Neutrals in a Convoy

[Slateford-5]

I'm in the middle of an enemy convoy, lining up 2 large merchants who are almost in line, one about 400 behind the other. I fire 2 torpedoes at each. So far so good. I dive.

The nearest merchant almost immediately goes down. 60 seconds later there is an explosion and cheering. Then another 60 seconds another explosion. The crew is cheering, but this doesn't quite seem right. Shortly afterwards, there are 3 sunk ship icons on the nav map, 2 red and 1 green. I escape the game and it is clear that in addition to sinking the two merchants, I have also hit and sunk a much smaller neutral (typical: I have fired 3 fish at a small merchant before and it sailed on...)

Replayed the attack, but checked the flags more closely: the merchants are British OK, but a small merchant gets in the way of one of the torpedoes and it's Norwegian (British merchant navy and Norway flags are not the easiest to distinguish at night). Exactly the same thing happens again. Now I am wondering: can you really class a merchant in the middle of an enemy convoy as "neutral"? More than a week previously, there was a message from BdU saying all ships were fair game except American: was that just for show?

Would I be penalised renown for the neutral?

Any thoughts welcome

[SmokinTep]

Neutral means neutral. Doesn't matter if they are in a convoy of enemy ships.

[Canovaro]

I had the same thing and it sucks when that happens because instead of the renown being added, it is drawn. To be honest, I edited some file and changed the renown.
:-?

[Sailor Steve]

Neutral means neutral. Doesn't matter if they are in a convoy of enemy ships.
I disagree. In the Real Deal if they were in a convoy they were fair game.

Slateford-5, do what I did. Go into your My Computer/Program Files/Ubisoft/Silent Hunter III/Data/Cfg folder, and click on the file marked 'Basic'. The third group, right near the top, is [Renown]. Right near the top of that you'll see the awards:

NEUTRAL=-1
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-10

Change it so it says NEUTRAL=0

That way you still won't get a reward for poaching on neutrals, but you won't get a serious ding for sinking one in a convoy. You will still have an incentive to avoid them if you can.




Oh, and WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny:

[mcf1]

Happened to me to. I torpedoed a US C3 cargo by accident :damn: and started to pray that she won't sink, luckily she didn't so there was no penalty for me :cool:

[msalama]

Change it so it says NEUTRAL=0

Done! Thanks Steve :up:

[ozzysoldier]

if you are in a convoy you are fare game :D
made gwx cane solve this in 2.1

[Penelope_Grey]

Only danger of this is... some unscrupulous people may use that as a chance to sink every neutral they find just to get the tonnage from it.:shifty:

[Slateford-5]

Thanks for your replies: I think I may change the cfg file just for this one instance: I'm not expecting to get credit (or even avoid penalty) for a lone neutral sailing a steady course with lights on and the flag illuminated, but a couple of things persuade me:

1. BdU nessage said so (I know they are just for show really).
2. The ship was darkened.
3. It was part of an enemy convoy.
4. I doubt if I sank a convoy neutral and him alone, the destroyers would leave me alone and think "ach well. it wasn't actually our merchant"
5. It was a merchant, coming from either the USA or Canada and obviously heading for a British port.

If you stick your hand into a tank of pirhanas, don't complain if you get bitten. And several other lame excuses...

[danurve]

I do the edit. No Mercy for neutrals transporting war material.
Then again I never go hunting down single neutrals. Waist of a good eel. That and once you get into `42 near everything on the water is shooting at you :ping:

[_Seth_]

well...if it walks like a duck...and quacks like a duck...and swim among other ducks....It's a legal target! :know:

[Brag]

In a convoy--sink the bastards! I don't edit and just take my lumps. :arrgh!:

[Gezoes]

I did what Steve said, and it works great.

The Norwegian government in exile keeps sneaking their small tankers into inbound convoys :arrgh!:

[Sailor Steve]

Only danger of this is... some unscrupulous people may use that as a chance to sink every neutral they find just to get the tonnage from it.:shifty:
Quite true; but those same people might also use external views to navigate through minefields, or have nuclear torpedoes and deck guns that fire 100 rounds per minute.:yep:

[Hanomag]

Kaluens,

I always have enough renown to take penalties if need be. (And thats not adding any).

But as a rule I avoid nuetral ships.

Yet the temptation is great, I have posted numerous times with screenshots of the Irish Supertanker convoy that has been haunting me for years now, one day Ill just sink em. :arrgh!:

[ozzysoldier]

if you are neutral you must use lights

[Sailor Steve]

Not if you're in a convoy.

[Slateford-5]

Not if you're in a convoy.

To which I say, if you are neutral, why are you IN a convoy?

[Sailor Steve]

Not if you're in a convoy.

To which I say, if you are neutral, why are you IN a convoy?
To which I answer, in my infinite wisdom: I don't know.

But they did it.

Sudden thought: maybe they wanted to sell goods to Britain, and thought they'd be safer in company with other ships, rather than be caught alone obviously on a course for Old Blighty.

[Uncle Goose]

They did it because of the pay, Britain paid higher prices than neutral ports for the goods because the shortage was bigger in the UK.

[P-B]

Ok heres one for u all - this happened to me

May 1942, Mid Atlantic, 0930ish, 30m at 2 Kts heading N: SO reports warship and and Merchant contact coming from the W and closing your position. A submerged intercept is an easy prospect so you plot your course and bide your time.
About midday the contacts are slightly further S than you anticipate but you are still E of the contacts and are thus able to close contacts estimated track for a reasonable shot at just under 1.5km come to PD up the scope and...

A Hospital ship lit up like a chrismas tree escorted by an american DD...

I blew the DD away on principle...

after which i surfaced and observed the Hospital ship jinking and overall looking as guilty (of something???) as a puppy sitting next a pile of poo!!

I let her continue unmolested - she is a hospital ship after all, but i suspect she may have been carrying some rather well armed patients???

[Jimbuna]

after which i surfaced and observed the Hospital ship jinking and overall looking as guilty (of something???) as a puppy sitting next a pile of poo!!

Hardly suprising if they've just witnessed you sinking they're protector :lol:

[P-B]

Hardly suprising if they've just witnessed you sinking they're protector :lol:

Oh Yeah!

but what do they need protection from:hmm:

[Jimbuna]

Hardly suprising if they've just witnessed you sinking they're protector :lol:

Oh Yeah!

but what do they need protection from:hmm:

It would appear to be YOU http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/853/shhhhhob3oa7.gif


:rotfl:

[swuboo]

I've often considered reversing the neutral penalty so that I get the same renown as for enemies, and simply restricting myself to the same standards of behavior that would be expected of a real Kaleun. Fair game in escorted convoys or British territorial waters, verboten otherwise. Deck gun warning shot and ten minutes leeway when prize rules are in effect, that sort of thing.

Two things stop me. First, no matter what BdU says in the opening days of the war about avoiding attacks on British capital ships, if the Hood sails past, I sincerely doubt I could resist it. I don't know if I can extend myself this level of trust. I'm confident I wouldn't go around purposefully sinking neutrals when I shouldn't, but I might get lazy about checking the flags in bad weather or at night.

Second, the notion of accidentally sinking a Hospital ship and getting a Ritterkreuz for it is highly disturbing.

[Sailor Steve]

I've often considered reversing the neutral penalty so that I get the same renown as for enemies, and simply restricting myself to the same standards of behavior that would be expected of a real Kaleun. Fair game in escorted convoys or British territorial waters, verboten otherwise. Deck gun warning shot and ten minutes leeway when prize rules are in effect, that sort of thing.
Mine is set for zero. If I go after a neutral I don't get anything for it. If a neutral is in a convoy I don't get penalized for accidentally sinking it. I still have a reason to miss them if I can.

[joegrundman]

U-BOAT WARFARE AGAINST SHIPPING IS AT PRESENT TO BE CARRIED OUT IN ACCORDANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL RULES. ATTACKS ARE TO BE AIMED AT SHIPS WHICH, BY THE PROTOCOL, MAY BE SUNK WITHOUT WARNING: 1.TROOPSHIPS, I.E. VESSELS WHICH ARE OBSERVED TO BE CARRYING TROOPS OR WAR MATERIAL, OR WHICH MAY BE IDENTIFIED IN OTHER WAYS. 2.ANY VESSEL ESCORTED BY ENEMY WARSHIPS OR AIRCRAFT. 3.VESSELS TAKING PART IN ENEMY ACTIONS OR ACTING IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF ENEMY OPERATIONS.


THE CURRENT INTERNATIONAL LAW GOVERNING THE CONDUCT OF NAVAL WARFARE IS INCLUDED IN THE BATTLE ORDERS FOR THE GERMAN NAVY. THE ORDERS ENJOIN THE STRICT OBSERVANCE OF ALL RULES OF NEUTRALITY

ISSUED BY THE INDIVIDUAL COUNTRIES AND OBSERVANCE OF THE GENERAL AGREEMENTS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW. OPERATIONS AGAINST SHIPPING ARE TO BE GOVERNED BY THE REVISED EDITION OF THE PRIZE REGULATIONS. OBSERVANCE OF THE PRIZE REGULATIONS IS ONLY OBLIGATORY IF THE ENEMY SHIPS ARE UNARMED.

These are taken from the GWX message files, and I'm going to asume that these are correctly researched.

In my opinion items 2 of the first quote means that neutrals escorted by british warships in a convoy are legitimate targets according to pre-existing treaties on the subject.

It is not clear to me whether the second and third messages override provision (2) of the first message. As the commander of my boat, i say that the neutral vessel has compromised her own neutrality by accepting British escort

[patuxai]

I do the edit. No Mercy for neutrals transporting war material.
Then again I never go hunting down single neutrals. Waist of a good eel. That and once you get into `42 near everything on the water is shooting at you :ping:


it happened to me also and I was asking myself, how should I act. The very fact is, this american C-3's are fully loaded with tanks, planes, trucks and other war-material. Me, supposed to be a german kaleun, could I really let them pursue unharmed their way to England and deliver their load? The answer is: NO, NEY and NEVER!! If at least I had the possibility to kindly ask them to make demi-tour and turn back to from where they came from, but this option is not present in the game.
So, I prefer to make the suggested changes to the cfg-file, which gives me no awards; I sink them all, but I remain clear with me, the load can not be used against the Reich.
I would like to hear other opinions concerning this matter.

Marcel R. SCHAFFER
Vientiane, Laos PDR

[Bosje]

Somewhere around May 1940 I got a message from BdU saying that anything in convoy and anything in sectors E and F (i think it was e and f anyway and i am assuming that means BE and BF) is fair game but I should take caution against americans and friendly neutrals (like the swedish, i suppose) also it stated that I was free to engage shipping from the countries which had been occupied (dutch, norwegian etc) as long as they were sporting guns as evidence that they had been drawn into the allied war effort. Last but not least, it said I was to sink any ships in an unobtrusive and sneaky fashion, so that the kill could be blamed on a minefield.

I thought those were some pretty cool instructions
not sure which mod it is, or perhaps it's even stock

[bigboywooly]

Tis a double edged sword

A lot of neutral merchants sailed in convoys as was safer than sailing alone and the escorts afforded some protection
Plenty of neutrals were sunk or taken as prizes early on in the war when sailing alone

Bdu KTB 12th October 1939
U 35 entered port.
She sank:
1) English trawler "Arlita" 325 tons
2) " " "Lord Minto" 285 tons
3) a freighter from a convoy 9,000 tons
4) the Belgian S.S. "Suzen" 2,239 tons < Neutral
5) the Greek S.S. "Diamantis" 4,990 tons < Neutral

Bdu KTB 8th November 1939
U 37 entered port.
She sank:
1) S.S. Vistula 1,018 tons Swedish < Neutral
2) S.S. Asis 4,810 tons Greek < Neutral
3) S.S. Vermont 5,186 tons French
4) S.S. Yorkshire 10,183 tons English
5) S.S. Menin Ridge 2,474 tons "
6) S.S. Ledbury 3,528 tons "
7) S.S. Tafna 4,413 tons "
8) S.S. Thrasyroulos 3,693 tons Greek < Neutral

The ON\HN convoys for example between Methil Roads and Bergen - some of those convoys were made up completely of neutral ships BUT with a RN escort
Was the only way the UK could guarantee the safe arrival of much need goods

So maybe was the actions of the uboats themselves attacking neutrals hat forced neutral ships into protected convoys

Tis a pity the game doesnt recognise the fact they are in convoy and adjusted renown accordingly
Meh

[Jimbuna]

I do the edit. No Mercy for neutrals transporting war material.
Then again I never go hunting down single neutrals. Waist of a good eel. That and once you get into `42 near everything on the water is shooting at you :ping:


it happened to me also and I was asking myself, how should I act. The very fact is, this american C-3's are fully loaded with tanks, planes, trucks and other war-material. Me, supposed to be a german kaleun, could I really let them pursue unharmed their way to England and deliver their load? The answer is: NO, NEY and NEVER!! If at least I had the possibility to kindly ask them to make demi-tour and turn back to from where they came from, but this option is not present in the game.
So, I prefer to make the suggested changes to the cfg-file, which gives me no awards; I sink them all, but I remain clear with me, the load can not be used against the Reich.
I would like to hear other opinions concerning this matter.

Marcel R. SCHAFFER
Vientiane, Laos PDR

Welcome aboard patuxai.......I appreciate the dilemma here for us all when it comes to justifying the accidental or otherwise sinking of neutrals.

Personally speaking, I don't think simply changing the CFG file to tweak the renown is the panacea to the problem because you've still expended/wasted whatever number of torpedos to achieve the sinking. http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Phaedrus]

I have always expected to get the odd neutral sinking, as in bad weather / fog I tend to attack ships submerged using sonar only.

No problems so far. (its 1943, and I sail the lower British isles quite a bit, usually if it's there, it's enemy)

In fact, the only time I encountered a significant number of neutrals was down on a road trip near Brazil, and the lights usually prevented me from making a mistake - I have single torpedoed a few in poor weather before I realized I was out-of-order!

I have yet to encounter neutrals in a convoy (hunting AK, Lower BF, upper AM)


But it would add a little something to the game if you were penalized renown for sinking neutrals running with lights, but just awarded no renown / penalized the loss of your torpedoes for sinking neutrals running in convoys / darkened ships.
I'm sure it could be done by playing with the Cfg file... as I seem to recall from the GWX manual that there are a few neutral merchants that run without lights.

[bigboywooly]

I suspect if you alter in the basic cfg

NEUTRAL=-1 < change to 1
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-10

Then alter the lit ships cfgs by adding a minus in front of the renown ( -500 ) - make the renown even higher so you take a real hit
You should get just minus for the lit units and plus for the darkened ones

[patuxai]

I do the edit. No Mercy for neutrals transporting war material.
Then again I never go hunting down single neutrals. Waist of a good eel. That and once you get into `42 near everything on the water is shooting at you :ping:


it happened to me also and I was asking myself, how should I act. The very fact is, this american C-3's are fully loaded with tanks, planes, trucks and other war-material. Me, supposed to be a german kaleun, could I really let them pursue unharmed their way to England and deliver their load? The answer is: NO, NEY and NEVER!! If at least I had the possibility to kindly ask them to make demi-tour and turn back to from where they came from, but this option is not present in the game.
So, I prefer to make the suggested changes to the cfg-file, which gives me no awards; I sink them all, but I remain clear with me, the load can not be used against the Reich.
I would like to hear other opinions concerning this matter.

Marcel R. SCHAFFER
Vientiane, Laos PDR

Welcome aboard patuxai.......I appreciate the dilemma here for us all when it comes to justifying the accidental or otherwise sinking of neutrals.

Personally speaking, I don't think simply changing the CFG file to tweak the renown is the panacea to the problem because you've still expended/wasted whatever number of torpedos to achieve the sinking. http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)



I agree with you, it's a waste of torpedoes, for having refused to be paid on renown, but on the other side not wanted to be penalized. I do not have any *etat d'ame* for having sunk them.
Actually I'm northwest of the Newfoundland Bank chasing a Convoy with an Aux.Cruiser and 3 ships under US Flag. I do'nt know yet, what I will do with them.

Cordially,

Marcel R. Schaffer
Vientiane, Laos PDR

[Sailor Steve]

I suspect if you alter in the basic cfg

NEUTRAL=-1 < change to 1
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-10

Then alter the lit ships cfgs by adding a minus in front of the renown ( -500 ) - make the renown even higher so you take a real hit
You should get just minus for the lit units and plus for the darkened ones
That's a great idea! How do I know which ones are lit?

[Jimbuna]

I do the edit. No Mercy for neutrals transporting war material.
Then again I never go hunting down single neutrals. Waist of a good eel. That and once you get into `42 near everything on the water is shooting at you :ping:


it happened to me also and I was asking myself, how should I act. The very fact is, this american C-3's are fully loaded with tanks, planes, trucks and other war-material. Me, supposed to be a german kaleun, could I really let them pursue unharmed their way to England and deliver their load? The answer is: NO, NEY and NEVER!! If at least I had the possibility to kindly ask them to make demi-tour and turn back to from where they came from, but this option is not present in the game.
So, I prefer to make the suggested changes to the cfg-file, which gives me no awards; I sink them all, but I remain clear with me, the load can not be used against the Reich.
I would like to hear other opinions concerning this matter.

Marcel R. SCHAFFER
Vientiane, Laos PDR

Welcome aboard patuxai.......I appreciate the dilemma here for us all when it comes to justifying the accidental or otherwise sinking of neutrals.

Personally speaking, I don't think simply changing the CFG file to tweak the renown is the panacea to the problem because you've still expended/wasted whatever number of torpedos to achieve the sinking. http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)



I agree with you, it's a waste of torpedoes, for having refused to be paid on renown, but on the other side not wanted to be penalized. I do not have any *etat d'ame* for having sunk them.
Actually I'm northwest of the Newfoundland Bank chasing a Convoy with an Aux.Cruiser and 3 ships under US Flag. I do'nt know yet, what I will do with them.

Cordially,

Marcel R. Schaffer
Vientiane, Laos PDR

Not sure of the date/time in your game, but I'd check the chart 'pullable down' from the top left hand corner of the periscope screen.

If they're still neutral, let them go (the warships that is) and only attack those merchants flying the flag of a hostile nationhttp://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[patuxai]

ok Jimbuna, I try to play fair and let them go.for the date. I'm around may 40, and I play with the Stock version, slightly modded, but nothing unrealistic, the boat is a 7B, deck gun and Twin-Flak fitted. I'm on a new career; my earlier one had suddenly a CTD and everything of hard labour has vanished, had a better tonnage then Der Leise Otto !!!

Marcel R. Schaffer
Vientiane, Laos PDR