I just had a go with the Walter boat

[pythos]

and all I can say is, thank god the war in europe ended when it did.

I looked up the info on this proposed boat, that was on the building ways when Germany surendered, granted in pieces, and the drive wasn't complete.

From the research about the walter drive I did, this simulation is pretty much on the money, maybe even inaccurate with the underwater speed, which is a tad bit slow.

If these boats had come out earlier, perhaps during the happy times, this would have single handedly brought the allied shipping to a stop.

This boat is quite something to witness on the surface with exterior view. Have the engines set at flank, get a good view of the boat crawling along on the surface at 14 kts or more, then engage the drive. The effect is astounding.

I like this little what if, boat. Just how close the allies were to losing is terrifying when you see the things the Germans were coming up with.

[ATR-42]

Its amazing isnt it? no one knows for sure how it would have changed the war but im sure it would have had a strong impact. When i saw my boat hit 30 knots on the surface i about fell over, thats when i started looking at the data online about these boats. Its amazing.

Its hard to believe underwater speeds like ones modeled in the game but when you read about what the Germans had in the works its crazy!

[Raptor1]

It is generally said about several Axis weapons that if they had come earlier, it would've had a signifcant effect on the war, specifically the XXI U-Boat, the Me-262, and the StG44, the XVIII got very little credit because it was never completed, but with the Walther drive it could've been a very decisive strategic weapon, capable of outrunning ships like the US Destroyer Escorts, the Flower class Corvettes, River class Frigates...

[Dowly]

If you ask me, the Walther boat wouldnt have changed the outcome of Battle of Atlantic. More losses for the Allies in terms of shipping, that's for sure but there was just too many ships to be sunk for it to cripple the allies. And let's not forget that the Allies could build ships very fast.

[Raptor1]

We're not talking about a few ships sunk, we're talking about thousands of ASW ships rendered obsolete because they can't catch up to the U-Boats

[Ducimus]

Personnaly, i dont think id want to be onboard whats tantamount to a submerged bomb. :o Them boats were Dangerous to be on! As i recall, its one of the reasons the design was abandoned, aside from costs and logisitcs.

[Dowly]

We're not talking about a few ships sunk, we're talking about thousands of ASW ships rendered obsolete because they can't catch up to the U-Boats

You can have a sub that goes the speed of light, but if the enemy can build ships faster than it's possible to sink them, you've lost the battle.

[Rockin Robbins]

It was the advent of the American hunter-killer jeep carrier groups that spelled doom for the U-Boat. Thirty knots is nowhere near fast enough to outrun a PBY. The Walthers were doomed, launched or not. They just would have provided a more exciting death. And the Germans couldn't build them half as fast as we would sink them.

I'll not go into the years of training necessary before the first one would have seen battle. It would have been 1948 before a single type XVIII could have been deployed as a military asset.

I still look forward to playing with it!

[Zantham]

Yes as Ducimus said they were underwater bombs... H2O2 is very unstable and explosive.

However the Walther boat didn't have to outrun the escorts or HK groups, they just had to go fast enough that the destroyers couldn't use their sonars to track them. Imagine chasing one of these things that had gone deep (possibly 900 feet deep?). Now its moving away from you at over 20kts. You can hear it, but when you try to catch up to it your sonar guy goes deaf. So you have to slow down again to get a bearing in case the wily uboat captain changed course, dropped a decoy, or whatever. Remember he can go 200kms at 24kts. And at any time he thinks he lost the escorts go back to regular battery propulsion to go silent. By the time he has to surface (or snorkel?) hes over 300kms away!

So it would not have been quite so easy to catch as the regular uboats. It would have brought another happy time in 1943 maybe, but its very likely the Allies would have adapted their tactics and eventually started sinking them again, tho maybe not as easily as they caught the regular uboats.

I remember reading somewhere of an XXI captain doing an attack on an escorted group. As he closed he dropped some decoys that the destroyers picked up, and they could hear the XXI going, but they had no idea what they were dealing with, and because of the speeds the uboat was making they dismissed it as an unexplained phenomenon. The XXI did get into position, and would have fired, except the war was just over at this point. He then broke off and continued to wherever, never having come under attack.

[Rockin Robbins]

And when it pops its ugly head up there's a PBY waiting to tag it. The very act of firing a torpedo would be death to the Type XXI or Type XVIII. The PBYs had air dropped sonarbuoys and Fidos. I'm sure other weapons would have been quickly developed as well.

The only hope for the Germans would be the old strategy of overwhelming the defenses, and that just wasn't in the cards with their inability to produce these boats in hiding. Production facilities would have been wiped out as quickly as they were built.

I'm afraid the Type XVIII and Type XXI were just a lost hope before they could even be put into service.

[DS]

U-Boats can't win if their bases are radioactive wastelands under a mushroom cloud. The Allies got the bomb first, and were willing to use it. Strategically, U-Boats were irrelevant after that. Submarines would not become strategic weapons platforms again until the advent of the SSBN.

[pythos]

The atom bomb was not available when the first research on the walter drive was going on (1939). The type XXI would have been quite devistating, but one with the sprint ability the walter had, would be much more of an advesary.

Remember, the PBYs could not hear under water, they were in the air. They could not see down more than 100 meters, if that. The Walter boat would have dissapeared for the airborne scout.

It takes a long time for a deph charge to drop to 400 ft, which the type XXI was found to exceed with not so much a creak while under tests by the allies following the war. By the time the bomb got to the deph, the walter would have been long away from the area.

Why do you all think the type XXI, became the basis for early american cold war subs, and most if not all soviet subs until the second generation nuclear subs? Because it was way ahead of its time, and would have been a very scary advesary for the allies to deal with.

[Rockin Robbins]

In a famous interview where he said the Type XXI and Type XVIII would not have turned the tide of war. I agree. They would have been sitting ducks just waiting for someone to say goodbye. Training was impossible. Achieving numbers was impossible. US planes had droppable sonobuoys, which took DDs right out of the picture. The slave labor necessary to build anything was beginning to feel bold enough to engage in meaningful sabotage. The war was over. The vast majority of good U-Boat crews were dead. Isolated success would have had the same effect as the ME-262: nothing.

And like Ducimus said. The Walther was a bomb. All that would have been necessary was a near miss, the likes of which would merely have shaken other subs to make the sub itself into a very effective depth charge. The Walther design was as flawed as the ME-163 Komet. Kaboom! They were nice looking toys with more bark than bite.

[Schnee]

Its an interesting toy with the added speed. It certainly massacres lightly escorted convoys.

But it seems to be sort of a hit an run weapon. Doesn't have the regular fule "legs" of the D-2 . You are tied more closely to your bases it seems

[AkbarGulag]

A small amount of H202 sunk the Kursk. Despite my love of submarines, Fleet or U, the boat would have failed.

For example, the walther boat becomes active and is deemed a serious threat, America and England decide that NZ and Australia are expendable (England more or less did), then the Americans take all the hardware from the PTO to the Atlantic. All those man hours of work on things for the pacific theatre poured into the euopean theatre spells instant doom for any 'super' sub the Germans could have built. Add to that the dangerous soup those submariners are floating on and the job gets even easier for the allies.

Even having a working verison in the German armoury 12 months earlier would have changed nothing for the axis... some small territorial gains in the east for a briefer european theatre IMO.

[Rockin Robbins]

Imagine the returns if Germany would have taken 250 U-Boats from the fruitless Atlantic campaign and transfered them to the Pacific, along with crack crews and production facilities for torpedoes and more U-Boats to Japan and Rabaul. Imagine if these 250 subs had the job of controling the choke points with the goal of hunting US subs and supply ships. The 20 knot acoustic homing torpedoes would be the star of the show. US warships would be bonus prizes in this interesting little adventure.

Suppose the Germans had had a little wider vision? I think they could have made trouble for quite awhile longer than they actually did.

[AkbarGulag]

...talk surely won't get us flamed :p

Interesting proposition. Lets say that the loss of sunk tonnage of England doesn't excel the start of the western front (that 250 boats will no longer contribute to), then it could be argued that the pacific is a hell of a place to combat a determined and trained submarine force. After all, the Japanese failed at it, whats to say the Americans wouldn't have had the same difficulty when faced with 250 U-boats. The Americans certainly didn't have vital supply lines throughout the pacific till much later in the war, but Australasia would certainly be a target for isolation. American expansion could have been hindered if they tried to 'hold' any significant number of bases in the pacific :hmm: Considering Japan was an Island nation, and their main strategic interests were in China, it may have held off the Americans from closing in on Japans home islands. If that was the case, it's safe to say India could have been seriously threatened in that scenario also.

[Takao]

Problems abound with this scenario Rockin Robbins and AkbarGulag,

Throughout the entire war Germany only produced 193 Type IXs of all types. The Type VII could not make the long trip "round the Horn" without tankers for refueling. Even the Type IXs needed a "drink" to make it. Then you had the Allies sinking the U-boats on the way to Japan. While pre-1943 the few U-boats that were sailing to patrol around Capetown encountered few troubles, U-boats sailing after mid-1943 ran a 50-50 chance of being sunk.

Moving on to logistics. How in the world could Germany provide an adequate supply of fuel and torpedoes for 250 U-boats half-a-world-away? Even constructing a production facility for torpedoes is of little use. To be of any use, all the parts of the torpedoes would have to be produced locally; and that means the gears, tubing engines, batteries, ets. Even then, the facility might reach 100-200 torpedoes a month. And thats provided an adequate supply of raw materials. During WW2 the all German torpedo production varied between 1,000 and 1,700 a month. Although, it would probably be easier to adapt(if possible) the German tubes to fire Japanese torpedoes(given that Japanese torps were roughly 2 meters longer).

Then, you have to fuel all those U-boats. Germany had a few tankers to supply the U-boats based in the Far-East, but even those were inadequate to supply the U-boats that operated there historically. The Japanese would be of little help, since their fuel supply problems are well known.

Another thing, Germany would derive no "benefit" from sending 250 U-boats to the Pacific. The only one gaining anything is Japan, as it would help her to cut-off and possibly conquer the Aussies. I don't see Germany doing this without getting something major in return. And Japan had nothing of immediate vital importance to offer.

For such a scenario to work, it had to be started well before the onset of WW2. With everything in place(the factories, fuel, munitions, and U-boats), it is a much more plausible scenario. But that means tipping of the Allies(especially the US), who would start re-armament policies much earlier in our time-line. This in turn means many more ships and planes when the US enters the war, not to mention the fact that with Germany moving into the Pacific. The US is more likely to enter the war on Great Britain's side, instead of waiting for an "overt act" by Japan.

Food for though.

I feel this strang need to play the old boardgame "Axis and Allies" or run "Hearts of Iron II" for some reason.

[Sailor Steve]

Remember, the PBYs could not hear under water, they were in the air. They could not see down more than 100 meters, if that. The Walter boat would have dissapeared for the airborne scout.
But the sub has to come to periscope depth to shoot, and there were more and more blimps helping with the escort, not to mention the hunter-killer groups' fighters. Yes, if they could have had all that wonderful technology up-and-running in 1939 they would have made a huge difference.

But they couldn't.

[The Fishlord]

Another thing, Germany would derive no "benefit" from sending 250 U-boats to the Pacific. The only one gaining anything is Japan, as it would help her to cut-off and possibly conquer the Aussies. I don't see Germany doing this without getting something major in return. And Japan had nothing of immediate vital importance to offer.

Well Germany did some strange things during the war. At the end of 1944 or so they apparently sent a U-boat load of bomb-grade U235 (uranium) to Japan. No benefit there, or maybe German and Japanese secret-weapon projects were a little closer-tied than anybody suspects even today.

[Takao]

It was mid-April, 1945, the U-boat was U-234. Less than one month before Germany surrendered. Germany could have sent the nuclear material earlier(probably not as much), but she didn't.

While both sides were successful on the battlefield, their co-operation was almost non-existant. They had no combined strategy that could have led to an Axis victory. It wasn't until 1943-1944 that Germany and Japan pursued a more closer relationship. Finally, in late 1944-45, Germany began giving her new technology to Japan in a "fire-sale" fashion.

Bad pun I know.

Hey folks, It's Adolph "Crazy" Hitler again! Our factories have been bombed to rubble and we're going out of business! So everything must go! We have a King Tiger, only missing a few road wheels, but it still moves. ME-262, missing one engine but it still flies. One moderatly depth-charged U-Boat. Cheap! Cheap! Cheap! Can't come to us, not a problem, we still deliever! It's all gotta go. Go! GO!

[mikeydredd]

Interesting discussion guys. And hindsight is a wonderful thing. It's great fun to explore "what if" scenarios and our hobby makes that a fascinating prospect.

Unfortunately the facts are, as ever, rather more banal.

Adolph Hitler was a European fascist dictator whose only military experience was as a corporal in the army and saw militery campaigns as primarily land battles.

His obsession and single motivating factor for going to war was the destruction of Bolshevism, ie Soviet communism in Russia and, once he had accomplished that, the creation of "living space" there for the future expansion of the German "master race".

He had virtually no understanding of the strategic importance of naval power projection on a world scale as it was irrelevant, as he saw it, to his struggle in Russia, which of course, was a land battle.

He needed a quick victorious local war so concentrated on developing weapons systems with short term tactical value, ie jet and rocket technology and consequently had very little inclination to develop long term strategic weapons systems such as nuclear weapons, as he thought he wouldn't need them. Fortunatly he chose not to develop nuclear weapons and stick them in his rockets.

He had very little strategic appreciation of the massive industial might of the US and held them in contempt.

As he saw it, there was really two wars going on at the same time. His war against Soviet Russia, and Japan's war against the US.

He fatally ignored the fact that Japan, as his ally, could have joined the struggle against Russia and, working together, probably would have defeated the soviets in 1942. It was "his" war!

And subsequently he was defeated by being at war with the two greatest industrial powers the world had ever seen. It would not have made any difference to the end result no matter how many jets, tiger tanks, rockets, subs, or anything else German industry could have made.

It took time, but they could not have won.

Which is why they lost. Thank god.

Dredd out. :arrgh!:

[Hartmann]

Yes as Ducimus said they were underwater bombs... H2O2 is very unstable and explosive.

However the Walther boat didn't have to outrun the escorts or HK groups, they just had to go fast enough that the destroyers couldn't use their sonars to track them. Imagine chasing one of these things that had gone deep (possibly 900 feet deep?). Now its moving away from you at over 20kts. You can hear it, but when you try to catch up to it your sonar guy goes deaf. So you have to slow down again to get a bearing in case the wily uboat captain changed course, dropped a decoy, or whatever. Remember he can go 200kms at 24kts. And at any time he thinks he lost the escorts go back to regular battery propulsion to go silent. By the time he has to surface (or snorkel?) hes over 300kms away!

So it would not have been quite so easy to catch as the regular uboats. It would have brought another happy time in 1943 maybe, but its very likely the Allies would have adapted their tactics and eventually started sinking them again, tho maybe not as easily as they caught the regular uboats.



Yes, it´s the tactic used by the actual diesel electric submarines (still in use ) like kilo.

i´m sure that a good number of these boats arround england during 1942-43 could make very difficult the build of an invassion force for a second front.

Yes , allied could build a lot of ships, but it takes a lot of resources .

And if you have fidos and sonar detectors, this weapons have to deal with a 25 knts target, probably using sonar coating, antiradar coating in periscopes and snorkel, detectors and countermeasures.

How many time could take a crash dive from periscope depth for a walter boat with the drive engaged ??

[LukeFF]

He fatally ignored the fact that Japan, as his ally, could have joined the struggle against Russia and, working together, probably would have defeated the soviets in 1942. It was "his" war!

Two words: Khalkin Gol

[mikeydredd]

He fatally ignored the fact that Japan, as his ally, could have joined the struggle against Russia and, working together, probably would have defeated the soviets in 1942. It was "his" war!
Two words: Khalkin Gol

I think you will find that by the winter of 1941 Zhukov and many of the units he used to defend Khalkin Gol had moved west to defend Moscow, trying to stop the 2nd Pz Div, among others, from parking its tanks in Red Square. The opportunity for Japan to strike west was there. They were unwilling to take it for a host of reasons. Not least of which was the complete absence of any urging from their ally, the Germans, that they should, despite the fact that most of the Soviet army was now engaged against them. Not sound strategic thinking imho.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

I did a little research in the Walther boats and there where a total of 4 versions produced starting with the V80, only one was built and used for research. The first versions of the type XVIII where the XVIIA and XVIIB as more research vessels. A total of 7 of these where made, 4 of the XVIIA and 3 of the XVIIB, but they where only commissioned. The last was the XVIII and where never built. Had they been built they would have greatly changed the U-Boat war in Germanys favor. If more funding and more research had been made the sciencetists would have found a better fuel than H2O2. Check it out here http://www.uboat.net/types/walter.htm .

[Torplexed]

He fatally ignored the fact that Japan, as his ally, could have joined the struggle against Russia and, working together, probably would have defeated the soviets in 1942. It was "his" war!
Two words: Khalkin Gol
I think you will find that by the winter of 1941 Zhukov and many of the units he used to defend Khalkin Gol had moved west to defend Moscow, trying to stop the 2nd Pz Div, among others, from parking its tanks in Red Square. The opportunity for Japan to strike west was there. They were unwilling to take it for a host of reasons. Not least of which was the complete absence of any urging from their ally, the Germans, that they should, despite the fact that most of the Soviet army was now engaged against them. Not sound strategic thinking imho.
Even with minimal defenders I don't think a Japanese attack on the Soviet Union would have aided Germany much. Eastern Siberia back then was a mostly trackless wilderness supplied by one slender rail line with no large cities or sources of supply, it is not suited for modern war in 1941, and even now would be a logistical nightmare to keep an army supplied in. Japan was ill-equipped to fight in the sub-Arctic as their reckless invasion of the Aleutians demonstrated. Plus, Japan badly needed oil and it wasn't until well after the war that a booming oil and gas industry was developed in Siberia. Those factories that Stalin shipped east during Operation Barbarossa were mostly resettled near the Urals. That's about 2,000 miles of endless swamps, forests and rivers from the Manchurian border. Territory the Russians could easy afford to play the space for time game with. Vladivostok would probably fall, but it was expendable. There was still the Persian overland route for Allied supplies.

[Pikes]

Vorsprung Durch Technik. You have to admire the technological leaps during wartime. From this era the Germans have acquired a fantastic reputation for solid engineering over a range of aspects. Cars, optics, electronics and so on.

[Rockin Robbins]

I did a little research in the Walther boats and there where a total of 4 versions produced starting with the V80, only one was built and used for research. The first versions of the type XVIII where the XVIIA and XVIIB as more research vessels. A total of 7 of these where made, 4 of the XVIIA and 3 of the XVIIB, but they where only commissioned. The last was the XVIII and where never built. Had they been built they would have greatly changed the U-Boat war in Germanys favor. If more funding and more research had been made the sciencetists would have found a better fuel than H2O2. Check it out here http://www.uboat.net/types/walter.htm .
We'd all have a merry Christmas!:rotfl:

What does the word "they" mean? Does it mean that if the Starship Enterprise had beamed down 300 of them with crack crews (thereby allowing about 80 on patrol at sea at any one time, optomistically) the Battle of the Atlantic would have been greatly changed? Or do you make allowances for building the production facilities for these boats? Or do you make allowances for the training (virtually from scratch!) of crews from these boats? Or do you make allowances for the instability of the H2O2 propulsion system, KABOOM! They DID produce Me-163s. They were a grand but worthless gesture against fleets of over 1000 bombers. Or do you make allowances for the inability to protect any mythical production facilities long enough to produce enough of these boats to produce any results? How about the inability of the factory building to withstand British and American bombing attacks? How about the necessity to remove productive crews from the theater of war to train for months in these Rube Goldberg contraptions?

None of this was doable and the Germans could not have had a merry Christmas. They had no more choices to make which would have changed the outcome of the Battle of the Atlantic or the war. Their only choices were when would they lose and who would die in the process.

[mikeydredd]

This is the point I was trying to make. The only window of opportunity available to the Germans to win the war, or at least their part of the war, was in the late 1941- mid 1942 timescale, by knocking the Russians out. The Japanese were well placed with their armies in Manchuria to help. They didn't make the most of that opportunity. And subsequently lost the strategic initiative to the Russians and then the Americans in deciding the future conduct of the war.

Panacea weapons systems such as fancy U boats, no matter how technologically advanced, could not and did not alter that fact. An exact analogy would be their development of their Tiger tanks. Very fine weapons, far superior in many ways to anything the allies had, yet made in such small numbers that they accomplished nothing in any strategic sense, apart from tie up vast amounts of very scarce German resources, which arguably could have been better spent elsewhere.

I entirely agree with Rockin Robbins. The only thing they were then in a position to decide was how long they would keep on fighting, hoping to delay the by then inevitable conclusion of WW2, which was that they would lose. Quite simply as, strategically, they were not in a position to win it.

It could be argued that they were never in a position to "win", certainly not after the US became involved. They came closest to it in the winter of 1941, and then the summer of 1942. The Japanese could have helped in the winter of 1941 by tying up Russian units facing them, rather than allowing these units, lead by Zhukov, by then virtually the only Russian commander of any talent left, to be moved west to successfully defend Moscow.

And thank god for that, which is why I'm writing this in English rather than German.

Have nice day!:sunny:

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm thinking that Japanese landwar stategy wasn't advanced enough to be a real help to the Germans against the Russkies. It seems to me that the help should have gone in the other direction, with the transfer of 300 U-Boats, crews, support and production facilities to Japan. If this had been done in early 1942 to the middle of 1943 the amount of resources the Allies would have had to tie up in the Pacific would have given Germany much breathing room.

Fortunately, actually helping out an ally was a foreign idea for the Wermacht.

[bigboywooly]

Fortunately, actually helping out an ally was a foreign idea for the Wermacht.

Interesting

So Fliegerkorps X ( Luftwaffe ) being sent to Italy to bomb Malta wasnt help
Or
Operation Sonnenblume ( Wehrmacht ) which saw the Afrika Korp despatched to North Africa in early 41 as the Italians were close to collapse wasnt help
Or
The formation of the 23rd and 29th U flotillas ( Ubootwaffe ) in the Med ?

I dont think there would of been any chance of sizable resources going to Japan\Pacific as the Germans simply didnt have them , even more so after bailing out the Italians in the med

[Wilcke]

Your right!

Il Duce's insecurity and need to be in the limelight were perfect setups for his disaster in Greece and the battles for North Africa. These two theaters distracted Hitler and vital resources from the Barbarosa order of battle. The need to rescue Il Duce proved to be just more nails in the coffin for Hitler and his minions.

[jas39]

The Axis were doomed to fail...anyone who invades and occupies another ethnic society will sooner or later meet armed, relenteless resistance, especially from nations such as russia and china.

[mikeydredd]

The Axis were doomed to fail...anyone who invades and occupies another ethnic society will sooner or later meet armed, relenteless resistance, especially from nations such as russia and china.

...... or Iraq!

[Rockin Robbins]

How about the Norman invasion of Britain? Or the Roman occupation of Britain, for that matter? There are plenty of examples (Alexander the Great) where invasion did not result in implacable resistance. How about the Allied invasion of the European continent at D-Day? American occupation of Japan? Union invasion of the Confederacy?

Invasion is like going to court. Anything can happen and justice has nothing to do with it.

On the other issue, I wonder if Italy could be considered an ally of Germany at all?:-j Militarily, they were thoroughly incompetent and just too decent a people to be any help for the Nazi cause. Italians saved many more Jews in their society than the French did! The vast majority of Italians just refused to participate in the Jewish extermination programs and actively shielded Italian Jews from persecution. Italians were tempermentally unsuited for the dark side.

I think Hitler was not helping Italy, but doing the opposite: attempting to dominate a reluctant but grandiose misfit. In effect he was occupying an ally!

[Wilcke]

Oh and Spain with the Moorish invasion....they spent 800 years there prior to the "reconquista".

[mikeydredd]

I think we are in danger of getting way off topic now. But I'm going to have to take issue with a couple of points RR.

The Roman invasion of Britain faced continual resistance from the local population for hundreds of years. Queen Boadacea springs to mind to name just one. Why do you think the Romans felt the need to build hundreds of fortified towns and forts up and down the country? Hadrian's wall was built to try prevent these constant uprisings. It was only after a long period of time, when the Roman invaders had largely assimilated into the local population, adopting many of their customs and religious practices, that resistance petered out. Indeed the "Romans" who lived in Britain towards the end of their empire, regarded themselves as primarily British.

As for the Norman invasion, I seem to remember that they had it hard right from the start,(the battle of Hastings!) despite having, as they saw it, a legitimate claim the English crown. Resistance was so widespread and endemic that they had to write the Domesday Book, just to find out what was in front of their eyes, as the locals wouldn't even tell them how many chickens they had!!! Why do you think they felt the need to buld fortified towns and castles the length and breadth of Britain? And again, English resistance only really stopped when the Normans had become so anglicised that they had become indestinguishable from the local population.

Tha allied landings on D day as I remember it, was to relieve Europe from the occupation of Nazi Germany and was hugely welcomed by all the indiginous populations of those countries, who saw it as liberation. With maybe the exception of certain elements in France.

The US occupation of Japan at the end of WW2 was not as a result of an invasion. The US used their atom bombs so as to prevent the need for a costly and bloody invasion of the Japanese mainland. The US merely occupied a defeated land that had already signed a peace agreement with them. And this occupation was primarily aimed at preventing any possibility of the still largely intact and undefeated Japanese army from being re-activated and re starting hostilities. Indeed General MacArthur went to very great lengths to try and prevent the Japanes feeling that they were being occupied by anyone at all!

As for the "occupation" of the South by the North after the Civil War, that would open a whole can of contentious worms which I'm not prepared to go into.

It seems the lessons of history regarding one nation invading and occupying another are very clear. This happens for one of two, sometimes both, reasons. The invasion occurs because either 1: that country feels threatened, or at least pretends to feel threatened, and/or 2: it wants to exploit the raw materials of the invaded country for its own ends.

The invading nation then faces one of two possible results:
it either stays for so long that it largely becomes part of the invaded nation, adopting its customs, religion and language, so that in effect it becomes that nation. It goes native;
or it chooses not to do this, is then seen as an occupation force, and is booted out sooner or later by the locals, probably with the help of someone else.

Lessons that are as valid today as they have always been!! And you are right - justice has absolutely nothing to do with it.

As for the Italians in WW2, just ask yourself how many times they changed sides. Was it three, or four?!! Certainly the Germans did see themselves as occupying Italy towards the end of the war, who by then they regarded as totally unreliable, and their vicious treatment of the local population at that time is very well documented.


Anyway, enough of this. We should be discussing subsimming. Which is much better fun.:)

The dreddster out.:arrgh!:

[Capt Jack Harkness]

I did a little research in the Walther boats and there where a total of 4 versions produced starting with the V80, only one was built and used for research. The first versions of the type XVIII where the XVIIA and XVIIB as more research vessels. A total of 7 of these where made, 4 of the XVIIA and 3 of the XVIIB, but they where only commissioned. The last was the XVIII and where never built. Had they been built they would have greatly changed the U-Boat war in Germanys favor. If more funding and more research had been made the sciencetists would have found a better fuel than H2O2. Check it out here http://www.uboat.net/types/walter.htm .

What about the Type XXIII? Sure it was a tiny little boat with only two torpedoes and no reloads, but it was the only Walther powered U-boat to enter service. In a way, the Type XXIII is kinda like an overgrown torpedo with a small crew (as many of you know, the Russians did and still do use H2O2 for torpedo fuel).

[Fincuan]

What about the Type XXIII? Sure it was a tiny little boat with only two torpedoes and no reloads, but it was the only Walther powered U-boat to enter service. In a way, the Type XXIII is kinda like an overgrown torpedo with a small crew (as many of you know, the Russians did and still do use H2O2 for torpedo fuel).

Type XXIII is the smaller "elektroboot", the little brother of type XXI. It had a normal diesel/electric drive, and the only Walther about it was the hull, which I believe was based on his work(if not designed by him).

[Herr Minger]

Where can I find thr walter Boat for u-boat SH4?

[gimpy117]

The speed of the german boats were impressive, but somthing tells me that they couldn't hold that for long.

basically, I don't think the boats were much more stealthy than a VIIC or IX, so sure, you could have a better shot at gettign away at 20knts in the electro boat, but eventually you will be found and you better hope your quiet.

[Frame57]

The "Walther boat" used in the game is really a type XXI, that somehow had the Walter turbine. But the XXI boats without the H2O2 turbines could acheive 17 knts submerged, which is pretty good. It was propelled by 2 SSW 2500 bhp electric motors when submerged that coupled with it's streamlined hull made these speeds available.
It was the Wa201 type XVII that was deemed the true "Walter boat" in reference to Dr. Helmuth Walter. The H202 was broken down using a catalyst to provide steam and oxygen, them mixed with water and diesel fuel to produce combustion. The system worked superbly and was not a time bomb at all. One was even used by the Royal navy after the war and it was renamed the HMS Meteorite.:know:

[Fincuan]

The "Walther boat" used in the game is really a type XXI, that somehow had the Walter turbine.

The two boats have extremely similar hulls, so they look like twins. The one in SH4 is however supposed to be a type XVIII (http://uboat.net/types/xviii.htm). As you know it was actually never completed, but its hull design was put into service as the XXI.

[Frame57]

The "Walther boat" used in the game is really a type XXI, that somehow had the Walter turbine.

The two boats have extremely similar hulls, so they look like twins. The one in SH4 is however supposed to be a type XVIII (http://uboat.net/types/xviii.htm). As you know it was actually never completed, but its hull design was put into service as the XXI.I respectfully disagree a total of 62 type XXIII were completed and ebtered the war before it ended. It the 23 boat had a length of 34.7m a beam of 3m with a crew of 14. The XXI boat was twice the size with a crew of 57. My info comes from Horst Bredow founder of the U boat archive in Cuxhaven-Altenbruch. The info is dead accurate:up:

[Fincuan]

a total of 62 type XXIII were completed:

Your info is correct, but I was talking about the XVIII(18), not the XXIII(23).

[Hitman]

The "Walther boat" used in the game is really a type XXI, that somehow had the Walter turbine

Well that's exactly what a Type XVIII was :) A XXI with a walter turbine :D

The system worked superbly and was not a time bomb at all. One was even used by the Royal navy after the war and it was renamed the HMS Meteorite.:know:

IIRC the Royal Navy dropped that design and research line precisely because of the dangers involved :hmm: I think even some explosions were registered while doing tests with the design :-?

[FIREWALL]

Anybody have some ingame screenshots they would kindly post ?

I'd like to see this boat in action. :D

I guess I'll have to get U-BOOT Missions now. :damn: :D

[Syxx_Killer]

These are the only shots I have and they are from a while back. I was working on a mission I ultimately scrapped. While testing the mission I decided to have some fun. I surfaced, engaged the turbine, and ordered flank speed. Needless to say, they weren't happy to see me. :o

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/Syxx_Killer/SH4%20Shots/SH4Img2008-04-27_163510_031.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/Syxx_Killer/SH4%20Shots/SH4Img2008-04-27_163516_000.jpg

I hate to shamelessly plug my missions, :oops: but if you want to take a Type XVIII for a spin without having to do the main campaign I did a few missions and a war patrol for the XVIII.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=135971

[Frame57]

That shot gives "beachcombing" a whole new meaning:rotfl:

[Frame57]

The "Walther boat" used in the game is really a type XXI, that somehow had the Walter turbine

Well that's exactly what a Type XVIII was :) A XXI with a walter turbine :D

The system worked superbly and was not a time bomb at all. One was even used by the Royal navy after the war and it was renamed the HMS Meteorite.:know:

IIRC the Royal Navy dropped that design and research line precisely because of the dangers involved :hmm: I think even some explosions were registered while doing tests with the design :-?I have some info on the XVIIb, but cannot find a type XVIII. Becuase according the U Boat archive the (17b and the Wa201 did have similar hull designs, but the 21 boats were twice the size. I am putting together a photo scrapbook of U boats and if you source me to some info on the XVIII it would be great! Thanks:up:

[Hartmann]

The speed of the german boats were impressive, but somthing tells me that they couldn't hold that for long.

basically, I don't think the boats were much more stealthy than a VIIC or IX, so sure, you could have a better shot at gettign away at 20knts in the electro boat, but eventually you will be found and you better hope your quiet.

In real life the XXI boat had a silent running speed of 6-7 knts, a big difference compared with the VII or IX-C :hmm:

[pythos]

The type XXI was the stopgap design based off of the failing type XVIII boat. Both were Walter designed. The type XXI's stearn and rudder were quite different from the proposed type XVIII.

Both designs had the figure eight hull cross section. On the type XVIII it was proposed for much of the lower section of the hull was to be tanks to hold the h2o2 to power the Walter turbine. The XXI utilized these tank areas for batteries, and a whole hell of a lot of batteries. The diesles of the type XXI were not directly connected to the propeller shafts and instead turned generators which charged the batteries, which in turn powered the drive motors for surface propulsion. Very similar to the American designs except faster underwater.

The type XXIII was a replacement for the type II, and was also a Walter design with the figure 8 hull. But was never equipped with the turbine. It was just about the same length, but smaller on the inside, faster underwater, but not as fast as the XXI, and definitely not as deep diving. It was also armed less than the type II. (two torpedoes, compared to five of the type II)

The type XVIII was in fact produced, but the hulls that were to be the type XVIII were redesignated for the NEWER, type XXI design. So no true examples of the type XVIII ever met the water. (thank god, for the crews of these explosive boats, and the crews of the convoys that would have been decimated by them)

[AntEater]

History and other things aside, the RN took up the Walther propulsion after the war with the Explorer class. The submarines were named "Exploder" class because of numerous explosions. Also known as the "blonde" class because in the 1950s h2o2 was mainly used to bleach the hair of Marilyn and the likes.
Actually, according to Wikipedia, the unarmed Explorer class was not thought as a proof of concept, but rather as a "disproof of concept"! The two subs were comissioned to prove they were NOT useful! Imagine serving on a sub build to fail....
Also these were supposed to simulate ASW targets, as many assumed the USSR would start mass producing Walter subs. The USSR AFAIK did never take up Walter engines for submarine propulsion, only for torpedoes. They did build the Quebec class submarines, but these used a closed cycle diesel, not a Walter turbine.
I don't know how the RN did it, but in german service, the H2o2 was to be stored in rubber bladders suspended in the lower part of the vessel. This installation does not sound like it could stand a lot of depth charges.

[Defiance]

Thing is guys, The British had bust the german coding, even when another wheel was added to the machine

Generally whitehall knew orders etc before the u-boat captains

This was kept from the americans for sometime for one reason or another, several convoys were sacrificed to keep the secret safe (sad but in general you can see the point)

So i'd guess the new sub/s would of been hunted down just like the older boats

Thus maybe not having a massive impact as maybe thought

My 2c worth

[Raptor1]

How...how old is this thread?

Anyway, the XVIIIs and the XXIs would probably not have changed the outcome of the Second Battle of the Atlantic, but they could very well have brought on a Third Happy Time because nearly every single standard Convoy escort vessel (DEs, Frigates and Corvettes) could not catch up with them

[Gorshkov]

Aside of all historical and technical stories above I'd like to know two things:

1. How to enable diesel (Walther turbine propulsion) engines on type XVIII U-boat when submerged. Now if I submerge only electric engines start automatically and that is why I can travel only a couple of knots at maximum speed. :shifty:

2. How to set playable type XVIII in SH4 Mission Editor to be able to use it in the mission. Now if I choose this sub I always get type IXD-2 as my playable unit every time.

[Raptor1]

1. The XVIII can't run the diesels submerged, it can run the Walther H2O2 Turbine, push the red button on top of the fuel thingy

2. You just need to make a mission that starts after April, 1944, I think...

[Gorshkov]

1. The XVIII can't run the diesels submerged, it can run the Walther H2O2 Turbine, push the red button on top of the fuel thingy
Yes! I could not find that! However no manual is shipped with U-boat Mission add-on. :-?


2. You just need to make a mission that starts after April, 1944, I think...
It seems I messed something with TMO/RBT mods installation. Sometimes XVIII is accessible in my missions and sometimes not. I will probably have to reinstall entire game...

[rls669]

So the XVIII is like a XXI but with uber sprint mode? That must be nasty. I just got the XXI for the first time in GWX . . . ran the English Channel in June 44, then took out 7 escorts and their entire convoy almost within sight of the coast. Still have 5 homing eels left, going destroyer hunting on the way home :arrgh!:

[Raptor1]

XVIII is an XXI without the gigantic batteries but with Uber-sprint mode instead

[Gorshkov]

Hi, guys!

Maybe you know how to restore Walter propulsion on type XVIII U-boat in RFB mod?

[tener]

how do u get this "walter boat" then?

[Dr. Evil]

It was the advent of the American hunter-killer jeep carrier groups that spelled doom for the U-Boat. Thirty knots is nowhere near fast enough to outrun a PBY. The Walthers were doomed, launched or not. They just would have provided a more exciting death. And the Germans couldn't build them half as fast as we would sink them.

Yup. The strategic advantage of the Walter drive would have lasted about a month before the allies would have developed counter-tactics.

Now, the XXI boats, on the other hand...

I've played pretty extensively with both, and I would much rather have a quiet boat with a lot of underwater endurance than a loud, fast boat. Even at 30 knots, most escorts can still outrun you, and at that speed, you're making more than enough noise for them to hear you even at that speed. When playing with the Walter boat, I found myself going deep and creeping along more than I would have liked and wishing it had better underwater performance on batteries. Far as I'm concerned, the turbine is great for intercepting a convoy that you would have otherwise been unable to run down, but not for much else.

[captgeo]

The Walther Boat is offered to you in Career U-Boat when you have done enough patrols (4 or 5) in the IXD2. There is a MOD out there that grants you it at any time, but I can not remember which one it is.

[Pvt. Public]

Hi, guys!

Maybe you know how to restore Walter propulsion on type XVIII U-boat in RFB mod?

been a little while since i last did this, but pretty sure everything needed to tweak it is in the .sim file.
i also remember something about the speed value in the peroxide propulsion field being additive not absolute... as i learned to my surprise when i toggled it on while being depth charged to suddenly find myself going 50 knots.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2cpq24g.jpg

*
The Walther Boat is offered to you in Career U-Boat when you have done enough patrols (4 or 5) in the IXD2. There is a MOD out there that grants you it at any time, but I can not remember which one it is.

Modified XVIII for 1.5 by Xantro.rar ??