Precious Black Hawk

[Skybird]

I am currently watching the documentation "Making of Black Hawk Down", in 30-40 minutes heaps (it'S over 3 hours).

Like other "making of's" For Ridley Scott's major movies, the docu is as exciting like the actual movie itself. Usually I am not interested in such behind-the-scenes films, but with him it is different, because he is fascinating at work, and the projects are monumental, and his sense for visuals is second to no other director alive or dead.

In the docu he said that he did not know if he would get Black Hawks, because they could not be leased for nobody has them except the Pentagon. When he went to Marocco to start shooting, negotiations still were complicated and took much time, so he actually has 6 Hueys waiting in Germany to get painted black, as a reserve option. He had to change timetables because the Black Hawks arrived so late.

Four Black Hawks and Four Little Birds were cramped into just two transports! :huh:
Now I am wondering: is the Black Hawk in any way so secret or special that the US military does not sell it, or is it for sale but so expensive that it is unaffordable for private business? One would assume that a huge helicopter with such a reliable reputation like The Black Hawk would find customers in private business as well?

they had real Deltas and Rangers at the set who acutally were participating in the somalia mission, training and explaining to the actors. They said the scence and the set looked so drastically realistic that they felt stings in their heart and mind and intially withdrew to their inside a while because what Scott let loose at the audience reminded them so much of the reality they went through.

For "Blade Runner", "Gladiator", "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Black Hawk Down", such making of-documentations are available in the extended DVD sets with the according final or director'S cuts. I highly recommend them, even when they all last 3-4 hours usually, they are very well done and absolutely fascinating and lead you through all the production from writing the screenplay a ten thousand times over casting and shooting to post-production and audience reaction.. And Scott if an absolutely fascinatin director, very precise, economic, visual - and yet the calmest person on the set, always totally relaxed. Madness!

And since this film often gets overseen and many even do not know it: his first movie ever, "Duel", already was a visual masterpiece with scenes like from romatic oil paintings. It plays during the Napoleonic wars and is based on a short novel by, I think, Joseph Conrad, like is Coppola's "Apocalypse Now". If you like Scott movies, the typical visual ones, and do not know his debut film, go and get it! It is amazing what he already did there, before he got access to the monster budgets he can use since later produced Alien (Alien is not his first movie!).

[Sailor Steve]

And since this film often gets overseen and many even do not know it: his first movie ever, "Duel", already was a visual masterpiece with scenes like from romatic oil paintings. It plays during the Napoleonic wars and is based on a short novel by, I think, Joseph Conrad, like is Coppola's "Apocalypse Now". If you like Scott movies, the typical visual ones, and do not know his debut film, go and get it! It is amazing what he already did there, before he got access to the monster budgets he can use since later produced Alien (Alien is not his first movie!).
Here in America it was released as The Duellists, and is one of my all-time favorites:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075968/

Keith Carradine and Harvey Keitel in a duel that lasts 15 years! Uniforms and hairstyles change with the period of Napoleon being in and out of power, and the performances are superb, including the dueling styles. I agree; if you've never seen this very fun masterpiece, get it now!:rock:

[Skybird]

And since this film often gets overseen and many even do not know it: his first movie ever, "Duel", already was a visual masterpiece with scenes like from romatic oil paintings. It plays during the Napoleonic wars and is based on a short novel by, I think, Joseph Conrad, like is Coppola's "Apocalypse Now". If you like Scott movies, the typical visual ones, and do not know his debut film, go and get it! It is amazing what he already did there, before he got access to the monster budgets he can use since later produced Alien (Alien is not his first movie!).
Here in America it was released as The Duellists, and is one of my all-time favorites:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075968/

Keith Carradine and Harvey Keitel in a duel that lasts 15 years! Uniforms and hairstyles change with the period of Napoleon being in and out of power, and the performances are superb, including the dueling styles. I agree; if you've never seen this very fun masterpiece, get it now!:rock:

You are right about the title, I messed it up. "Die Duellisten" in German. You remember the ruin of the castle in the mist, at the end when they do their last duel?! Like illustrations for some romantic Jules Verne novel! Fantastic visual impressions.

[mrbeast]

And since this film often gets overseen and many even do not know it: his first movie ever, "Duel", already was a visual masterpiece with scenes like from romatic oil paintings. It plays during the Napoleonic wars and is based on a short novel by, I think, Joseph Conrad, like is Coppola's "Apocalypse Now". If you like Scott movies, the typical visual ones, and do not know his debut film, go and get it! It is amazing what he already did there, before he got access to the monster budgets he can use since later produced Alien (Alien is not his first movie!).
Here in America it was released as The Duellists, and is one of my all-time favorites:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075968/

Keith Carradine and Harvey Keitel in a duel that lasts 15 years! Uniforms and hairstyles change with the period of Napoleon being in and out of power, and the performances are superb, including the dueling styles. I agree; if you've never seen this very fun masterpiece, get it now!:rock:

Haven't seen that film for years!

But from what I can remember it was pretty good, think I'll give Amazon a scan and see if they have a copy in the UK.

Many of Scott's films resemble oil paintings and I think he likes to visualise his films as a painiting.

For example this painting formed part of the inspiration for Gladiator:

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9866/gladiatorsinthearenagicvq7.jpg

This isn't a very good image of the painting, its a brilliant, atmospheric piece.

[RickC Sniper]

I love IMDB.COM because of the fun "trivia" insights.

From that site about "The Duelist"

During the scene where D'Hubert asks Adele to marry him, she starts to laugh. This laughter was not intentional. According to director Ridley Scott (http://imdb.com/name/nm0000631/), she actually has a hard time keeping a straight face since one of the horses has a huge erection.

:p

[Dowly]

I love Ridley Scott's movies. Really a great director. And yes, the BHD's Behind the Scenes was a great look too. :up:

[Skybird]

Okay, movies, fine, but - :) any answer to my question on the Black Hawk's availability?

[Dowly]

Okay, movies, fine, but - :) any answer to my question on the Black Hawk's availability?

You write too long posts. I only read the first 3-4 lines. :rotfl:

[Skybird]

Next, reading the first 3-4 paragraphs would be an improvement! :arrgh!:

[Dowly]

Next, reading the first 3-4 paragraphs would be an improvement! :arrgh!:
I try. :up:

EDIT: Righto, read it. No idea, but yes, it does seem abit silly if the BH is that big of a secret, only used for military purposes. I'm 100% sure tons of private companies would like to buy a civil version of the BH.

[Happy Times]

Okay, movies, fine, but - :) any answer to my question on the Black Hawk's availability?

The Sikorsky S-70 is a medium-lift military helicopter family manufactured by Sikorsky. In the U.S. military, it is operationally known with the US military designation H-60. Civilian versions are also produced under the S-70 model designation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-70


Sikorsky S-92 - Civilian medium-lift derivative of the Black Hawk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-92

Btw. Finland was about to order Black Hawks two months back when the delivery of the NH-90 helicopters was late two years. They got money back and an maintence centre in Finland for NH-90 so the Black Hawk deal didnt go through.

[Dowly]

Btw. Finland was about to order Black Hawks two months back when the delivery of the NH-90 helicopters was late two years. They got money back and an maintence centre in Finland for NH-90 so the Black Hawk deal didnt go through.

Dang! I would've wanted BHs, they look much better than the NH90. :yep:

[bookworm_020]

Australia has both Black hawks and Sea Hawks in it's armed forces. We are also getting the NH-90 as well (around 40 of them)

[Happy Times]

Btw. Finland was about to order Black Hawks two months back when the delivery of the NH-90 helicopters was late two years. They got money back and an maintence centre in Finland for NH-90 so the Black Hawk deal didnt go through.

Dang! I would've wanted BHs, they look much better than the NH90. :yep:

Maybe but NH-90 can take over double the load of UH-60, half more passengers and has a longer range also.
It should also have very modern avionics suit and very good survivability in all conditons. But offcourse we will see what it is made of in the years to come.

[Dowly]

Btw. Finland was about to order Black Hawks two months back when the delivery of the NH-90 helicopters was late two years. They got money back and an maintence centre in Finland for NH-90 so the Black Hawk deal didnt go through.
Dang! I would've wanted BHs, they look much better than the NH90. :yep:
Maybe but NH-90 can take over double the load of UH-60, half more passengers and has a longer range also.
It should also have very modern avionics suit and very good survivability in all conditons. But offcourse we will see what it is made of in the years to come.

True that. :yep:

[Skybird]

Thanks!

[kiwi_2005]

I love IMDB.COM because of the fun "trivia" insights.

:p
Yea i visit IMDB for reviews on movies but it can be misleading, like if 9 ppl vote a movie and give it an above average score then its displayed as 9/10 for example yet it could very well be a flop.

[Takao]

Back when the movie was made, there were a only a handful of Blackhawks being operated by other nations. IIRC, you don't even need your thumbs to count them on your hands.

While the Blackhawk is a fine helicopter, it is expensive to own and fly. With many compbrable helicopters already on the market, there wasn't a need for a civilian Blackhawk. The Huey can do much the same job, costs a lot less, but usually requires more maintenance. Besides there are several Soviet models to choose from. Besides, in the civilian market, why would Sikorsky produce a competitor to their successful S-76 Spirit?

[AntEater]

The global arms market is a strange place, especially when it involves US or European manufacturers.
If you want US military hardware, just forking over the cash doesn't quite cut it anymore, not even if you're a close ally. You get a lot of contractual obligations on how to use the hardware or who you can resell it to. Also, I don't know a single US arms deal in the last few years that actually resulted in any form of profit for the US contractor directly from the customer. The money was made from the US government.
"Cash and carry" works with russians or chinese hardware, but not with US or EU stuff.
Usually it seems the US basically does not sell arms, but gives them away for political leverage.
Austria did buy Black Hawks but the countersale proposals were so hefty the US got zero profit out of it.
Recently, it was a subsim headline that the landing ship India got from the US (a 20+ year old clunker) is forbidden to take part in combat operations. :D
I suppose the only country that can use US weapons without (or at least with the least) restrictions is Israel.
I suppose one reason most european countries "go european" is that this means full control over your weapons.
Germany still has to pay license fees for the source code of the software of the Patriot missile system and will enter similar obligations with the MEADS system.
I suppose restrictions for AMRAAM and Standard missiles are similar.
I've heard the greeks did go russian for their air defence for the simple reason that they want SAMs that work when the Turks attack, and do not get turned off because Turkey is more in favor with Washington than Greece.

[bookworm_020]

If you want US military hardware, just forking over the cash doesn't quite cut it anymore, not even if you're a close ally. You get a lot of contractual obligations on how to use the hardware or who you can resell it to. Also, I don't know a single US arms deal in the last few years that actually resulted in any form of profit for the US contractor directly from the customer. The money was made from the US government.
"Cash and carry" works with russians or chinese hardware, but not with US or EU stuff.
Usually it seems the US basically does not sell arms, but gives them away for political leverage.


I wouldn't say that, look at what we paid for 11 Seasprite Helicopters (Around $1 Billion AUD) After a decade of wait problems and cost blow outs (Almost double the price comparied to what was agreed to) The progam wa scraped. The 9 Helicopters that were delivered (but never flew one op due to equipment problems) are been returned to the maker and are going to be sold for spares. What is the government going to get back for this?? Just 40 Million dollars!:nope::nope::nope:

[Takao]

Hey Bookworm_020,

Why did Australia go for the older Seasprite instead of buying more Seahawks?

[bookworm_020]

Hey Bookworm_020,

Why did Australia go for the older Seasprite instead of buying more Seahawks?

They could fit on to the smaller ANZAC class Frigates that we have. They were going to be equiped with brand new combats systems and weapons (it was a big part of the rpoblem, it never worked as planned).

New Zealand bought some stock standard (and brand new, not 1960 upgrades) for there ANZAC Figates and have used them without any problems for quite awhile:shifty:

Looks like more Seahawks or NH90's! If they fit!:stare:

[Venatore]

I've been in and out of Black Hawks on three separate operational deployments and from my point of view; being that of an infantry soldier; they are a bloody good chopper and the Australian flight crews are No1.

Nothing better to be sitting in the doorway [open] of a Black Hawk, whilst tactical flying in and out of mountains, down rivers and watching the tree-tops scream past the wheels and glancing at your mates all camouflaged up, weapons ready and the door gunner giving you the 2 minute hand signal....pure bliss :D

[TarJak]

I've been in and out of Black Hawks on three separate operational deployments and from my point of view; being that of an infantry soldier; they are a bloody good chopper and the Australian flight crews are No1.

Nothing better to be sitting in the doorway [open] of a Black Hawk, whilst tactical flying in and out of mountains, down rivers and watching the tree-tops scream past the wheels and glancing at your mates all camouflaged up, weapons ready and the door gunner giving you the 2 minute hand signal....pure bliss :DAll you need now is Col. Kilgore's favourite piece of music blaring out over the PA system.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vHjWDCX1Bdw

I love the smell of napalm in the morning... It smells like... Victory!

[bookworm_020]

I've been in and out of Black Hawks on three separate operational deployments and from my point of view; being that of an infantry soldier; they are a bloody good chopper and the Australian flight crews are No1.

Nothing better to be sitting in the doorway [open] of a Black Hawk, whilst tactical flying in and out of mountains, down rivers and watching the tree-tops scream past the wheels and glancing at your mates all camouflaged up, weapons ready and the door gunner giving you the 2 minute hand signal....pure bliss :DAll you need now is Col. Kilgore's favourite piece of music blaring out over the PA system.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vHjWDCX1Bdw

I love the smell of napalm in the morning... It smells like... Victory!

My Wife does a good job whistling this tune!

Venatore, where are you based?

[XabbaRus]

Good movie and well done without being too gungho.

Can you imagine what it would have been like had Jerry Bruckenheimer made it?

[Venatore]

Venatore, where are you based?

Currently at Brisbane [Enoggera]; I've also been posted to Canberra, Townsville, Darwin, Wagga Wagga and the arse end of the world....Tasmania.