I come to realize

[ktrboston]

I have come to realize after couple of tries, I really suck at manual targeting with the U-boot. I have no problems with the U.S. Sub but everytime I am in a U-boot I am firing and they miss and I am at close range between 1500 yards and 1000 yards. They seem to there too late. I know how to get AOB and range and get all the data for a good soultion but alas they seem to miss and I have a good gyroangle, AOB(90) and have the speed. I fire at the appropiate time between 345 and 010. Very Frustrating! I keep a excel patrol log of what I come accross and what I fire and out 14 torpedos that I fired at 3 ships only 4 hit. Very disappointing! And yes the tube doors are open. I seem to do better with the US subs then I do with the German ones.

[Quillan]

Well, if you're missing astern and the tube doors are already open, then I see either one of two things happening:

1) Your data is faulty, and I suspect your speed estimate to be a little too low, or
2) The target is speeding up because they spotted the torpedo or its wake.

How are you determining the target speed? I would not trust the in-game calculation.

[ktrboston]

Well, if you're missing astern and the tube doors are already open, then I see either one of two things happening:

1) Your data is faulty, and I suspect your speed estimate to be a little too low, or
2) The target is speeding up because they spotted the torpedo or its wake.

How are you determining the target speed? I would not trust the in-game calculation.

I do use the nomograph to do estimate and then use the in-game calculations. I will try not to use the in-game and do the only thing that I can do is try, try, try again. Thanks!

[Quillan]

Assuming you have the time, I wouldn't even use the nomograph. There's an easier and more accurate way. Start your stopwatch, and put a mark on the target's position where you start the watch (can be done while paused for accuracy). If you're using Imperial measurements let it run for 3 minutes, or 3 minutes 15 seconds if you're using Metric measurements, then put another mark on the target position. Measure the distance covered by the target. Every hundred yards or meters is 1 knot of speed.

[ktrboston]

I will try that method. Thanks Quillan!

[Rockin Robbins]

It just seems appropriate, and unlike the Europeans, we can use metric and imperial equally well. I can tell you now that there is no bug in the targeting system. The targets also do not seem to accellerate when they see a steam torpedo coming their way as GWX targets will do, especially during the daytime.

Today I have a Tennessee BB and a T3 Tanker bagged, along with three smaller prey. Make sure you get in to about 500 yards if you're missing. That will make any errors less significant. Make sure you use your attack map to check your setup. You'd be surprised how often that saves my hind end.

Take it slow and try to figure out what you're doing wrong. I'm really curious what it could be! Hope you can turn it around quickly.:up:

[ktrboston]

It just seems appropriate, and unlike the Europeans, we can use metric and imperial equally well. I can tell you now that there is no bug in the targeting system. The targets also do not seem to accellerate when they see a steam torpedo coming their way as GWX targets will do, especially during the daytime.

Today I have a Tennessee BB and a T3 Tanker bagged, along with three smaller prey. Make sure you get in to about 500 yards if you're missing. That will make any errors less significant. Make sure you use your attack map to check your setup. You'd be surprised how often that saves my hind end.

Take it slow and try to figure out what you're doing wrong. I'm really curious what it could be! Hope you can turn it around quickly.:up:

Hi Rockin Robbins, from what I noticed they are being fired to late on occasions and other times they are being fired to soon. I think what I am doing wrong is once I take the range, I do it again before I take a shot. What I am unsure on is how many times should you take range before you fire and what range should you stop. I am second guess my self so used to postion keeper. No I am not using metric and I know there is no bug unless the captain has can't shoot straight bug. :rotfl: The one thing that I miss that a modder has done for SH3 and SH4 is the bearing tool around the sub to me it helps.

[Ducimus]

I have come to realize after couple of tries, I really suck at manual targeting with the U-boot. I have no problems with the U.S. Sub but everytime I am in a U-boot I am firing and they miss and I am at close range between 1500 yards and 1000 yards. They seem to there too late. I know how to get AOB and range and get all the data for a good soultion but alas they seem to miss and I have a good gyroangle, AOB(90) and have the speed. I fire at the appropiate time between 345 and 010. Very Frustrating! I keep a excel patrol log of what I come accross and what I fire and out 14 torpedos that I fired at 3 ships only 4 hit. Very disappointing! And yes the tube doors are open. I seem to do better with the US subs then I do with the German ones.


I do better with the US TDC too. I think the primary differences is in the stadimeter and the position keeper. The Stadimeter, i think is much more forgiving then the german counterpart.

[Fortune]

The main difference is the position keeper and that the target angle is not actualized.
In an U-Boat I always get new target data just a few seconds before I fire the torpedo. Because of the missing position keeper the distance is always the same since the last time you are refreshing target data. If everything is correct the PC has the target position even after several minutes(calculating you own speed, too!). The german TDC isn't capable of doing this. Your angle to target/AoB and target speed is calculated. Your own speed and distance NOT. So it's a really good idea to "refresh" all data except target speed a short moment before you shoot. Otherwise you'll fire the torpedo with old/incorrect data!

[Ducimus]

The PK does make things really easy in manual targeting due to its target tracking capabilities. Assuming your initial observations are correct, and the target doesnt change speed or course, you could fire blind and have still hit your target.

Manual targeting, using only the sonar, and the TDC with PK, and hitting something in a pea soup of a fog, is really satisfying.

[Rockin Robbins]

The PK makes data collection a really leisurely deal in a fleet boat. you can collect it in the wrong order or too slowly, doesn't matter as long as the PK is on because it continues to follow the target. In the U-Boat, if you're entering the four parameters for a shot you have to be right snappy about it or you'll miss. I have attempted the German stadimeter, and I hate it as much as the American one.

In the German boat I've shot one torpedo that way. Then to convince myself that maybe I could aim a torpedo I fell back to doing Dick O'Kanes, then remembered an old conversation with aaronblood where he explained the Fast-90, a creation of Wazoo a couple of years back in SH3. I've been doing Fast-90s every since with great success. Why great success? Because I can set up the attack slowly and carefully fifteen or twenty minutes before I shoot. Then all I have to do is drive the boat to the right position (not always easy with these slow U-Boats) and push the buttons. The only thing you can screw up is forgetting to open the torpedo tube door.

OH! The other advantage: you can forget you brought the stadimeter. Use it to amuse any kids you brought along. Am I ready to explain this thing? No. I don't have any screenshots, but I'll do it anyway and fix it later.

Fast-90 U-Boat Targeting

1. Your goal is to shoot from a course 90º from the target track, from a range of 1000 yards or meters or less. For a medium (9 knot) target, we'll be shooting 10º before they reach the zero bearing with steam torpedoes on fast. For electrics we'll shoot 20º before they reach the zero bearing straight in front of us. This will allow the torpedoes to hit pretty squarely and close to a 90º angle. Also, the closer to a 90º strike angle you get, the more error forgiving the process is. I need to insert cool illustration right here.:dead: Oh well.

2. The reason we're doing this is that when you are approaching the target at 90º from his course, the range doesn't even need to be considered. Even the distance from the track is only important to make the shot more accurate. If you're shooting at a nice juicy BB or T3 Tanker, 2000 yards off the track is a very easily hittable shot. Shoot two, hit two and watch 'em sink.

3. Targets can be coming from the left or right. Let's use one coming from the left, because that is slightly more difficult because you have to subtract.:o (Higher math! Run!!!!!!!!!) OK our target is coming left to right. We're shooting a high speed steam torpedo so we're going to shoot 10º before he gets to zero bearing straight in front of us. So go to the attack screen (F6 for those of us with the Trigger Maru superior keyboard layout:arrgh!:, fish it out of the menu bars otherwise) This is where the German TDC is kept. You'll see 4 dials along the bottom of the screen and a button to the right of them. This button does two things: it turns manual TDC input on and off. When manual input is on the lights for the dials turn on. Let's set up the TDC for an attack we'll be doing in about a half hour. (You like this already!)

Turn manual input on. Hit F3 and point your scope at the zero bearing, then return to the attack screen. That first dial on the left side is your shoot bearing, also the periscope bearing when the TDC and periscope are linked later. Unlike the American TDC where bearings are 0 to 359, the German system uses bearing right and bearing left (Bug Links und Bug Rechts). Set that puppy for zero, straight ahead.

Second dial from the left is range in hundreds of meters (or yards). 10 means 1000 meters or 1 km. Set this one to an estimate of the range you'll be shooting from the track. You can double it if you're not sure. This range has nothing to do with the accuracy of your shot. It just puts a torpedo track on the attack map so you can see if your shot makes sense. Don't fret over getting anything perfect here! I told you this was cool!

Third dial from the left is angle on the bow. This guy is always going to be set at 90º. All we have to do is figure out whether it should be right or left. Think of this as "what side of the target am I looking at." Our guy is coming left to right, so we're looking at his starboard (right or recht side). Now if you're a boater, you know green is starboard and red is port (port wine is red), but if you're not, just look over at the bearing dial which says "bug recht" on the green side. This is just like the old multiple guess test in school. Half the answers are in the other questions. Set this needle to 90º right. (If he were coming from the right, we'd set it to 90º left. But he's not so we're not.) Done! This is too easy. Are you sure we can DO THIS????

Fourth dial is speed. Do Quillian's three minute distance thing for imperial. Use three minutes, 15 seconds for metric because a meter is 3.37 inches longer than a yard. Now measure the distance between the points in the unit of your choice. The speed is the number of hundreds of units you find. 700 meters/yards equals seven knots. Point the needle at the speed.

On the right side of your attack screen in a vertical configuration are the torpedo parameters. They're all labeled. If you're using steam torpedoes, make sure you use the fast setting. Set pistol to magnetic. This will detonate on contact also. Depth should be just about the draft of the target.

If you identify the target with the target manual you can find the draft. If not, a depth of 7 meters will blow up just about anything. I like to get under the keel of large targets because the German torpedoes are no more powerful than American ones and don't exactly impress me. I want all the destructive power I can bring to bear. That means an explosion as far below the water as I can arrange.

Ignore spread angle, we don't waste torpedoes!:arrgh!:

Press that red button and the lights to the TDC input dials go off. Your periscope is still pointed at zero and the bearing dial is at zero. We're synchronized. Lets kill something!!!!!

Plot the course of the targets. Then figure a course 90º from that where you will be pointed right at the track at a right angle. We want to get to 1000 yards/meters from the track, slow down to 1 knot and wait for our targets to get to that 10º (or so) before the zero bearing. We'll never lock the target at all. In the U-Boat, the torpedoes will go exactly where we point the scope! (As long as we have linked the scope to the TDC by turning manual input off. The test is "are the dial lights off?" Yes means we're ready) Our scope is continuously updating our TDC with new bearing and AoB, so we can shoot any time we want! I'd shoot sometime between 20º before zero and zero, but it's pretty accurate outside of that too!

Lets do it the way we DIDN'T plan. We're too impatient. The target is only at 345º, 15º left bearing and we have to go to the bathroom. I gotta shoot now!:o Piece of cake. Open two doors. Point the scope at that front crane, about 1/4 of the way back from the bow. Shoot. Point about 1/4 of the way forward of the stern. Select the second tube and shoot. Go to the bathroom, you've got two hits on order!:arrgh!:

So no spreads, no misses, no hurry, no panic, no fuss, no muss. Fast-90. Coolers!!!!!!!:up:

[ktrboston]

Thanks Rockin Robbins, I will try the Fast 90 method. I know of Wazoo webpage that has this and other interesting stuff and will keep that in mind. I was going to share some girl scout cookies with ya but two of my sonar men Wolfgang Amsel and Ludwig Amsel(they are brothers) got into my secret stash and ate them up last night. Those two are aways up to something.:D

[wetwarev7]

I've allways liked this method, but I've never understood why the range doesn't make much difference.

Good tutorial!:up:

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm nursing bruises where another poster said that my very similar Dick O'Kane tutorial left his brain numb. I may still add illustrations before I find a place in a stickied thread for it.

Also note that this is Wazoo's method with my explanation. I am not trying to take credit for the name or the method of the Fast-90 attack.

[klh]

I've allways liked this method, but I've never understood why the range doesn't make much difference.

Good tutorial!:up:

When you're on a perpendicular attack course, you have formed a right triangle (from you to the target, from you to the intercept point on the target track, and from the target to the intercept point). The distances the target and the torpedo travel to the intercept point (where your torpedo goes boom) is related to their speeds. The ratio of the two (target speed / torpedo speed) is equal to the tangent of the lead angle (the bearing to the target at the time you fire). It is not necessary to know the range to the target, except to make sure your torpedo can travel that far).

It's just trigonometry!

See the Angriffsscheibe Handbuch, example # 16 for a more detailed explanation with pictures.

[wetwarev7]

I've allways liked this method, but I've never understood why the range doesn't make much difference.

Good tutorial!:up:

When you're on a perpendicular attack course, you have formed a right triangle (from you to the target, from you to the intercept point on the target track, and from the target to the intercept point). The distances the target and the torpedo travel to the intercept point (where your torpedo goes boom) is related to their speeds. The ratio of the two (target speed / torpedo speed) is equal to the tangent of the lead angle (the bearing to the target at the time you fire). It is not necessary to know the range to the target, except to make sure your torpedo can travel that far).

It's just trigonometry!

See the Angriffsscheibe Handbuch, example # 16 for a more detailed explanation with pictures.

:o

Wait a minute.....brain overload....rebooting....

So, the farther out I am from the ships course, the farther out the target is going to be from the intersection at the same angle? So no matter what distance you are at, the firing angle(say a bearing of 10 degrees) will allways ensure that you and the target are at the correct distance?

If so, why do I need to use a 20 degree bearing if I'm using a slower torpedo?

I don't know why this stuff confuses me. I aced trig in highschool, but maybe because it was so long ago, and I've never had a real world use for it till now....

[klh]

Wait a minute.....brain overload....rebooting....


Be sure to reboot to SAFE mode. :lol:


So, the farther out I am from the ships course, the farther out the target is going to be from the intersection at the same angle? So no matter what distance you are at, the firing angle(say a bearing of 10 degrees) will allways ensure that you and the target are at the correct distance?


Exactly!


If so, why do I need to use a 20 degree bearing if I'm using a slower torpedo?


Think of it this way. A slower torpedo will take longer to reach the intercept point (the target's track), so the target will travel further during that time. Therefore, you need to lead the target more.

And don't get hung up on the 10 or 20 degrees given in the example. You can calculate (or use tables like the real kaleuns did) the exact lead angle with the equation...

Lead Angle = Arctan (target speed/torpedo speed)

So if the target is making 12 knots, and you wish to fire a 30 knot T-III electric, then your lead angle is...

Lead Angle = Arctan (12/30) = 21.8 degrees

And as long as you're within 5000 metres of the target track, you should get a hit!


I don't know why this stuff confuses me. I aced trig in highschool, but maybe because it was so long ago, and I've never had a real world use for it till now....

I keep telling my kids that this stuff will come in handy. Now I can prove it! :know:

[wetwarev7]

Lead Angle = Arctan (target speed/torpedo speed)

So if the target is making 12 knots, and you wish to fire a 30 knot T-III electric, then your lead angle is...

Lead Angle = Arctan (12/30) = 21.8 degrees



Ah! now it makes sense! :up:

In school, they had only taught us about static geometric shapes, so there were intersections, but no interceptions. Thanks alot, Cobb County School System!

I was thinking of the angle always being static(10 or 20 degrees). In my head, that translated to.....well, nevermind, This all makes sense now. And I'm gonna tape that little formula to my monitor till I use it enough times to memorize it. :know:


Thanks Klh!

[Quillan]

The reason the lead angle is larger with a slow torpedo is that you're trying to get the torp to impact at as close to a 90° angle as you can manage, for maximum chance of detonation. If you fire when the ship is at 0° to yours, the torpedo will wind up coming from the rear of the ship to some degree, so you fire before the ship reaches the 0° position to allow for this. It takes longer for the slow torpedo to reach the target than the fast one, thus the target ship will go farther in this interval of time, therefore you fire a little sooner.

[Rockin Robbins]

No trig tables! No formulae, please! The essense of a successful attack plan is simplicity. If you require that the captain recalculate the information the TDC already knows, he's just reinventing the wheel, introducing at least one chance for error for every unnecessary component calculation entailed. It's nice to understand the underlying math. It's stupid to actually use it to perform an attack.

Reliable systems have to eliminate every possible step. Each step increases the chance for fatal error to be introduced. Rules of thumb, such as leading by 20º for slow torpedoes and 10º for fast, are simple approximations that take the place of perilous and complicated calculations to eliminate the opportunity for fatal errors to enter the procedure.

With Fast-90 you can change your mind instantly and shoot from another angle with near-perfect accuracy anyway! You have to love a system that lets you do that!:up:

[klh]

It's nice to understand the underlying math. It's stupid to actually use it to perform an attack.

Certainly the Fast-90 method is an excellent technique and is useful in many situations. With all due respect, however, real U-boat commanders would not have thought it stupid to use trigonometry to achieve a favorable attack position and generate a firing solution. In fact, they had tools to help with exactly that. The most obvious and advanced was, as you mentioned, the TDC or Torpedovorhaltrechner .

There is also evidence that they had available and used trigonometry tables to calculate precise lead angles for intercepting and firing on targets. For example, the instruction manual for the Angriffsscheibe 2 mit Kompaßscheibe (attack disc) mentions that the lead angle is taken from a table ("Vorhalt ... Tabelle") which is undoubtedly a trignometry table relating to the law of sines. While they would not need to use these tools for every attack, they would be well-trained and ready to do so (such as in the case of a damaged TDC, see U.Kdt.Hdb. Part 145).

While rules of thumb are useful (especially for desperation shots), a good U-boat commander would be prepared to use a variety of techniques to generate precise and accurate firing solutions so as not to waste a single precious torpedo (see U.Kdt.Hdb. Parts 91, 105).

[Rockin Robbins]

As you said, they did not haul out the trig tables and a notebook and work out the calculations. They used the calculators built into the TDC and Angriffsscheibe to perform these calculations exactly as I have described. Therefore they DID agree that it would be stupid to actually work out the trig equations while doing an attack.

When you disagree, it is usually considered essential to contradict the point with which you disagree.

What a great find in the tactics manual, well worth repeating!
a good U-boat commander would be prepared to use a variety of techniques to generate precise and accurate firing solutions so as not to waste a single precious torpedo (see U.Kdt.Hdb. Parts 91, 105).
See a fundamental difference between American (most American captains) and German tactics. Where American doctrine was to shoot a spread, usually of four torpedoes, some of which were expected to miss, the Germans, partially forced by their lesser torpedo capacity in Type VII boats, but mostly by their inherent love of precision and efficiency, stressed wasting no shots! Every torpedo was intended to detonate against the side of an enemy ship. I love that thought! Do I EVER look forward to OLC GUI in SH4 and executing exactly this plan! I'm a rebel in the American Navy, never fire spreads and believe in Eugene Fluckey's "one torpedo, one ship" doctrine. He also believed every torpedo should hit the target.

Do you have English translations of the Handbook you linked to, and do you have the U.Kdt.Hdb as well? I'm foaming at the mouth in anticipation here.

Their table mentioned was similar to a table that gutted made for SH3, showing columns for torpedo speeds, rows for target speed and an array of lead angles. I reproduce an adaptation for American steam torpedoes:

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/OKane90_FiringAngles.png

Of course all captains, American and German were trained in the actual trigonometic equations used during an attack. If they were absolutely forced to, they might even have had to use them. I haven't seen a single instance of that happening in the American boats.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/PKequationderivation1.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/PKequationderivation2.jpg


Run for your life! That's just a small part of the section on derivation of the trig behind the working of the Position Keeper. Obviously, there is no intent for a captain to actually work these formulae. He only learned them to understand and appreciate all the PK did.

[dcb]

I just noticed something that puts the whole uboat targeting into a new light. I think the German TDC/stadimeter calculations are completely off-course. The distance to target found using the TDC's stadimeter is largely different from the one measured on map.
I made an ideal-scenario mission, with 5 various ships, the uboat at P-depth at 2500 meters from them and used the stadimeter, while at the same time I measured the distances on map, with map contacts on. The differences between stadimeter and map go as far as 1000 meters, at a distance of 2500 meters, which gives a 30% error!!!!!
I think this is why so many torps are missing.
Can someone confirm my findings, or did I go wrong somewhere?

[klh]

I'm a rebel in the American Navy, never fire spreads and believe in Eugene Fluckey's "one torpedo, one ship" doctrine. He also believed every torpedo should hit the target.
Kriegsmarine doctrine also included firing multiple torpedoes at a target based on the motto "better to destroy little than to damage much." But as you said, the expectation is that every eel hits (at least for short range shots).
U.Kdt.Hdb.
171.) As far as the supply of torpedoes allows, several shots, in the form of multiple discharges (double or three-fold discharges) should be directed against worthwhile targets, even at short range, and when the data (calculations) are not in doubt. In this case, all the torpedoes should hit the mark, in order to ensure the annihilation of the enemy. This means that the torpedoes should be fired at different parts of the target.

Do you have English translations of the Handbook you linked to, and do you have the U.Kdt.Hdb as well? I'm foaming at the mouth in anticipation here.

The English translation of the 1943 U.Kdt.Hdb. is available here...

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/uboat/index.htm (http://www.hnsa.org/doc/uboat/index.htm)

[Rockin Robbins]

The English translation of the 1943 U.Kdt.Hdb. is available here...

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/uboat/index.htm (http://www.hnsa.org/doc/uboat/index.htm)
Thank you klh! Now I REALLY feel like a kid waiting for Christmas!

Isn't it interesting that I find the German and American torpedoes about equally effective so far as explosive power goes. I always begin the attack by firing one fish a quarter length back of the bow, then a quarter of the way forward of the stern. Technically this is a spread, but I expect two hits on individually aimed parts of my target.

There are two reasons for shooting the bow first. First, the motion of the ship will tend to make it take on more water. Secondly, once the target is hit there, it will tend to slow down. That will only affect the next torpedo by making it hit further forward than aimed. If the shots were reversed, the tendency would be for the second shot to miss ahead.

I think the German TDC/stadimeter calculations are completely off-course. The distance to target found using the TDC's stadimeter is largely different from the one measured on map.
Bang! Zoom! Stadimeters are for use when you cannot use any other method. Then you must learn how to use them to know when you are using them wrongly to get a bad range. The American stadimeter is the same. Let me just say the stadimeter works perfectly, the captain somewhat less so. That includes myself. I will use a stadimeter and I am not bad at it. If I have an alternative, I will choose not to use it. Please read:

a good U-boat commander would be prepared to use a variety of techniques to generate precise and accurate firing solutions so as not to waste a single precious torpedo (see U.Kdt.Hdb. Parts 91, 105).
Then go find my seminar and instruction set for the Dick O'Kane targeting method (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67). You'll see that klh and I are in agreement. The bigger and more varied your bag of tricks the more successful you will be. No tactic is supreme. Each fits a certain set of circumstances well and should be used then.

Learn Fast-90, Dick O'Kane, down the throat, up the poop chute, conventional 4 parameter targeting (has to be a name for that) and anything else you can come across. I don't know if Cutie on a Leash can be adapted to U-Boats or not, but that's my next project. AFTER I read those great German tactics manuals!:arrgh!:

[Ducimus]

RE Salvos.

Since duds were virtually non existant in SH3, i typically fired 2 shot salvos. If it didnt sink the target, it slowed it down enough where i could catch it, and look to employ the deck gun. (that and you only had a 4 tubes forward to begin with, and even numbers are nice)


In Sh4, i fire in 3 shot salvos, for the same reason, but also because duds are much more likely.

If its a target where i dont think ill be able to catch up with it again - for whatever reason), ill shoot a 4 shot salvo. (troop transport for example).

Obviously, a choice warship target gets all 6 from the bow.

Point being, if i shot just 1 fish per target, i dont think ill be sinking much. The 1 fish will most likely be a dud or deep runner.

[klh]

Point being, if i shot just 1 fish per target, i dont think ill be sinking much. The 1 fish will most likely be a dud or deep runner.

I second Ducimus' point. In SH3 and SH4 we are spoiled in that there are plenty of targets. In reality, when skippers found a good target, correct doctrine was to be sure of hitting and destroying it.

[Rockin Robbins]

I third Ducimus' point. Put 'em down. Millions of homeless fishies are looking for places to live. I certainly don't want to go on record being understood that I said put two torpedoes in 'em and let 'em go.

They do bad things to Captains who do that.:/\\chop

Just inserted the lead angle table for American steam torpedoes in my above post. It's worth a look.

[Ducimus]

I read somewhere, a typical salvo from Tang was 4 fish. I guess O'kane wanted to be dead certain. :arrgh!:

[Rockin Robbins]

I just noticed something that puts the whole uboat targeting into a new light. I think the German TDC/stadimeter calculations are completely off-course. The distance to target found using the TDC's stadimeter is largely different from the one measured on map.
I made an ideal-scenario mission, with 5 various ships, the uboat at P-depth at 2500 meters from them and used the stadimeter, while at the same time I measured the distances on map, with map contacts on. The differences between stadimeter and map go as far as 1000 meters, at a distance of 2500 meters, which gives a 30% error!!!!!
I think this is why so many torps are missing.
Can someone confirm my findings, or did I go wrong somewhere?
Also, dcb, the stadimeter method of measuring range assumes that you know the real height of that mast! Guess what? Much of the time the information was not correct. Why?

1. Inaccurate information could be "supplied" by the target's owner. That would make your stadimeter tell you the wrong range even if you were perfectly using it!

2. Masts were altered to have a different height than that published with the same result--a clean miss!

3. Masts were painted in such a way that their height could not be determined. Another miss!

Capn Scurvy has determined that many mast heights are wrong in the SH4 database, resulting in inaccurate ranges. This is a reflection of real life, even if they are caused by error. Game error simulating real life error would be strangely appropriate!:rotfl:

There is a reason why I use the stadimeter when I am forced to. There are other attack methods that do not depend on precise range being known. When they are appropriate to the circumstances, they are much more accurate. Use the Dick O'Kane (with U-Boat or fleet boat) method or Fast-90 (with U-Boat only) and see torpedoes hit your target within 5 meters of where you aim each individual torpedo. They are awesome methods!

I go with klh on that one, Duci. Two fish and they stop or slow down. Check it out and see if they want more. With big warships they get the whole front six from the fleet boat and the anemic four from the U-Boat.

[Quillan]

Rockin', you might also try looking for a hard copy of the book if you want it.
The U Boat Commanders Handbook (Paperback) (http://www.amazon.com/U-Boat-Commanders-Handbook/dp/0939631210/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1207360511&sr=11-1)

It was $8.95 3 years ago when I bought mine, but seems to be out of print at the moment. You might find a copy at the usual spots, though.

[Rockin Robbins]

Best price on half.com right now is $51.38. I'll just have to stalk it like a tanker. Down scope.:yep:

[klh]

Best price on half.com right now is $51.38. I'll just have to stalk it like a tanker. Down scope.:yep:

I bought mine years ago at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. They don't have it on their website, but the store may still have them. You could try giving them a call. It's a book that any proper Kaleun shouldn't be without.

[ccruner13]

after you have it all set up and are looking through the scope and moving it around there is a box with the gyro angle that changes as you rotate. 0 is when the torp will shoot straight.

and changing the distance does effect location...if you are ever looking at a stationary target with the torp path over it play with the distance and it moves the torp track

[kipkipkip]

Help me out here, if doing the fast 90 and I manually put in a speed, zero bearing off of the nose of my boat, moves left or right depending on which angle the target ship is approaching. Compensating for the speed entered. Is this right?



Kip

[9th_cow]

your not alone, shots i know will definatly sink a ship ( in usa sub) will not hit a darned thing in a kraut tub, but ill persavere :)

just sailed into the midst of a un escorted convoy, all i can say is thank god for the deck gun.

1 hit out of 4 lol, dreadfull. not helped by one of my own fish chasing me under either.

[Rockin Robbins]

Help me out here, if doing the fast 90 and I manually put in a speed, zero bearing off of the nose of my boat, moves left or right depending on which angle the target ship is approaching. Compensating for the speed entered. Is this right?



Kip

You are exactly right!:up: