting for the roll or pitch of the vessel.

Maybe gyro-stabilized wasn't the correct term, but they were stabilized nonetheless.
I've looked the entire article over and over, and the drawings show no mechanism that would automatically stabilize the periscopes, and the text says nothing about how this could be accomplished. I gather from the general descriptions quoted that the tilting head prism was hand-adjusted to account for roll and pitch as best they could, just as it was hand-adjusted to elevate to the maximum line of sight.

[Mav87th]

Another post in the Mods forums talks about persicope heights and the attack scope coud be extended 5 feet higher than the observation scope (67.5 ft. vs. 62.5 ft.).

They do have different heights. But you can not see this in the game as the clip range in the cameras.dat file is "stock" to big. The game clips away anything within close range to the lens, thus your view will not be blocked.

With regards to the "gyro stabilizing" - are you sure that the text is not only describing that the head could be tilted (manualy) to compensate for roll and pitch ??

[Nisgeis]

I had a look too at the docs and I couldn't see anything about an automatic stabiliser. I couldn't see anything about a manual stabiliser either, so the mystery remains.

I did however find it interesting that the stadimeter had a second mode, where the stadimeter could be turned 90 degrees and used to put the bow on the stern to read the target's course. That could be useful.