Are You Comfortable With Muslims/Islamics?

[Stealth Hunter]

This is a general question. It is preferred if you make a post with details on your choice and justification, but you don't have to if you don't want to (of course).

[SUBMAN1]

I don't hate them. I just disagree with their ideals. Is that a good way to put it?

-S

[Stealth Hunter]

Yeah, that's actually a great way to put it. Very peaceful approach.

[Happy Times]

I dont care of race or religions as long as they respect our laws and culture. We have the right to demand that. Can we go to Iran or Saudi Arabia and live like here? No, and i wouldnt move there. So why would anyone that hates us move here?
To destroy us?:roll:

[HunterICX]

I see no problems with Muslims, as far as the Islam goes...well you have the Normal ones, the ones that like in the rest of the world Eats, rests, works and enjoys life.

its the Nutcrackers out there I really dont feel comfortable with, destroying it for the rest of the Muslim people.
the nutcrackers that are out to Demand Respect , and even use lethal force to make their points. The ones that scream Violence upon the western people.
I better stop it just pisses me off to speak too much about the nutcrackers.

HunterICX

[Happy Times]

What is the Feck going on here on the GT Forum?

Three Fecking Islam/Muslim threads in one day!

Fecking eke anyone would think is that all there is to talk about.


That's it I'm out of here for a week or maybe two.

Bored to the back teeth with this.

You dont have to read them. Start your own about something trivial.

[STEED]

Post deleted by me.

Good night.

[Letum]

Must....resist....temptation.....

Must not make...parody post...*strains*

[Happy Times]

Post deleted by me.

Good night.

Sorry i missed it, PM me if you have problem;)

[Stealth Hunter]

Yeah, I'm off SS for the night. Got a horrid headache. We'll continue this discussion in the morning.

[Letum]

We'll continue this discussion in the morning.

You think this will still be unlocked then?

[kiwi_2005]

Ask me couple of yrs back and i would of said Yes!. Now in a nutshell i have no problem with them weary of them yes. But its not like im going to cross the street to avoid them.

I watched this vid last night which has muslim belief as its has quotes from the Qu-ran(sp) Great documentary on Death. lol Seriously it makes you think about life in general.

From the day your born your on the countdown to your death no matter who you are what you do the end is the same for everyone of us. Death. So really life is just meaningless you strive to better yourself you do good things you achieve great things personally then you die...


Nobody knows what will happen in the next few hours or even in seconds. Time flies in the countdown to one’s own death. Every day brings that predestined day closer. In this film you are invited to see the true nature of our worldly existence. It is a short and deceptive life in which worldly desires seem fascinating and full of promise, but the truth is much different.

Documentary: The Truth of the life of this World.
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=8442785608534320808

[Ducimus]

No, not comfortable.

I have NEVER heard anything GOOD about them. Nor have i SEEN anything good. My opinion and distrust increased during the "cartoonist riots". Up until that point, i thought it was just the extremists. After that point, i think that the majority of them ARE extremists. In one fell swoop, they proved the cartoonists caricatures corrrect.


I have yet to have heard, or seen, any reason to be comfortable.

[Skybird]

What sombody labels himself as, is not my concern, and does not interest me. My quarrel is with the ideology of islam as it is defining itself by the Quran and the tradition of Hadith and the laws of Sharia. that includes that i have problems with everybody being in complianan ce with this truly quranic islam, and I fail to see that there can be any other Islam deserving this name.

I dealt with people calling themselves muslim, but who were not Muslim by Quranic definition. fine.

I also dealt with people calling themselves muslim, and really being in conformity with Quran's understanding of what islam is. Very big problem. I consider them to be enemies, and very often they behaved hostile or arrogant indeed.

and i dealt with people who are the first of the above, but do not care or ignore the existence of the latter. these I see as potentially problematic, for they may not be radicals, but their ignorrance allows to strengthen these socalled racils and deceive about their motivation - but for reasons of comfortable, lazy habits, not because a true and deep-anchored hostility on their mind. they are "Mitläufer" (fellow travellers ?)

As I see it it there are many shades of calling oneself Muslim - but there is only one colour of true islamic Muslimship. and the latter is the islam the Quran is meaning. Everything else is anything - but not Islam.

That'S why I say that islam cannot be refomred, but eventually societies can be influenced that finally maybe they do not reform Islam, biut move beyond islam alltogether and repalkce it with something that is not Islam for sure, but something different and something better.

as the poll is not precise in what kind of Muslim it means, I take the name by it'S word and refer to Muslims as the Quran defines islam. Thus, option three from me, of course. i do not hate them. but I identify them as an enemy to all non-muslim mankind, and oppose them with all determination, because there is no other choice.

[nikimcbee]

No, not comfortable.

I have NEVER heard anything GOOD about them. Nor have i SEEN anything good. My opinion and distrust increased during the "cartoonist riots". Up until that point, i thought it was just the extremists. After that point, i think that the majority of them ARE extremists. In one fell swoop, they proved the cartoonists caricatures corrrect.


I have yet to have heard, or seen, any reason to be comfortable.

This is more or less what I wanted to say. When I lived in Russia, the only people that ever gave us problems were Arabic guys!:dead: We had a few girls in our student group, and they would follow them constantly. We had to set a few things straight with them. For me personally, Sept. 11th has ruined it for me. I am interested in the Arabic language(s) and culture, but Islam, I have zero interest in. At this point, Islam has some serious PR issues to resolve, before I trust anybody that follows it.

[caspofungin]

what's with all the inflammatory threads on islam the last couple of weeks?

let me tell a funny story...

once upon a time, when i was a young man in london, i went to the university mosque for friday prayers. after we'd finished, a guy stood up and started talking. he was from hizb-al-tahrir, and he was basically telling us to get ready for a violent jihad against the West.

What's funny? well, he was basically using the same arguments that i've seen posted here -- i've lived amongst the enemy, so i know how they think, despite appearances they hate us; look at their actions in israel and bosnia and iraq (mid 90's) -- they're obviously out to kill us; muslims get killed every day in those places, but where's the western outcry?; look at their cultural ingresses into our countries, music, food, they want to build churches; quotes from the bible taken out of context; look at history and how they've treated everyone; etc.

sound familiar?

hate the haters and the hypocrites.

[Letum]

Some people in a particular group did something bad so this is a group of bad people.
Does not compute!

Some people read and follow a book that contains a handful of morally dubious quotes,
so they must be morally dubious people.
Does not compute!

Judge people not by their race, nationality, religion, age, gender, sexual orientation,
wealth, beauty, disabilities or any other group they might belong to.

Judge them as an individual by their actions, words and habits and then only after you
understand them.


*edit* Well said Caspofungin.

[Tchocky]

As an ostrich, I'm going to wait this one out.

[August]

I never met a Muslim i would be "comfortable with" but I have no hate for them as a group either.

[Letum]

I never met a Muslim i would be "comfortable with" but I have no hate for them as a group either.

Tell me, are you comfortable with Caspofungin and the other Muslim members of subsim being here? :shifty:

[August]

I never met a Muslim i would be "comfortable with" but I have no hate for them as a group either.
Tell me, are you comfortable with Caspofungin and the other Muslim members of subsim being here? :shifty:

I've never met any of them so I couldn't say. Chatting on a forum with anonymous internet personalities does not constitute "meeting" a person in my book. How about yours?

[Letum]

I never met a Muslim i would be "comfortable with" but I have no hate for them as a group either.
Tell me, are you comfortable with Caspofungin and the other Muslim members of subsim being here? :shifty:
I've never met any of them so I couldn't say. Chatting on a forum with anonymous internet personalities does not constitute "meeting" a person in my book. How about yours?

I know you have not met any of them, but do you feel comftable interacting with them on the forum?

[August]

I know you have not met any of them, but do you feel comftable interacting with them on the forum?

Sure, why not? Are you hoping to garner support to have them banned? If so you do NOT have my vote Letum.

[Letum]

I know you have not met any of them, but do you feel comftable interacting with them on the forum?
Sure, why not? Are you hoping to garner support to have them banned? If so you do NOT have my vote Letum.

I'm glad to hear it.

[August]

I'm glad to hear it.

Well isn't that special.

[Letum]

I'm glad to hear it.
Well isn't that special.
What do you mean?

[August]

I'm glad to hear it.
Well isn't that special. What do you mean?

Sorry i'm not here to answer your questions Letum.

[Happy Times]

what's with all the inflammatory threads on islam the last couple of weeks?

let me tell a funny story...

once upon a time, when i was a young man in london, i went to the university mosque for friday prayers. after we'd finished, a guy stood up and started talking. he was from hizb-al-tahrir, and he was basically telling us to get ready for a violent jihad against the West.

What's funny? well, he was basically using the same arguments that i've seen posted here -- i've lived amongst the enemy, so i know how they think, despite appearances they hate us; look at their actions in israel and bosnia and iraq (mid 90's) -- they're obviously out to kill us; muslims get killed every day in those places, but where's the western outcry?; look at their cultural ingresses into our countries, music, food, they want to build churches; quotes from the bible taken out of context; look at history and how they've treated everyone; etc.

sound familiar?

hate the haters and the hypocrites.

Can i ask how you practice your faith? Would you like the right for muslims to use sharia instead of local laws? What do the muslims you know think of western culture?

Honest questions, prove me wrong, i would happily be ignorant.

[Letum]

I'm glad to hear it.
Well isn't that special. What do you mean?
Sorry i'm not here to answer your questions Letum.


:doh: You have lost me!

[caspofungin]

@happy times
Would you like the right for muslims to use sharia instead of local laws?
in islamic countries, if people want to go by sharia law, that's their choice. but i completely disagree w/ muslims trying to force sharia law into the jurisdiction of the western countries where they live, and i hate when they try and institute their local customs which aren't even sharia law into the jurisdiction. both in the quran and in mohammed's words, it's a muslim's duty to obey the local laws when in a foreign country.

but if muslims are living within the local laws, then there shouldn't be a problem. if someone comes to your country and tries to change it, then feel free to kick them out. but why should that concept apply only to western countries?

What do the muslims you know think of western culture?
If I understand your question right, the majority of people i know don't have issues w/ McDonald's, Shakespeare, Shawshank Redemption, Radiohead, etc. Any arguments my family has are of the nature, "your choice in music sucks," or "you're not going out in those clothes."

that's a separate issue from western policies. and most of the muslims i know don't have an issue seperating individual westerners from the policies of their governments.

Can i ask how you practice your faith?
Without going into personal details, I don't try and force my faith on others. I people ask about it, I give them what information/opinion I can. I don't have issues with Christians or Jews based on their faith. I pray. I fast. And every single Muslim I know personally does pretty much the same.

So that's why I get bent out of shape when people tar us all with the same brush -- because it denies individuality. and i disagree with skybird's opinion re there's only 1 way to follow the Quran, making me some kind of apostate because I'm not wearing a suicide vest right now -- how can that possibly be true if there are contradictory statements in the Quran itself?

Honest questions, prove me wrong, i would happily be ignorant
Prove you wrong in what? All Muslims are identical? If you believe that 1.5 billion people have exactly the same opinions and thoughts, I don't think there's much in the way of rational argument that will change your mind.

My question is, how can you take a the way a segment of a society acts, and extrapolate that to represent the entire society, more than a billion individuals?

[Wolfehunter]

I tried dating a muslim egyption chick once. She was hot. Man oh man she was hot. But her father and religion got in the way. He told me I had to convert to his religion. I told him I don't believe in religion and I wouldn't want to disrespect anyones religion by falsely agreeing to converted in something I don't believe in. So she chose her heritage I said good bye. That is that.:roll:

I have nothing against people as long as they don't force there ideals down my throat.;) I don't care what people believe in. If your happy, all the power to you.:up:

But if someone tries to force there ideals on me then we will have a problem.:yep:

Peace all.:D

[Happy Times]

Would you like the right for muslims to use sharia instead of local laws?
in islamic countries, if people want to go by sharia law, that's their choice. but i completely disagree w/ muslims trying to force sharia law into the jurisdiction of the western countries where they live, and i hate when they try and institute their local customs which aren't even sharia law into the jurisdiction. both in the quran and in mohammed's words, it's a muslim's duty to obey the local laws when in a foreign country.

but if muslims are living within the local laws, then there shouldn't be a problem. if someone comes to your country and tries to change it, then feel free to kick them out. but why should that concept apply only to western countries?
What do think of the sharia laws used in Saudi Arabia or Iran? Should we accept them as part of Islam? Do you think we have right to be concerned of the growing muslim population in Europe? Accept that this population might grow to be the majority? Do you meen that western countries have tried to change muslim countries in a negative way?

What do the muslims you know think of western culture?
If I understand your question right, the majority of people i know don't have issues w/ McDonald's, Shakespeare, Shawshank Redemption, Radiohead, etc. Any arguments my family has are of the nature, "your choice in music sucks," or "you're not going out in those clothes."

that's a separate issue from western policies. and most of the muslims i know don't have an issue seperating individual westerners from the policies of their governments.

But the goverments are elected by the people and many support their policies. What do you think about those people? What kind of policies would they like to see from the goverments? Arent these also their goverments or are they first and foremost muslims?

Can i ask how you practice your faith?
Without going into personal details, I don't try and force my faith on others. I people ask about it, I give them what information/opinion I can. I don't have issues with Christians or Jews based on their faith. I pray. I fast. And every single Muslim I know personally does pretty much the same.

So that's why I get bent out of shape when people tar us all with the same brush -- because it denies individuality. and i disagree with skybird's opinion re there's only 1 way to follow the Quran, making me some kind of apostate because I'm not wearing a suicide vest right now -- how can that possibly be true if there are contradictory statements in the Quran itself?
Can you go in your mosque and say this? Will anyone disagree with you?

Honest questions, prove me wrong, i would happily be ignorant
Prove you wrong in what? All Muslims are identical? If you believe that 1.5 billion people have exactly the same opinions and thoughts, I don't think there's much in the way of rational argument that will change your mind.

My question is, how can you take a the way a segment of a society acts, and extrapolate that to represent the entire society, more than a billion individuals?[/quote]

There have been polls that support the generalisation but offcourse we are all individuals if we go to that level.

[Sailor Steve]

I don't have a problem with anyone, unless they make one for me. People are people. Acknowledge everyone you meet. If they show themselves to be worth it, embrace them. If not, be prepared.

[silentrunner]

Someones religion does not have anything to do with my thaughts about people. Religion is a personal belief; so I could get along with a person regardless of religion. If I want people to respect m religion I must respect theirs.

[STEED]

Post deleted by me.

Good night.

Sorry i missed it, PM me if you have problem;)

That's alright, I was http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon8.gif last night with some other issue that came to light which got me more :x and so on.

[Happy Times]

Post deleted by me.

Good night.

Sorry i missed it, PM me if you have problem;)

That's alright, I was http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon8.gif last night with some other issue that came to light which got me more :x and so on.

I also feel bad for being confrontational, i just feel strongly on the subject and think it is important. I really felt freedom of speech took a step back yesterday. Ofcourse i cant except everyone to agree, "i would die for your right to disagree with me".;)

[Trex]

History has a way of repeating itself.

If one looks at Elizabethan England (and considerably later, come to think of it), there was a religious group feared and ostracized by the majority. One could not marry into their group unless one changed to their faith. While the majority were peaceful citizens who wished only to live life their own way, they were distrusted by the majority for allegedly having more loyalty to their religion than to the state. Some of their members had committed and had attempted to commit acts of mass terror, including bombings. Foreign personnel slipped covertly into the country to incite hatred and acts of vengeance from secret safe houses. Small bands in the country carried out acts of violence, while larger numbers trained overseas for the final battle to convert England, by force if need be, to the True Faith. It was in many ways a time of terror, distrust and xenophobia.

The group? Roman Catholics.

We survived that cultural clash. I think we will survive this one.

[DeepIron]

I don't have a problem with anyone, unless they make one for me.
Pretty much covers it for me... :yep:

[Etienne]

Starting when someone post a primordial thread (PT) on islam (a), likelihood of muslim related threads (b, c, ..., n) will increase exponentially until the entire first page of GT (G1) is covered only by Islam / Israel / Jihad threads, stickies, and the curiosity killed the cat thread (Ω). This is compounded by the overall human moderator annoyance numbers (OH-MAN).

The Fed Up Level (FU) will then be reached, indicating the end of the current islamic period (PT-FU) and muslim threads will disappear for a period, which last until the occurence of terrorism and cultural accomodation in world events as a function of certain posters' free time that will attain the sufficient internet outrage point (ZOMG) for a triggering event (PT).

Sadly, I don't have Excel on this computer to come up with a graph. :-D

In short: Every couple of months, we get into the Islam fad. It'll go away. Time your vacation from subsim right, and you can avoid them entirely!

[bradclark1]

The voice of a few project an image of the many. What hurts the many is their silence.
Thats why I chose no.

There certainly is too many Islam threads of late.

[STEED]

Are You Comfortable With Muslims/Islamics?

I am more concerned about the Political Correctness lobby that has some sort of a strangle hold over our government. Why the heck my government can not see the this PC lobby is using Muslims as an excuse to set there agenda is belong me. Sure we have hot head Muslims who want there law on all of us and yet we also have white trash kids running a muck and running rings around the Police and are weak laws.

The PC lobby is a bigger threat to this country than Muslims, true to say I don't know what is going on in your country's and have no idea what you see as your biggest threat but I know this for a fact, PC in this country has coursed cracks in society to enlarged and distrust all round. Political party's are all on the make with there sleazy corruption, they live in fantasy world and fiddle while this country goes further down the pan with all our problems.

No wonder this country is tearing it's self apart as no one wants to get off there fat ass and grab the nettle and take the pain to fix the bloody mess we are in. Muslims are not our number one problem at all, PC is our number one problem which acts like the mafia at times.

[Etienne]

The voice of a few project an image of the many. What hurts the many is their silence.

Peacefullness and wisdom don't make for good ratings; as such, they don't usually get proportional attention.

Edited to add: We need one of those "XXX DAYS WITHOUT WORKPLACE ACCIDENTS" signs... But ours needs to say "XXX DAYS WITHOUT ANOTHER ISLAM THREAD"... I don't think we'll need more than one digit.

[marooned]

im new here so dont want to rock the boat too much but :cool: i really feel that anyone who hasnt discovered evolution in this modern age is really walking around with their eyes ears and minds closed.
im sick to the back teeth of muslims and we europeans have nothing to gain from a culture like that.
we are fools and i could go on but its pointless:damn: anyway the answer is no i dont feel comfortable with them and avoid them like the plague.
(by the way i noticed ive changed status) whats nub?

[Happy Times]

im new here so dont want to rock the boat too much but :cool: i really feel that anyone who hasnt discovered evolution in this modern age is really walking around with their eyes ears and minds closed.
im sick to the back teeth of muslims and we europeans have nothing to gain from a culture like that.
we are fools and i could go on but its pointless:damn: anyway the answer is no i dont feel comfortable with them and avoid them like the plague.
(by the way i noticed ive changed status) whats nub?

You will soon find out.:cool:

[Takeda Shingen]

whats nub?

USN slang: Non-Useful Body. A new crew member on a ship. Don't worry, you'll ache for the days of the Nub once the Medic comes around.

This thread, and the other two just like it, are on the fast track to nowhere. There is nothing here that has not been said repeatedly over the past two years. No one's position is ever changed. No one moves toward the center. All that results are locked threads, hard feelings and banned users.

Let's try to wrap it up peacably.

The Management

[Etienne]

Don't worry, you'll ache for the days of the Nub once the Medic comes around.


The medic barely prepares you for the dreaded Navy Dude.

[STEED]

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2668/wajnr7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Someone has got a good sense of timing around here. :lol:

[Happy Times]

Well i answered No to the poll, just want to say that out. I dont hate and if Caspofungin wants to reply i would be happy to hear him out. Im open to discussion but also worried about the future.

[GlobalExplorer]

I voted "No" but that does not mean I can not feel comfortable with Muslims, I know too many who I really like. I would just prefer them to be non-Muslims.

[SUBMAN1]

Pretty much speaks for itself about your future:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7131/futhb6.gif

[DeepIron]

Well, it's hard to have a discussion when anything you might say regarding their beliefs might cause spontaneous combustion in your face... :dead:

[caspofungin]

@happy times

you posed a pretty broad set of questions, most of which i've already discussed in depth at some point or other on this forum. basically, it always ends up degenerating into a slanging match between me and someone else as we each try to prove our points using various quotes or graphs or articles. If you want to continue this in PM, let's.

i'm not here to change the numbers in the poll or to convert anyone or change their minds. people have their opinions, and they're entitled to them, even if they're based on misrepresentations.

everyone is going on about how great a threat islam is, the whole epic clash of civilizations thing. in my opinion, the threat goes both ways. after all, how many muslim standing armies are currently occupying western countries?

Well, it's hard to have a discussion when anything you might say regarding their beliefs might cause spontaneous combustion in your face... :dead:
we're having a discussion here, and noone's pc has blown up. :shifty:

[SUBMAN1]

everyone is going on about how great a threat islam is, the whole epic clash of civilizations thing. in my opinion, the threat goes both ways. after all, how many muslim standing armies are currently occupying western countries?Oh really? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,57507,00.html

we're having a discussion here, and noone's pc has blown up. :shifty:That is because they haven't figured out who we are yet. Otherwise the death threats would be coming in. Just look at Liveleak.

[Biggles]

My aunt's husband is named Mohammed, he comes from Casablanca and is a Muslim since a couple o' years ago.

So yeah, I don't really have any problem with muslims...

[Tchocky]

SUBMAN, are you being serious?

[SUBMAN1]

SUBMAN, are you being serious?Does it look like I'm being serious?

[Tchocky]

I honestly can't tell.

[SUBMAN1]

I honestly can't tell.Typical.

[bradclark1]

@everyone is going on about how great a threat islam is, the whole epic clash of civilizations thing. in my opinion, the threat goes both ways. after all, how many muslim standing armies are currently occupying western countries?

I think it's a case of if they got their stuff together and Muslim country helped Muslim country we would virtually be gone except for trainers etc.
In regards to Bush wanting bases there all they have to do is say no. Most of the U.S. want us out of Iraq but a portion of Iraqi's and the Iraqi government want us to stay there for the present for stability. The only thing that keeps us there without an ulterior motive is Arab on Arab violence. If it wasn't for that we wouldn't have a legitimate reason for staying so we would have to leave irregardless of what the present administration wanted.
Arab governments don't give a hoot about their neighbors and probably consider Afghanistan and Iraq a good thing because it gets the trouble makers out of their own country.

[marooned]

i have a question .
suicide bombers get 72 virgins or however many they get once their "honorable deeds" are done but what do female suicide bombers get?
this is what one whacky website suggest http://www.bobfromaccounting.com/4_08_02/suicidegirls.html
is there any truth in this ? anyone ?:huh:

[Sailor Steve]

But...but...why go through that pain first? If you're that decadent anyway, just come to America where you can have it all in THIS life!:rotfl:

[Venatore]

As a soldier I will not go into detailed comments as I will be keel hauled without a doubt. But if you really want to know what people think; ask the mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, sons & daughters who have lost a soldier to these fanatics within this religion.

Majority of wars are started by religion and that is a fact of life.

I'll shut up now :shifty:

[Letum]

As a soldier I will not go into detailed comments as I will be keel hauled without a doubt....

Now I am curious!

[Platapus]

i have a question .
suicide bombers get 72 virgins or however many they get once their "honorable deeds" are done but what do female suicide bombers get?
this is what one whacky website suggest http://www.bobfromaccounting.com/4_08_02/suicidegirls.html
is there any truth in this ? anyone ?:huh:


Well it is important to remember that the whole 72 virgins was a story perpetrated by the occidental media. There is no mention of 72 virgins in the Holy Qur’an. One of the first media stories that discussed this was a 60 Minutes program in 2001. However that story was adamantly challenged by islamic scholars.

In the Hadith, there is mention of 72 wives. This is listed in Hadith 2562. “The Book of Description of the Garden". In this context garden is given to mean to paradise.

"Sawda (Tirmidhi’s grandfather) reported that he heard from Abdullah, who received from Rishdin b. Sa’d, who in turn learned from Amr b. al-Harith, from Darraj, from Abul-Haytham, from Abu Sa’id al-Khudri, who received it from the Apostle of God [Muhammad]: The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as [wide as the distance] between al-Jaabiyya and San’a."

So we have a story told by a guy who heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy.......

While the Holy Qur’an is considered impeccable, the Hadith is not.

What is interesting is that the Hadith not only prohibits the killing of innocents but also prohibits suicide (hadiths 257 and 258).

"Whoever commits suicide with a piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in Hell. Whoever commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in Hell [forever], and whoever commits suicide by stabbing shall keep on stabbing himself in Hell [forever]."

Rabbi Reuven Firestone wrote “So suicide is forbidden, killing of noncombatants is forbidden, but martyrdom is rewarded with entrance into heaven and, therefore, with great material rewards in the world to come. We are beginning to uncover the complexity of the problem. It rests to a great extent on interpretation and the authority of those who make the interpretations. One stable person’s definition of suicide may be interpreted as martyrdom by a fanatic. All these categories may be easily manipulated by fanatical, desperate, or evil people. A reasonable person’s obvious identification of innocent noncombatants may be categorized as Satan’s hordes by someone who is desperate and confused. Add to this the fact that most, though not all, suicide bombers are in desperate economic straits.”

So it all comes down to the inconvenient fact. Suicide bombers and terrorists may claim Islam as their foundation, but their very acts brand them apostates.

Terrorists may be many things but muslims they aint.:nope:

[Hylander_1314]

I have no problem with people having a different religous belief. But when they use it to advance a political point, or use it as a reason to murder, that's a different topic altogether. I think your question is too broad in nature, as there are plenty of muslim believers wh odon't believe in violence as their own teachings state.

Religions are wonderful grand lofty ideas, and purport high ideals. Religous followers, now that's a different topic.

[DeepIron]

Well, it's hard to have a discussion when anything you might say regarding their beliefs might cause spontaneous combustion in your face... :dead:
we're having a discussion here, and no one's pc has blown up. :shifty:

True enough but I think a few keyboards were on fire...;)

The gist of what I meant was, it's getting harder to know who your friends are anymore. I have Muslim friends whom I known for years and they are simply appalled at what is going on in the Middle East and I would no sooner believe they would wish harm on anyone.

To judge any group of people by the actions of a statistical few is doing an injustice to the others.

[Platapus]

To judge any group of people by the actions of a statistical few is doing an injustice to the others.


I believe that is the basis of bigotry and prejudice.

Characterizing the many by observation of the few is not only statistically illogical but morally repugnant.

[Etienne]

So we have a story told by a guy who heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy.......

That's usually how religions get started :-D

[Stealth Hunter]

Well, it's hard to have a discussion when anything you might say regarding their beliefs might cause spontaneous combustion in your face... :dead:
we're having a discussion here, and no one's pc has blown up. :shifty:

True enough but I think a few keyboards were on fire...;)

I'll send a few terrorist woodlouses to attack their PC's. I've found a way to attach snappers to their backs. All they need to is fall hard enough inside the PC to cause damage (snappers are those little gun-powder fireworks that you throw on the ground and make that annoying pop sound; they also hurt like hell when you throw them and have no shoes on).

[marooned]

its all madness.
as i say, us europeans have no need at all of religion and we have progressed well enough.
its had its day..200 years ago if anyone had a serious problem with painful teeth they saw the blacksmith who then used tongs to pull the rotten tooth out (possibly even the wrong tooth)
that was the norm. today we have learned that there is a better way.
if any dentist in the civilised world did that 2day hed be in prison and the talk of the week!!
thats progress
3rd world land needs religion to keep some kind of order we have been there got the tee shirt etc etc

[Platapus]

So we have a story told by a guy who heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy.......

That's usually how religions get started :-D

Well "I" was not gonna say that, but I am glad someone did :up:

[Konovalov]

As a Subsim member and a Western Muslim I answered yes obviously. :)

I'm only uncomfortable (gross understatement) with the tiny minority who want to blow me up along with the tiny minority on the other side who want to deport me from my country of birth, ban my religion and so on. To hell with both of em. :down:

And that is my contribution to this thread. I have lost count how many times I have had to discuss and debate my faith and religion on this forum. I guess they are just the rubbish cards that I have been dealt. So I play my crummy hand as best as I can. For my sanity I tend to just fold.

As to all these Muslim threads of recent. I just call it that "time of the month".

I'll conclude by quoting Skybird of all people regarding Muslims/Islam topics from this thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=131721&page=2):

This theme seems to be a cyclic event in nthreads - it has been discussed many times before, in depth. ;)
Indeed. :yep:

Edited: Added quote and corrected some below par grammar.

[TteFAboB]

I'm comfortable with Muslims/Islamics.

I'm not comfortable with terrorists, murderers and blasphemy.

[Happy Times]

It appears that off the 30 ongoing coflicts, 20 have Islamists as one of the parties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ongoing_wars

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/2008-03_ongoing_conflicts.png


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/Worldreligion.png

[peterloo]

Definitely OK with moderate Muslims, just hate the radicals who bend what their prophet says for their own gain.

[Letum]

It appears that off the 30 ongoing coflicts, 20 have Islamists as one of the parties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ongoing_wars



That has far, far, far more to do with the economic states of those countries and their
political history than religion.

[jumpy]

Well, I lived in the middle east for six years when I was younger, and now I live in a large city in the midlands... so you can draw your own conclusions as to whether I'm comfortable with muslims or not :p hehe.

[Happy Times]

It appears that off the 30 ongoing coflicts, 20 have Islamists as one of the parties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ongoing_wars



That has far, far, far more to do with the economic states of those countries and their
political history than religion.

Well they are still radical islamists, do you want to ignore that?

[Penelope_Grey]

Hmm

To be honest, the only thing about Islam or Islamics I really really dislike... apart from the loons who kill in the name of their religion thus giving everybody a bad name.

The only thing is... Halal meat. And kosher meat while I am thinking about it. Very medieval way of doing things, and needlessly cruel to the animal in question. No animal deserves to die by having its throat slit and being aware of that fact, and bleeding to death completely terrified.

[antikristuseke]

Its one of the fastest ways to kill an animal, they loose unconciousness quite rapidly because oxygen isnt reaching the brain, not aware of the exact time it takes, but humans loose conciousless in a mater of seconds.

[Tchocky]

7 seconds I think.

Having grown up beside an abbatoir I'm not wild on any method. Then again, my Western WhiteMale Hypocrisy is enough to keep me warm.

*snuggle*

[Penelope_Grey]

Its one of the fastest ways to kill an animal, they loose unconciousness quite rapidly because oxygen isnt reaching the brain, not aware of the exact time it takes, but humans loose conciousless in a mater of seconds.

And the animal can't be stunned beforehand... why?

A cow for instance has a lot more blood than a human does, how quickly they lose consciousness is irrelevant, the pain and fear they will feel before losing consciousness is cruel.

[Happy Times]

Its one of the fastest ways to kill an animal, they loose unconciousness quite rapidly because oxygen isnt reaching the brain, not aware of the exact time it takes, but humans loose conciousless in a mater of seconds.

Not in those beheading videos, cruel way to go. Id rather shoot myself than go like that.

[antikristuseke]

Its one of the fastest ways to kill an animal, they loose unconciousness quite rapidly because oxygen isnt reaching the brain, not aware of the exact time it takes, but humans loose conciousless in a mater of seconds.

And the animal can't be stunned beforehand... why?

A cow for instance has a lot more blood than a human does, how quickly they lose consciousness is irrelevant, the pain and fear they will feel before losing consciousness is cruel.

Its not the ammount of blood that makes the diference really, its where that blood is, no oxygenated blood in the brain, no conciousness and no pain. Killing animals for food is cruel, I agree, but thats life for you. Stuning the animal beforehand makes no real diference in my eyes as the death is more than swift ennough allready, a lot swifter than any pray animal will reasonably get from any other member of the animal kingdom.

[Penelope_Grey]

Its not the ammount of blood that makes the diference really, its where that blood is, no oxygenated blood in the brain, no conciousness and no pain. Killing animals for food is cruel, I agree, but thats life for you. Stuning the animal beforehand makes no real diference in my eyes as the death is more than swift ennough allready, a lot swifter than any pray animal will reasonably get from any other member of the animal kingdom.

Well much as I love a good bit of steak, I just don't think an animal should be killed having its throat slit and being aware of it, immaterial of however long they are conscious. Its a very upsetting thing to me. I don't agree with that, when the animal can stunned before hand and can die blissfully unaware and unafraid.

I am simply raising what discomforts me about Islamic things. I have no intentions of arguing with anybody sir.

[Konovalov]

Its one of the fastest ways to kill an animal, they loose unconciousness quite rapidly because oxygen isnt reaching the brain, not aware of the exact time it takes, but humans loose conciousless in a mater of seconds.

And the animal can't be stunned beforehand... why?

I am simply raising what discomforts me about Islamic things. I have no intentions of arguing with anybody sir.

The stunning of animals before slaughter is an area open to different interpretation and debate. Most Muslims that I know have no problem with it including myself while a small number I know believe that an animal that is stunned prior to slaughter can not be considered halal. Hence there are different schools of thought on this issue which once again demonstrates the diversity of thought within Islamic thinking just as there is no absolute single form of Sharia law contrary to some mickey mouse talk.

[Skybird]

Cutting the arteria carotis communis (the major arteria you can feel at the side of your neck) actually leads to immediate loss of blood pressure inside the brain and leads to loss of consicousness very, very quickly. It is not about sufficient blood leaving the brain, it is about loss of pressure that is acchieved by even the smallest loss of blood in the brain's system.the thing to be argued about slaughtering an animal this way is the pain felt from the cut itself, because often it is conducted like you can see in war movies as well: an excessive, deep cut from one side to the others as if it is about cutting off the whole head. That is not needed. The blood system is a high-pressure system, and any cut in the mentioned arteria leads to immediate decomporession in the brain, and lights of consiousness go out.

How sensible pressure regulation is yoiu can test yourself if tightly prssing with both hands the left and right side of your neck - you will immediately feel a pressure mounting up in your head, and if you hold tight, it starts to feel very uncomfortable very fast. Also, when you fight with an opponent and get a grab around his neck and his neck into necklock, you can make him oloosing consciousness very fast (necklock is not about cutting off breath, but to stop blood circulation to and from the brain). Now, this is about blood pressure mounting, but when you cut the arteria, is is an almost explosive decompression in the brain, and loss of conscioucness, if the cut is total, happens even faster.

When to slaughter an animal, I think it is good enough to make the cut of the arteria as painless and quick as possible, and giving the animal no sign in advance that something is different this day. A small animal should pass within seconds that way, and a larger one just sliding from the light to the dark side without pain or time for panic. It does not compare to other, more dramtic ways to kill an animal. I once needed to kill a sick, straying dog by arrow, and although hitting and deeply penetrating it's chest from the front, it kept on living for 20 seconds or so, which was no pleasant observation to make. But I only had a swiss pocket knife at hand in that moment, and starting to stab the poor thing with that short blade I imagined to be even more cruel and painful. It possibly did not went optimal that afternoon.

I also saw a film some years ago, about slaughterers, and religious slaugtherers like Jews and muslims use to have to get their meat "clean", whatever that should be. He used a very small, but very sharp knife, and only made a quick cut of some centimeters on the side of the neck to brake the arteria, and did not cut the throat at all. the animals' eyes became calm within 2 or 3 seconds. He also did talk to them, and did it in places outside slaughtering houses, in places the animals could not smell the death of other slaugtered animals.

We are omnivores, and no life exists without taking other life for it's own survival. Even when you eat vegetable only, you take life. the point is to take not more life than necessary, and take it in a way that raises the least ammount of pain and suffering. the more unaware the life being taken is of it's fate, the less fear there is - the better. Vegetable is ideal in this defintion, but many people see it as an extreme to live fully vegetarian, and other people - like me - eat meat on rare occasions only, but nevertheless on these rare occasions: we do. But I almost never buy meat in supermarkets and from mass slaughereig industries. too much chemical and medical drugs and agents in the meat industry, too much suffering for the animals as well, not only from the panic inside slugherhouses, but the often cruel transportations as well. I buy directly from a bio-farmer. More expensive, but as I already said: I don't eat meat often - but when I do, I enjoy it.

[antikristuseke]

Thanks for that clarification Skybird, I'll be sure to take note of that.