New Olympic sport - Bashing Beijing!

[bookworm_020]

The acitivists are off and racing. Just don't ask where the starters gun is pointed!:huh:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/bashing-beijing-the-shame-game-olympics/2008/04/02/1206850964942.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

[Dmitry Markov]

Some silly graphics IMHO. Why all those "freedom fighters" won't find themselves a better job? If they are so eager to create something why don't they produce some pieces of art instead this crap....

Sorry for being emotional

[Steel_Tomb]

Dmitry Markov, I'm not sure why you would be so against these images. I think you underestimate the power of media! I personally think they do a good job of the complete utter discontent the Chinese regime shows for its people. They have every right to speak out against their government, christ its a daily occurrence here! The poster on the left is quite relevant since the "disappearance" of dozens of monks who protested about China's occupation of Tibet. Some of these monks are still in their teens, 15, 17, 20! Perhaps if you didn't enjoy the freedom you do you may feel differently...

Edit, I see you live in Russia. Perhaps you may not understand true freedom then with Putin's cronies in power... perhaps your attitude towards these "freedom fighters" (I'd just call them normal people wanting their own freedom!) stems from your regimes BS talk about Chechnya?

An example of the so called Chinese "justice" system!

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080403/tpl-uk-china-dissident-553508c.html

He's in jail for merely speaking out against communist oppression, his wife is also under house arrest.

[Happy Times]

Dmitry Markov, I'm not sure why you would be so against these images. I think you underestimate the power of media! I personally think they do a good job of the complete utter discontent the Chinese regime shows for its people. They have every right to speak out against their government, christ its a daily occurrence here! The poster on the left is quite relevant since the "disappearance" of dozens of monks who protested about China's occupation of Tibet. Some of these monks are still in their teens, 15, 17, 20! Perhaps if you didn't enjoy the freedom you do you may feel differently...

Edit, I see you live in Russia. Perhaps you may not understand true freedom then with Putin's cronies in power... perhaps your attitude towards these "freedom fighters" (I'd just call them normal people wanting their own freedom!) stems from your regimes BS talk about Chechnya?

An example of the so called Chinese "justice" system!

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080403/tpl-uk-china-dissident-553508c.html

He's in jail for merely speaking out against communist oppression, his wife is also under house arrest.

Russians have different wiews about these things, but most of them really are content with what they have. Im lately feeling that as long as trade would work between us, im not going to stress about them.

[Dmitry Markov]

Steel_Tomb what do you mean by "true freedom"? I've never met any restrictions from our authorities to do whatever I want (and so never met any restrictions all of my friends and people I know). Of course I'm not a political extremist or a football hooligan. I do not have any intent to go out in the street to burn somebody's property. Look maybe you don't have an adequate info about life in Russia as your press (except Guardian) is tend to make a monster out of my country. Of course life level of most part of our people is lower than in UK. But everybody is free to go whatever he/she wants, do any business he/she likes and to speak anything he/she likes. I repeat - as for myself I always speak what I mean and I've never been in any way pursued by authorities. Of course I try not to offend anyone (not because of fear of authorities but because my upbringing and educational level does not allow me to). I suppose if I would go into street and burn somebody's property, or if I would call my friends and we would walk along the street crying something like "We want Yushenko to be president of Russia" (blocking traffic and causing other troubles to normal people) - then I believe I would have some troubles with law. If that is the "true freedom" we lack in your oppinion.... :hmm: I don't think i loose too much :)

Best Regards

[Steel_Tomb]

Steel_Tomb what do you mean by "true freedom"? I've never met any restrictions from our authorities to do whatever I want (and so never met any restrictions all of my friends and people I know). Of course I'm not a political extremist or a football hooligan. I do not have any intent to go out in the street to burn somebody's property. Look maybe you don't have an adequate info about life in Russia as your press (except Guardian) is tend to make a monster out of my country. Of course life level of most part of our people is lower than in UK. But everybody is free to go whatever he/she wants, do any business he/she likes and to speak anything he/she likes. I repeat - as for myself I always speak what I mean and I've never been in any way pursued by authorities. Of course I try not to offend anyone (not because of fear of authorities but because my upbringing and educational level does not allow me to). I suppose if I would go into street and burn somebody's property, or if I would call my friends and we would walk along the street crying something like "We want Yushenko to be president of Russia" (blocking traffic and causing other troubles to normal people) - then I believe I would have some troubles with law. If that is the "true freedom" we lack in your oppinion.... :hmm: I don't think i loose too much :)

Best Regards

I mean no offense to you, its the government that controls Russia I have a problem with.

Its funny how you mention about the British press (granted some papers here print absolute dross, but for the most part its good stuff), when the Kremlin has removed all free media and replaced it with a propaganda machine. Journalists who find out something the Kremlin doesn't like simply disappear by the KGB...oh, sorry I meant "FSB" (same thing!). The truth doesn't come out in Russia, if the Government doesn't want people to know about it, there will simply be a blackout. It all started with the Kursk incident, Putin saw how damaging the press and free media could be to his so called "democratic" regime. Therefore he simply waved his hand and abolished the free press. Again, living conditions for you and fellow Russian citizens would be much better if the regime would concentrate on serving its population instead of its military. Russia is still a country of super power military status, but third world living conditions. To think about all the money that Russia has received from its energy exports, very little of that seems to go into public services it all goes to the military, or the corrupt billionaires that solidified their monopolies after the collapse of the USSR.

If Russia could become a truly democratic nation, I would be very happy. Russians are very proud of their country, like I imagine you are. Its just a shame that a few people can destroy all that potential.

[Happy Times]

Steel_Tomb what do you mean by "true freedom"? I've never met any restrictions from our authorities to do whatever I want (and so never met any restrictions all of my friends and people I know). Of course I'm not a political extremist or a football hooligan. I do not have any intent to go out in the street to burn somebody's property. Look maybe you don't have an adequate info about life in Russia as your press (except Guardian) is tend to make a monster out of my country. Of course life level of most part of our people is lower than in UK. But everybody is free to go whatever he/she wants, do any business he/she likes and to speak anything he/she likes. I repeat - as for myself I always speak what I mean and I've never been in any way pursued by authorities. Of course I try not to offend anyone (not because of fear of authorities but because my upbringing and educational level does not allow me to). I suppose if I would go into street and burn somebody's property, or if I would call my friends and we would walk along the street crying something like "We want Yushenko to be president of Russia" (blocking traffic and causing other troubles to normal people) - then I believe I would have some troubles with law. If that is the "true freedom" we lack in your oppinion.... :hmm: I don't think i loose too much :)

Best Regards

I mean no offense to you, its the government that controls Russia I have a problem with.

Its funny how you mention about the British press (granted some papers here print absolute dross, but for the most part its good stuff), when the Kremlin has removed all free media and replaced it with a propaganda machine. Journalists who find out something the Kremlin doesn't like simply disappear by the KGB...oh, sorry I meant "FSB" (same thing!). The truth doesn't come out in Russia, if the Government doesn't want people to know about it, there will simply be a blackout. It all started with the Kursk incident, Putin saw how damaging the press and free media could be to his so called "democratic" regime. Therefore he simply waved his hand and abolished the free press. Again, living conditions for you and fellow Russian citizens would be much better if the regime would concentrate on serving its population instead of its military. Russia is still a country of super power military status, but third world living conditions. To think about all the money that Russia has received from its energy exports, very little of that seems to go into public services it all goes to the military.

The Russian people want a strong military, they support this policy.
Putins time has seen enough improvements for the common people that they are happy and believe in the future.

[GlobalExplorer]

I guess it's time for a new sig.

http://youngtibet.com/torch/torchrelaybadge.png

[CCIP]

Edit, I see you live in Russia. Perhaps you may not understand true freedom then with Putin's cronies in power... perhaps your attitude towards these "freedom fighters" (I'd just call them normal people wanting their own freedom!) stems from your regimes BS talk about Chechnya?

bah, I couldn't steer away.

Not to defend Russia's regime or position here, but 1) I've lived in both the "East" and West, and I'm not sure you uderstand true freedom either; 2) I've done a rather large amount of research on Chechnya, and while the Russian government had indeed bent backwards to justify the unjustifyable costs of the war, I'm afraid most of the BS regarding the "freedom fighters" has been decidedly flowing from the Western media.

[Steel_Tomb]

Edit, I see you live in Russia. Perhaps you may not understand true freedom then with Putin's cronies in power... perhaps your attitude towards these "freedom fighters" (I'd just call them normal people wanting their own freedom!) stems from your regimes BS talk about Chechnya?

bah, I couldn't steer away.

Not to defend Russia's regime or position here, but 1) I've lived in both the "East" and West, and I'm not sure you uderstand true freedom either; 2) I've done a rather large amount of research on Chechnya, and while the Russian government had indeed bent backwards to justify the unjustifyable costs of the war, I'm afraid most of the BS regarding the "freedom fighters" has been decidedly flowing from the Western media.

None of us have "true freedom", because we're still bound by law set up by the government. However, "freedom" is something in much shorter supply in Russia with the restrictions placed upon its media, and the way in which the Kremlin has its dirty hands on every single area of the economy and everyday life. So no, I don't know what "true freedom" is, but I've got a damned better idea when I'm able to criticize my government without being locked up and having the key thrown away.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Steel_Tomb what do you mean by "true freedom"? I've never met any restrictions from our authorities to do whatever I want (and so never met any restrictions all of my friends and people I know). Of course I'm not a political extremist or a football hooligan. I do not have any intent to go out in the street to burn somebody's property. Look maybe you don't have an adequate info about life in Russia as your press (except Guardian) is tend to make a monster out of my country. Of course life level of most part of our people is lower than in UK. But everybody is free to go whatever he/she wants, do any business he/she likes and to speak anything he/she likes. I repeat - as for myself I always speak what I mean and I've never been in any way pursued by authorities. Of course I try not to offend anyone (not because of fear of authorities but because my upbringing and educational level does not allow me to). I suppose if I would go into street and burn somebody's property, or if I would call my friends and we would walk along the street crying something like "We want Yushenko to be president of Russia" (blocking traffic and causing other troubles to normal people) - then I believe I would have some troubles with law. If that is the "true freedom" we lack in your oppinion.... :hmm: I don't think i loose too much :)

Best Regards
Hey Dmitry,

I can't say anything about life in Russia, but it does seem to me any journalist or ex government official (basically anybody who the media will pay attention to if they talk) will get themselves myseriously whacked if they say anything bad enough about Putin & Co.

PD

[Dmitry Markov]

There is America-payed FM radio station "Echo of Moscow" still intact and it seems it always will be no matter what they say. Also there are a lot of newspapers such as "Vedomosti", "Novaya Gazeta" and so on. All of them share views from rather critical to near radical anti-Putin ("Echo of Moscow"). Nobody is going to close them. Some critical material you may usually find on pages of RBC (russian business consulting). You can't say that every one criticising Putin immediately goes to jail. It's completely not what's going on. And still our life is much better than what was in 90-s. In every single aspect.

Best Regards.

[GlobalExplorer]

You can't say that every one criticising Putin immediately goes to jail.

Of course, there have been cases of people who did not go to jail immediately.

It's completely not what's going on. And still our life is much better than what was in 90-s. In every single aspect.

The so called russian soul.

A customer asks at a shop, 'What's this, you don't have any bread again?'
'That's not true! There's no bread in the shop opposite. We don't have meat.'

[August]

Some don't go to jail at all, they're hit by a disease called "bullet in the neck" or something like that.

Like a radioactive cocktail?

[Tchocky]

Ha, the Olympics. A level playing field for all people. In China.


Ha.

[STEED]

Nuke China. :D

[GlobalExplorer]

Its all well comrades.

These ljudy (people) were acting out of their own accord - nobody forced them to talk bad about tovarysh Putin. If you're not going to complain, nothing can happen to you. You will be safe.

So we need not fear. The party doesn't harm people without a reason.

[Dmitry Markov]

However, "freedom" is something in much shorter supply in Russia with the restrictions placed upon its media, and the way in which the Kremlin has its dirty hands on every single area of the economy and everyday life.

Absolutely nonsense! I've never ever met any person who have felt "dirty hands of Kremlin" on "every single area of his/her everyday life". Or please tell what you mean by saying about those "areas".

Seems you just cannot take into account that there ARE people who are every single day talking VERY bad of Putin and they are not in jail, they are not beeing shot into neck, and what's more - nobody is going to kill them or put into jail. That's what I've been trying to tell you in my last post.

By the way I am not trying to say that I have nothing to complain. Taxes law, corrupt officials (but not every one of them are corrupt), "point building" that changes well-known faces of our cities (especially Moscow and Saint Petersburg, but that is not only Russian problem - I saw the same process in Kiev too), inept Ministry of Culture and so on... But not the lack of freedom :)

I cannot agree with you on that case. Though I am open for constructive discussion.

Best Regards!

[GlobalExplorer]

Seems you just cannot take into account that there ARE people who are every single day talking VERY bad of Putin and they are not in jail, they are not beeing shot into neck, and what's more - nobody is going to kill them or put into jail.

Dmitry Markov, as you seem to be at least a bit naive, I have collected some links for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya_assassination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko_poisoning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry_Kasparov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Khodorkovsky

[Dmitry Markov]

From the beginning:

1. Politkovskaya was a renegade. While our soldiers were fighting with bandits in Chechnya she wrote tones of pro-Basaev's crap. She was talking about "brave highland warriors who fight for their independence". Look if your country has a fight somwhere you would support your army or the enemy? IMHO the guys who choose the last may be of some interest for qualified psychiatrist. After her conduct during war in Chechnya she couldn't have been taken seriously.

2. Litvinenko was a renegade too. He was selling his country. He was corrupt agent and his turning towards Berezovsky shows that completely (As you don't know maybe Berezovsky was one of those whose money helped to rise Doudaev's regime in Chechnya). But I think that if our spec ops have really retired him - they should have done it with more elegance - not to make such a noise of this operation. And better - he should have been taken back home to stand before Tribunal. Only thing I can blame our State in this case - for being ineffective in gathering investigation materials. But maybe this was impossible because Litvinenko was not a lamb - being criminal he was also a trained agent and and he wiped out his tracks as well as he could. In any case he has broken oath and there is an oppinion that he has got what he deserved.

3. As for Garry Casparov... Have you ever read what he says? It would be interesting to know oppinion of competent psychiatrist on his account too. And of course I cannot respect the subject who, pretending to be Russian leader, speaks English on his meetings... Whom he is adressing to? He and the likes of him would never gain any moral support until they would offer a constructive program. The only thing they do is their stupid "marсhes of discordant" (марши несогласных). They only criticise and criticise but when they would tell us how they are going to make our life better?

4. Hodorkovsky case is more complicated and there are some questions to our State. First of all he is most likely a thief and he is in jail for being thief. His company is guilty in concealment of taxable income in trilions of rubles (billions of dollars). What is worse they were arranging assasinations of concurents and mere people who were somehow preventing them from obtaining more concessions. What I don't like in this history? Well Hodorkovsky is definitely not the only one who gathered his wealth in such an unjust way. But he was the only one who went to jail. Why? Because he tried to make his way into state power. He began to buy local officials of higher and higher rank. Everyone in big business does it but Hodorkovsky has overstepped some line that in couple with his being №1 Russian billionaire made him an easy object for show trial. The other two evil ones Berezovsky and Gusinsky (strangely all their last names are ended with "sky" :) ) are unfortunately abroad. But what for the others who are home? They are not being facing the trial. Does that mean that the State made a deal with criminals of first wave of our new billionaires? I would never believe that our Office of Public Prosecutor couldn't have found any materials about tax concealment or fraud to imprison the remnants if it had its will. So we see double standart approach :nope: But again we cannot blame the State for imprisoning Hodorkovsky. We can blame it for he is the only one.

Another interesting thing is for dealing with those "marсhes of discordant". First stone flies into garden of the ones who organize those marches. a) Their choice of the places for their flash mobs could have been more rational. Now it seems that they try to do everything to annoy people around: instead of coming into a park or some other place where they would not disturb everyday life they choose to come to central streets and squares, blocking the traffic, dropping garbage. They never ask for permission to do all that and they cry about end of free speach when officials try to stop them.
b) There are is one simple rule of making flash mobs that are being taught at schools on Fundamentals of Survival lessons (there is such object in Russian schools) : an action should never change its format. If it is a meeting - it should remain a meeting, if it is a march - it should remain a march. What was made in St Petersburg: at first it was announced that an action would be a meeting. The public gathered, than they suddenly decided that they want to march the streets... Police is trying to stop the crowd, the crowd cries that the Police are fascists (you need to have in mind that for Russian to be called fascist is a very hard offence because every family have suffered a loss in WWII) and that they are "feedom fighters". The Police are getting angry and then it comes to blows.

And here flies a stone into the garden of local officials:

a) The number of Police that are engaged (about 1000) is twice as more than the number of march members (about 500).
b) The type of Police forces is wrong - thay are OMON (Police special forces). They come in full ammunition with helmets heavy bucklets and they stand there under hot sun rays for hours during what was going to be there holiday.
When stupid march leaders are calling for crowd to go into streets from the square officials make a decision to block the entrance into square so the crowd could not brake through into the city.
You must take into account that this is a holiday and there are a lot of common people in the square too who are not taking part in the action and now they are blocked along with the flash mob guys.
Then action leaders are calling for their listeners to force the lines of OMON. They try to do so calling the OMON "fascists". After that the fight begins in which suffer innocent people who weren't let to get out of there.
Seems that both sides were acting to inflict a vexation from the common people. And they both had made a lot of mistakes.

Best Regards!

[Dmitry Markov]

I've been writing previous post being in hurry so I would edit it a bit :) There maybe some grammar mistakes. Sorry.

Best Regards

[GlobalExplorer]

Nothing wrong with your grammar from what I can tell.

1. Politkovskaya was a renegade .. After her conduct during war in Chechnya she couldn't have been taken seriously.

The question here was not whether you want to take her her seriously or not.

2. Litvinenko was a renegade too.

So you mean it was a necessary secret service operation? Then I must say it was very badly executed.

3. As for Garry Casparov...

Ok here I must admit to you that no one here - including myself - knows what he actually says. The fact that he is "pro West" - which we usually associate with positive things like free speech, fair elections and free trade - is enough that people laybel him with the "good guy" stereotype.

However, I assume someone with his intelligence should be taken seriously.

4. Hodorkovsky case .. So we see double standart approach.

"Double standard" is a fitting term. That was a main criticism of the new russia from the beginning.

As to the марши несогласных. You lost me on this one. And I would like to warn your arguments are exactly the same that have been used every time a regime wants to suppress the demonstration right (and thereby freedom of speech): that the demonstrators started the violence on innocent people etc.

Anyway. I agree with you that we western believe too much what the TV tells us about Russia, and the TV works on extreme simplifications. But at least our TV is independent, at least politically (economically it is not).

But maybe you have misconceptions about us, too. We are not only thinking in black white terms about your country. Of course a lot people here are bashing Putin because we think he made the elections a farce. But we also cannot deny that he is one of the most successful russian politicians ever. And that possibly he acts on the rationale that it's better to keep power by undemocratic means, lest it is wrung from his hands by the people who are not acting in the interest of the russian people. Like in ancient Greece a dictator was often seen as the saviour of a city. The verdict on Putin is not spoken, and I must admit I always found him a damn impressive man. Is that what you mean?

In fact it's a pity we did not start an own threat. I would actually find it interesting to discuss about Putins Russia, state cult like the наши movement, and such things.

Пока!

[GlobalExplorer]

And on second thought, you are doing yourself a bad service if you stand in defense of China.

No one, I repeat no one would discuss a boycott if the Olympics were in Moscow. The problems in China are on a completely different scale - in China a human life isn't worth anything - it really makes no sense to throw Russia and China in the same pot. Even the Soviet regime was disgusted by chinese methods as far back as the 60's - which led to the famous schism in the red camp.

[bookworm_020]

IT doesn't pay to be a torch bearer for this games

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/protesters-try-to-put-out-olympic-flame/2008/04/07/1207420237004.html

[Steel_Tomb]

Shame they didn't smash the torch into a hundred little pieces. It would seem you can only REALLY protest when the government likes it. So much pussy footing over china. Wish brown would actually grow some balls hes a waste of bloody space at the moment. an apeaser in every sense of the word!

[Skybird]

i just say two words:

use waterbombs

[Dmitry Markov]

1. Politkovskaya.
Most unlikely she was assassinated by an order of someone in FSB. They are not SO stupid.Most wise conduct towrds her was to let her live and write any crap she wanted. As I've said no one here cared for her at all (except Garry Casparov maybe...). And it was a conduct of authorities untill her death... Putin once said that this murder is a crime towards State and I agree with him on this case.

2. Litvinenko

So you mean it was a necessary secret service operation? Then I must say it was very badly executed.

That was my point. If only it realy was an intelligence operation. There are a lot of other versions and I would not take Scotland-Yard's one as the only true. Anyway again it would be much better to bring this man home to face a trial.

3. Casparov

Garry Kimovich better stayed a champion chess player. He is inept as politician. I West wants to improve itself in eyes of Russian people it'd better chose another figure. Everything he says and does is a complete farce. In couple with the fact that he is being Western-payed all of this won't make him dominant influence.
Again all he does is that he says "Putin is bad". But who is good? Okay we'll throw away Putin but what's next? What is the program that would make our life better? Garry Kimovich never says. He doesn't have any program. Than what's all his hysteria is for?
Have you ever heard Bobby Fisher? They are both of the same field - chess players :|\\

4. Maybe you didn't understand what my point on marches is - I tried to say that both sides do wrong. Casparov's guys do everything to begin struggle, officials are inept in avoiding it.

Again - have you saw any such march with your own eyes? I happened to see one in Moscow.

There were Casparov's guys along with "Nazional-Bolsheviks" of Limonov (never heard of him?) - about 500 total (population of Moscow is 10 500 000 officialy so you see how "strong" their movement is). There were about 1500 Policemen (OMON mostly). And even more photographers.
Well, those "march" guys were crying something for some time, then they tried to break through the Police lines. Police worked fast and effective (not like in Petersburg) and very soon it was over. Remembering '93 Police worked very gentle but that didn't prevent Casparov from crying about "Police used dogs who teared innocent unarmed people..." actually I didn't see any dog...

As for making elections a farce... Well it really was a farce but not because Putin has suppressed the opposition. The fact is there is no opposition in Russia that has a platform and which is capable of getting support from the people. There is no one to believe among the opposition. Nobody has proven himself worthy of people's trust. Nobody offers an alternative. And unfortunately it is one of the weak point of our State today as the opponents can proclaim "end of democracy" and other slogans which are easy to form public oppinion. I understand that it is abnormal situation but it's us - we are all abnormal here :)

[GlobalExplorer]

There were Casparov's guys along with "Nazional-Bolsheviks" of Limonov (never heard of him?) - about 500 total (population of Moscow is 10 500 000 officialy so you see how "strong" their movement is). There were about 1500 Policemen (OMON mostly). And even more photographers. Well, those "march" guys were crying something for some time,

But what was the something they were shouting? It might be important to know!

As for making elections a farce... Well it really was a farce but not because Putin has suppressed the opposition. The fact is there is no opposition in Russia that has a platform and which is capable of getting support from the people.

But thats exactly what I am saying. The opposition gets suppressed already before it can act as opposition - they get no platform, they get no space in the media, they are prevented from participating in the elections, their demonstrations are dissolved before people like you can understand what they are shouting, they get accused of supporting the chechnian terrorists and some of them fall ill with lead poisoning.

Besides there was a Breshnev joke that went like: "No, in the USSR there is no opposition. Do you see any?"

[GlobalExplorer]

Shame they didn't smash the torch into a hundred little pieces. It would seem you can only REALLY protest when the government likes it. So much pussy footing over china. Wish brown would actually grow some balls hes a waste of bloody space at the moment. an apeaser in every sense of the word!

Yes. If the flame went off in front of the whole world, that would make my day.

The chinese paid millions and millions to get their propaganda show - so I think they deserve to get something for their money. Also f_ck the IOC. These greedy bastards have sold out the olympic idea. Celebrating gold medals while 10 km away people are slowly dying in interrogation cellars? While the chinese do their little apartheid thing in Tibet? Nuts!

EDIT: Vive la France!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7334545.stm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080407/ts_afp/chinaunresttibetrightsfranceoly2008

[peterloo]

I found myself in quite an embarassing position these days.

Despite the fact that I'm going against what the Chinese government does these days, I feel that some of the people out there are acting against Chinese collectively, which, of course, sadden me


Yes. If the flame went off in front of the whole world, that would make my day.


If I were a foreigner, I would definitely avocate putting out the flame with a fire extinguisher, in the same burtal way as how the government officials treat some of the protesters or so called "counter-revolutionists"

Yet, if I draw this parallel to an incident happened in the past, I would have different points of view.
The torch ceremony is seen by some as controversal. During one incident in the 1956 Summer Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Summer_Games) in Melbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne), nine Australian students, most notably Barry Larkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Larkin_%28Olympics%29), staged a hoax during the relay when the torch entered Sydney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney). The students wanted to protest against what they saw as "Too much reverence," to the flame, considering the Nazi origins. Larkin pretended to be an Olympic athlete, carring a fake torch made out of a burning pair of underpants and a plum pudding can on the end of a chair leg. He presented it to the mayor of Sydney, Pat Mills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Mills), and escaped before anyone realised he was an imposter.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_fire#cite_note-7)

How would you feel if you were a German or the Sydney mayor, how would you feel if someone pulled out such a trick on you and embarass you in front of the public?

Although Olympic is always promoted as "Politics free", some elements or traces of politics can be found in it. The full support of Olympic by the British leaders is clearly a classical example.


The chinese paid millions and millions to get their propaganda show - so I think they deserve to get something for their money.
If you were IOC, you would definite BAR the country from hosting the event unless they had invested a large sum of money to make you happy, wouldn't you?
Undoubtedly, all politics are around of the main issue ~ benefit. If there is benefit, everything is OK. If not, vice versa.

[peterloo]

I found myself in quite an embarassing position these days.

Despite the fact that I'm going against what the Chinese government does these days, I feel that some of the people out there are acting against Chinese collectively, which, of course, sadden me

[quote]
Yes. If the flame went off in front of the whole world, that would make my day.

If I were a foreigner, I would definitely avocate putting out the flame with a fire extinguisher, in the same burtal way as how the government officials treat some of the protesters or so called "counter-revolutionists"

Yet, if I draw this parallel to an incident happened in the past, I would have different points of view.
The torch ceremony is seen by some as controversal. During one incident in the 1956 Summer Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Summer_Games) in Melbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne), nine Australian students, most notably Barry Larkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Larkin_%28Olympics%29), staged a hoax during the relay when the torch entered Sydney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney). The students wanted to protest against what they saw as "Too much reverence," to the flame, considering the Nazi origins. Larkin pretended to be an Olympic athlete, carring a fake torch made out of a burning pair of underpants and a plum pudding can on the end of a chair leg. He presented it to the mayor of Sydney, Pat Mills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Mills), and escaped before anyone realised he was an imposter.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_fire#cite_note-7)

How would you feel if you were a German or the Sydney mayor, how would you feel if someone pulled out such a trick on you and embarass you in front of the public?

Although Olympic is always promoted as "Politics free", some elements or traces of politics can be found in it. The full support of Olympic by the British leaders is clearly a classical example.


The chinese paid millions and millions to get their propaganda show - so I think they deserve to get something for their money. If you were IOC, you would definite BAR the country from hosting the event unless they had invested a large sum of money to make you happy, wouldn't you?
Undoubtedly, all politics are around of the main issue ~ benefit. If there is benefit, everything is OK. If not, vice versa.


OK, the main point for me is that, I HATE massive generalization. 1 government improperly handling the event = 1.2 billion morons or ****ers

[bookworm_020]

The torch ceremony is seen by some as controversal. During one incident in the 1956 Summer Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Summer_Games) in Melbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne), nine Australian students, most notably Barry Larkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Larkin_%28Olympics%29), staged a hoax during the relay when the torch entered Sydney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney). The students wanted to protest against what they saw as "Too much reverence," to the flame, considering the Nazi origins. Larkin pretended to be an Olympic athlete, carring a fake torch made out of a burning pair of underpants and a plum pudding can on the end of a chair leg. He presented it to the mayor of Sydney, Pat Mills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Mills), and escaped before anyone realised he was an imposter.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_fire#cite_note-7)
How would you feel if you were a German or the Sydney mayor, how would you feel if someone pulled out such a trick on you and embarass you in front of the public?


It's still considered to be one of the best jokes ever pulled during an Olympics here in Australia, at least we did it ourselves!

I know that the IOC were nervous when the Greeks did the global torch relay in 2004, but were surprised how well it went and they allowed the Chinese to do it as well. I think they be the last time it happens

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/protests-spark-torch-relay-chaos/2008/04/07/1207420302060.html

Does anyone have a timetable of were it will land? I don't think it will get a good reception anywhere it goes.

[Tchocky]

It's great to see people getting up in arms about something.
Even in Paris :p

[peterloo]

Does anyone have a timetable of were it will land? I don't think it will get a good reception anywhere it goes.
Yes, it is released. Check out here
http://torchrelay.beijing2008.cn/en/journey/
Although it does not tell you when will the torch arrive into a particular city, you can still calculate it yourself, today in Paris, so tomorrow San Franciso, and so on

I just feel that they released the timetable late, perhaps in an attempt for not allowing the protesters organise themselves by giving them limited time. Yet, if we consider the protest in France and UK, this has failed.

Finally the protest stuff, based on Beijing's track record and her unwillingness to face her history, I'm afraid that protests will break out in most of the countries. The diplomants of the countries within the route faces the greatest trouble - they cannot let the torch extinguish and let the protesters embarass Beijing freely and out of control, which will result in great diplomatic trouble, but they cannot ban the protests either.

[Trex]

How would you feel if you were a German or the Sydney mayor, how would you feel if someone pulled out such a trick on you and embarass you in front of the public?

Not sure about Sydney, but if it were Berlin c. 1936, it would have been a good idea there too.

Right should not be left to go alone into the dark night.

[Steel_Tomb]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080408/tpl-uk-china-tibet-43a8d4f.html

Typical behaviour of the Chiese communist government. Willing to blame everyone else but themselves. If they hadn't been so blunt and suspicious of their doing's in Tibet its likely that this wouldn't happen. I have to laugh at the propaganda though, "Tibet independence seperatist forces" makes us sound like bloody militia lol. We are normal people who have a voice, unlike in china where that voice has been brutally ripped out!

I wish a quick death to communism, China would be so prosperous if it weren't for that arcane failed ideology!

[peterloo]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200804...t-43a8d4f.html (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080408/tpl-uk-china-tibet-43a8d4f.html)

Typical behaviour of the Chiese communist government. Willing to blame everyone else but themselves. If they hadn't been so blunt and suspicious of their doing's in Tibet its likely that this wouldn't happen. I have to laugh at the propaganda though, "Tibet independence seperatist forces" makes us sound like bloody militia lol. We are normal people who have a voice, unlike in china where that voice has been brutally ripped out!

I wish a quick death to communism, China would be so prosperous if it weren't for that arcane failed ideology!

I believe it is mainly because the Chinese government failed to forsee such a event, with such a ferocity. When Tibet had the protest started, the local government dared not make such a important decision, to banish by force, or allow them to continue. They asked the povience government, and then the central government.

As what I'd said, the government and leaders failed to forcast such an incident. So they didn't prepare any plans to handle the event in the case it break out. As a result, they resorted to their old way, unfortunately.

[Skybird]

Peterloo, as a German I must remind you that Germany, this country I live in, has left behind the tyranny it once has born, while China's party-regime still is stuck in the midst of it. That's why I don't pay respect to the Chinese officials or a Chinese mayor being embarrassed by a Olympics hoax like you posted about, and that is why such a hoax in case of Australia did not do any damage, and wouldn't not do any damage in Germany these days. But in china, the person doing that hoax probably would end with years in prison, or worse.

I see that "face" is an important issue in Chinese culture and mentality, but I also think it is hopelessly exaggerated beyond the borders to ridicule. My opinion may not change that, but when even the most brutal, barbaric crimes and tortures and killings become an object that runs second in importance to save the torturers or killer's "face", then I know that some most essential priorities are totally distorted, and that by the result the sensitivity to "face"-issues is simply wrong. For example, justice is far more impornt than saving face. Or freedom. Or peace. A mind thinking that war could be waged to save one's face, that freedom can be turned into dictatorship in order to save one's face, and justice can be turned into injustice to prevent loosing one'sS face, is a sick, brutal and deeply perverted mind. It's the mind of a criminal, murderous gangster. and that pretty much sums up what I think about the Chinese governments since Mao. And i explicitly include the government of the present.

I often said that regarding various things and issues, Europeans as well as Americans will need to accept that they have to change, from politics over economics to missionary spirit. I tell China the same: some things in your cultural self-understanding you have to change. America is not the standard to which all civilisation must compare. the EU is not the one global standard to which all civilisation must compare.

And China isn't such a central standard either.

Germen newspaper Die Welt just reported that the IOC is seriously considering to ban the tradition of the torch altogether now. And the German IOC also sees increasing debate wether one is right to forbid athletes free speech and saying their opinion on Tibet while being in China. In the end, a sports commitee and a group of bureaucrats is not in the legal position to partly suspend key items of our nation'S constitution. It tells something about their glorious self-perception that they think they have a right to do so. The voices saying this order" has to be taken back and has to be limited to forbidding participation in protests marches, are increasing in number. I hope that the decision gets taken back indeed, and that other nations follow. I also hope that the Chinese regime will deeply regret the day when they decided to sign in for the competition to win the games in 2008, for they obviously expected that all world would agree to their interpretation of freedom: to suppress all anti-Chinese protests, and keep the games running as a meaningless farce with not the smallest Olympic spirit in them, that got killed by commerce and Chinese brutality in close cooperation. This year's games will the greatest lie of games in the history of the Olympics after WWII. I hope it all boils up and away and blow up right in their faces.

And you, Peterloo, must only feel targeted by my attack against "China" in so far as you support and back the official Chinese position regarding the Olympics and Tibet and the party's interpretation of freedom. And if you do not back the government's actings and positions, you have no reason to feel offended by me, for you do not belong to the addressed receivers, then - and if these feel offended, I couldn't care less, for I do not use to "save my face" by hiding it behind a reflecting visor, like Chinese policies use to do. In the end it runs all down to just this: the Chinese government demanding not to be correctly held responsible for the crimes it commits, and labelling that demand as a question of politeness.

Now considering the Nuremberg trials being run with an attitude of allowing the Nazi defendants to "save their faces". Absurd.

[Steel_Tomb]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200804...t-43a8d4f.html (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080408/tpl-uk-china-tibet-43a8d4f.html)

Typical behaviour of the Chiese communist government. Willing to blame everyone else but themselves. If they hadn't been so blunt and suspicious of their doing's in Tibet its likely that this wouldn't happen. I have to laugh at the propaganda though, "Tibet independence seperatist forces" makes us sound like bloody militia lol. We are normal people who have a voice, unlike in china where that voice has been brutally ripped out!

I wish a quick death to communism, China would be so prosperous if it weren't for that arcane failed ideology!
I believe it is mainly because the Chinese government failed to forsee such a event, with such a ferocity. When Tibet had the protest started, the local government dared not make such a important decision, to banish by force, or allow them to continue. They asked the povience government, and then the central government.

As what I'd said, the government and leaders failed to forcast such an incident. So they didn't prepare any plans to handle the event in the case it break out. As a result, they resorted to their old way, unfortunately.

They underestimated the taste of freedom, the Soviet leaders made the same mistake after Glasnost and Perestroika. The people had tasted a sample of freedom, and people don't give that up lightly. Funny how history repeats itself so frequently. It would seem people don't learn from their predecesors mistakes!

[Trex]

Skybird - Well said.

[peterloo]

I would like to respond to Skybird's post (sorry as I can't quote due to its long length. Combined with the length of my post, it would make this post unnecessarily long)

Skybird, you get the point that "face" is really quite an important stuff in all Chinese, especially for the leaders. Admitting errors is considered to be the ultimate face loser these days.

I don't mind admitting errors, and I believe most other Chinese don't as well as we don't put excessive emphasis one the face stuff. All of us do care about our face but we will not do it in an overdosed way. We have an idiom saying that if we can know our mistakes and if we can bring out change, this will be one of the best things in the world

Unfortunately, the government, especially the leaders, who gained some power by trade, by holding the USA bonds, by its ballistic missiles inventory, become so arrogant that they do not, under any circumstances, admit errors that they had made. Shifting the burden of the mistake to the other seems to be one of the ways to solve problem.s

IF you read my first post here, I made a clear statement that, I don't agree with the way how Beijing is handling this crisis.

But I'm afraid that there are some sort of massive generalization here and in other foreign communities, and this type of generalization, of course, will not hurt me as long as I choose to remain annoymonous. But, this type of generalization will bring out mis-understanding between Chinese and Westerner who avocate peace and freedom. This misunderstanding is dangerous since we all know that crisis and wars evolves from misunderstandings.

I am not trying to defend the Chinese government, after You ,skybird, proofed me how improper is the government has been when trying to handle the Tibet crisis in a post before. I am NOT trying to say that Beijing is all right these days, however, I just feel that some of the misunderstandings should be resolved. This is especially important when the globalization is the global trend.

[CptSimFreak]

People sure do like to throw words like 'freedom' around without even knowing what that word means. :down:

[Skybird]

China loses control of the games:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-546156,00.html

Western PR professionals have already developed a name for China's so-called journey of harmony, which is turning out to be such a dramatic embarrassment for Beijing. They have dubbed the Olympic Torch the "Flame of Shame." Still, all calls for boycotts have so far been half-hearted and have been met with fears of offending the growing world power, eagerness to protect business investments and a disinclination to disappoint Olympic athletes. But the athletic event has already lost its allure -- the hope that the cosmopolitan celebration would finally establish China as a full-fledged member of the modern world has evaporated.

It is cynism at it's maximum that IOC rules forbid any political statement inside the athletes' Olympic camps, while the whole show is being run as a political PR and propaganda show by the hosting nation for which these rules obviously are not valid. These will be the most political games since the Olympics 1936, even the double-boycott 1980 and 1984 was not so upheated, I would say. And it is naive to say in general the Olympics are not political. Sports very often is the continuation of politics by other means. and if sports is used to explicitly show that it is unpolitical - that intention itself again turns it into a political event nevertheless. International sports not being political is as impossible as is the attemnpt not to communicate - every social scientist and social sciences disciplines agrees on and knows that it is impossible not to communicate. Politicians are heavily involved with sports events, trying to boost their profile by seeking closeness to successful athletes and teams, and what else if not politics is it if heads of state coinsider to travel to the opening ceremony - or now are boycotting it? germany'S president and chancellor both have said they will not go to Bejing. the president explicitly referred to the human rights situation when explaing his decision. and that athletes also say the games are not political - well, it is selfish, of course, but also: naive.

I would wish German TV would not do any coverage of the games, especially no live coverage. I myself will not jump to the TV and switch off the daily news when they come to sports, but I will not switch on any dedicated Olympics program. I could only hope that so many people will do like i do so that the TV audience quotas are so low that they are a financially very costly desaster for the broadcasters. But that hope is illusory only, I know.

[CptSimFreak]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas

Oh no! free media is modifying images to make China look bad....say it isn't so! :damn:

[Trex]

Talk about amateurish. I wonder where in Beijing this was produced.

First, the examples shown should not be taken at face value. I plan to try and dig up copies of those publications to see if they really said what is claims or if this is just another crude forgery. Just one bell-ringer: Beijing banned foreign media from Tibet, so...

Second, those uniforms may not be the standard blue police togs, but they look remarkably like some PRA uniforms which have appeared of late.

The last tripe I've seen like this was produced by the Soviets showing their peaceloving army 'defending itself' after having invaded Czechoslovakia.

Go suck your thumb, kid. Maybe that'll pacify you.

[CptSimFreak]

The last tripe I've seen like this was produced by the Soviets showing their peaceloving army 'defending itself' after having invaded Czechoslovakia.

Go suck your thumb, kid. Maybe that'll pacify you.

In the same way US 'defending itself' in Iraq and Afganistan? :doh:

Both nations are dirty to the core...I've lived there and here....I've seen both versions.....'kid' :nope:

[darius359au]

What amazing about that video is that the Chinese goverment released a video of "Police" marching through Lhasa showing how determined they were to crackdown on unrest , and the "Police" were wearing the exact same uniforms and riot gear - Remember , this was from an Official press release , now their saying that the western media have used faked video with Nepalese Police :o

[Trex]

CptSimFreak - I was not addressing you, rather the producer of this amateurish little comedy. The image produced is that of a small child whining. Sorry if that was not clear.

[Skybird]

I heared a rumour that athletes winning in Beijing and keeping their mouth shut will be rewarded a Chinese order of merit. All other athletes of the competition get an Olympic gold medal as consolation prize. :D

[peterloo]

I heared a rumour that athletes winning in Beijing and keeping their mouth shut will be rewarded a Chinese order of merit. All other athletes of thecompetition get an Olympic gold medal as consolation prize. :D
As what you've pointed out, a rumor. It's best not to spread rumors these days, as they might lead to misunderstandings. You may, still, provide proof to show that this is a genuine action taken.


It is cynism at it's maximum that IOC rules forbid any political statement inside the athletes' Olympic camps, while the whole show is being run as a political PR and propaganda show by the hosting nation for which these rules obviously are not valid.

Looks like Beijing offered some additional benefit to IOC and in return, IOC now bans any public statements in the camps. In that case, BOTH IOC and Beijing seems to be engaging in some sort of hidden transactions

What amazing about that video is that the Chinese goverment released a video of "Police" marching through Lhasa showing how determined they were to crackdown on unrest , and the "Police" were wearing the exact same uniforms and riot gear - Remember , this was from an Official press release , now their saying that the western media have used faked video with Nepalese Police :o


I've heard about this as well. Since Beijing stopped any foreign reporters in regions where unrest were in rife, we don't know whether Beijing is telling the truth, or whether she is lying

History will tell

[AkbarGulag]

Mis-information (or lies, whatever you prefer) is as much in practice in many democracies as it is in authoritarian regimes. There is purely too many examples to quote.

The few friends I have in China never discuss politics, nor do I ever pursue a conversation about politics. Take from that what you like, but the overall impression I get is that they are more interested in getting ahead in life than worrying about repression. Our conversations are always about things that any friend would have with you in normal day to day lives. How is buisness, whats your new appartment like etc.. etc.. If you do not rock the boat, you won't get wet feet. Just like in any country. China is changing rapidly and no one opinion will be able to answer what direction that is, without offending one group or another.

America for example exports hate sites on the internet, I sure don't like it, but hey, whatever suits them I guess. In fact, one hate site from America is one of New Zealands most popular web pages and is politically motivated. It seeks to sway peoples political direction to what can only be described as bigoted and devisive. Go freedom!

I make this point because it seems many people posting in this thread have a very blinkered attitude or merely have an agenda. Something about throwing stones in glass houses anyway :lol:

[Dmitry Markov]

AkbarGulag! Another good post :rock:

Your impression about your Chinese friends is exactly the one my father has about his business trips to China. It's not like it was in CCCP - "everyone are poor and equal but some few have all the wealth".
My father saw throng of people who live good even by European measures. He also saw people who live in poverty even by Tajikistan measures. But the way they look at their status is like: "That's because I show not very much energy to achieve higher results". Very optimistic nation.
That does not mean I excuse what happens in Chinese province Tibet.

But none of us have enough info. From here it seems that both sides are guilty. Monks for starting riots and Government for not being able to deal with this problem without provocating foreign press to start all this fever. What Chinese Government have done and still are doing is like shaking red cloth in front of an angry bull. But Chinese civilisation is more than 5000 years old - they know their ways better... :hmm:
History will tell...

[Skybird]

I heared a rumour that athletes winning in Beijing and keeping their mouth shut will be rewarded a Chinese order of merit. All other athletes of thecompetition get an Olympic gold medal as consolation prize. :D
As what you've pointed out, a rumor. It's best not to spread rumors these days, as they might lead to misunderstandings. You may, still, provide proof to show that this is a genuine action taken.


Good morning, that was a jo-hoke! :lol:

Looks like Beijing offered some additional benefit to IOC and in return, IOC now bans any public statements in the camps. In that case, BOTH IOC and Beijing seems to be engaging in some sort of hidden transactions
Yes, the IOC is very good in that. For money you can buy almost everybody in the West. as I just said in another thread: its not so much about the interest of sport, but the business interest of the IOC. It does not serve the sport - sport serves the IOC.

[Skybird]

From here it seems that both sides are guilty. Monks for starting riots

Yes. How can one dare after decades of supression, genocide, 1- 1.2 million people killed, torture, to start tryiong to use an opportunity to win western medias attention to raise awareness what crime china has commited in Tibet, and still does?


and Government for not being able to deal with this problem without provocating foreign press to start all this fever.
You mean the foreign press that has been completely expelled from Tibet so that only the chinese police'S cameras shall see what is happening, or do you mean that foreign press that shows film material that gets secretely smuggled out of china and was filmed often at maximum danger for the person holding the camera?

What Chinese Government have done and still are doing is like shaking red cloth in front of an angry bull. But Chinese civilisation is more than 5000 years old - they know their ways better... :hmm:
History will tell...
relativistic nonsens, it sounds to me. I am quite aware of how old chinese culture is. I have been educated by principles and ideas some of which have their origin in Chinese culture. the highest most essential form of Buddhism - as I perceive it - has it'S roots in China. I am also aware of this thing that is called culture revolution, where Chinese killed at least 7 million other chinese, and millions were sent into reeducation camps, and the old ways of Chinese culture were tried to be rewritten or deleted. The china of Mao is by far not the logical consequence of 5000 years old traditions, but a violant warping caused by a communist ideologist and brutal tyrant: it was a rape of Chinese cultural history. when you kill every sixth person in a to-be-subjugated region and commit genocide and massmurder and torture monks for carrying a picture of the Dalai Lama with them under their robes by putting wires through their teeths and genitals and then send electricity through them until they have almost lost their brain and their flesh is smoking, or burn women's breasts until a black stump is all that is left becasue they violated the state discipline when demanding freedom, then you can hardly link this up to cultural heights of china like the philosophy o Kung Tse, or Mong Tse, Chuang Tse or Lao Tse. It also gets not compensated by the excellent chinese cuisine. It is and remains to be barbarism - cold, brutal, inhumane.

[Dmitry Markov]

Yes. How can one dare after decades of supression, genocide, 1- 1.2 million people killed, torture, to start tryiong to use an opportunity to win western medias attention to raise awareness what crime china has commited in Tibet, and still does?


But there was a trend to dialoque last years. And monks have chosen very good moment to ruin this in one hour.

You mean the foreign press that has been completely expelled from Tibet so that only the chinese police'S cameras shall see what is happening, or do you mean that foreign press that shows film material that gets secretely smuggled out of china and was filmed often at maximum danger for the person holding the camera?


No, I mean unprofessional state security agency work (sorry I don't know how it is called in China). They should have foreseen this and take measures. Very poor agenture work. Instead Government has acted just like monks (and who is behind them) wanted them to - the worst possible way to solve such things. If state security worked better there would have been no need to expell foreign press and there would have been no violence film material to smuggle.

relativistic nonsens, it sounds to me.

In that case I meant that during their 5000 history "culture revolution" was not the only one period of massacre. There have been periods of dissolvation with massacre and periods of centralisation again with massacre.

I am afraid that if now separatism in China would be supported (and Tibet is not only one problem province - there are Sintzan-Uygur Authonomy and other provinces) - it may brake out into civil war with predictable millions of dead and unpredictable consequences of civil war in a country which has nukes. And this country is a neighbour of mine :o

[Trex]

Some good points there, but I do have a couple of exceptions to what you have said.

And monks have chosen very good moment to ruin this in one hour.

Very true. China is in the world's eye right now - what better time to raise otherwise untouchable grievances?

No, I mean unprofessional state security agency work (sorry I don't know how it is called in China). They should have foreseen this and take measures. Very poor agenture work. Instead Government has acted just like monks (and who is behind them) wanted them to - the worst possible way to solve such things. If state security worked better there would have been no need to expell foreign press and there would have been no violence film material to smuggle.


Sorry, cannot agree. This seems to be difference in basic philosophical views of the world and how it should work. If I understand you correctly, you are saying tha the biggest problem in Tibet was the failure of the Organs to completely repress all protest. (If I am wrong, please correct me.) To myself and many others in those nations with long traditions of the individual having unalienable rights, the main problem in Tibet is the PRC's having created a situation in which massive security operations are necessary in the first place.

As a general rule, any nation with "People's" in its title is not run by or for the people. Any country with the word "Democratic" in its title isn't. Combine them (as in "People's Democratic Republic of ...") and the place is a nightmare.

BTW, their police force (one of them) is the Public Security Bureau. One observer who lived there some years ago stated later that mentioning the PSB in a conversation over dinner was the social equivalent of loudly belching.

In that case I meant that during their 5000 history "culture revolution" was not the only one period of massacre. There have been periods of dissolvation with massacre and periods of centralisation again with massacre.

Very true. In every country with a long history, this has indeed happened. However, it is one thing to look at old history and quite another to look at it happening in one's lifetime.

I am afraid that if now separatism in China would be supported (and Tibet is not only one problem province - there are Sintzan-Uygur Authonomy and other provinces) - it may brake out into civil war with predictable millions of dead and unpredictable consequences of civil war in a country which has nukes. And this country is a neighbour of mine :o

During the Brixton riots in the UK (yes, democracies have riots, too), there was a lovely graffitio on a wall: Violence is the voice of those who cannot be heard! The PRC used to reject the outside world and all of its influences. It has taken the major step of allowing some capitalism and its quality of life has risen dramatically - for some. It has allowed freer contact with the outside world, allowing its citizens to see for themselves (to a limited extent) that things can be better, more free than they are.

Having put the pressure cooker on the stove, there are a number of possible outcomes: 1) The pot explodes. (Bad. You are correct to be worried about the violent dissolution of a nuclear power next door.) 2) The heat is turned down, lowering the pressure. 3) The lid is taken off, allowing the pressure to escape. Options 2 and 3 have been rejected by Beijing. Instead, they have gone for Option 4 - a thicker, stronger pot. That may work for a while, but not forever. Sooner or later they are going to have to do something asides from beat heads. The sooner that happens, the less change there is of a massive explosion.

[Skybird]

No, I mean unprofessional state security agency work (sorry I don't know how it is called in China). They should have foreseen this and take measures. Very poor agenture work. Instead Government has acted just like monks (and who is behind them) wanted them to - the worst possible way to solve such things. If state security worked better there would have been no need to expell foreign press and there would have been no violence film material to smuggle.
I see. Subjugating another people and annihilating it's culture is fine and okay as long as medias cannot take note of it and the suppression happens secretly. Not the injustice is the problem, but the world learning about it taking place.

the monks choosed the time that gave them an opportunity, and that opportunity was Olympia. I can't blame them since they fight for their freedom. Not every Tibetan agrees after half a century of oppression with the Dalai Lama anymore that there should be one nation, but local autonomy for Tibet. the Dalai Lama did not say that because he is convinced of the justice in it. He started to say this because he realises that the Chinese will never give up their occupation and landtaking of Tibet. that he is realistic does not make the Chinese action any less criminal and illegal.

BTW, do we really know it were the monks starting it? There is a non-religious strong faction in Tibet, too. Beijing, a truly materialistic power, hates religion and monks, and in case of Tibet it hates them even more. That they say it were the monks starting the riots, means nothing. They also demonize the Dalai Lama and accuse him of propagating violence and aggression. Can't become any more absurd. One could as well accuse ghandi of having started a war against the peaceful British occupiers who crushed the pacifistic protesters at those salt mines (name I forgot).

I am afraid that if now separatism in China would be supported (and Tibet is not only one problem province - there are Sintzan-Uygur Authonomy and other provinces) - it may brake out into civil war with predictable millions of dead and unpredictable consequences of civil war in a country which has nukes. And this country is a neighbour of mine :o

If they behave there as brutal as they do in Tibet after they occupied it, it is no wonder that people want to get rid of them, hm? Remind you, it is a genocide taking place in Tibet that has cost the life of every sixth Tibetan so far. And tibet was sovereign and independent before the Chinese marched in, so one can hardly argue this is about a state trying to prevent falling apart. that would be like saying a thief just has stolen what belonged to him anyway.

Again, I see myself agreeing with Trex.

[郑现莉]

http://static.scribd.com/profiles/images/1otonxlir4mb1-full.jpg
For a free China!

[peterloo]

Welcome to subsim, 郑现莉

I'm not sure whether you're Chinese, but based on your name, I guess, you're a Chinese living in mainland China.

I'm not going to attack you today, I'm a Chinese as well. Yet, I perfer English to Chinese since my Chinese stinks

You've just done a good job. You realize that we need to bring out a free China and bring out democrazy. This is our dream. Loving China is equivalent to fancying democrazy, isn't it?

For the olympia stuff, I don't think we can interfere much, as Hu and Wen makes the decision, not us. Yet, we can send the message across the internet. Just mind you, the censorship is in rife these days. Be very careful. (I live in Hong Kong, so I'm fortunate and I don't face any oppression for what I say)