Tactical Suggestions Please - Attack Or Wait?

[Elphaba]

Hi.

I was hoping I could ask you all this question and get some idea of how the more experienced Captain would handle the position I've found myself in.

Situation:

1941, Gar class. I deteched what I thought was a lone merchant heading towards me and I put myself in an optimal position. He's heading north to south, and I'm about 10 miles south of his current position and about 1/2 mile to the west - so I'm perpendicular to his course.

Everything seemed okay until Sonar told me warships were detected. Seems I've stumbled onto a lone large troop transport with a warship fore and aft.

I called battle stations and silent running and dived to 100ft and waited - no pinging.

I surfaced and now I'm in the predicatment where I don't know what to do.

The southern most warship is at my 12 o'clock but hasn't seen me. This is due to very large waves. Problem is dawn is now here and at periscope depth my hull is momentarily exposed with every swell.

This brings me to the second problem; The transport is now at my 10 o'clock, but due to the heavy waves I'm NEVER able to get a good stadimeter reading on it. Esp when I'm trying to be really quick at the warship at my 12 o'clock is facing me and it's now about 6am, with a clear moonlight night fading to early dawn.

As it's 1941 I don't have sonar to do any active pinging to try a sonar only based attack...

So what should I do?

I'm thinking and trying to play as if it's real life, but I've paused it and saved it in order to ask you all if you'd help suggest anything.

If it was real I think I'd bug out and either do an end around for the next evening - hoping the waves have subsided or I would just bug out and forget about it - put it down to the fates conspiring (as usual) against me.

However, what little I OCCASSIONALLY see from my attack scope just teases me with an almost perfect setup on a really juicy target.


In my sort of position (if I've been clear enough), what would you do?

Any thoughts, suggestions or similar experiences would be really welcome.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and allow me to post my problem.

Elphaba

[NefariousKoel]

BE MORE AGGRESSIVE!

Sorry, couldn't help with that old SH joke. :lol:

I'd take a shot, myself. If the waves are so bad that I can't get a good range on it, I'd estimate and enter one manually, fire a full spread. As long as I'm relatively satisfied with my speed and AoB estimates I'd be willing to flub a bit with the range on a spread.

If nothing else, you can do an end run if you miss. :smug:

[Zantham]

Forget the stadimeter. Try a Fast-90 shot. With this you don't have to worry about range, only speed and AOB. It sounds like you've lined yourself up perpendicular already so most of the work is done for you (hint when the ship passes in front of you its AOB will be 90 degrees).

Rockin Robbins has a nice tutorial around here somewhere that describes this method very well (Dick O'Kane), its the only method I use actually, its very easy and works well even on long shots.

edit: here it is:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67

[Elphaba]

BE MORE AGGRESSIVE!

Sorry, couldn't help with that old SH joke. :lol:



LOL, Okay, okay...well I don't know the reference, but that's the 2nd thread I've asked for help in and been told to be more aggressive...

LOL

I think I'm seeing a trend...or maybe I should buy a clue? ;)

Thanks for the assist.

Elphaba

[NefariousKoel]

BE MORE AGGRESSIVE!

Sorry, couldn't help with that old SH joke. :lol:


LOL, Okay, okay...well I don't know the reference, but that's the 2nd thread I've asked for help in and been told to be more aggressive...

LOL

I think I'm seeing a trend...or maybe I should buy a clue? ;)

Thanks for the assist.

Elphaba
In SH3, when you would send a patrol report in about how much you've sunk and your current torpedo loadout, you'd often get a reply later on: "Be more aggressive!" That would sometimes happen even after you bagged some huge targets. :lol:

Plus, someone made a great sig pic using a screenshot of a flying sub bug in SH4. It had a US sub flying out of the water, through the air, angling over the beach and the "Be More Aggressive" mantra on it. Absolutely hilarious. I wish I knew who did that - I'd like to see it again.

[ajime]

in stormy waves? don't bother trying to calculate. Just estimate and fire a spread. If you can see the smoke trails you'll probably know the speed of the ship with experience. compare it with the Ship identifier for max speed. Use your wolfy instincts. :p. 100 Meters = 1 degree of angle lead to fire(roughly). Of course this is my method of firing within 500 (Estimated)Meters. :ping:

[gumbeau]

I've actually done all the trigonometry for shooting without range to target. Its pretty simple.

You want you firing tubes perpendicular with target course.

Example: Target is on course 180 degrees. You want to be on a heading of 090 or 270. (you actually have some lee way here...but that is another topic). Get in a spot about 1000 yards from the predicted track of the target perpendicular to him and wait.

Plot his speed as best you can because his speed is the one important factor.

Most importantly, DO NOT put anything into the TDC. You want the torpedo to fire at zero gyro angle (where you are pointing)

Calculate firing angle by taking his speed and add 30%

Example: Target speed is 10 knots. 30 percent of 10 is 3. Firing angle is 13 degrees before Zero bearing. Put you periscope (or watch sound bearings on attack map) on 13 degrees or 347 (depending on which side the target is approaching from). Fire when the part of the ship you want to hit crosses the periscope center wire.

IT IS CRITICAL that the torpedo doors are open with this method. Doors closed means you have to consider the 3 - 5 second door opening time which makes the math more complex.

I've done spreadsheets for firing using this method with doors open and doors closed. Doors Closed requires a range to target however.

Works like a charm. I've got a tutorial written up including training missions I made and firing angle charts that I've let a couple folks use but I've never put them up for public consumption.

If anyone is interested drop me a PM and I'll send it off to you.

I use it and it works and is much easier than using the TDC.

[Penelope_Grey]

OMG another female captain! :D

Welcome to subsim.:up:

[Rockin Robbins]

I've actually done all the trigonometry for shooting without range to target. Its pretty simple.

You want you firing tubes perpendicular with target course.

Example: Target is on course 180 degrees. You want to be on a heading of 090 or 270. (you actually have some lee way here...but that is another topic). Get in a spot about 1000 yards from the predicted track of the target perpendicular to him and wait.

Plot his speed as best you can because his speed is the one important factor.

Most importantly, DO NOT put anything into the TDC. You want the torpedo to fire at zero gyro angle (where you are pointing)

Calculate firing angle by taking his speed and add 30%

Example: Target speed is 10 knots. 30 percent of 10 is 3. Firing angle is 13 degrees before Zero bearing. Put you periscope (or watch sound bearings on attack map) on 13 degrees or 347 (depending on which side the target is approaching from). Fire when the part of the ship you want to hit crosses the periscope center wire.

IT IS CRITICAL that the torpedo doors are open with this method. Doors closed means you have to consider the 3 - 5 second door opening time which makes the math more complex.

I've done spreadsheets for firing using this method with doors open and doors closed. Doors Closed requires a range to target however.

Works like a charm. I've got a tutorial written up including training missions I made and firing angle charts that I've let a couple folks use but I've never put them up for public consumption.

If anyone is interested drop me a PM and I'll send it off to you.

I use it and it works and is much easier than using the TDC.
The lead angle is about double if you're shooting electric as compared with steam torpedoes. Suffice it to say that if you don't take the speed of the torpedo you're shooting into account you'll miss. Simple is good. Too simple is just an easy way to miss!:damn:

Some German torpedoes have three speeds, calling for three different lead angles for the same speed target!:doh:

You are much better served to use the Dick O'Kane method (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67), where we keep the cursed TDC in the dark about all parameters but target speed and AoB at the shoot angle. That way no trig calculations or picking the wrong column off lead angle charts can be used to mess up your setup!:rotfl: The shamed voice of experience speaks!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Let the TDC automatically pick the right lead angle for torpedo and target speed and just sight the target in the crosshairs. This has the additional advantage of letting you individually aim each torpedo for a specific spot on the target, distributing your hits along its length. The Dick O'Kane method (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67) tutorials may be found on page 4 of WernerSobe's Advanced TDC Technique stickied thread.

Disclaimer: If you are using the Dick O'Kane method with SH3/GWX2 you'll find yourself missing astern. This is because the target sees the torpedo track and increases speed to avoid. Add a knot or two (haven't come up with a formula yet) to their speed and hit 'em every time! Targets don't actually have any judgement, they just blindly apply the throttle.

[Quillan]

I'd recommend going to about 40 foot depth. You'll broach, but you'll be deck awash when you do and less likely to be spotted by the enemy than sitting on the surface in daylight. Further, the periscope is less affected by pitch and roll from the sea than the TBT, by a long shot, so this might make things able for a range estimate. If you have the target's course plotted fairly well, you can make a decent range estimate from the sonar tracks yourself. I'd take the shot.

[peabody]

I've actually done all the trigonometry for shooting without range to target. Its pretty simple.


Get in a spot about 1000 yards from the predicted track of the target perpendicular to him and wait.

Plot his speed as best you can because his speed is the one important factor.


Please don't read this wrong Gumbeau, but you are misleading her a bit. And if she doesn't understand the concept then you may totally confuse her. And Elphaba, please don't think I am calling you stupid either, I don't know how much you understand, I have never met you.
Gumbeau, you make the comment that you don't need to know "range to target" and then proceed to tell her to get about 1000 yards from the predicted course. Well, then you now know the approximate "range to target" because you just set it at 1000 yards. Now I totally agree you don't need to know EXACT range to target.

My example, if you are shooting at a merchant ship travelling slow at about 5-7 knots (I picked one from the manual, one of average length about 80m which is about 96 yards.) I don't know where you are from but I use yds not meters etc, but the idea is the same. If you have a torpedo that goes at 46knots (This is where Rockin's comment on torp speed comes in to play) that torp will go about 1500 yards in one minute. (Just quick off the cuff calculation, correct me if I'm wrong) The ship will take approximately 1 minute to go by, and you are 1000 yard away, so in this case if you fire when the bow is at 0 degrees, you are going to hit it because the ship takes one minute to go by but the torp doesn't take one minute to get there. You only need to lead it to spread the shots along the length. But if your torp is slower, like an electric, it won't get there in time, or if the ship is travelling a lot faster 10-12 knots, it won't get there in time because depending on the length of the ship, it will go by in 45 sec and your torp will go 1100 yards if it's a fast one (electrics go slower but I forgot how much and some torps like Rockin says have more than one speed). So even though Gumbeau is giving you good info, other factors come in to play. But I absolutely agree ship speed is very important.
If that ship turns and is 2000 yards away, it all goes out the window.

So I just wanted to add this to show that with experience and an approximate "range to target" it is possible to shoot from the hip. But Range, torp speed, ship speed, AOB all come into play. He has eliminated the range by telling you to get approximately 1000 yds away. He has eliminated AOB by having you place you sub at a 90 degree angle, and if you always use the same speed torpedo that variable is eliminated so that only leaves you to consider ship speed. So he is right, but in real life it is a bit more complicated, he is just trying to make it easier by using experience to position yourself to eliminate most of the variables and use your head to get good shots instead of taking a bad position and try to figure all the variables.
So, I agree with what you say, but feel she needs to understand why it works, because if the ship is zig-zagging or changes direction and by doing that changes "Range" then it will make a difference.

I can't comment on the Dick O'Kane method because I don't know what it is, but you can bet I'm going there right now to find out.

Peabody

[Captain Vlad]

If you can close to within 1000 yards...just fire with no calculations at all. Set the torps to run as shallow as they can, and fire all your forward tubes in a guesstimated spread based on how fast you think the target is going. Make sure and clear any data from the TDC first.

The closer you can get, the better, of course, just make sure the torpedoes have enough distance to arm. 1000 yards is sort of a 'no farther than...' number for eyeball targetting. I personally prefer about 500-600.